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pm713 wrote: But if there was nobody else around to seriously challenge them then who were they too weak to face?
Right now they're incredibly strong so what changed?
There are just so many things that don't make sense.
It doesn't make much sense, the Necron fluff is just terrible.
But they were afraid of Eldar and their gods. Eldar gods were really powerful at that period, Khaine fought and defeated Nightbringer.
You are citing Eldar mythology with nothing else to support it.
The Nightbringer was feeding on all the races of the galaxy and planting a fear of death into every race. Then the Necrons defeat the C'Tan and sealed him away. The Ancient Eldar then interpreted that as a myth of their god of war defeating death.
The Crons and the C'tan have never been afraid of anything and the Eldar never put the Necrons on the run.
You're citing Necron mythology.
Mythology backed by other sources. You see, the nightbringer isn't running rampant around the galaxy. Every race except the Orks have myths of some Death, grim reaper entitiy that they all inherently fear. And Shards of the Nightbringer are sealed up by the necrons inside their teseract vaults.
Right now in the modern day of 40k there is evidence to support what happened with the crons. The Eldar aint got gak from the war in heaven.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Way back when the Necrons were first released ( 2nd edition) there stories in the WD about how the Eldar where warning the Imperium not to go venture on to certain planets as it would awaken the sleeping ones.
Low and begold, it did. Hence the Necrons woke up. The Eldar feared the Necrons, and rightly so.
I'm sure they did fear them! But Necrons feared the Eldar as well logically realised that it would not be productive to continue to fight the Eldar.
It's important to remember that the Eldar and orks were still being developed during the war in heaven. They were essentially a unfinished project of the old ones.
They never really got the numbers or advancement needed to fight in any meaningful way during the war in heaven.
When the crons went to sleep the eldar and orks were like mankind before they left Terra. It was only in the Crons absence that the Eldar grew to dominate because they were uplifted so high by the Oldones. Keep in mind that a LOT of eldar tech is Old Ones tech. The webway wasn't built by the eldar. It was inherited from the old ones in their absence and the absence of any other force to contest it. And they claimed it uncontested because the necrons went to go take their nap.
Like it or not, the eldar rose to power relatively uncontested because they were so insignificant at the end of the war in heaven that they wern't worth thinking about stamping out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/28 20:46:21
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Mythology backed by other sources. You see, the nightbringer isn't running rampant around the galaxy. Every race except the Orks have myths of some Death, grim reaper entitiy that they all inherently fear. And Shards of the Nightbringer are sealed up by the necrons inside their teseract vaults.
What does this has to do with anything?
Right now in the modern day of 40k there is evidence to support what happened with the crons.
They went in hiding for millions of years because they were so afraid of the Eldar and they finally have mustered the courage to show their ugly metal faces again when the Eldar Empire has been gone for several millennia?
Way back when the Necrons were first released ( 2nd edition) there stories in the WD about how the Eldar where warning the Imperium not to go venture on to certain planets as it would awaken the sleeping ones.
Low and begold, it did. Hence the Necrons woke up. The Eldar feared the Necrons, and rightly so.
I'm sure they did fear them! But Necrons feared the Eldar as well logically realised that it would not be productive to continue to fight the Eldar.
Nope, remember how in Eldar Mythology during the war in heaven Khaine asked Vaul to make those 1,000 swords? And as they were some that were imperfect Khaine lost the war in heaven, that was the Deceiver, a being that has played both sides during the war in heaven to further its own agenda.
The C'tan and their servants: Necrons didn't fear the Eldar, but were worried that due to them bring in the Warp would threaten their food supply. It wasn't anything inheret in the Eldar's doing, but rather a side effect even the Old Ones hadn't forseen. Hence them leaving the background of both 40k and WFB.
The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused.
Nope, remember how in Eldar Mythology during the war in heaven Khaine asked Vaul to make those 1,000 swords? And as they were some that were imperfect Khaine lost the war in heaven, that was the Deceiver, a being that has played both sides during the war in heaven to further its own agenda.
No, I don't remember that. I however remember Vaul promising to make hundred swords for Khaine, making only 99 and substituting a mortal made blade for the last one. This enraged Khaine, thus resulting the War in Heaven. Vaul made the last sword, Anaris, which was the mightiest sword ever made. Despite Vaul, and Later Eldanesh wielding Anaris, Khaine beat them both, winning the War in Heaven. Oh, and Nightbringer and his C'tan buddies were also somehow involved, but that was a minor distraction, Khaine fought them too and won (that was probably for which he originally wanted those hundred swords for.)
The C'tan and their servants: Necrons didn't fear the Eldar, but were worried that due to them bring in the Warp would threaten their food supply. It wasn't anything inheret in the Eldar's doing, but rather a side effect even the Old Ones hadn't forseen. Hence them leaving the background of both 40k and WFB.
So basically they were afraid of the Eldar gods. Because that's who inhabited the warp back then.
So basically they were afraid of the Eldar gods. Because that's who inhabited the warp back then.
No, they didn't want to deal with the enslavers. Also literally all of the answers to your questions is in the link below, in mostly chronological order and with citations. The knowledge is yours for the taking:
So basically they were afraid of the Eldar gods. Because that's who inhabited the warp back then.
No, they didn't want to deal with the enslavers.
Funny how the Eldar didn't seem to have problems dealing with the Enslavers...
Also literally all of the answers to your questions is in the link below, in mostly chronological order and with citations. The knowledge is yours for the taking:
So basically they were afraid of the Eldar gods. Because that's who inhabited the warp back then.
No, they didn't want to deal with the enslavers.
Funny how the Eldar didn't seem to have problems dealing with the Enslavers...
Also literally all of the answers to your questions is in the link below, in mostly chronological order and with citations. The knowledge is yours for the taking:
Hey, people took the Horus Heresy fables seriously too, and now there is an entire separate game dedicated to that gak. If I have to deal with the Primarch myths taken seriously they you'll have to deal with the Eldar myths being taken seriously too!
How do you know that crimson? maybe the eldar took millions of years to fight off the enslaver plague, we just dont know.
Sure, maybe it took some effort. But the fact remains that the Eldar (somehow) dealt with the Enslavers, while the Necrons couldn't or wouldn't.
And yes, any site that brings a lot of sources together to try to get a good idea of what happened is a good source of lore, dont you use lexicanum?
It is handy, but probably better to take that sort of thing with a rain of salt. It is a lot of scattered tales from over the years, containing intentional and unintentional retcons presented together like they would form a coherent and concurrent narrative, while they really don't.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/28 21:55:04
Hey, people took the Horus Heresy fables seriously too, and now there is an entire separate game dedicated to that gak.
Off topic slightly, but I really hope that GW explore the ancient history of 40K as a game at some point, or even as a series of novels, just like the Horus Heresy has received.
The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused.
My general understanding is that chaos and by virtue of that, Khorne is the most powerful. Chaos is divided, yes, but thats beacuse they literally dont see anything else as a threat other than one another in their great game (a fact well established in canon). Every other time the chaos gods have acted in a unified manner, they've won - simple as. They are the defending champions with their foot on the throat of every species one way or another and even more so, they now have the full marketing might of GW supporting them. Tzeentch really does touch all...
Any source that is a collection of citations to support the information is infinitly more reliable then some guy on dakka who is claiming that eldar were the greatest and won the war in heaven. Not even a question.
The orks and eldar still exist today because they were so weak back then that they were not worth exterminating. On the other hand all the other warrior races the old ones used dont exist anymore. Because the necrons wiped them from the galaxy.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Semper wrote: My general understanding is that chaos and by virtue of that, Khorne is the most powerful. Chaos is divided, yes, but thats beacuse they literally dont see anything else as a threat other than one another in their great game (a fact well established in canon). Every other time the chaos gods have acted in a unified manner, they've won - simple as. They are the defending champions with their foot on the throat of every species one way or another and even more so, they now have the full marketing might of GW supporting them. Tzeentch really does touch all...
Gork or Mork are so far out of khornes league he'd need four gym badges a waiver from his doctor to challenge one of them to pokebattle. Orks are all powerfully psychic, and are the most numerous race in the galaxy, so their gods are ridiculously OP. One of them (mork I believe) took on all four of the chaos deities, and made a mockery of all four of them.
Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.
Hey, people took the Horus Heresy fables seriously too, and now there is an entire separate game dedicated to that gak. If I have to deal with the Primarch myths taken seriously they you'll have to deal with the Eldar myths being taken seriously too!
How do you know that crimson? maybe the eldar took millions of years to fight off the enslaver plague, we just dont know.
Sure, maybe it took some effort. But the fact remains that the Eldar (somehow) dealt with the Enslavers, while the Necrons couldn't or wouldn't.
And yes, any site that brings a lot of sources together to try to get a good idea of what happened is a good source of lore, dont you use lexicanum?
It is handy, but probably better to take that sort of thing with a rain of salt. It is a lot of scattered tales from over the years, containing intentional and unintentional retcons presented together like they would form a coherent and concurrent narrative, while they really don't.
Thats not remotely the same Crimson, we have first person and first hand accounts of the primarchs now, so we can see what was myth and what was true, so no, I dont have to take the Eldar alegories seriously
I can see how the Eldar dealt with the Enslavers eventually, while the Necrons could simply have assumed the Enslavers would kill off the minor races, so many reason why they could have gone into hiding, the tiny threat of the Eldar isnt one of them though.
Thats not what the link you were given is like though is it, you were given citations and quotes from reddit, so its credible, the site doesnt matter as long as the source is good.
Lance845 wrote: Any source that is a collection of citations to support the information is infinitly more reliable then some guy on dakka who is claiming that eldar were the greatest and won the war in heaven. Not even a question.
Those citations are correct, but the overall narrative built from there is speculation. Eldar did not 'win' the War in Heaven (well, Khaine did), but the Necrons didn't win either. And ultimately it was the Necrons which went hiding.
The orks and eldar still exist today because they were so weak back then that they were not worth exterminating. On the other hand all the other warrior races the old ones used dont exist anymore. Because the necrons wiped them from the galaxy.
Yet Eldar overcame the Enslavers, while the Necrons couldn't. Do you realise that at time Eldar had several warp gods on their side? Do you think Necrons would beat Nurgle or Khorne? It is probably the fact that the Eldar gods fought eachoter, which stopped them from annihilating the Necrons altogether.
Lance845 wrote: Any source that is a collection of citations to support the information is infinitly more reliable then some guy on dakka who is claiming that eldar were the greatest and won the war in heaven. Not even a question.
Those citations are correct, but the overall narrative built from there is speculation. Eldar did not 'win' the War in Heaven (well, Khaine did), but the Necrons didn't win either. And ultimately it was the Necrons which went hiding.
The orks and eldar still exist today because they were so weak back then that they were not worth exterminating. On the other hand all the other warrior races the old ones used dont exist anymore. Because the necrons wiped them from the galaxy.
Yet Eldar overcame the Enslavers, while the Necrons couldn't. Do you realise that at time Eldar had several warp gods on their side? Do you think Necrons would beat Nurgle or Khorne? It is probably the fact that the Eldar gods fought eachoter, which stopped them from annihilating the Necrons altogether.
Necrons won the war, not sure how you think otherwise, Eldar were SURVIVORS, not winners.
Eldar also likely SURVIVED enslavers too, you say they had several warp gods on their side, I say they had several powerful Eldar warriors that were later interpreted at gods, and funnily enough you cant prove otherwise
Lance845 wrote: Any source that is a collection of citations to support the information is infinitly more reliable then some guy on dakka who is claiming that eldar were the greatest and won the war in heaven. Not even a question.
Those citations are correct, but the overall narrative built from there is speculation. Eldar did not 'win' the War in Heaven (well, Khaine did), but the Necrons didn't win either. And ultimately it was the Necrons which went hiding.
The orks and eldar still exist today because they were so weak back then that they were not worth exterminating. On the other hand all the other warrior races the old ones used dont exist anymore. Because the necrons wiped them from the galaxy.
Yet Eldar overcame the Enslavers, while the Necrons couldn't. Do you realise that at time Eldar had several warp gods on their side? Do you think Necrons would beat Nurgle or Khorne? It is probably the fact that the Eldar gods fought eachoter, which stopped them from annihilating the Necrons altogether.
Except the necrons never went hiding. They DID win the war in heaven and then the battle against the c'tan after.khaine didnt win gak.
The enslavers were not a problem for the necrons. The thing about having your souls devourered by the c'tan with bio transference is it basiacally makes you immune to psychic parasites who were attacking psychic races. Which the necrotyre were not (as far as anyone can tell). And the necrons cannot be.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
That's not remotely the same Crimson, we have first person and first hand accounts of the primarchs now, so we can see what was myth and what was true, so no, I dont have to take the Eldar alegories seriously
They're literally all stories some people in England made up. The format in which they're written really doesn't affect how 'real' the events are. There are 'first hand accounts' of a lot of historiacal things that blatantly are not true. Marco Polo describes seeing dragons. Hell, you can find first hand accounts of ghosts and aliens from the internet right now!
I can see how the Eldar dealt with the Enslavers eventually, while the Necrons could simply have assumed the Enslavers would kill off the minor races, so many reason why they could have gone into hiding, the tiny threat of the Eldar isnt one of them though.
Frankly, the whole thing doesn't make any sense. The Necrons could beat the Old Ones and then kill the C'Tans, yet couldn't deal with the Enslavers while the supposedly insignificant Eldar could. The whole Necron side account of the events really sound like some after the fact justification of why you 'really won', and totally just chose to take a nap for reasons. "You can't fire me, I quit!" Sure, buddy...
Thats not what the link you were given is like though is it, you were given citations and quotes from reddit, so its credible, the site doesnt matter as long as the source is good.
Sure, the citations are accurate, but the narrative created upon them is speculation.
They did. For 60 million yeas. You gotta be pretty damn scared to do that.
They DID win the war in heaven and then the battle against the c'tan after.khaine didnt win gak.
They won, and then just decided to go hiding for no reason... Sure...
And Khaine won the War in Heaven by defeating Vaul. Khaine also fought the Yngir (C'tan). Perhaps that's how the Necrons were able to backstab the C'tan, they were weakened from fighting Khaine.
The enslavers were not a problem for the necrons. The thing about having your souls devourered by the c'tan with bio transference is it basiacally makes you immune to psychic parasites who were attacking psychic races. Which the necrotyre were not (as far as anyone can tell). And the necrons cannot be.
Right. So they were not afraid of the Enslavers, must be that they were afraid of the Eldar then!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/28 22:48:37
Still cannon, plus necrons also have black holes, starkillers, can turn off fundamental forces of nature, like the strong nuclear force. Here is a good break down of the kind of abilities the necrons can bring to bear:
I am quite sorry, I can not endure the video. The production of it is very sloppy. The person reading the script needs less liquid in his mouth, and better pronounciation. The flow of the sentences are staccato, with unatural pauses in the reading. I think this might be a by-product of the script being written for reaidng purposed, and not sound tested by being read aloud before putting the finishing strokes on it. I will give credit where credit it due, the pictures in the video are nice. And the person who made the video probably has very little experience making them. In that case, cudos for going out and actually producing something. A brave step in a bold new direction, that I whole heartedly endorce. But to come full circle, I can not listen to it.
Thanks for the link though, the gesture was nice. Discusison power level when the necrons have the Cellestial Orrey makes little sence. Even the nids they can scorch earth tactics to get rid of. If I remember corecly, one of them has a blueprint for shutting the warp off and killing of every being with a soul. (The proto project was the pylons on cadia.) Anyway, that are my thoughts on the subject.
Those citations are correct, but the overall narrative built from there is speculation. Eldar did not 'win' the War in Heaven (well, Khaine did), but the Necrons didn't win either. And ultimately it was the Necrons which went hiding.
The necrons wanted to wipe out the old ones, do you see any of those still around? Then the necrons wanted to defeat the C'Tan, since they can't be destroyed (not without great cost anyway), they broke them into bite sized chunks, imprisoned and enslaved them. I'd say the necrons achieved everything they wanted to in the old war, well everything except getting their bodies back after they realized immortality is kind of a bad deal anyway.
Yet Eldar overcame the Enslavers, while the Necrons couldn't. Do you realise that at time Eldar had several warp gods on their side? Do you think Necrons would beat Nurgle or Khorne? It is probably the fact that the Eldar gods fought eacother, which stopped them from annihilating the Necrons altogether.
We don't know how the eldar beat the enslaver plague, and since the enslavers are still around it seems likely that they didn't beat them. Given how the enslavers operate I suspect the eldar just made it impossible for the plague to spread further and waited them out. After the first host, The enslavers needed to be near a psychers to start the process over, so once they ran out of host they probably travelled the webway to a new worlds. The eldar could have blocked off sections of the webway (which we know they can do because they tried to stop the necrons during their incursions into the webway) and without new hosts, the enslaver plague eventually peters out on its own. There is a certain amusement in that for me, the eldar basically doing the same thing the necrons did but lamer.
Also, the necrons knew that the eldar would kill themselves off, why bother fighting them and the enslaver plague, when one issue would solve the other and then solve itself. To add to the list of people who don't like the elder, The Eldar gods don't even like the eldar, since it was prophesied that they would kill themselves and bring about a being that would devour the pantheon, which is why khaine wanted to kill them all. You know who else didn't like them, The old ones, even in the eldar lore the old ones are like "Oy Vey, what did we just do", and cut off contact from the eldar, hid in the webways, and created more reliable races like the Krorks. Imagine when your creator thinks the orks are a better race than you are. It even seems like the GW lore team is on team not eldar, since they basically said that the only way for the eldar to save themselves is mass suicide.
Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.
The necrons wanted to wipe out the old ones, do you see any of those still around? Then the necrons wanted to defeat the C'Tan, since they can't be destroyed (not without great cost anyway), they broke them into bite sized chunks, imprisoned and enslaved them. I'd say the necrons achieved everything they wanted to in the old war, well everything except getting their bodies back after they realized immortality is kind of a bad deal anyway.
They won and then went hiding. How does that make any sense?
We don't know how the eldar beat the enslaver plague, and since the enslavers are still around it seems likely that they didn't beat them. Given how the enslavers operate I suspect the eldar just made it impossible for the plague to spread further and waited them out. After the first host, The enslavers needed to be near a psychers to start the process over, so once they ran out of host they probably travelled the webway to a new worlds. The eldar could have blocked off sections of the webway (which we know they can do because they tried to stop the necrons during their incursions into the webway) and without new hosts, the enslaver plague eventually peters out on its own. There is a certain amusement in that for me, the eldar basically doing the same thing the necrons did but lamer.
Well, whatever Eldar did with the Enslavers worked well enough that the Eldar could continue living their lives and building their empire.
Also, the necrons knew that the eldar would kill themselves off, why bother fighting them and the enslaver plague, when one issue would solve the other and then solve itself. To add to the list of people who don't like the elder, The Eldar gods don't even like the eldar, since it was prophesied that they would kill themselves and bring about a being that would devour the pantheon, which is why khaine wanted to kill them all. You know who else didn't like them, The old ones, even in the eldar lore the old ones are like "Oy Vey, what did we just do", and cut off contact from the eldar, hid in the webways, and created more reliable races like the Krorks. Imagine when your creator thinks the orks are a better race than you are. It even seems like the GW lore team is on team not eldar, since they basically said that the only way for the eldar to save themselves is mass suicide.
Sure, at this point the Eldar are pretty much fethed. Then again, they kinda ruled the galaxy for 60 million years, so I'd say they had a pretty decent run!
pm713 wrote: What? That makes no sense. The Eldar and Orks were still around and both had the capacity to take control of the galaxy. Why on earth would you then leave them to it?
The only reason for Necrons to sleep is because they lost their war for some reason.
Welcome to 5th ed necron retcon. It doesn't make sense.
The necrons should have continued and wiped out their rivals instead of sleeping. That would be the logical thing to do.
Apparently they were weakened when they betrayed the gods, but that's also dumb, because why would the gods allow themselves to be betrayed, and why destroy your best weapon when there are still enemies to kill.
Pre retcon the great sleep made sense, as there was an enslaver plague. Whilst normally necrons wouldn't be bothered by a race of creatures that preyed on psykers, it was killing the C'tan's food source, so they had to go into hibernation to wait for the plague to be over.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Heres a question. If the necrons ran cause they were afraid of the eldar, how come the eldar didnt wipe them all out in their sleep over the next few million years?
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Lance845 wrote: Heres a question. If the necrons ran cause they were afraid of the eldar, how come the eldar didnt wipe them all out in their sleep over the next few million years?
Too busy being the edgelords of 40k, they couldn't fit in xenocide into their busy schedule of self spank, circle spank, complaining no one understands them, cutting themselves, and time traveling to get linkin park LPs.
Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.
The Old Ones and their cannon fodder races got their asses handed to them in the War in Heaven. The only thing that saved the Eldar (and Orkz, Hrud, etc) was the Silent King's revolt against the C'Tan, which shattered the C'tan and weakened the Necrons. Hence, their 65 million year long nap and the Silent King's self-imposed exile, allowing the Eldar free reign in the galaxy.
'We totally could have beaten you, but we decided to take a nap instead.'
Likely story, bro!
The Old Ones were finished. What the Necrons/C'Tan didn't destroy, the weakened Old One weres finished off when the Enslavers (and other warp-based xenos) discovered an easy meal. Most intelligent life in the galaxy had been wiped out in the war. The remaining Orks were running amok. The Necrons did what they set out to do: Take revenge on the Old Ones.
The Great Sleep was untaken, on orders from the Silent King, for two reasons:
1. He wanted to undo biotransference. To do that, you need a compatable organic race to start with. There were no more around. Other than the Necrons, C'Tan shards, and the survivors among the Old Ones' engineered races, all sapient life in the galaxy had been wiped out.
2. Even after the massive backstabbing among the C'Tan, they were still formidable. The Necrons took a serious beating bringing them down. The Eldar survivors were busy running around, staking "We totally made this. Do not steal" signs on anything left behind by the Old Ones. As mentioned before, the Orks were having a grand old time (i.e. raising hell) without the Old Ones holding them back. The galaxy, and the Necrons themselves, were in no shape to support more pointless wars with the Old One's minions. That would defeat the Silent King's ultimate goal (undoing biotranference).
Thus, the Great Sleep took place, with the Necrons hibernating until a time when the galaxy would be teeming with life again. And now the Necrons are slowly waking up after 60 million years, although everything hasn't gone totally to plan. If it had, everybody would be screwed. And everybody might still be screwed if the Silent King, returning from exile to warn of the approaching Tyranids, somehow manages to unite the squabbling Dynasties and complete the awakening.
. You just enjoy your Eldar fanboy fan fiction. Good on ya!
- 10,000 pts CSM 
~4100
~1660
