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Guys.

There's like a Moderator, right there.

Going 'Keep doing this, and I'm going to lock this'.

And like... You just keep doing it... Endlessly...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's assuming there is a need to have so many Codices. I'm all for consolidating the Angels chapters into the main codex for example.

Yes, you are right. I would still be a bit worried about reaching some saturation, if not in codices, at least in terms of number of official factions. But maybe that's just me?

 Formosa wrote:
Would it impair our enjoyment of the fluff, well that really does depend on how they are implemented, because this is how I see the female marine crowds expectations.

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean, but I'd be pretty happy with female Marines being indiscernible from male marines while in armor, and I've never seen a marine without armor.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Honestly, after multiple threadstorms on the subject, by now there's a pretty snarky part of me that thinks the majority of people who want female space marines just like the arguments it produces, rather than a burning need for it to be an inclusion in the fiction.

Well, I do enjoy the discussion with Sgt_Smudge, that is becoming less heated and more like a good exchange of opinions, yes, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't genuinely enjoy female marines being part of the lore.


I'm a bit lost on the whole “Marines being able to reproduce” thing. Explain me if I'm wrong. The basic idea is that in the fluff, marines aren't able to reproduce, but if there was female marines, then they could maybe reproduce? I guess that's easily solve by changing the fluff from “Only men can become marines and they cannot reproduce” into “Men and women can become marines but they still cannot reproduce”. Seems easy to me, am I missing something? What's the big deal?

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Guys.

There's like a Moderator, right there.

Going 'Keep doing this, and I'm going to lock this'.

And like... You just keep doing it... Endlessly...

Some threads are better off locked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:



I'm a bit lost on the whole “Marines being able to reproduce” thing. Explain me if I'm wrong. The basic idea is that in the fluff, marines aren't able to reproduce, but if there was female marines, then they could maybe reproduce? I guess that's easily solve by changing the fluff from “Only men can become marines and they cannot reproduce” into “Men and women can become marines but they still cannot reproduce”. Seems easy to me, am I missing something? What's the big deal?

I was just using it as an easy example in an argument for why;

"Its in the lore!" = Not a good argument, yet "Its in the lore!" = A good argument.

Is not sound logic.

 Alpharius wrote:
Seems to be at the circular point here, and if it continues in this vein, a thread lock is imminent.

Because until such a time when GW says Space Marines can indeed be female, they've already said that they cannot be female.

I told Alpharius as well, but I am pulling out form this conversation. We are like a broken record here, and I seem to be a big part of the polarisation of the discourse, Hopefully we will have some nice viewpoints yet to come. :-)

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's assuming there is a need to have so many Codices. I'm all for consolidating the Angels chapters into the main codex for example.

Yes, you are right. I would still be a bit worried about reaching some saturation, if not in codices, at least in terms of number of official factions. But maybe that's just me?

 Formosa wrote:
Would it impair our enjoyment of the fluff, well that really does depend on how they are implemented, because this is how I see the female marine crowds expectations.

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean, but I'd be pretty happy with female Marines being indiscernible from male marines while in armor, and I've never seen a marine without armor.

Not willing to add fuel to this bonfire, but here's a marine without armour, form the Blood Quest comic series.

 Dark wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's assuming there is a need to have so many Codices. I'm all for consolidating the Angels chapters into the main codex for example.

Yes, you are right. I would still be a bit worried about reaching some saturation, if not in codices, at least in terms of number of official factions. But maybe that's just me?

 Formosa wrote:
Would it impair our enjoyment of the fluff, well that really does depend on how they are implemented, because this is how I see the female marine crowds expectations.

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean, but I'd be pretty happy with female Marines being indiscernible from male marines while in armor, and I've never seen a marine without armor.

Not willing to add fuel to this bonfire, but here's a marine without armour, form the Blood Quest comic series.

My picture was just to poke fun not to be taken too seriously really

 Niiai wrote:

Some apolagetics are better then others. For instance 'It is not currently in the setting' is the best argument against space marines based upon females. In my opponion it is not a good argument as we have seen several revisions of the setting form GW to the setting so far, but it is by far the strongest argument.

 Niiai wrote:

We have also learned that somebody has problems to seperate the idea that space marines can be based upon females, and the fact that space marines can not make babies. I am learning so much in this thread, and it tells me so much of the sosioculture background of my fellow players. Some studies in psycology point to peoole asume fellow players share the same opinion that they hold. Clearly this is not the case here.

This is where you lose me, you complain about wanting something not in the setting but then complain more when someone points out something that would then happen because it isn't in the current setting.
(Yes I am very late to this)

 Formosa wrote:

 Dark wrote:

Spoiler:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's assuming there is a need to have so many Codices. I'm all for consolidating the Angels chapters into the main codex for example.

Yes, you are right. I would still be a bit worried about reaching some saturation, if not in codices, at least in terms of number of official factions. But maybe that's just me?

 Formosa wrote:
Would it impair our enjoyment of the fluff, well that really does depend on how they are implemented, because this is how I see the female marine crowds expectations.

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean, but I'd be pretty happy with female Marines being indiscernible from male marines while in armor, and I've never seen a marine without armor.

Not willing to add fuel to this bonfire, but here's a marine without armour, form the Blood Quest comic series.

 Dark wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Dark wrote:

Spoiler:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's assuming there is a need to have so many Codices. I'm all for consolidating the Angels chapters into the main codex for example.

Yes, you are right. I would still be a bit worried about reaching some saturation, if not in codices, at least in terms of number of official factions. But maybe that's just me?

 Formosa wrote:
Would it impair our enjoyment of the fluff, well that really does depend on how they are implemented, because this is how I see the female marine crowds expectations.

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean, but I'd be pretty happy with female Marines being indiscernible from male marines while in armor, and I've never seen a marine without armor.

Not willing to add fuel to this bonfire, but here's a marine without armour, form the Blood Quest comic series.

 Dark wrote:
Not willing to add fuel to this bonfire, but here's a marine without armour, form the Blood Quest comic series.

That's not fuel, it's pretty nice to contribute with extra information . But yeah, I remember seeing a few illustrations of marines without armor (very very few though), just never any model. I should have been clearer on this.

See, I wouldn't have much of a problem with Space Wolf Valkyries (even if they are more likely to be comparable to special Scions rather than full Astartes). I just don't see an urgent, burning need. And this is from a guy who has had a Sisters army since their original release, and I also love the two female Stormcast models in AoS (my force is actually led by Neave Blacktalon converted to be my Lord Celestant) and I'm eager to see more.

But I simply don't see a need for a retcon to introduce female Astartes any more than I see a need to retcon the Orkoid fungus to produce female Orks just for appearances sake. To me, the transformation of violent young men is as much a part of what makes them as unique as the reason Sisters of Battle have no male members.

At least when it comes to situations on the tabletop, I would rather see GW first spend some effort on making more quality female figures for armies that don't even need a fluff retcon to exist, like Imperial Guard and Stormcast, where women make up a quite substantial portion.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
See, I wouldn't have much of a problem with Space Wolf Valkyries (even if they are more likely to be comparable to special Scions rather than full Astartes). I just don't see an urgent, burning need. And this is from a guy who has had a Sisters army since their original release, and I also love the two female Stormcast models in AoS (my force is actually led by Neave Blacktalon converted to be my Lord Celestant) and I'm eager to see more.

But I simply don't see a need for a retcon to introduce female Astartes any more than I see a need to retcon the Orkoid fungus to produce female Orks just for appearances sake. To me, the transformation of violent young men is as much a part of what makes them as unique as the reason Sisters of Battle have no male members.

At least when it comes to situations on the tabletop, I would rather see GW first spend some effort on making more quality female figures for armies that don't even need a fluff retcon to exist, like Imperial Guard and Stormcast, where women make up a quite substantial portion.

Technically the whole Ork-fungus thing is itself a retcon but agree with the rest.

Well, yeah, buts it's such an ancient retcon it's not a huge issue. There's probably a great many players who aren't even as old as that change, lol.

for the record. Let's call a spade a spade regarding the "representation" arguement. That ENTIRE ARGUMENT is build on the presupposition that a majority of people are both sexist and racist. a presupposition I for one reject.

BrianDavion wrote:
for the record. Let's call a spade a spade regarding the "representation" arguement. That ENTIRE ARGUMENT is build on the presupposition that a majority of people are both sexist and racist. a presupposition I for one reject.

I call bs on that.

BrianDavion wrote:
for the record. Let's call a spade a spade regarding the "representation" arguement. That ENTIRE ARGUMENT is build on the presupposition that a majority of people are both sexist and racist. a presupposition I for one reject.

Well that's a complete non sequitur.

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
for the record. Let's call a spade a spade regarding the "representation" arguement. That ENTIRE ARGUMENT is build on the presupposition that a majority of people are both sexist and racist. a presupposition I for one reject.

Well that's a complete non sequitur.

Yeah kinda came out of nowhere and isnt whats happening here??

 Formosa wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
for the record. Let's call a spade a spade regarding the "representation" arguement. That ENTIRE ARGUMENT is build on the presupposition that a majority of people are both sexist and racist. a presupposition I for one reject.

Well that's a complete non sequitur.

Yeah kinda came out of nowhere and isnt whats happening here??

wat happened is I left dakka dakka up for an hour and the last thing I read was someone mentioning something about the reperesentation aspect of arguing female space marines.
I've just always felt it was a weak arguement myself

Fair one

Wanting representation isn't racism or sexism though. It's noticing racist or sexist bias.
It feels like the old “I don't see color” argument. If that means you treat everyone the same, great. If that means you don't notice when the police officer in front of you treat blacks differently, yeah, you don't “see colors”, but it just means that you don't see racism when it happens. Seems pretty similar here.

I take offence when not wanting GW to waste time re-doing space marine moulds _again_ when Sisters, when my Eldar Avatar, when half the Inquisition models, etc, are all in dire, dire, dire need of a reprint, means I'm somehow sexist.

Or when I don't want someone changing the setting, in any way, because 'Well I think it would be nicer to the real world.' It's _Fiction_. The Imperium is allowed to be sexist, without me being sexist. Space Wizardy is allowed to only make male space marines without it suddenly meaning _anything_ about my personal views on women, least of all because I didn't even design the blooming thing.

40k is not real life.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I take offence when not wanting GW to waste time re-doing space marine moulds _again_ when Sisters, when my Eldar Avatar, when half the Inquisition models, etc, are all in dire, dire, dire need of a reprint, means I'm somehow sexist.

Or when I don't want someone changing the setting, in any way, because 'Well I think it would be nicer to the real world.' It's _Fiction_. The Imperium is allowed to be sexist, without me being sexist. Space Wizardy is allowed to only make male space marines without it suddenly meaning _anything_ about my personal views on women, least of all because I didn't even design the blooming thing.

40k is not real life.

That last bit there, is exactly why I think seeking representation in the game is dumb. I've said it before in here. I doubt anyone here is a Space Wizard, Transhuman Super Soldier or a Space Catholic Nazi woman in power armor who can preform literal acts of god.

I think you are just misunderstanding what people want and why they want it if you think not being a space wizard transhuman super soldier matters.
It's not about specifically wanting someone that is like you. It's about noticing that people that share one of your trait are excluded.
I'm pretty convinced that if 40k had half of the gendered models being female, most women wouldn't care to have female models. Even those that do now.

If its just the lack of female bodies, which I mean there are still alot of females but admittedly not enough, why the need for Female Space Marines?

If you dont like Space Marines (for example) because of lore or what have you, why would you suddenly like them because they have females? You already establish you dont like them.

There are also no short space marines.
There are also no gay space marines.
Black space marines are very under represented.
There are no asian space marines. [Last I checked.]
There are no ginger space marines.
There are no trans space marines.

Need I go on?

Sometimes it's okay not to be represented. Why you would crave to be represented admist a bunch of brainwashed, dubious morals, butched and biologically enchanced 1 dimensional super soldiers is beyond me. What's worse is most of the people arguing for it, arn't even of the gender that's not being represented! So it's not like _You_ feel excluded, more like you assume someone else might feel excluded and have decided to speak for them regardless of how they might actually feel.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

There are no asian space marines. [Last I checked.]

Technically white scares but they're very underrepresented.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
There are also no short space marines.

Yoes there are. All pre-Primaris marines.

There are also no gay space marines.

I'm sure there are loads of gay space marines considering that they live in all male environments with very little contact to other people.

Black space marines are very under represented.

True. But they exist.

There are no asian space marines. [Last I checked.]

Ever heard of White Scars?

There are no ginger space marines.

Many Space Wolves are ginger.

There are no trans space marines.

True. But there could





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
If its just the lack of female bodies, which I mean there are still alot of females but admittedly not enough, why the need for Female Space Marines?

I think it is mostly the symptom of the game and the lore being so focused on Space Marines. 40K is basically about Space Marines, some other factions may occasionally appear.

 Crimson wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
There are also no short space marines.

Yoes there are. All pre-Primaris marines.

There are also no gay space marines.

I'm sure there are loads of gay space marines considering that they live in all male environments with very little contact to other people.

Black space marines are very under represented.

True. But they exist.

There are no asian space marines. [Last I checked.]

Ever heard of White Scars?

There are no ginger space marines.

Many Space Wolves are ginger.

There are no trans space marines.

True. But there could





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
If its just the lack of female bodies, which I mean there are still alot of females but admittedly not enough, why the need for Female Space Marines?

I think it is mostly the symptom of the game and the lore being so focused on Space Marines. 40K is basically about Space Marines, some other factions may occasionally appear.

All marines are taller than humans.

There are no gay marines, lots of homo erotic moments though lol

All marines can be black, the melanchromic organ regulates skin tone and darkens it to resist multiple forms of radiation, doesn't work on raven guard, night lords and salamanders.

White scars and many others I'm sure, lots of chapters out there

There are no ginger loyalist space marines, only chaos marines, something to do with souls

There are no trans marines, they don't even identify as male, let alone anything else, unless slaanesh... cos slaanesh.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
If its just the lack of female bodies, which I mean there are still alot of females but admittedly not enough, why the need for Female Space Marines?

Because marines are half of the codex and 80% of the focus of the game.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
If you dont like Space Marines (for example) because of lore or what have you, why would you suddenly like them because they have females? You already establish you dont like them.

Who is you?
Ashiraya for instance like marines but would like them even more if there were female marines.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Sometimes it's okay not to be represented.

You say this like it's just something that happens “sometimes”, to anyone equivalently. It's like the whole “color-blindness” thing I spoke about…

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
If its just the lack of female bodies, which I mean there are still alot of females but admittedly not enough, why the need for Female Space Marines?

Because marines are half of the codex and 80% of the focus of the game.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
If you dont like Space Marines (for example) because of lore or what have you, why would you suddenly like them because they have females? You already establish you dont like them.

Who is you?
Ashiraya for instance like marines but would like them even more if there were female marines.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Sometimes it's okay not to be represented.

You say this like it's just something that happens “sometimes”, to anyone equivalently. It's like the whole “color-blindness” thing I spoke about…

Wait whut.... so your solution is to shift MORE focus to marines? Rather than away from marines with expanded sisters of silence or sisters of battle... that don't make sense gaji

So ash would like female marines, cool, he can make them then and leave everyone else as is, it's his hobby after all, stop trying to force your views on the rest of us then, live and let live.