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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

How many of your total units don't get Regiment bonuses again?

Ratlings, Ogryn of all flavors, 2/3 of the old "Regimental Advisors"(Officer of the Fleet, Astropath), Valkyries, Commissars, anything Tempestus taken outside of a purely Tempestus Detachment, Tech-Priest Enginseers and their Servitors(although they can take <Forge World> as a keyword but technically don't get the benefits they would from being taken in an AdMech detachment), Ministorum Priests and Crusaders, and all the Psyker options.

So...20 units out of the entire book don't get Regimental bonuses, with 4 of them(Scions, Scion Command Squads, Tempestor Primes, Taurox Primes) only getting them in a pure Tempestus Detachment(which precludes you from taking a large swathe of the book since anything with <Regiment> cannot choose Militarum Tempestus.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:
Who cares that your Primaris Psyker doesn't benefit from Regiment traits.
You get a smite for 46 points. And as a bonus he can give a unit and invul save or -1 to hit.

Not in the same turn he can't. He can only cast a single power a turn, but can know up to 3.

Any army would LOVE to be able to get that for so little points.
Heck give it T1 1W. I dont care.

Your completely oblivious to how good is it to have cheap units.

And you're completely oblivious to the fact that as nice as these "cheap units" are, they come with significant restrictions.

I think Primaris Psyker are balanced good enough with the Smite nerf.

Nah, because everyone suffers now. So 100 pt models or even 400 pt models are no better at smiting than these guys. IG can afford to stack these guys in and take a chance, because they have nothing invested.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

How many of your total units don't get Regiment bonuses again?

Ratlings, Ogryn of all flavors, 2/3 of the old "Regimental Advisors"(Officer of the Fleet, Astropath), Valkyries, Commissars, anything Tempestus taken outside of a purely Tempestus Detachment, Tech-Priest Enginseers and their Servitors(although they can take <Forge World> as a keyword but technically don't get the benefits they would from being taken in an AdMech detachment), Ministorum Priests and Crusaders, and all the Psyker options.

So...20 units out of the entire book don't get Regimental bonuses, with 4 of them(Scions, Scion Command Squads, Tempestor Primes, Taurox Primes) only getting them in a pure Tempestus Detachment(which precludes you from taking a large swathe of the book since anything with <Regiment> cannot choose Militarum Tempestus.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:
Who cares that your Primaris Psyker doesn't benefit from Regiment traits.
You get a smite for 46 points. And as a bonus he can give a unit and invul save or -1 to hit.

Not in the same turn he can't. He can only cast a single power a turn, but can know up to 3.

Any army would LOVE to be able to get that for so little points.
Heck give it T1 1W. I dont care.

Your completely oblivious to how good is it to have cheap units.

And you're completely oblivious to the fact that as nice as these "cheap units" are, they come with significant restrictions.

What significant restriction does a Primaris Psyker have?
He has no penalties to casting smite. He gets no regiment trait, but none of them would be a major bonus (if anything at all) anyway. Hes weak but a character so safe for the most part.

Martel732 wrote:
Nah, because everyone suffers now. So 100 pt models or even 400 pt models are no better at smiting than these guys. IG can afford to stack these guys in and take a chance, because they have nothing invested.

They suffer because spamming smite isn't a reliable tactic anymore. So psykers that where only used as smite-spammer have lost a ton of value. Yeah, IG has access to the cheapest smite-spam on the game. And thats shouldn't be because is not like IG is a psyker powerhouse out there, but I don't think is such a big deal.

 Galas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Nah, because everyone suffers now. So 100 pt models or even 400 pt models are no better at smiting than these guys. IG can afford to stack these guys in and take a chance, because they have nothing invested.

They suffer because spamming smite isn't a reliable tactic anymore. So psykers that where only used as smite-spammer have lost a ton of value. Yeah, IG has access to the cheapest smite-spam on the game. And thats shouldn't be because is not like IG is a psyker powerhouse out there, but I don't think is such a big deal.

3e smite of the turn still has more then 50% of going off. Bringing 8 smites got nerfed. bringing 3-4 is still perfectly doable.

Oh hey, here's another GT with AM dominating! Oh wait, no that's Chaos with four in the top 8 and with one AM in the top 12. And it was the GW GT at that, which is as close to book rules/scenarios as you can get. Face it, you guys whinging about guard are playing the game from 3 months ago and need to git gud.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/7yg5tl/results_from_the_gw_40k_gt_heat_3/

Martel732 wrote:
Nah, because everyone suffers now. So 100 pt models or even 400 pt models are no better at smiting than these guys. IG can afford to stack these guys in and take a chance, because they have nothing invested.

Those "100 point models or even 400 point models" might not be any better at smiting than these guys...but they can do things beyond just casting a Smite a turn.
Your Blood Angels Librarians can cast 2 powers in a Psychic Phase, correct?

I know my Raven Guard ones can--and they don't have their own special Psychic Powers intended for them.

 Ordana wrote:

3e smite of the turn still has more then 50% of going off. Bringing 8 smites got nerfed. bringing 3-4 is still perfectly doable.

And this is where the problem comes in. 3-4 of them is basically you fielding a Supreme Command Detachment of nothing but Primaris Psykers.

Why?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

3e smite of the turn still has more then 50% of going off. Bringing 8 smites got nerfed. bringing 3-4 is still perfectly doable.

And this is where the problem comes in. 3-4 of them is basically you fielding a Supreme Command Detachment of nothing but Primaris Psykers.

Why?

Because they are cheap so you can easily fill a Supreme Command with them?

I mean, the answer to Why? is basically the entire point we are making. gak being cheap is a big bonus.

 Ordana wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

3e smite of the turn still has more then 50% of going off. Bringing 8 smites got nerfed. bringing 3-4 is still perfectly doable.

And this is where the problem comes in. 3-4 of them is basically you fielding a Supreme Command Detachment of nothing but Primaris Psykers.

Why?

Because they are cheap so you can easily fill a Supreme Command with them?

I mean, the answer to Why? is basically the entire point we are making. gak being cheap is a big bonus.

When they have diminishing returns, what is the point?

This is what you keep deflecting with. You keep trying to pretend that "gak being cheap" is you making a point. It's not. It's you trying to deflect from WHY would someone ever take a full Supreme Command Detachment of nothing but Primaris Psykers?

Come to think of it, the majority of times you've been in Guard related threads has just been arguing that "things are just too cheap" or things of that nature. You never actually add anything to the discussion, you just keep fanning the flames and agreeing with people like Martel.

RogueApiary wrote:
Oh hey, here's another GT with AM dominating! Oh wait, no that's Chaos with four in the top 8 and with one AM in the top 12. And it was the GW GT at that, which is as close to book rules/scenarios as you can get. Face it, you guys whinging about guard are playing the game from 3 months ago and need to git gud.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/7yg5tl/results_from_the_gw_40k_gt_heat_3/

I agree that many people exagerattes how powerfull Imperial Guard is, when theres bigger fish in the pool now. But that doesn't mean IG doesn't needs rebalancing. Every faction needs it constantly. Or are we assuming GW has become perfect at balancing? Theres units in IG that are more powerfull than what they should, theres other that are weaker that what they should, and that happens with all other armies.

RogueApiary wrote:
Oh hey, here's another GT with AM dominating! Oh wait, no that's Chaos with four in the top 8 and with one AM in the top 12. And it was the GW GT at that, which is as close to book rules/scenarios as you can get. Face it, you guys whinging about guard are playing the game from 3 months ago and need to git gud.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/7yg5tl/results_from_the_gw_40k_gt_heat_3/

By that logic no need to nerf reapers either as top eldar list finsihed behind a guard list

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

3e smite of the turn still has more then 50% of going off. Bringing 8 smites got nerfed. bringing 3-4 is still perfectly doable.

And this is where the problem comes in. 3-4 of them is basically you fielding a Supreme Command Detachment of nothing but Primaris Psykers.

Why?

Because they are cheap so you can easily fill a Supreme Command with them?

I mean, the answer to Why? is basically the entire point we are making. gak being cheap is a big bonus.

When they have diminishing returns, what is the point?

This is what you keep deflecting with. You keep trying to pretend that "gak being cheap" is you making a point. It's not. It's you trying to deflect from WHY would someone ever take a full Supreme Command Detachment of nothing but Primaris Psykers?

Come to think of it, the majority of times you've been in Guard related threads has just been arguing that "things are just too cheap" or things of that nature. You never actually add anything to the discussion, you just keep fanning the flames and agreeing with people like Martel.

Yes, why would an army who's only way of dealing with things being 'shoot it, shoot it more' (something they do very well mind you) want the ability to deal wounds that ignore the majority of defenses so they don't spend all their firepower shooting at something that shrugs it off... Being able to deal mortal wounds is a great asset for Guard armies.

And yes I keep harping on about how cheap Guard stuff is because that is the 'problem' that the codex has, many (most) of the units are to cheap and therefor to cost effective.
What Guard does is in and of itself not the problem. Its just how much they can do it for how little points.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
As previously discussed over MANY PAGES: 5ppm re-balances Infantry Squads into line with Conscripts and Veterans. MANY Guard players have said it doesn't even do anything to hurt the army. So yeah, hyperbole all the way.

Many have said it doesn't do anything to hurt their army. Many have said otherwise. Factually what it will do is cost every guard list between 60 and 120 extra points. You can look at how Guard is doing in the competitive setting right now with 4 point infantry and gauge it from there. They're not going to improve. This isn't a matter of opinion. If you have 10 dollars and take away 2 dollars, you have less money. You are not better off. You're not breaking even.

The degree to which guard will be worse off we'll see of course. Guard was super strong when it first came out because most other armies were index only. With each new codex guard becomes less and less impressive comparatively and guard's "bag of tricks" becomes smaller and smaller. Conscript blobs and morale invulnerability got cut. Outflanking 3 units of vehicles got cut. Replenishing valhallan troops got cut. Cheap psykers got cut. Vehicles taking cover got cut. Guard doesn't really have tricks to make them competitive.

No one who claims it actually hurts their army has presented anything other than complaints ranging "but 7th edition" to "BUT ELDAR!" and no math or any other evidence that it actually hurts the army.

I don't think we need much math to illustrate that increasing a unit's point cost hurts an army, isn't it self evident? Now, we can discuss how much it hurts an army, but there should be no arguing about whether or not it hurts - it obviously does. If mono-guard is borderline competitive, which I will grant is not a given but it's not like they are crushing tournaments either, too many more pushes in the nerf direction may end them in a bad place without actually fixing the issues with Imperial soup. A small nerf to the most important unit in an army, this is infantry for Guard, may be a much bigger nerf to the faction as a whole than is immediately apparent.

So far, I haven't heard an argument how 5ppm Guardsman are overpriced, especially one that shows math and supports their argument. You can find my comparisons to other factions mainline infantry, and a PPM breakdown, earlier in this thread/my post history.

As it stands, the only argument that's been presented is "I'm going to have less points available in my list" - no feth; that happens to EVERY army when their units get increased in points cost (rebalanced). The inverse also happens when armies have their units points cost reduced (again, rebalanced).

Per your argument, we shouldn't increase the points cost of Dark Reapers - as Eldar will have less points to play with; this means the faction will be entirely unplayable. /s


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
Oh hey, here's another GT with AM dominating! Oh wait, no that's Chaos with four in the top 8 and with one AM in the top 12. And it was the GW GT at that, which is as close to book rules/scenarios as you can get. Face it, you guys whinging about guard are playing the game from 3 months ago and need to git gud.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/7yg5tl/results_from_the_gw_40k_gt_heat_3/

By that logic no need to nerf reapers either as top eldar list finsihed behind a guard list

Are the Wyrdvane Psyker squad going to get a generous points decrease, so that they will become viable?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
Please tell me how losing the equivalent of a Basilisk in points somehow manages to not significantly hurt a Guard army. That's a 12.5% drop in my LVO list's lethal firepower. That's far from a small change.

If you're running 6 Infantry Squads it's 60 points more to field the same squads. I don't have the Guard book in front of me, but how much exactly is a Bassie and it's gear?

Nobody runs just 6 infantry squads in pure Guard unless they like losing games. I brought 8 to LVO and I was down to less than thirty infantry in every game but one by turn three. Thats barely enough to hold backfield objectives much less contest/capture midfield. I clearly can't cut down on the number of infantry when I lose 80 points which means it has to come out of the firepower side of the equation.

Firepower which was barely adequate enough to get close wins and losses against armies with -1 and completely useless against the army with -2. My only blowout games were against a dude who had an almost literal random collection of models because his army got stolen and a AL player who didn't understand Ratlings and Scout Sentinels would force him to infiltrate in his own deployment zone because he didn't bring Nurglings. Even then, the berzerker blobs still managed to reach two tanks thanks to their -1 and the terrain.

I think guard are fine. Maybe raise infantry to 5 to remove the glaring example of stupidity.

BUT!

I just think everything else sucks.
Marines are terrible can barely wound stuff and when I do they have a decent save anyway and then I get shot off the table turn.

I still haven't used my Ad-mech much but from what I hear they suck too.

Everyone says tau suck but that's the guy that keeps shooting me off the table

I just think guard was well written and everything else was just, not...

Tau really aren't bad. The primary complaint about them is that they only really have one viable build (fire warrior spam)

 daedalus wrote:
Tau really aren't bad. The primary complaint about them is that they only really have one viable build (fire warrior spam)

Tau compete with crons for worst army currently iirc.

 Wolfblade wrote:

Tau compete with crons for worst army currently iirc.

Totally. And Orks are horrible too. Like, so horrible that they'd simply never place even in the top 20 at a tournament. Let alone top 10. In fact, some people (in this thread even) have said they were worse than Tau before.

Madness.

 daedalus wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Tau compete with crons for worst army currently iirc.

Totally. And Orks are horrible too. Like, so horrible that they'd simply never place even in the top 20 at a tournament. Let alone top 10. In fact, some people (in this thread even) have said they were worse than Tau before.

Madness.

I'm not contesting the skill of a player able to guide their army, I'm contesting that "tau aren't really bad".

 daedalus wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Tau compete with crons for worst army currently iirc.

Totally. And Orks are horrible too. Like, so horrible that they'd simply never place even in the top 20 at a tournament. Let alone top 10. In fact, some people (in this thread even) have said they were worse than Tau before.

Madness.

They just got two of the top 8 at the latest Heat of the GW GT...

RogueApiary wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Tau compete with crons for worst army currently iirc.

Totally. And Orks are horrible too. Like, so horrible that they'd simply never place even in the top 20 at a tournament. Let alone top 10. In fact, some people (in this thread even) have said they were worse than Tau before.

Madness.

They just got two of the top 8 at the latest Heat of the GW GT...

Well, tau being terrible is because its a highly polerized index with a handful of choices that are honestly too good at what the do and could easily spiral out of control with <sept> abilieis if they don't get nerfed otherwise (not to mention the commander being an incredible weapon platfrom, and horrible at actually commanding), while the vast majority of the codex is outright unplayable.

I mean, you think predators have it bad? hammerheads have about half the firepower, and cost more. skyrays got six shots the entire game, who require to go through hoops to even use them, and even then they are not very good shot to begin with. lets not get started on the battlesuits.

Firewarriors are good, but overshadowed by the incredible gun drones. commanders are great, but not at thier supposed role but instead someone else's role, vespid and stealth suits are decent-everything else is about as good as 6th edition possessed.


And anyone who ever claimed orks were worse than tau, clearly had no idea what either tau or orks are capable of in the indcies.




As for the Heat results. I REALLY what to see these lists.
Orks taking 2nd and 3rd was a shocker. a single list getting 5th or so would be logical, but this result is above expectations. I REALLY want to know what they came up with.

The chaos dominating the top 8, was expected. chaos soup has access to 3 codcies who each is rather good on its own (I assume TS were not in yet on this turny?), has some great options, plus they have decent cross-synergy, and lots of FW support who contains a few gems.
I wonder how the soup lists actually went though.

The total lack of eldar is...surprising. best eldar at 13th. I expected more, they got a few very powerful units and overall strong options.

Imperium seems to be having a rough time on first glance, but on a second glance they got the first "pure" army list (ravenguard at 9th) and quite a few other pures in the lineup. the soup has trouble supporting each other, but it seems the parts are there. maybe with custodians coming into the mix now they will see a rise.
Naturally, as we all know, admech is not part of the IoM soup, as its just not good enough. that codex seriusly needs a buff. GK are also on the weak side, but anyone actually reading the meta would have known getting a handful could be good, as GK are very effective against the currently dominant daemons. fitting for a force that is supposed to be a specialist.
IoM also has imperial knights, space wolves and deathwatch on the way. each of these could bring them up to speed.

Custodes were legal so I assume TS were aswell.

 BoomWolf wrote:
GK are also on the weak side, but anyone actually reading the meta would have known getting a handful could be good, as GK are very effective against the currently dominant daemons. fitting for a force that is supposed to be a specialist.

Alright, let me tell you something Boomwolf. You have no concept of GK as an army. Who in their fething right mind, thinks spending a MINIMUM of 210+ points is worth one turn of 6 mortal wounds? 6 conditional mortal wounds with a 12 inch range? You are absolutely nuts if you think that is a good return.

Also, gonna be a little aggressive on this, I hope you get a codex as good the GK you deserve it.

Ah, let's all keep in mind RULE #1 (Be Polite) when posting, OK?

 BoomWolf wrote:
Naturally, as we all know, admech is not part of the IoM soup, as its just not good enough. that codex seriusly needs a buff. GK are also on the weak side, but anyone actually reading the meta would have known getting a handful could be good, as GK are very effective against the currently dominant daemons. fitting for a force that is supposed to be a specialist.
IoM also has imperial knights, space wolves and deathwatch on the way. each of these could bring them up to speed.

If it wasn't for Guard being so much of an outlier I would probably soup AdMech into my Custodes.
Cheap, good basic troops. Good long range power with either Onogers or Kastellens. and a 5+ regain CP relic. The main sticking point is their HQ choices are either cheap and useless(enginseer) or expensive (Dominus), and Guard being Guard.

 Alpharius wrote:
Ah, let's all keep in mind RULE #1 (Be Polite) when posting, OK?

Yea I guess wishing the fate of the GK codex on others was a bit much.

 Quickjager wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
GK are also on the weak side, but anyone actually reading the meta would have known getting a handful could be good, as GK are very effective against the currently dominant daemons. fitting for a force that is supposed to be a specialist.

Alright, let me tell you something Boomwolf. You have no concept of GK as an army. Who in their fething right mind, thinks spending a MINIMUM of 210+ points is worth one turn of 6 mortal wounds? 6 conditional mortal wounds with a 12 inch range? You are absolutely nuts if you think that is a good return.

Also, gonna be a little aggressive on this, I hope you get a codex as good the GK you deserve it.

I got thousand sons as my first codex, aint perfect, but pretty darn good. (mostly is a strong codex, but not the direction I'd like it to go.)
Next is tau, I'm not optimistic about it.


Anyways, GK are not a stand-alone army. they never were, they never intended to have been. the only times they existed as a codex were either when allies were a thing, or when they were the same codex as inqusition and assassins. and even then it was an eyebrow raised that got pushed up by absurd number efficiency rather than actually living to their roles.

Now, as a tool to tactically insert into list a handful of to shore up specific needs as it first your list-they can work.
They also are not a source of "spending a MINIMUM of 210+ points is worth one turn of 6 mortal wounds? 6 conditional mortal wounds with a 12 inch range?". if that's all you see in them, you lack vision.
They got some CC power with force weapons all around, and rerolling all CC wounds on deamons means they can put the hurt on daemons, they can put the hurt on daemon engines, and all daemon-marine units. while not being slobs against other units.
They can DS anything, and that's something most armies either pay premium points or CPs for.
And yes, they got the daemon-killing smite. who is the outright bane of high quality daemon units, who are mostly close-range themselves and I can assure you the dominant chaos soup was running quite a bit.

So yea, they ARE a decent counter-pick allied force when you know chaos is dominant, if you pick the right units in their codex to compliment the rest of your army rather than going hogwash and trying to milk raw numbers. they are non-viable as a stand alone force, but they got uses in small numbers.

All that being said-the FIRST thing I said about them, is that they are on the weak side. so, its almost like you are going aggressive on me without bothering to truly read what I said.