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 hippyjr wrote:
Fire warrior squads are 6-12, so 60-120 warriors in a cadre (plus support).

Up to six squads of twelve warriors, so capping at 72 without allowing transport space for drone units.

I got the impression they were aiming for ~100 mixed infantry and specialists/suits in total with the way the books compare them to guard company sizes - I just split the difference with the original estimate half firewarriors and half suits/drones/etc.

A.T. wrote:

 hippyjr wrote:
Fire warrior squads are 6-12, so 60-120 warriors in a cadre (plus support).

Up to six squads of twelve warriors, so capping at 72 without allowing transport space for drone units.

I got the impression they were aiming for ~100 mixed infantry and specialists/suits in total with the way the books compare them to guard company sizes - I just split the difference with the original estimate half firewarriors and half suits/drones/etc.

Wow completely made up 10 squads in my head.

Stupidly small planetary invasion either way though

 hippyjr wrote:
Stupidly small planetary invasion either way though

TBH the whole thing sounds like Shas'O Bilk'O trying to justify the deployment of a dozen new experimental suits to secure a backwater colony.

"Yes sir, twenty hives all at once. New suit went straight through the minefield, and the bunkers, and the nukes. Not a scratch sir, burnt clear through the outer wall. Fought them hand to hand sir, space marines, but we beat them back. Prisoners? No sir, evacuated the whole planet they did..."

It's so hard to decide between Centurions, Dreadknights, Wards "Ultramarines are the best" lore, Cawl, Girlyman coming back, Goto's stuff and most of Khaines deaths.


I'm going to go with the return of the Wulfen rubbish. Made it seem like most of the Space Wolves are Wulfen already instead of it being a rare thing.

Generally all of matt wards fluff is pretty bad, with exception to the necron fluff, they needed to have more variation so as to let players to make their own stuff and he came up with decent fluff for it.

Bringing back the primarchs, they already have 30k, keep them away from 40k. That or the Ork fluff, can't stand it.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I have a great dislike of;

-Anything Primaris.
-Grey Knight Baby Carrier
-The Marines Inside Marines Centurions

None of those were needed in the lore, and while I like the Primaris models, they should have just been the new scale of Space Marine. I seriously just dislike the Centurions since in the lore they do not fill any gaps in the army. Anything they do is done better by a different unit, shooting? Actual Devastators or Dreadnoughts. Melee? Terminators or once again, Dreadnoughts. They were introduced just to sell us crap new models, and make zero sense. The Grey Knight baby carrier is an absolute travesty of a model and bit of fluff. It is a crap stain that just adds to the growing skid mark that is the Grey Knights lore.

The Primarchs are needed in counter to the Daemon Primarchs coming back, which I like, I want to take Primarch skulls for Khorne, he'd be very pleased at that. But the ones that are dead SHOULD DARN TOOTING STAY DEAD.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Bringing back the primarchs, they already have 30k, keep them away from 40k. That or the Ork fluff, can't stand it.

Who the hell doesn't like the Orks. You have no sense of humour or whimsy. The Orks are great fun.

I do, and it may that the Orks humour's not my thing, maybe?

Are you the edgy type

I'd go with Imperial Knights being the worst lore addition. Someone decided it'd be a good idea to add pseudo-Mechwarriors to the game because Titans were too large and expensive, but had to shoehorn them in as existing for...reasons.

No? I don't know how hard of a concept it is to grasp, I don't like Orks.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I'd go with Imperial Knights being the worst lore addition. Someone decided it'd be a good idea to add pseudo-Mechwarriors to the game because Titans were too large and expensive, but had to shoehorn them in as existing for...reasons.

Imperial Knights were in EPIC, they've been around for most of the life of GW. They just didn't sell them in 40k, its not like they came out of nowhere just to make money.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
No? I don't know how hard of a concept it is to grasp, I don't like Orks.

I'm just joking lol

Do the clones of Ferrus have his "soul"?

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I have a great dislike of;

-Anything Primaris.
-Grey Knight Baby Carrier
-The Marines Inside Marines Centurions

None of those were needed in the lore, and while I like the Primaris models, they should have just been the new scale of Space Marine. I seriously just dislike the Centurions since in the lore they do not fill any gaps in the army. Anything they do is done better by a different unit, shooting? Actual Devastators or Dreadnoughts. Melee? Terminators or once again, Dreadnoughts. They were introduced just to sell us crap new models, and make zero sense. The Grey Knight baby carrier is an absolute travesty of a model and bit of fluff. It is a crap stain that just adds to the growing skid mark that is the Grey Knights lore.

The Primarchs are needed in counter to the Daemon Primarchs coming back, which I like, I want to take Primarch skulls for Khorne, he'd be very pleased at that. But the ones that are dead SHOULD DARN TOOTING STAY DEAD.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Bringing back the primarchs, they already have 30k, keep them away from 40k. That or the Ork fluff, can't stand it.

Who the hell doesn't like the Orks. You have no sense of humour or whimsy. The Orks are great fun.

What? I said Primaris haha. I really don't mind the occasional Primarch popping up.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I have a great dislike of;

-Anything Primaris.
-Grey Knight Baby Carrier
-The Marines Inside Marines Centurions

None of those were needed in the lore, and while I like the Primaris models, they should have just been the new scale of Space Marine. I seriously just dislike the Centurions since in the lore they do not fill any gaps in the army. Anything they do is done better by a different unit, shooting? Actual Devastators or Dreadnoughts. Melee? Terminators or once again, Dreadnoughts. They were introduced just to sell us crap new models, and make zero sense. The Grey Knight baby carrier is an absolute travesty of a model and bit of fluff. It is a crap stain that just adds to the growing skid mark that is the Grey Knights lore.

The Primarchs are needed in counter to the Daemon Primarchs coming back, which I like, I want to take Primarch skulls for Khorne, he'd be very pleased at that. But the ones that are dead SHOULD DARN TOOTING STAY DEAD.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Bringing back the primarchs, they already have 30k, keep them away from 40k. That or the Ork fluff, can't stand it.

Who the hell doesn't like the Orks. You have no sense of humour or whimsy. The Orks are great fun.

What? I said Primaris haha. I really don't mind the occasional Primarch popping up.

lol my bad.

even the Primaris I think we should give GW a chance on them, give it a few years and maybe they'll manage to make em seem really cool. or maybe they won't and yeah it'll just be a "space mariens +1"

Most of the stuff from Rogue Trader was garbage by today's standards, regardless of how old neckbeards see it. Between them, and hipsters trying to pretend it was 'amazing', it was actually awful.

I remember 5th edition grey knights to be quite bad in the fluff if you read it literarly, and not just as very hyperbole. One saving grace is that the grey knights used to trade with necrons in order to get 'mazes' to trap demons in, and other neat details. But the GK over all where the most perpfect of all the perfectes.

Also, one of the 5th edition necrons has a mini model of the universe where they can destroy any planet by destroying the planet on the model. Terra anyone? :p

 Niiai wrote:
I remember 5th edition grey knights to be quite bad in the fluff if you read it literarly, and not just as very hyperbole. One saving grace is that the grey knights used to trade with necrons in order to get 'mazes' to trap demons in, and other neat details. But the GK over all where the most perpfect of all the perfectes.

Also, one of the 5th edition necrons has a mini model of the universe where they can destroy any planet by destroying the planet on the model. Terra anyone? :p

Yeah, after the Daemonhunters Codex was split up, I haven't found any of the Grey Knights fluff to be good. I loved their depiction in the Daemonhunters Codex, still my favorite army I have ever played.

 john27 wrote:
Generally all of matt wards fluff is pretty bad, with exception to the necron fluff, they needed to have more variation so as to let players to make their own stuff and he came up with decent fluff for it.

A fair amount of people seem to disagree with that.

pm713 wrote:

 john27 wrote:
Generally all of matt wards fluff is pretty bad, with exception to the necron fluff, they needed to have more variation so as to let players to make their own stuff and he came up with decent fluff for it.

A fair amount of people seem to disagree with that.

sure, but by and large he's right that necrons have beniffited from the 5th edition re-write.

Tyranids. /thread

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Most of the stuff from Rogue Trader was garbage by today's standards, regardless of how old neckbeards see it. Between them, and hipsters trying to pretend it was 'amazing', it was actually awful.

It was fairly tongue in cheek awful though, and with a few subtle bits that not everyone would pick up on. The 'sister sin' image for instance (and quite possibly the entire existence of the sisters of battle) was a political joke that would be completely missed by anyone born in the last 30-40 years.

All the Newcron stuff. Not that it's objectively bad (Tomb Kings in Space is actually quite a cool concept IMO), but that it overwrote some of the creepiest, most atmospheric, pants-wettingly-cosmic-horror-humans-are-as-mere-insects fluff GW has ever produced.

Duskweaver wrote:
All the Newcron stuff. Not that it's objectively bad (Tomb Kings in Space is actually quite a cool concept IMO), but that it overwrote some of the creepiest, most atmospheric, pants-wettingly-cosmic-horror-humans-are-as-mere-insects fluff GW has ever produced.

This. It also made the Necrons far too Human, their intentions are wholly relatable. Not only did we see some of the best background erased, but we also saw a glut of horrid models. The 3rd edition Necron range were uncluttered and looked practical, which for a machine race made sense. The 5th edition models are idiotic, a machine driving a machine while pointing to fire.

The Monolith worked to spread Terror as it looked so alien, it didn't look like a machine, but more a building or object.

Now it no doubt has a driver... who is also pointing, while wearing a silly headpiece, because Tomb Kings in Space!!!

Worst background is anything touched by Matt Ward. He tried too hard to make it like a Saturday morning cartoon. 40k has a long tradition of being a satirical piece influenced by the political landscape of UK in the 80's.

Yeah, I just looked up the Necrons as they are sold currently - other than the Warriors, everything looks rather different. I remember some models having cloaks and whatnot, but not so much decoration.

Guess they really wanted to push the Tomb Kings connection?

Anyways, speaking of bad lore, didn't the Tau (?) and Swolves (?) fight underwater at some point with screw-driven Landraiders or something?

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I'd go with Imperial Knights being the worst lore addition. Someone decided it'd be a good idea to add pseudo-Mechwarriors to the game because Titans were too large and expensive, but had to shoehorn them in as existing for...reasons.

Imperial Knights have been around for ages. Maybe actually look up the history of them before making posts like this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
It's so hard to decide between Centurions, Dreadknights, Wards "Ultramarines are the best" lore, Cawl, Girlyman coming back, Goto's stuff and most of Khaines deaths.


I'm going to go with the return of the Wulfen rubbish. Made it seem like most of the Space Wolves are Wulfen already instead of it being a rare thing.

Would you rather the Marine line stagnate and get nothing new? I get the Dreadknight is pretty awful without some major green stuff work, but Centurions are requiring super little effort to make look decent.

Duskweaver wrote:
All the Newcron stuff. Not that it's objectively bad (Tomb Kings in Space is actually quite a cool concept IMO), but that it overwrote some of the creepiest, most atmospheric, pants-wettingly-cosmic-horror-humans-are-as-mere-insects fluff GW has ever produced.

Maybe but Old 'crons lacked personality, which in a game that is suppsoed to be all about "your dudes" is a problem. Which brings me to a point as to what I consider the worst lore in 40k as a general rule...


factions whose background demands a single paint job. Grey Knights and Space Wolves being the worst offenders. When the entire purpose of a table top mini game is to paint a army up as your personal army, giving any of your armies a single "this is the correct paint job" is IMHO a horriable writing sin. That said I think GW mostly realizes this, hence the various shield host colour schemes among the Custodes. which was a pleasent suprise. and offers up all sorts of possiabiulities

BrianDavion wrote:

Duskweaver wrote:
All the Newcron stuff. Not that it's objectively bad (Tomb Kings in Space is actually quite a cool concept IMO), but that it overwrote some of the creepiest, most atmospheric, pants-wettingly-cosmic-horror-humans-are-as-mere-insects fluff GW has ever produced.

Maybe but Old 'crons lacked personality, which in a game that is suppsoed to be all about "your dudes" is a problem. Which brings me to a point as to what I consider the worst lore in 40k as a general rule...

Except this game is a wargame, not a RPG. The fact they are "your dudes" is irrelevant. They are just meat...er, metal for the grinder.
You also missed the point about necrons - its not about them, its about how people are going to deal with them. Its a horror story, and they're the monster.

Not to mention they got rid of one of the most disturbing aspects of necron lore, and that was the flayed one.
In 3rd ed, in one of the white dwarf articles I believe, it elaborated on their origin - they are necrons who remembered who they were due to a bug and wanted to return to the flesh, and were gradually driven insane by their failure to do so.
Now they are just robots cursed by a god to be hungry. Which is lame. I find existential crisis to be much more disturbing than contrived space magic.

The thing about 3rd ed necrons is that most of their best lore comes from outside of the codex, something which I think was the case for most armies back then. If you want to read some really good stuff you had to go looking for it, instead of relying on the codex like you can nowadays.

BrianDavion wrote:
Maybe but Old 'crons lacked personality, which in a game that is suppsoed to be all about "your dudes" is a problem.

They could have added some potential for personalising individual armies without destroying 90% of the faction's background. Customisable C'tan, for example. Or character-level Pariahs who suffer nightmares of their former human lives and so are driven to lead necron armies to hunt down their former loved ones. Stuff that expanded on the 3rd edition fluff, rather than retconning it.

Also, Tyranid players have always been fine playing an army that "lacks personality", so I'm not even convinced it was a problem that needed solving. Honestly, I think Oldcrons did the "faceless horde of cosmic horror" theme better justice than the Tyranids have ever managed.

factions whose background demands a single paint job. Grey Knights and Space Wolves being the worst offenders.

I agree with this 100%. In my headcanon, the official blue-grey scheme for the SW is just how Ragnar Blackmane's great company happens to look. Other great companies might wear entirely different colour schemes (and Logan Grimnar's wear the original VI Legion colours with the darker grey and red detailing).