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Well, FLG specifically called them "predator autocannons" in their stream today.

If that's true, that's 4d3 S7 ap-1 3d shots each Helliger.

Hopefully assault predator autocannons so their mobility isn’t a waste outside of one house then.

changemod wrote:
There’s some people claiming on tg that the armiger autocannons are equivalent to a reaper autocannon, but I’m assuming that’s trolling.

Autocannon: 48 H2 7 -1 2
Reaper: 36 H4 7 -1 1
Avenger: 36 H12 6 -2 2
Icarus: 48 H4 7 -1 2
Predator: 48 H2D3 7 -1 3
Heavy Bolter: 36 H3 5 -1 1

I could see something like the Reaper for the Helverin. I'm imagining something stronger than a Heavy Bolter and regular Autocannon but weeker than the Predator. That puts it right at the Reaper, though maybe slightly lower in strength.

And that would make me happy.

I feel like Helligers want to hunker down and shoot, where as Armigers are going to be the mobile ones.

It's unfortunate, but my gut feeling on the difference outside of the guns.

 drazz wrote:

changemod wrote:
There’s some people claiming on tg that the armiger autocannons are equivalent to a reaper autocannon, but I’m assuming that’s trolling.

Autocannon: 48 H2 7 -1 2
Reaper: 36 H4 7 -1 1
Avenger: 36 H12 6 -2 2
Icarus: 48 H4 7 -1 2
Predator: 48 H2D3 7 -1 3
Heavy Bolter: 36 H3 5 -1 1

I could see something like the Reaper for the Helverin. I'm imagining something stronger than a Heavy Bolter and regular Autocannon but weeker than the Predator. That puts it right at the Reaper, though maybe slightly lower in strength.

And that would make me happy.

Reapers are equivalent in strength to autocannons, not stronger. Double shots but half damage.

Reapers are trash unfortunately. St7 AP -1 and D1 is just not a useful stat line, even with 4 shots. They'd have to be super cheap to be worthwhile. If they are d2 then it's solid.

The madmen did it and brought back Renegade?! Aww yiss, but now I have to put my money where my mouth is and split one with my brother.

The combination of a Knight torso on the Lord of Skulls to make a giant pus factory with "Melta" slime gun or something like that is very tempting though. Would be a huge €€€ investment as well as time... and what would I do with a Khytan engine from the leftovers, my truescale WEs are only five man strong.

PiñaColada wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
What needs to be fixed about the Reaper and Thunderstrike gauntlet?

Personally, both the chassis and most of the weapons going down in point cost is already a massive fix for the army.

They're okay. But so much worse than just more guns. The feet are actually pretty good so the justification for close combat weapons isn't really there IMO

Knights should have 6 attacks and the feet should be 2x number of attacks. So you get as many feet attacks but the weapons get substantially better

Guantlet should do an additional 1d3 mortal wounds if it does any damage representing picking the model up and slamming it in place rather then tossing it somewhere else when it’s original target dies. This makes the guantlet better then feet in specific cases where mortal wounds are better.

The chainsword should do 3 individual wounds of 2 damage to a unit for each unsuccessful save making it significantly better then feet vs hordes.

In other words 3 melee choices
1 does token d3 mortal wounds
1 does lots of hits less chance to wound but potentially lots of damage
1 does less hits better chance to wound but consistent damage on several models

On GEQ use feet, on TEQ use sword, on vehicles and monstrous use fist.

I think the suggestion of giving knights 6 attacks and lettting the feet do 2x that instead of 3x would be best. Right now the feet are as good as or better than other weapons against virtually any target. Crusaders are therefore the best knights by far, and the gap will probably grow if guns get cheaper. CCWs need to be basically free now to compete at all.

Mandragola wrote:
I think the suggestion of giving knights 6 attacks and lettting the feet do 2x that instead of 3x would be best. Right now the feet are as good as or better than other weapons against virtually any target. Crusaders are therefore the best knights by far, and the gap will probably grow if guns get cheaper. CCWs need to be basically free now to compete at all.

that works but I still think the guantlet should do 1d3 mortal wounds to vehicles and monstrous creatures.

Will Knights in this book be Questor Imperialis or Questor Mechanicus or both/either?

 ph34r wrote:
Will Knights in this book be Questor Imperialis or Questor Mechanicus or both/either?

They've listed Mechanicus, and Questor houses, so I'd say it's safe to say both.

So anyone else thinking that the Lancer has become an awesome warlord choice? An imperial knight with a 3++ invuln that becomes a 2++ in melee.

Ha. Haha. HAHAHAHHAHAHAH.

<edit>
So, if this is indeed possible (WLT + rotate), Will Knight Lancer warlords be the new Most Annoying Bullgack? With the gigantic pile of rules it has to start with, in addition to however else the knight titan rule changes in the codex, I'm struggling to think of a way to fight this thing. 27 wounds protected by a 3/2++ with autosimulacra is kinda crazy. If there is some sort of regen lost wounds relic or something that grants a real FNP, basically the only thing I can think of off hand that can somewhat efficiently kill it is Magnus, who will likely get rekt due to the knight being faster and hitting like several angry freight trains. Combined with the alleged Mortan house trait, this thing could be the bad kind of monster. Like, Superfriends Thunderwolf Deathstar kind of monster.

<edit 2>
So thing two that can kinda hurt him. Exalted Champion with murder sword with MoK, who is near a Black Legion warlord. Fury of khorne and hope for a crapload of 5+ for exploding dice. Even then, with perfect rolls (everything hit with a 5+ on the roll) you are doing 16 mortal wounds to it. More likely is, you do 5-6, then the Knight player interrupts and splats the EC with a single hit.

Imagine if Terryn gets an advance and charge strat, too. That thing is flying across the table.

If there is a relic that boosts the Ion shield to 4+ then that's awesome. I'm not sure it will affect the Lancer though because it doesn't have an Ion shield........... It has an Ion gauntlet shield. :/ I guess we'll see soon enough in either case.

Slightly confused with that Cawl comment making the Dominus' Plasma weapon awesome though.

It's not a relic, its a warlord trait that just adds 1 to their invulnerable save. And the stratagem just says "pick a knight that has been targeted, improve its invuln by 1".

StarHunter25 wrote:
So anyone else thinking that the Lancer has become an awesome warlord choice? An imperial knight with a 3++ invuln that becomes a 2++ in melee.

Ha. Haha. HAHAHAHHAHAHAH.

<edit>
So, if this is indeed possible (WLT + rotate), Will Knight Lancer warlords be the new Most Annoying Bullgack? With the gigantic pile of rules it has to start with, in addition to however else the knight titan rule changes in the codex, I'm struggling to think of a way to fight this thing. 27 wounds protected by a 3/2++ with autosimulacra is kinda crazy. If there is some sort of regen lost wounds relic or something that grants a real FNP, basically the only thing I can think of off hand that can somewhat efficiently kill it is Magnus, who will likely get rekt due to the knight being faster and hitting like several angry freight trains. Combined with the alleged Mortan house trait, this thing could be the bad kind of monster. Like, Superfriends Thunderwolf Deathstar kind of monster.

<edit 2>
So thing two that can kinda hurt him. Exalted Champion with murder sword with MoK, who is near a Black Legion warlord. Fury of khorne and hope for a crapload of 5+ for exploding dice. Even then, with perfect rolls (everything hit with a 5+ on the roll) you are doing 16 mortal wounds to it. More likely is, you do 5-6, then the Knight player interrupts and splats the EC with a single hit.

Even if it turns out to be allowed, a knight lancer isn’t going to be magically useful just because it has a 2++, merely unkillable.

I agree. However, it is the ultimate Distraction Carnifex. Ignore it and it'll kill your big important stuff and/or backfield units. Target it and it'll just shrug off your attacks then regenerate. On top of the speed it gets.
If the +1 invuln warlord trait isn't house specific, Terryn Lancers will be insane. 3d6 dropping the lowest for advance and charge. If they also get an advance + charge stratagem idk if there is anything to stop them from hitting your backfield. 14" + 6d6 (18-38") drop the two lowest is an insane threat range. How many things that swing at s14 ap-4 dam6 can reliably move 34" a turn? Even without advance + charge, an average 23" charge threat turn 1 is incredible.

It's not insane it's just neat. For 480 points having a giant mech kick itself across the table and take out a high value target every turn while refusing to die is pretty neat.

 djones520 wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Will Knights in this book be Questor Imperialis or Questor Mechanicus or both/either?

They've listed Mechanicus, and Questor houses, so I'd say it's safe to say both.

Do you think we will encounter problems fielding a Questoris Styrix or Questoris Magaera given that they have no choice and are only Questor Imperialis?

StarHunter25 wrote:
I agree. However, it is the ultimate Distraction Carnifex. Ignore it and it'll kill your big important stuff and/or backfield units. Target it and it'll just shrug off your attacks then regenerate. On top of the speed it gets.
If the +1 invuln warlord trait isn't house specific, Terryn Lancers will be insane. 3d6 dropping the lowest for advance and charge. If they also get an advance + charge stratagem idk if there is anything to stop them from hitting your backfield. 14" + 6d6 (18-38") drop the two lowest is an insane threat range. How many things that swing at s14 ap-4 dam6 can reliably move 34" a turn? Even without advance + charge, an average 23" charge threat turn 1 is incredible.

No matter your max charge distance, you can't declare charges over 12" away I believe.

He's saying that's the average range it will move and charge in a single turn.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
He's saying that's the average range it will move and charge in a single turn.

Riiiiight, but it can't ACTUALLY charge that average because charge distance is capped at 12" if you can't declare on things more than 12" away. So 14" move + 12" Charge.

The premise above is that there is an advance and charge strat.

Audustum wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
He's saying that's the average range it will move and charge in a single turn.

Riiiiight, but it can't ACTUALLY charge that average because charge distance is capped at 12" if you can't declare on things more than 12" away. So 14" move + 12" Charge.

I think you're misunderstanding.

The model has a 14 inch move.
It advances 3d6, averaging about 9.

It moves a total of 23.

Now it can charge something up to 12, with an average roll of around 5-7.

It has an average threat range of a reliable high twenty low thirty inch success rate for move and charge.

IF, in the context of this discussion, it can advance and charge. It's hypothetical.

I’m honestly thinking/ hoping there will be a strat for a knight to come in via a different board edge.

 drazz wrote:
I’m honestly thinking/ hoping there will be a way to play a Chaos knight with double flamer weapons.

There you go. Fixed it for you

 drazz wrote:
I’m honestly thinking/ hoping there will be a strat for a knight to come in via a different board edge.

I'm not. they are so expensive I want them from T1 shooting. By turn 3-4 game is generally over anyway

I'm honestly expecting Chaos Knights to get absolutely nothing from this codex, perhaps not even a FAQ to lower their price. Ok that would really suck hopefully any hull reductions they will get also. Definitely don't think they will get castellans and armigers.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
He's saying that's the average range it will move and charge in a single turn.

Riiiiight, but it can't ACTUALLY charge that average because charge distance is capped at 12" if you can't declare on things more than 12" away. So 14" move + 12" Charge.

I think you're misunderstanding.

The model has a 14 inch move.
It advances 3d6, averaging about 9.

It moves a total of 23.

Now it can charge something up to 12, with an average roll of around 5-7.

It has an average threat range of a reliable high twenty low thirty inch success rate for move and charge.

IF, in the context of this discussion, it can advance and charge. It's hypothetical.

There we go. Your first reply to me just said move + charge so I discounted advancing.

Still, I doubt we get the ability to Advance and Charge. GW seems to want to save that for fleet-footed archtypes.