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My arguments are weak? Let me phone my agent and get my think thank on the case. :p I do not chose my prefference, it is my prefference. As the word indicates I prefer it.

Then continuing this is beyond merit as much as me wanting Tau to be squats. No reason to continue this thread if it's opinions and that is reserved to the off topic board

 Quickjager wrote:
Then continuing this is beyond merit as much as me wanting Tau to be squats. No reason to continue this thread if it's opinions and that is reserved to the off topic board

If we have to have female MEQs.......

There is a RPG called eclipse phase that has something useful here. In EP there was a super soldier project that produced a series of upgrades meant to make a 'super soldier '. The good news: it indeed turned men into super soldiers! Tougher! Stronger! Faster! Meaner! The bad news: it made men uncontrollable psycho berzerkers.

Now after decades of R&D and a bazillion dollars the people behind the SS project weren't to happy to see it going up in smoke. Someone had a little brainstorm: Apply the upgrade to women! After some test cases it was proven the SS treatment made women superior fighters without turning them into khorne cultists in training.

So the project went ahead and the resultant super soldiers we're called 'Furies'.

OK suppose cawl had a few relatives he saw some potential in and put to good use. Say a particularly bright niece of his was recruited to help uncle belly out.

Now while exploring the galaxy looking for Useful Things she came across a planet that had been settled by humans who had suffered a calamity early on and lost their technology. The females were all exceptionally large, strong, smart and tough, the males became mindless beastial animals after puberty. Studying this fascinating little world little Cawlette found out a very sophisticated little symbiot lived on it. This symbiot lived inside larger organisms and had the interesting ability of analyzing their hosts and releasing biochem compounds that made the host a better survivor.

Unfortunately it made men too aggressive and violent to function as members of society. Women became more aggressive but not incapable of reason. The symbiot also released countless tiny, Hydra like organisms that worked to heal and maintain the host, giving the hosts rapid healing abilities.

Well, after studying this situation for a couple decades l'il Cawlette finally ran home yelling "Uncly Belly! Look it what I found!"

Patting his niece on her shiny gold plated head uncle belly told her to go study this for a while and come up with uses for it. After several centuries of study and a few bad love affairs l'il Cawlette seeded a few carefully selected feral worlds with the symbiots and observed the results. In each case the male populace degenerated into raving savages after puberty, the females grew larger , stronger, faster , tougher, more aggressive, more intelligent and cunning.

The potential for a new warrior type was quickly realized and developed. Recruiting the females at initial puberty allowed a series of treatments and implants to augment them eger further with. Minimal risk and effort. Their superior minds we're able to accept intense training and conditioning. Armor and weapons we're developed for them by a n AM forgeworld under L'Il Cawlette's control.. Vast numbers of them we're created, trained, equipped and out in deep. Stasis to await the imperium's hour of deepest need.

I think I would make them in several types. None would have a full marine statline but their cod be assault types who have s4, t4 and good CC stats. Another type would be shooting troops with lower S and T but damn good shots.

All could have a special ability similar to plague marines disgusting resilience or necron resurrection called 'symbiotic healing" that let's them try to recover before being removed.

Call them the Emperor's Furies and you've got yourselves a badass all female imperial elite force. Arm them with some new AM weapons like, say, rail rifles and fractal talons.

Techpriestsupport wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Then continuing this is beyond merit as much as me wanting Tau to be squats. No reason to continue this thread if it's opinions and that is reserved to the off topic board

If we have to have female MEQs.......

There is a RPG called eclipse phase that has something useful here. In EP there was a super soldier project that produced a series of upgrades meant to make a 'super soldier '. The good news: it indeed turned men into super soldiers! Tougher! Stronger! Faster! Meaner! The bad news: it made men uncontrollable psycho berzerkers.

Now after decades of R&D and a bazillion dollars the people behind the SS project weren't to happy to see it going up in smoke. Someone had a little brainstorm: Apply the upgrade to women! After some test cases it was proven the SS treatment made women superior fighters without turning them into khorne cultists in training.

So the project went ahead and the resultant super soldiers we're called 'Furies'.

OK suppose cawl had a few relatives he saw some potential in and put to good use. Say a particularly bright niece of his was recruited to help uncle belly out.

Now while exploring the galaxy looking for Useful Things she came across a planet that had been settled by humans who had suffered a calamity early on and lost their technology. The females were all exceptionally large, strong, smart and tough, the males became mindless beastial animals after puberty. Studying this fascinating little world little Cawlette found out a very sophisticated little symbiot lived on it. This symbiot lived inside larger organisms and had the interesting ability of analyzing their hosts and releasing biochem compounds that made the host a better survivor.

Unfortunately it made men too aggressive and violent to function as members of society. Women became more aggressive but not incapable of reason. The symbiot also released countless tiny, Hydra like organisms that worked to heal and maintain the host, giving the hosts rapid healing abilities.

Well, after studying this situation for a couple decades l'il Cawlette finally ran home yelling "Uncly Belly! Look it what I found!"

Patting his niece on her shiny gold plated head uncle belly told her to go study this for a while and come up with uses for it. After several centuries of study and a few bad love affairs l'il Cawlette seeded a few carefully selected feral worlds with the symbiots and observed the results. In each case the male populace degenerated into raving savages after puberty, the females grew larger , stronger, faster , tougher, more aggressive, more intelligent and cunning.

The potential for a new warrior type was quickly realized and developed. Recruiting the females at initial puberty allowed a series of treatments and implants to augment them eger further with. Minimal risk and effort. Their superior minds we're able to accept intense training and conditioning. Armor and weapons we're developed for them by a n AM forgeworld under L'Il Cawlette's control.. Vast numbers of them we're created, trained, equipped and out in deep. Stasis to await the imperium's hour of deepest need.

I think I would make them in several types. None would have a full marine statline but their cod be assault types who have s4, t4 and good CC stats. Another type would be shooting troops with lower S and T but damn good shots.

All could have a special ability similar to plague marines disgusting resilience or necron resurrection called 'symbiotic healing" that let's them try to recover before being removed.

Call them the Emperor's Furies and you've got yourselves a badass all female imperial elite force. Arm them with some new AM weapons like, say, rail rifles and fractal talons.

or they could just release sisters of battle and give sisters of silence a full codex.

That wouldn't. Satisfy some. People. Also the sisters are supposed to be fairly low in numbers. I once heard that are like far less than a million in the imeprium since each once by tradition has to go to terra to take their vows. Before the emperor.

And how numerous as the SoS?

Techpriestsupport wrote:
That wouldn't. Satisfy some. People. Also the sisters are supposed to be fairly low in numbers. I once heard that are like far less than a million in the imeprium since each once by tradition has to go to terra to take their vows. Before the emperor.

And how numerous as the SoS?

sisters of battle have waved between "millions and billions" depending on edition. IIRC we're back to Billions

Techpriestsupport wrote:
That wouldn't. Satisfy some. People. Also the sisters are supposed to be fairly low in numbers. I once heard that are like far less than a million in the imeprium since each once by tradition has to go to terra to take their vows. Before the emperor.

And how numerous as the SoS?

The numbers reason is a pretty bad one IMO. Grey Knights are only about 1000 marines in size for the whole Imperium but you have an entire codex dedicated to them.

 Grimskul wrote:

Techpriestsupport wrote:
That wouldn't. Satisfy some. People. Also the sisters are supposed to be fairly low in numbers. I once heard that are like far less than a million in the imeprium since each once by tradition has to go to terra to take their vows. Before the emperor.

And how numerous as the SoS?

The numbers reason is a pretty bad one IMO. Grey Knights are only about 1000 marines in size for the whole Imperium but you have an entire codex dedicated to them.

See also any named Chapter of Space Marines, with the exception of the Black Templars (assuming that bit of background about the Templars hasn't been retconned).

I'm pretty sure a novel retconned, some people flipped out and then we all forgot about it.

pm713 wrote:
I'm pretty sure a novel retconned, some people flipped out and then we all forgot about it.

Didn't the same one retcon them to be emperor worshippers too?

Niiai wrote:Sisters of battle differ a lot form SM though do they not?

- S3T3 vs S4T4 Gameplay mechanic, and I also addressed this as "Space Marines being gene-forged and Sisters getting holy power". I'm aware of this, but the point was that they got their superhuman powers from difference sources, but still had that power.
- Sisters exclusivly use bolters or melta based ranged weapons. Space Marine has a wider repotar including lascannons, plasma, autocannons etc. (This might be from the old days when 4th edition codexes where very narrowly focused and could be changed) Have you considered that Sister have so little in the way of equipment because they have hardly any models? This is something that I'd want to change when I gave Sisters their updated army - which would fix this "problem".
- Sisters ingame are justefied by a literal interpretation that so and such should have no armies of menn, and then make an armie out of wimen. SM are mass produced warriors. So you're saying that there's a lore reason why men can't be Sororitas, but none as to why women can't be Space Marines?

The fluff "contrivances" as you put it, are equally contrived. However, I take umbrage at Space Marines being "mass produced warriors" when there are more Sisters than Astartes, and the reason why women can't be Astartes is because they're clearly NOT mass produced.
- Sisters use faith magic. SM do not. Again, I addressed this - Sisters use faith, Astartes use genetic engineering. The point was that they both have superhuman power, obtained in different means.
- Sisters are recruited from a young age and are brainwashed in a convent. SM are recruited from a young age and are geneticly re-enginered, Space Marines are also brainwashed. Sisters are taught to call upon the power of the Emperor.

So yeah - they're exactly the same. Let's compare:
Recruited at a young age, brainwashed/indoctrinated, and given the source of their superhuman power.
Recruited at a young age, brainwashed/indoctrinated, and given the source of their superhuman power.

Which is which? Oh yeah - they're the same.

Now you can look at the similareties that you point out and say they are similar. You can look at what I point out and you can see they are different. Just because they overlap in some parts does not mean they are the same. When people say MEQ on these forums, that usualy means general strategies against power armour and rhinoes. As opposed to 5+ saves and russes, or shuriken weapons and grav tanks. MEQ is an abriviated shorthand that strategies against power armour and rhinoes, but it does not meen they are similar. Even between marine armies, like chaos berserker lists vary a lot as opposed to guliman gunlines. I do not find sisters similar to marines.

Did you actually look at any of my points?

Still, allow me to reply to yours, in red.

As I prove, the differences are far smaller than the similarities.

As for MEQ - which non-Astartes faction in the game comes closest to being counted as an MEQ? Seriously, who else? Sisters have the same armour, similar weapons toolbox, similar statlines, except a few outliers (which, I might add, Primaris Marines ALSO have statline differences to normal Space Marines. Does that make Primaris not Space Marines?) and a similar aesthetic and vehicle pool.

So, Sisters are probably the closest to Space Marines you'll get without actual Space Marines.

Ludoistsisk means gameplay yes. And ludoistsisk sisters play very differently them SM. You can not call them the same. I also have zero experience with sisters from a ludoistisk perspektive, but know SM quite a lot. That means that from my perspective sisters might not as well exist for the argument that sisters already performs this function. Gw could change this probably, but no, I have no experience with sisters. The eralier comment about GSC is that it is much easier to collect GSC then sisters. Sisters just clung to their 4th edition codex, into a white wolf update in 5th edition, and then got an index in 8th edition. GSC has been out of the setting and back again and are in much better shape then sisters. My only relationship to sisters was from a computergame in 2008.

So your ENTIRE point hinges on this - that you know absolutely nothing about Sisters, refuse to learn or accept them in any way, despite them filling the exact role, barring the genetic modification, that you want.

Of COURSE GSC will be much easier to collect than Sisters - GW haven't given Sister plastic models or a proper codex in decades! That's like me saying "This new car is much easier to drive than this one which has been rusting for twenty years" - because the other one has been rusting away!

You're complaining that Sisters are hard to collect because they don't have anything - that's exactly the problem I'm proposing we fix!

And you are right, you can probably retcon sisters of battle to be compatable with several cultures. That would involve much more work from GW, making models, rules etc, As opposed to just make a head swap spruce. It would also involve actually releasing sisters.

It wouldn't take ANY work.

Firstly, no retconning is needed. Sisters fit other cultures just fine already. Nothing prevents it, unlike females being Space Marines.

Making models is what they should be doing ANYWAY, not even to solve this. Plastic Sisters should be on their to-do list regardless - why not kill two birds with one stone?
Rules don't factor into this at all - seeing as everyone is getting Chapter Tactics equivalents, Sisters would be getting this anyway. So no extra effort there.

You're making it sound like Sisters shouldn't be updated at all, like THAT'S the default. Whereas most people would agree that Sisters getting an update is LONG overdue.

But I stil do not see what sisters existence or non-existence in the setting has anything to do with why we can not have female based SM. I think we are mostly will have to end up agreeing that I do not understand you and you do not understand me.

Because Sisters already fill the gap you want to fill with the Female Space Marines!

If Sisters DIDN'T exist, then I'd support you, but considering that they fully exist in the lore, and fulfil exactly the same, barring the mutations, that a Space Marine does, they why shouldn't be be using existing resources?

It would be like having a hole in a wall, and a brick that fits it, and one that doesn't. What you're proposing is taking the brick that doesn't fit, and changing it so it does, instead of taking the existing brick that fits and using that instead.

It's a sheer neglect of Sisters that seems to be your issue.

Can I ask you how big of a change it would be to have SM compatable with females on a scale of one to ten?

Just to make some points on the scale.
1. -Writing some backstory in a codex.
2. - introducing a new unit and retconning to always have been there (think all new monsters in the nud codex since 4th edition)
7. - Major change to one race in the setting. 5th edition necrons or introducing a new race into the setting.
8. - Major change in the setting, like the 100 year jump to 8th edition.
10. - A total rewamp of the setting, like they do in Age of Sigmar

So on that scale, for me, having SM being combatable with females would be a 1 or 2 on the scale. Would you rate it hiegher? Is it like a 7 in your eyes?

This isn't about how easy it is.
It's about which one solves the most problems without causing more.

Giving Sisters plastic models is something that people have wanted for decades, and has long been overdue. From what I gather, very few people will be offended if Sisters are given models, and more will want it.
On the other hand, retconning Marines is firstly, a retcon, which annoys many people, secondly, creates an inconsistency with legacy armies (for example, adding Centurions into Space Marine armeis meant that any previously "complete" Battle Company or Assault or Devastator Company now would be lacking a unit that they should probably have access to for no reason. If this were female marines, and assuming that females would be recognizably so, then any bare-headed Marine would be suspiciously all male.) Thirdly, there is a push against female marines, but very few people push back against updating an existing army.

Therefore, from a lore perspective, updating Sisters is a 1. Updating Space Marines is a 7, maybe an 8, depending on how implemented.

From a meta perspective, Space Marines is lower, due to only adding an upgrade sprue. However, Sisters, whilst higher up, is more worth it, because you're updating a model line that has been clamoured for and wanted for several decades, and will undoubtedly create a surge of popularity for them.

If this was a case of redoing the entire Space Marine line vs redoing the entire Sisters line, Sisters would be preferably every time, due to the fact Space Marines have very recently had new kits.

Techpriestsupport wrote:That wouldn't. Satisfy some. People. Also the sisters are supposed to be fairly low in numbers. I once heard that are like far less than a million in the imeprium since each once by tradition has to go to terra to take their vows. Before the emperor.

And how numerous as the SoS?

There are more Sisters in one large Order than there are Space Marines in the galaxy. And yet we have entire Codexes dedicated to Chapters that are below 1000 men.
So yeah, plenty of Sisters to go around.

SoS are, however, very few - I believe there's more Grey Knights than Sisters of Silence.

So, if you have answered my question as to "Why are Space Marines better at filling the "female super soldier" role than Sisters of Battle, without mentioning popularity", it seems to be:
"Because I don't actually care about Sisters of Battle."

Which I think is a frankly close-minded point of view to have.

Yeah, we are not seing eye to eye on this.

 Niiai wrote:
Yeah, we are not seing eye to eye on this.

Hey, keep in mind you were the one who said you were going to leave the conversation and then came back to start it again. Without properly addressing the previous (and now current) valid points mind you.

I was a big part of the discourse going in circle. When people progressed the conversation I thought ir reasonable to jump in again.

It's okay to admit you're wrong, you know.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
It's okay to admit you're wrong, you know.

It is wrong to admit that when you are not wrong though. We have a point of view sared by some, and one point of view shared by others. Engaging in dialog and understanding the other part is a good way to deal with different opinions. As long as we are sharing this particular culture having a better understanding of others opinion on it will help us co-exist.

Or are you under the opinion that there is only one right awnser to this subject? That's a bit odd. "[... Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."

Niiai has now accepted that we're taking about opinions? That is progress.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Niiai has now accepted that we're taking about opinions? That is progress.

I stil think you can have an objective qualiy assessement as long as you agree on a basis premisse. Including an examination of apolegetics for not having SM based on females.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Niiai has now accepted that we're taking about opinions? That is progress.

Isn't it just

Well, I shouldn't have said anything.

 Niiai wrote:


It is wrong to admit that when you are not wrong though. We have a point of view sared by some, and one point of view shared by others. Engaging in dialog and understanding the other part is a good way to deal with different opinions. As long as we are sharing this particular culture having a better understanding of others opinion on it will help us co-exist.

And ludoistsisk sisters play very differently them SM. You can not call them the same.

Yeah, I am not convinced by that argument as good

I find the given reson quite bad.

I do not think you debunked them. You made some arguments but they where not very valid arguments awnsering the problems you where debating.

Buttom line is there are many bad arguments for not having space marines based on females, but not any good once.

the side I am on is the default postion.

Well I will grant you the argument 'because there are currently no female space marines' is the current best argument for why there can be no female space marines, but it is not a good argument.

All I want is one good argument... so far none has been presented.

If you claim sisters of battle are just as diverse as space marines, or as well represented in the setting you are just lying.

And all of these are you "understanding" other people's opinions?

I mean, calling other people's opinions and reasons "bad" - am I allowed to say that to you?
After all, you seem to be just fine with saying that all the other reasons are "bad". Am I allowed to call your answer to my question bad? Because I must admit, I find it very unsatisfying that the only reason you don't agree with my idea is because you haven't considered Sisters of Battle at all.

I can't say you're wrong, but you seem happy to say that to others.

In fairness, some of this may be a language barrier thing, and not being able to use quite the right word to express what he's thinking.

Still, at the end of the day, all we are talking about is whether or not we'd like Space Marines to be made from females, and why we would or wouldn't like it. There isn't really a good "argument" for that. It's like demanding someone give you one good reason why they don't like to eat peas. And they won't accept "I don't like the taste" as a valid reason.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
In fairness, some of this may be a language barrier thing, and not being able to use quite the right word to express what he's thinking.

Still, at the end of the day, all we are talking about is whether or not we'd like Space Marines to be made from females, and why we would or wouldn't like it. There isn't really a good "argument" for that. It's like demanding someone give you one good reason why they don't like to eat peas. And they won't accept "I don't like the taste" as a valid reason.

Exactly.

The ONLY thing that is free from opinion and conjecture is that the lore says no. Everything beyond that is opinions and reasons clashing.

If you do not like eating peas, saying 'I do not like the taste' is a very good argument. But it is hardly an argument for why nobody should eat peas. They might not share you aestetic experince of eating peas.

But here is am example where I mean you can say objectivly good or bad:

I ask for apolegetics to why we can not have SM based upon females. And one of the reasons given is 'It is based upon Paradise Lost, where and the SM are representing the angels that are male.' This argument hinges upon the fact that it is based upon paradise lost and that the angels are male. First of, weather it even is based upon paradise lost is unclear. Second, the angels in paradise lost are gender fluid and apear as male and female and even male and female at the same time. Then that argument is objectivly a bad argument, because facts the argument hinges on are in fact not true.

If the argument SM can not be based upon females because it is not currently in the setting. Then that is true for now because the setting states it. But we have much evedence of the setting changing many times, both within the setting but also outside the setting. Could this happen with regards to SM not being able to be based upon females? Yes. Well then that is not a good argument of weather SM can be based upon females at some point in the future.

 Niiai wrote:
If you do not like eating peas, saying 'I do not like the taste' is a very good argument. But it is hardly an argument for why nobody should eat peas. They might not share you aestetic experince of eating peas.

Same as many people might not agree with your opinions. Still just opinions.

But here is am example where I mean you can say objectivly good or bad:

I ask for apolegetics to why we can not have SM based upon females. And one of the reasons given is 'It is based upon Paradise Lost, where and the SM are representing the angels that are male.' This argument hinges upon the fact that it is based upon paradise lost and that the angels are male. First of, weather it even is based upon paradise lost is unclear. Second, the angels in paradise lost are gender fluid and apear as male and female and even male and female at the same time. Then that argument is objectivly a bad argument, because facts the argument hinges on are in fact not true.

Yes, but unless you dedicated all 9 of my points to that, it still stands that you claim many things as "objectively good or bad". Especially seeing as many were my points.

If the argument SM can not be based upon females because it is not currently in the setting. Then that is true for now because the setting states it. But we have much evedence of the setting changing many times, both within the setting but also outside the setting. Could this happen with regards to SM not being able to be based upon females? Yes. Well then that is not a good argument of weather SM can be based upon females at some point in the future.

The problem with this argument is that it makes ANY lore discussion completely irrelevant, because someone can turn around and say "well, the lore's changed before, so your point doesn't work".

Under these terms, I can claim absolutely anything, because "the lore's changed before".

 Niiai wrote:
If you do not like eating peas, saying 'I do not like the taste' is a very good argument. But it is hardly an argument for why nobody should eat peas. They might not share you aestetic experince of eating peas.

As a person who would not mind female marines, I still have to say this to you: what one finds central to 'theme' of Space Marines is pretty much a matter to taste. Some may find the maleness being thematically important while others do not. Granted, finding the maleness important has probably a lot to do with that this how it has been for decades and people are used to it, but even realising this does't change how the people feel, just like if you realising that you like peas because that's what your gradma used to feed you when you were a kid doesn't change you liking peas.

I ask for apolegetics to why we can not have SM based upon females. And one of the reasons given is 'It is based upon Paradise Lost, where and the SM are representing the angels that are male.' This argument hinges upon the fact that it is based upon paradise lost and that the angels are male. First of, weather it even is based upon paradise lost is unclear. Second, the angels in paradise lost are gender fluid and apear as male and female and even male and female at the same time. Then that argument is objectivly a bad argument, because facts the argument hinges on are in fact not true.

That person probably just feels Space Marines should be male because they're used to it being so, and then tries to rationalise that really, really badly.

Right. So you want the setting to change to have female marines. No matter what reasons you have for wanting that, your reasons aren't going to make everyone else want the setting to change to have female marines. Because other people have reason why they wouldn't like it.

Try to convince someone who doesn't like peas that they should like peas just because you like peas. It's kind of a waste of time. Especially if you mostly just tell them that their reasons for not liking peas aren't very good arguments. It's not really an argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think we can all agree that there are no female marines in the current setting. I think we can also all agree that the setting could hypothetically be changed to be different in any way one could imagine. Obviously the difference of opinion is whether or not we'd like them to make that change.

Yes, but there could be reasons for not having female basedvspace marines that could prevent that from happening in the future. For instance if the Paradise Lost argument was more valid, that could be more of a reason. I think (and I have no evidence to prove this) that the reason is because of social norms in the time when that particular part of the setting was written.

I will agree that it hurts the symetry between having 1 imperium male faction and 1 imperial female faction. (Although the female faction features males in roles.) But Sisters of Battle have enough distinct personalaty removing the symetry would not harm their identety in any meaningfull way. There are more to sisters then just an monopoly on the Y cromosome and a suit of power armour.

There could be a reason that is good that I had not thought of, and I thank you all for helping me trying to find it.

I feel that the biggest take away from all of this is how big such a change would be. Although only Sgt_Smudge awnsered my ten point scale question I am shocked that he think female SM is a seven, while I think of it only a one or two. It clearly tells me how much Sgt_Smudge opposes this idea, and why I do not see a problem with it. I think the more interesting question that follows would be why I value it as a one or two, and he values it at a seven. You others have not chimed in, but I feel it would be great to hear.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The problem with this argument is that it makes ANY lore discussion completely irrelevant, because someone can turn around and say "well, the lore's changed before, so your point doesn't work".

Under these terms, I can claim absolutely anything, because "the lore's changed before".

This is not true of all arguments though. For instance Slanesh has had little suport, and he/she has disapeared quite a bit in the fantasy setting. There are good reasons for not removing Slanesh in 40K. You have huge plot holes in the back story. No eye or terror, the eldars have no fall, you would need to re-write all eldar back story, and the backstory of 40K entierly. The emperor children will be void etc. etc.

Like vice removing chaos entierly is not something you can do without ruiening the entier setting. Compare that to removing say the Tau? The Tau can for the most part be removed relativaly easy. You would need to patch up some things, like every battle the Tau took part in, hive fleet gorgons backstory etc. etc. But it could be done, as opposed to say remove slanesh.

Incoperating SM being based upon female is relativaly easy. Why do you think it is such a big change in the setting as opposed to a small change? (Yes we all know Formosa is gonne post a wall of text with Damonculaba in it.)

@Sgt_Smudge what 9 points are you talking about BTW: Are they these?

@Niiai

See, you're going into a circle again, we've already pointed out the ramifications of what hamfisting female space marines does to the fluff, as unlike your example of Tau, it means we have to rewrite the entirety of 30k-40k if you try to include it from the beginning. Similarly, if its later in the timeline by the miracle of Cawl or some other 40k magos, it undermines the previous fluff and the Emperor's work when someone could have just come along the whole time and wave a wand and throw girls into the mix. It also leads to a slippery slope of potentially allowing marines to reproduce, which you vehemently reject, but have no basis to if women become marines as well.

You already acknowledge the Daemonculaba, which is canon, yet handwave off it....because? You don't like it? Because that's what we're arguing with you right now, you have no more justification than we do and frankly its more trouble than its worth than just supporting sisters of battle. Just head-canon your own fem-marines for your army and call it a day.

 Grimskul wrote:
Similarly, if its later in the timeline by the miracle of Cawl or some other 40k magos, it undermines the previous fluff and the Emperor's work when someone could have just come along the whole time and wave a wand and throw girls into the mix.

Yeah, it would be terrible if they just invented some never before heard tech-priest out of thin air, that could suddenly improve on Emperor's work... GW would never do such a thing, it would totally ruin the entire setting!