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Person A: I think they should make some models of Orks possessed by Daemons! (or whatever)
Person B: According to the background, Orks can't get possessed by Daemons.
Person A: But they could just change the background!
Person B: Yes, but I like the background and don't really want them to do that.
Person A: But they could just change the background! So you're wrong for not liking the same things as me.
Does that about sum it up?
Except that fluff/BL includes parts that can be enterpreted as 'Orks can be possessed...but such weaklings don't last as they makes good sport for rest of Boyz'.
Anyway, for Emperor's sake! Imperium is xenophobic, ignorant, stagnant dystopia knee-deep in senseless beliefs and non-understood rituals. Even if female SMs are possible 'physically'- are they possible 'culturally' without total retcon?
PS Given SW situation - they ESPECIALLY in need of keeping fenrissian women protected, fertile and procreating, not culled in SM trials - unless they want to follow Krieg's example of course.
PS And just for general rant - diversity demands go far these days at expense of common sense. Like demands 'there must be people of colour' in representations of medieval Northern Europe (and not meaning 'where's gypsies?') or political gender-based quotas.
I don't get the "the base is mostly men so they wan male models arguments". Note I'm against changing the status quo. Personally I went to great lengths to aquire decent female models from Victoria Miniatures for a mixed gender Imperialis Militia battalion, because it makes sense in the fluff. Women are often seen in direct combat roles in the background outside of the sisters of battle (Gaunts Ghosts is my favorite example of that). So promote women in 40k sure, but do it without breaking with the established background.
“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors
Anyway, for Emperor's sake! Imperium is xenophobic, ignorant, stagnant dystopia knee-deep in senseless beliefs and non-understood rituals. Even if female SMs are possible 'physically'- are they possible 'culturally' without total retcon?
Imperium has never been depicted as particularly sexist, nor should it be. It is quite different thing for them to be depicted as bigoted towards fictional space aliens, because those do not really exist, than against people who are actually present in the playerbase. Space marine limitation has always been depicted as technical, not cultural, and if that limitation remains, that should also remain as the reasoning.
PS And just for general rant - diversity demands go far these days at expense of common sense. Like demands 'there must be people of colour' in representations of medieval Northern Europe (and not meaning 'where's gypsies?') or political gender-based quotas.
Legend of Sir Morien (13th century) wrote:
He was all black, even as I tell ye: his head, his body, and his hands were all black, saving only his teeth. His shield and his armour were even those of a Moor, and black as a raven…
Had they not heard him call upon God no man had dared face him, deeming that he was the devil or one of his fellows out of hell, for that his steed was so great, and he was taller even than Sir Lancelot, and black withal, as I said afore…
When the Moor heard these words he laughed with heart and mouth (his teeth were white as chalk, otherwise was he altogether black)…
You know Sir Morien was conceived in the South of Spain with a Moor princess when his father Anglovale was searching for Lancelot, don't you?. He wasnt from or wasnt living in the northern parts of europe until he did go there searching for his father.
And, even then, is not like those knights are real historical characters. (Not gonna enter in the whole female space marines thing, i said what I wanted to say, just want to give context to Sir Morien)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/03 22:55:24
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Galas wrote: You know Sir Morien was conceived in the South of Spain with a Moor princess when his father Anglovale was searching for Lancelot, don't you?. He wasnt from or wasnt living in the northern parts of europe until he did go there searching for his father.
So he wasn't in the northern Europe until he went there? But he went there. And then he became a Knight of the Round Table.
And, even then, is not like those knights are real historical characters.
But it was plausible enough story for the people at those times.
There were black people in northern Europe in the middle ages. Obviously not terriibly many, but they existed. So if there are some black people in a period drama, it is not PC revisionism gone mad, it is being accurate.
Galas wrote: You know Sir Morien was conceived in the South of Spain with a Moor princess when his father Anglovale was searching for Lancelot, don't you?. He wasnt from or wasnt living in the northern parts of europe until he did go there searching for his father.
So he wasn't in the northern Europe until he went there? But he went there. And then he became a Knight of the Round Table.
And, even then, is not like those knights are real historical characters.
But it was plausible enough story for the people at those times.
There were black people in northern Europe in the middle ages. Obviously not terriibly many, but they existed. So if there are some black people in a period drama, it is not PC revisionism gone mad, it is being accurate.
keep in mind the referance I think is mostly to a supposed scandal in video games where Kingdom Come: Deliverance features only white characters. the useal PC crowd are complaining about the lack of diversity in 15th century bohemia.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Crimson wrote: Imperium has never been depicted as particularly sexist, nor should it be. It is quite different thing for them to be depicted as bigoted towards fictional space aliens, because those do not really exist, than against people who are actually present in the playerbase. Space marine limitation has always been depicted as technical, not cultural, and if that limitation remains, that should also remain as the reasoning.
You misunderstood - i meant aspect of Imperium where adjusting few lines in the drawing or questioning "wouln't it be better this way?" can easily promote you to envious job of bein' servitor or human torch. And unless retcon - there's no femarines made by Big E.
As for SIr Moriaen - well, wasn't exactly COMMON RL occurence in North ( not to mention that BRITISH tale was most probably inspired by Crusade-era and out-of-region experiences, if not by Roman era one). But problem is that 'in the name of political correctness' IJWs are demanding exceptions and fables turned in mainstream depiction. And this is small potatoes compared to demands of 'positive discrimination' based on gender,sexuality, or race and religion.
So since I was away the three new reasons as to why we can not have femalen space marines are as follows.
- There would not be enough wimen left to make babies.
Others have pointed out how this is a bad argument. One of the reasons why being that the population is to big for it to leave a dent compared to how many marines there are, and I will leave thatbone at that.
- Space Marines would get out of hand as they could self populate.
This runs into the problem that nothing prevents marines from self populating right now if they so chosed (astra claws in the badab war anyone) and that all space marines are sterile by design. Just like SM can not create children Space Marines would stil not be able to make children.
- We already have female SM in sisters of battle.
That is hardly the same. Sisters are often cast as exstreme bad guys claims everything must be purged. S3 and T3 does not a SM make. Wheras marines excist in all the colours of the rainbow bothbin colour and culture and are the iconic character of the setting. This is like comparing a lame ass car that does not sell well with several of the most iconic cars in the world and say they are the same.
I guess I am 'moving the goal post again' but none of those are good arguments. You can tell by the amount of people who points out they are not good arguments. Put please continue this tapdance where you present your best reasons, and then come with more reasons when they do not stick.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/04 00:14:50
You misunderstood - i meant aspect of Imperium where adjusting few lines in the drawing or questioning "wouln't it be better this way?" can easily promote you to envious job of bein' servitor or human torch. And unless retcon - there's no femarines made by Big E.
That argument would have sounded far more convincing before the whole Primaris mess!
As for SIr Moriaen - well, wasn't exactly COMMON RL occurence in North ( not to mention that BRITISH tale was most probably inspired by Crusade-era and out-of-region experiences, if not by Roman era one). But problem is that 'in the name of political correctness' IJWs are demanding exceptions and fables turned in mainstream depiction. And this is small potatoes compared to demands of 'positive discrimination' based on gender,sexuality, or race and religion.
Black people were not invented in the 19th century, and travelling did happen, especially during Roman Empire. It is actually the 'SJWs' who are in this instance better informed about the actual history. Though I suggest we drop this topic, as it is about real world politics, and there is no need to derail the thread with that.
- We already have female SM in sisters of battle. That is hardly the same. Sisters are often cast as exstreme bad guys claims everything must be purged.
Oh yes, and space marines are always so noble and pleasant. Like those Marines Malevolent Guys. Or Black Templars. Or Flesh Tearers And sisters are presented as good guys. They are presented as extremely loyal to the Emperor and will not be corrupted or surrender. If you want bad guys, look at Chao and Dark Eldar. The fact that they purge is irrelevant, as marines do the same damned thing. I find it ironic how you go on about bad arguments, when that argument is pretty terrible and is extremely divorced from reality.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/04 00:34:20
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
- We already have female SM in sisters of battle.
That is hardly the same. Sisters are often cast as exstreme bad guys claims everything must be purged.
Oh yes, and space marines are always so noble and pleasant. Like those Marines Malevolent Guys. Or Black Templars. Or Flesh Tearers And sisters are presented as good guys. They are presented as extremely loyal to the Emperor and will not be corrupted or surrender. If you want bad guys, look at Chao and Dark Eldar. The fact that they purge is irrelevant, as marines do the same damned thing.
I find it ironic how you go on about bad arguments, when that argument is pretty terrible and is extremely divorced from reality.
You are sort of awnsering your own objection there. Space Marines are not always noble and pleasant, they are in fact very versatile in their representation. Double up so when you include chaos space marines as well. That is why is use the plural of cars in my car comparison metaphore. You have just so many cool space marines chapters to chose from out there. Wheras sisters of battle, well say what you want about them, but they are not as versatile as space marines when it comes to pick your flavour. I stil claim it is like comparing one lame car to all of the cool cars in the world. Even if you like that lame car, and many do, comparing them is doing injustice to all the cool cars (who are the space marines well all know and love in this metaphore.)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/04 00:42:02
- We already have female SM in sisters of battle. That is hardly the same. Sisters are often cast as exstreme bad guys claims everything must be purged.
Oh yes, and space marines are always so noble and pleasant. Like those Marines Malevolent Guys. Or Black Templars. Or Flesh Tearers And sisters are presented as good guys. They are presented as extremely loyal to the Emperor and will not be corrupted or surrender. If you want bad guys, look at Chao and Dark Eldar. The fact that they purge is irrelevant, as marines do the same damned thing. I find it ironic how you go on about bad arguments, when that argument is pretty terrible and is extremely divorced from reality.
You are sort of awnsering your own objection there. Space Marines are not always noble and pleasant, they are in fact very versatile in their representation. Double up so when you include chaos space marines as well. That is why is use the plural of cars in my car comparison metaphore. You have just so many cool space marines chapters to chose from out there. Wheras sisters of battle, well say what you want about them, but they are not as versatile as space marines when it comes to pick your flavour.
Except you have different orders of sisters who are similar to chapters, and each act in a certain way. The Order of the Bloody Rose, for example, favors dominion squads and are rather aggressive and ferocious in battle. The Order of the Argent Shroud is silent and are known for acts of selfless heroism. They are not all the same. And extra characterization is something that could always be added to them and developed upon. The fact that there are something like 7 flavors of marine codices is irrelevant, as no other army gets those. You might as well claim that every army should be marine, as they just aren't as versatile.
Niiai wrote: I stil claim it is like comparing one lame car to all of the cool cars in the world. Even if you like that lame car, and many do, comparing them is doing injustice to all the cool cars (who are the space marines well all know and love in this metaphore.)
You are aware that you are basically stating that every army that isn't marine is lame, right?
As someone who does not collect marines, I'm actually rather annoyed that you would imply that my army is a "lame car" as it doesn't reach your perceptions of cool.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/03/04 00:57:18
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
- We already have female SM in sisters of battle. That is hardly the same. Sisters are often cast as exstreme bad guys claims everything must be purged.
Oh yes, and space marines are always so noble and pleasant. Like those Marines Malevolent Guys. Or Black Templars. Or Flesh Tearers And sisters are presented as good guys. They are presented as extremely loyal to the Emperor and will not be corrupted or surrender. If you want bad guys, look at Chao and Dark Eldar. The fact that they purge is irrelevant, as marines do the same damned thing. I find it ironic how you go on about bad arguments, when that argument is pretty terrible and is extremely divorced from reality.
You are sort of awnsering your own objection there. Space Marines are not always noble and pleasant, they are in fact very versatile in their representation. Double up so when you include chaos space marines as well. That is why is use the plural of cars in my car comparison metaphore. You have just so many cool space marines chapters to chose from out there. Wheras sisters of battle, well say what you want about them, but they are not as versatile as space marines when it comes to pick your flavour. I stil claim it is like comparing one lame car to all of the cool cars in the world. Even if you like that lame car, and many do, comparing them is doing injustice to all the cool cars (who are the space marines well all know and love in this metaphore.)
Have we not considered making Sisters more diverse? Creating precedent for a variety of Orders and Minor Orders, with their own flair and styles? After all GW has done it with the Scions - why couldn't they with Sisters?
The ONLY requirements of the Sisterhood is that they are fanatically loyal to the God-Emperor via the Ecclesiarchy. Everything else, really, from that, can follow. Why can't we expand the Sisters?
As Cthulu'sSpy says - we already deviation between Orders - bring that out more, encourage it with new plastic kits, and that's a faction waiting to be exploited.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/04 00:51:40
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I did not mean to say that all angels were male, I meant to say that Archangels, such as Michael, tended to be portrayed as male.
And that marines are heavily inspired by specifically archangels.
Well, they aren't. Nothing supports this. Archangels are not associated with the idea of having a thousand armies of a thousand people each. They are associated with a dozen at most people that extremely powerful but not organized as armies.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: As Michael is the archetypical warrior angel as well as having the title of angel of death
Azrael is much more famous in pop culture than Michael as the angel of death. Just saying.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Its also likely that marines are both warrior-monks as well as being archangel-analogues. They are a mix of things, after all.
Woah. They sure are a mix of a bunch of completely unrelated and quite contradictory things, that just somehow happen to all point about them not being allowed to be women, despite all logic.
Do you want a list of pop-culture version of female angels, most of whom are warrior?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I do not agree that they are a blank slate, as that would imply they possess no unifying characteristics. They are with religious and monastic undertones.
They are a blank canvas. The “all male, genetically engineered super soldiers” part is the canvas that is there to be filled with personality. The religiousness is pervasive in the whole Imperium, and the monastic undertones are a Dark Angel thing, not a general thing.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Celestine, to me, looks like a Jeanne D'arc analogue with strong angelic themes. I mean, you have the Fleur De Lys motif, which is a French symbol, Celestine inspires her soldiers, just as Jeanne did and was believed to have been personally touched by the Emperor himself, just as Jeanne.
Yeah we got the whole Jeanne d'Arc package. Celestine was a small peasant before hearing the Emperor speak to her, she then raised armies to push back some invaders, and then she was tried and killed as a witch.
Except for the fact that all of this is false. Celestine was already a Sister before ascending to Sainthood, not a civilian. She isn't famous for leading armies, more for appearing in time of need. She was never in disgrace. So, what do we have? Celestine has a fleur de lys, like Sisters did long before Celestine was introduced into the setting. Celestine inspire her soldiers, like every charismatic leader in the whole setting does, and god that means a LOOOOOOOT of them. Now let's look at Celestine signature abilities: she flies, and she can resurrect. Yep, Jeanne didn't come close to doing either.
Your affirmation is flimsy and that's putting it lightly.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Speaking of Sisters of Battle, they are an all female faction, right? Wouldn't it make sense to have a all male faction to run parallel to that?
Yeah, I mentioned those. Dark Angels.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Sisters are a elite force of powered armored women. That's kind of their theme.
No that's not their theme. That's one of their characteristic. Their theme is being the elite army of a giant, incredibly wealthy and powerful and zealous religious organization.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Suddenly making one of them mixed would ruin that parallel, and I don't think that's a good thing.
I have 0 problems with this and it sounds more like an ad hoc excuse than a genuine concern to me.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So because the setting changed it means it should keep getting changed for the sake of change? Are you a servant of Tzeentch or something?
I really disliked the change that were introduced, so I'd really want to have at least a few good changes to go along with it. I mean, it's already too late for keeping things as they were, so…
chyron wrote: Even if female SMs are possible 'physically'- are they possible 'culturally' without total retcon?
Yes.
(Female Inquisitor boss people all around the galaxy)
kastelen wrote: Not really, saying that you'd rather keep the setting the same as it always was is the neutral thing.
How is that neutral? Neutral between what and what?
kastelen wrote: Saying you don't care is apathetic, not neutral.
Apathetic is neutral.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
I want Valkirie SoB, Vampire SoB, Bizantine/Slavic SoB, Zulu based Sob, Arabic Based SoB... and I'm not joking. SoB, just like Imperial Guard Regiments and Space Marines can be made totally diverse.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/04 01:12:28
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
I will admitt I know next to nothing about sisters. The last time I saw sisters of battle was in Dawn of War soulstorm and that came out in 2008. Today is 2018, so the last time I saw some sisters was 10 years ago, and that was not even a plastic model. There is no last time I saw a Space Marine because I am currently looking at one. Sgt_Smudge has a fun forum avatar where a warhammer space marine is holding up the helmet of a star wars storm trooper implying some rather funny jokes. Has the space marine killed the storm trooper in a ironic gloryfied 40K pulpy gore fashion, does he conteplate the similareties between them or is he just practesing his hamlet impressions. It is a rather good avatar. Space Marines makes rather good poster boys.
If you claim sisters of battle are just as diverse as space marines, or as well represented in the setting you are just lying. If you say women in power armour are the same as geneticaly manipulated space marines with beefy S4T4 you are also lying. I will grant you sisters of battle has a cultural footprint within the setting, but it is hardly the same in scope.
I belive the reasons GW chooses not to expand on sisters is because they are not as well liked, and they do not sell as much. When you are trying to have an income in global market with many competors you focus on your streanghts.
As of October 2017 there are 46 published volumes of the horus heresey franchise, pluss several other books with space marines as the main antagonist. There is a horus heresye game with their own models and rules popularly refered to as 30K. There are currently 3 loylalist codexes, with SW on the rumour will, and 3 chaos codexes.
Sisters of battle has... well if I walk into a store they have no models I can buy. That is a problem. They have their army entry in an index, that is a good thing. You have the sisters of battle novel series (2 books and an audio drama) and some other books but I have a hard time tracking them down. Do not compare sisters to space marines and say they are the same, for they really are not.
For GW to go hard in on sisters of battle makes as much sence as continuing tomb kings in age of sigmar. It is a miracle sisters of battle are stil around. Making some elaberate plan that GW can expand on sisters in a big way is ludacriss. Even if they did, that stil do not change the fact that there are no good reasons to not have female space marines.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Have we not considered making Sisters more diverse? Creating precedent for a variety of Orders and Minor Orders, with their own flair and styles? After all GW has done it with the Scions - why couldn't they with Sisters?
Sisters aren't designed as a blank canvas army. They already have a very strong personality. They are a monolithic organization, unlike marines, that have one supreme leader (the only one to have this, there is no supreme Marine leader in charge of all the marine chapters, there is no Imperial Guard supreme leader either, and I never heard about one for Mechanicus), they are stated as being the one with the least variation, etc.
Of course you could change all that. But what's the point of making a pretty nice faction with a very strong personality into a blank canvas faction instead of simply extending the already existing blank canvas faction?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Have we not considered making Sisters more diverse? Creating precedent for a variety of Orders and Minor Orders, with their own flair and styles? After all GW has done it with the Scions - why couldn't they with Sisters?
Sisters aren't designed as a blank canvas army. They already have a very strong personality. They are a monolithic organization, unlike marines, that have one supreme leader (the only one to have this, there is no supreme Marine leader in charge of all the marine chapters, there is no Imperial Guard supreme leader either, and I never heard about one for Mechanicus), they are stated as being the one with the least variation, etc.
Of course you could change all that. But what's the point of making a pretty nice faction with a very strong personality into a blank canvas faction instead of simply extending the already existing blank canvas faction?
Imperial Guard and Adeptus Mechanicus both have a High Lord of Terra as their supreme leader just like Sisters of Battle. Sisters of Battle have a strong personality thats right but they are too world-based, and even by GW canon the Imperial Creed is very, very diverse in all of the Imperium. The Echlesiarchy isn't a monolithic religious where everywhere is the same. They have some strong core that don't change, but the rest? The rest is open and based in the world/sector.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Galas wrote: I want Valkirie SoB, Vampire SoB, Bizantine/Slavic SoB, Zulu based Sob, Arabic Based SoB... and I'm not joking. SoB, just like Imperial Guard Regiments and Space Marines can be made totally diverse.
I'm actually really curious how Zulu SoB would turn out. How would you even design that?
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Galas wrote: I want Valkirie SoB, Vampire SoB, Bizantine/Slavic SoB, Zulu based Sob, Arabic Based SoB... and I'm not joking. SoB, just like Imperial Guard Regiments and Space Marines can be made totally diverse.
I'm actually really curious how Zulu SoB would turn out. How would you even design that?
Less armour, more based in fast attack options, with spear+shield special units, etc... and obviously all the designs based in that culture just like Space Wolves.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Galas wrote: Sisters of Battle have a strong personality thats right but they are too world-based, and even by GW canon the Imperial Creed is very, very diverse in all of the Imperium.
Yes but the Sisters aren't. The traditions of the Sisters, etc, are extremely codified. The Sisters are very different from the rest of the Ecclesiarchy in this regard.
Note that unlike Imperial Guards, the Sisters aren't raised in the culture of their world. They are raised into the schola progenium.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Galas wrote: Sisters of Battle have a strong personality thats right but they are too world-based, and even by GW canon the Imperial Creed is very, very diverse in all of the Imperium.
Yes but the Sisters aren't. The traditions of the Sisters, etc, are extremely codified. The Sisters are very different from the rest of the Ecclesiarchy in this regard.
Note that unlike Imperial Guards, the Sisters aren't raised in the culture of their world. They are raised into the schola progenium.
You are right, but being raised in the Schola Progenium doesn't change the fact that the Orders are World-Based. Even Tempestus Scions squads have a great diversity, based in how they fight, where they fight, etc... and they have much less reasons to be diverse than SoB, lacking really any world that they could call home, etc...
And, just like with fem-marines, SoB lore hasn't been really expanded or changed for 20 years (You had the "Sisters are 12k... no, now they are billions. Nah they are just six orders... nah billions again"). If GW would come back to expand them, they totally should make them more apealling and customizable. They did it with Necrons...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/04 01:39:35
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
I'm actually really curious how Zulu SoB would turn out. How would you even design that?
If you got sisters of battle zulu edition like depicted in the picture from black panther would they still be sisters of battle? As Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl pointed out sisters of battle is a very cultural spesific army (it is not a blank canvas army was the words he used.)
There zulu where characteristed by a lot of things culturally. But from an army perspective the zulu had 3 things going for them:
- They had the honn strategy, where you come at the enemy from 2 flanks, and then you had a small group that snuck behind enemy lines and come at the back.
- They had a fleet of foot army as they where all veyr mobile.
- They had leather on their shield and dipped them in some hardening substances that made the shield turn away bullits, or at least stopped their effectivness for the guns of that era.
So an army presented with these strategies would need to me a mid- or close ranged army, to present the horns. Preferrably they would need to have melee units. To represent the outflank, they would need some form of deepstrike/outflanking posabilaty. They would need some mobilaty to represent their fleet of foot. Some form of storm shoulds would need to make an aperance to represent the shields.
Those 3 points do not mesh well with the army doctrine of the sisters of battle, unless you are really bending the rules. Ssietsr of battle are all about faith, fire based (melta flamer) and bolter based weapons (bolt pistol, bolter gun, heavy bolter.) It is not really a good fit.
Wheras if you wanne represent this with marines you can do some fast moving CC to represent the horns. They have outflanking units. They are mobile. And they have shields already in the game. More importantly Space Marines do not come with a lot of cultural bagga that would be conflicting with the zulu consept. Instead, the few cultural aspects SM do come with lends itself very well to the zulu consept. This is in part why SM lends itself so many things, they are designed this way.
Niiai wrote:I will admitt I know next to nothing about sisters. The last time I saw sisters of battle was in Dawn of War soulstorm and that came out in 2008. Today is 2018, so the last time I saw some sisters was 10 years ago, and that was not even a plastic model. There is no last time I saw a Space Marine because I am currently looking at one.
And I would love to change that. Sisters should have more exposure: plastic would be a perfect medium.
Sgt_Smudge has a fun forum avatar where a warhammer space marine is holding up the helmet of a star wars storm trooper implying some rather funny jokes. Has the space marine killed the storm trooper in a ironic gloryfied 40K pulpy gore fashion, does he conteplate the similareties between them or is he just practesing his hamlet impressions. It is a rather good avatar. Space Marines makes rather good poster boys.
It's for the Hamlet impression, in matter of fact. I'd have preferred if it was an Ultramarine with a Mark 7 helmet, but hey, what can you do. Space Marines do make good poster boys, but that's because GW have saturated them into their setting. If SoB were given similar saturation (and they ARE a very recognizable aspect of 40k - frequently cosplayed, in fact), then their power armoured aesthetic would be similar enough to the already popular SMs to give them a stronger foothold in the IP of 40k.
If you claim sisters of battle are just as diverse as space marines, or as well represented in the setting you are just lying.
I beg to differ. I'm not saying they're quite as diverse now, but they have the potential to be, with very little to stop that. So long as the criteria are met, then all can follow.
If you say women in power armour are the same as geneticaly manipulated space marines with beefy S4T4 you are also lying. I will grant you sisters of battle has a cultural footprint within the setting, but it is hardly the same in scope.
I thought we wanted women in 40k, not specifically superhuman women. A woman is a woman, whether with a second heart or not. It shouldn't matter if they're a Space Marine, necessarily - only that they have the same influence as one.
And agreed on the latter - this is something that I want to fix. I'm not saying it's perfect right now, but that's the avenue I want to go down to reach the desired goal.
I belive the reasons GW chooses not to expand on sisters is because they are not as well liked, and they do not sell as much. When you are trying to have an income in global market with many competors you focus on your streanghts.
However, GW's methods are self-perpetuating.
If they only make Space Marines, that's all they'll sell. If they expanded out to the ever-growing market of SoB fans, then there's a solid chance they'd be snapped up. After all - look how well Celestine sold in plastic. Canoness Veridyan, the House Escher gang, their AoS scuplts - all very popular.
As of October 2017 there are 46 published volumes of the horus heresey franchise, pluss several other books with space marines as the main antagonist. There is a horus heresye game with their own models and rules popularly refered to as 30K. There are currently 3 loylalist codexes, with SW on the rumour will, and 3 chaos codexes.
Sisters of battle has... well if I walk into a store they have no models I can buy. That is a problem. They have their army entry in an index, that is a good thing. You have the sisters of battle novel series (2 books and an audio drama) and some other books but I have a hard time tracking them down. Do not compare sisters to space marines and say they are the same, for they really are not.
I'm not saying that they ARE the same. I haven't said that. I've made it clear that I WANT them to be the same, that I want Sisters to have that exposure.
I understand that you may be misreading my argument, and that's not deliberate, but I hope I've made it clear that I don't think SoB have anywhere near the exposure of SM. I still very much want that to change.
For GW to go hard in on sisters of battle makes as much sence as continuing tomb kings in age of sigmar. It is a miracle sisters of battle are stil around. Making some elaberate plan that GW can expand on sisters in a big way is ludacriss. Even if they did, that stil do not change the fact that there are no good reasons to not have female space marines.
Good in YOUR OPINION. I have my reason why not, and it's a solid reason TO ME. That's just my opinion. Yours is yours. You don't have the power to say your opinion is the overriding one here.
If you feel there are no good reasons, I have just as much authority to say that there are plenty of good reasons, and neither of us is more right than the other.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Have we not considered making Sisters more diverse? Creating precedent for a variety of Orders and Minor Orders, with their own flair and styles? After all GW has done it with the Scions - why couldn't they with Sisters?
Sisters aren't designed as a blank canvas army. They already have a very strong personality. They are a monolithic organization, unlike marines, that have one supreme leader (the only one to have this, there is no supreme Marine leader in charge of all the marine chapters, there is no Imperial Guard supreme leader either, and I never heard about one for Mechanicus), they are stated as being the one with the least variation, etc. Of course you could change all that. But what's the point of making a pretty nice faction with a very strong personality into a blank canvas faction instead of simply extending the already existing blank canvas faction?
The entire Imperium, barring perhaps the Mechanicus, is a monolithic organisation in it's entirety. That doesn't mean that every fighting force within it is the same, and nor should it mean the same for the Sisters.
The Imperial Guard have one, the Lord Commander Militant. The Lord Solar is also a noted position, occupied once by Macharius. I can understand missing this one, however.
The AdMech have their Fabricator General. I am more surprised you didn't know of this one, as it's been a noted position since before the Heresy itself. And, of course despite both these factions having a "supreme leader" (except the Emperor himself), they're incredibly diverse, Guardsmen especially. The various AdMech groups have been different enough to go to civil war (see Moirae Schism) - so why are the Sisters so monolithic?
Nothing about them explains WHY they are - they just are. We also see differences between orders, as CthulusSpy pointed out - what's really stopping us from that? If there's a lore reason as to why not - fair enough. That then warrants the discussion on "if that lore should be changed", which is the current debate on SMs.
If not, then more diverse Sisters can ABSOLUTELY be a thing. As long as the central tenet of the Sisters' design philosophy is met (an all-female holy order acting as the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy) then anything can follow.
Who says that devotion can't take it's place in the form of tribal worship, or fortification of the Emperor's Lands, or in massed Exorcist volleys?
Galas wrote: Sisters of Battle have a strong personality thats right but they are too world-based, and even by GW canon the Imperial Creed is very, very diverse in all of the Imperium.
Yes but the Sisters aren't. The traditions of the Sisters, etc, are extremely codified. The Sisters are very different from the rest of the Ecclesiarchy in this regard. Note that unlike Imperial Guards, the Sisters aren't raised in the culture of their world. They are raised into the schola progenium.
Like Scions? And they're all totally the same- wait. Nope, that's not true.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/04 01:57:46
Niiai wrote: So since I was away the three new reasons as to why we can not have femalen space marines are as follows.
- There would not be enough wimen left to make babies.
Others have pointed out how this is a bad argument. One of the reasons why being that the population is to big for it to leave a dent compared to how many marines there are, and I will leave thatbone at that.
- Space Marines would get out of hand as they could self populate.
This runs into the problem that nothing prevents marines from self populating right now if they so chosed (astra claws in the badab war anyone) and that all space marines are sterile by design. Just like SM can not create children Space Marines would stil not be able to make children.
- We already have female SM in sisters of battle.
That is hardly the same. Sisters are often cast as exstreme bad guys claims everything must be purged. S3 and T3 does not a SM make. Wheras marines excist in all the colours of the rainbow bothbin colour and culture and are the iconic character of the setting. This is like comparing a lame ass car that does not sell well with several of the most iconic cars in the world and say they are the same.
I guess I am 'moving the goal post again' but none of those are good arguments. You can tell by the amount of people who points out they are not good arguments. Put please continue this tapdance where you present your best reasons, and then come with more reasons when they do not stick.
1: yep thats a dim reason
2: not remotely the same and you know it, if female marines can theoretically create more marines WITHOUT the implantation process, natural male and female astartes, then it would get out of hand very very quickly, if marines could reproduce naturally, then they would rule the universe already, billions of marines instead of humans, marines making other marines badab war style takes decades to do properly, making all marines male to make sure that at no point no one works out how to make them able to give birth make perfect sense for a disposable force, and thats what the marines are, imagine if fabious worked out how to allow female marines to have children during a female heresy, its a whole new can of worms, so like it or lump it, this is a valid in universe reason not to have female marines, if I were the Emperor, I would not even want the hint of a risk of that happening.
3: who said sisters are female marines? sure they are a MEQ but thats about it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/04 02:03:42
Again, just bacause so much is being said, even if we had the most glorius sisters of batle in en every store that is no reason not to have space marines based on females.
Niiai wrote: Again, just bacause so much is being said, even if we had the most glorius sisters of batle in en every store that is no reason not to have space marines based on females.
Why?
The main reason people are asking for Female Space Marines isn't because they're Space Marines specifically.
It's because Space Marines are popular.
If SoB were as popular as SM, that reaches the goal set.
There is a perfectly good reason why women can't be SM. That's the lore. As I personally see it, there is no reason to change it, because increasing exposure of the Sisters of Battle, without even having to change their lore, would achieve the same result - increased female exposure.
Niiai wrote: Again, just bacause so much is being said, even if we had the most glorius sisters of batle in en every store that is no reason not to have space marines based on females.
Why?
The main reason people are asking for Female Space Marines isn't because they're Space Marines specifically.
It's because Space Marines are popular.
If SoB were as popular as SM, that reaches the goal set.
There is a perfectly good reason why women can't be SM. That's the lore. As I personally see it, there is no reason to change it, because increasing exposure of the Sisters of Battle, without even having to change their lore, would achieve the same result - increased female exposure.
~4100
~1660
I'd have preferred if it was an Ultramarine with a Mark 7 helmet, but hey, what can you do.