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pm713 wrote:
He can enter artificial bodies and soul stones only came to be post fall so it could be literal.

There's no reason the Eldar gods can't take over bodies or constructs. They're basically demons.

Yep no issue with that , deamon possessing people is pretty normal for 40k



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Wow that story is pure allegory, khaine the warp God cannot enter the psysical plaine, like all warp gods, so quite likely it was an eldar warrior possessed by khaine, the swords were likely extremely advanced guns with shield generators and powered by soul stones of some type, likely even warp based weapons.

Khaine being tainted is again, just an allegory for the eldar race becoming more martial and thus the emotions changing how they perceived the god of war to look, I could go on but either way we know that the eldar gods cannot enter the material plane so the story is just that, a story, millions of years old and interpreted over and over again, tiny grain of truth blown way out of proportions.

They could enter material plane in ancient times. Asuryan eventually changed that. And even after that they could manifest part of their power, as avatars. Also, griping about swords! Do you even 40K? Everybody uses swords all the time. And regardless, the main point is that in one way or another Khaine and the Eldar kicked Nightbringer's arse.

Yay more alegory passed off as fact, "asuryan" stopped the gods from being able to enter the mortal plane, sure, the chaos gods are gonna take real notice of that im sure, after having killed asuryan during slaaneshs birth.

I have no issue with them being swords, I just dont think they are, thats the thing with alegories, they can be interpreted in many many ways, after all, Eldar are well known for giving fancy names to things that have nothing to do with what they actually are (to humans), such as the Talismans of Vaul, large space ships designed to kill C'Tan, and this is what I think is meant by the spear of Khaine defeating the Nightbringer, not literally Khaine, but some advanced tech that dealt the killing blow.

Main point it, nothing the Eldar claim can be trusted, especially their embelished made up myths 65 million years after the fact, that are wrapped up in wild interpretation.

He stopped the Eldar gods. He didn't do anything to the Chaos gods. Plus isn't the lore they weren't that self aware at the time?

pm713 wrote:
He stopped the Eldar gods. He didn't do anything to the Chaos gods. Plus isn't the lore they weren't that self aware at the time?

That's kind of my point, if it were true, the chaos gods would have done it, also given the tremendous amount of warp energy required to just support a greater daemon in the material plane, a god would require so much more, it doesn't add up.

Maybe. Avatars exist differently to Greater Demons. It isn't impossible the Eldar gods did the same. They could also have existed freely in the Webway which is what Cegorach supposedly does.

pm713 wrote:
Maybe. Avatars exist differently to Greater Demons. It isn't impossible the Eldar gods did the same. They could also have existed freely in the Webway which is what Cegorach supposedly does.

Avatars are either a part of the god, I.E a greater deamon of the respective god, or a mortal embued with the power of that god, either way, its not the literal god itself.

The Eldar at their height were quite bonkers, it could have been possible for them to provide their gods with the means needed to breach real space.

 Crimson wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Wow that story is pure allegory, khaine the warp God cannot enter the psysical plaine, like all warp gods, so quite likely it was an eldar warrior possessed by khaine, the swords were likely extremely advanced guns with shield generators and powered by soul stones of some type, likely even warp based weapons.

Khaine being tainted is again, just an allegory for the eldar race becoming more martial and thus the emotions changing how they perceived the god of war to look, I could go on but either way we know that the eldar gods cannot enter the material plane so the story is just that, a story, millions of years old and interpreted over and over again, tiny grain of truth blown way out of proportions.

They could enter material plane in ancient times. Asuryan eventually changed that. And even after that they could manifest part of their power, as avatars. Also, griping about swords! Do you even 40K? Everybody uses swords all the time. And regardless, the main point is that in one way or another Khaine and the Eldar kicked Nightbringer's arse.

Maybe, the chronology of it is up in the air, if it was after nightbringer was sharded, then yeah no kidding.

Tyran wrote:
The Eldar at their height were quite bonkers, it could have been possible for them to provide their gods with the means needed to breach real space.

Even if so, the war in heaven was not the eldar at their hieght. They didnt reach their hieght until long after the necrons went to sleep and the eldar had only orks to fight for supremacy.

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Maybe. Avatars exist differently to Greater Demons. It isn't impossible the Eldar gods did the same. They could also have existed freely in the Webway which is what Cegorach supposedly does.

Avatars are either a part of the god, I.E a greater deamon of the respective god, or a mortal embued with the power of that god, either way, its not the literal god itself.

The Avatar is pretty clearly literal pieces of the actual god Khaine. Different to things like Bloodthirsters and Demon Princes.

pm713 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Maybe. Avatars exist differently to Greater Demons. It isn't impossible the Eldar gods did the same. They could also have existed freely in the Webway which is what Cegorach supposedly does.

Avatars are either a part of the god, I.E a greater deamon of the respective god, or a mortal embued with the power of that god, either way, its not the literal god itself.

The Avatar is pretty clearly literal pieces of the actual god Khaine. Different to things like Bloodthirsters and Demon Princes.

Wrong, An Avatar of Khaine is just a deamon of the respective god... Khaine, a Bloodthirster is an Avatar of Khorne, the manner in which they are brought into the material plane is either identical, a possessed mortal in the case of the Avatar of Khaine AND Khorne, or slightly different in the case that Greater Deamons do not always need a mortal to possess.

Avatars are literally the embodiment of their gods will on the material plane, Primarchs are Avatars of the Emperor for example (from the Ecclesiarchys point of view)

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Maybe. Avatars exist differently to Greater Demons. It isn't impossible the Eldar gods did the same. They could also have existed freely in the Webway which is what Cegorach supposedly does.

Avatars are either a part of the god, I.E a greater deamon of the respective god, or a mortal embued with the power of that god, either way, its not the literal god itself.

The Avatar is pretty clearly literal pieces of the actual god Khaine. Different to things like Bloodthirsters and Demon Princes.

Wrong, An Avatar of Khaine is just a deamon of the respective god... Khaine, a Bloodthirster is an Avatar of Khorne, the manner in which they are brought into the material plane is either identical, a possessed mortal in the case of the Avatar of Khaine AND Khorne, or slightly different in the case that Greater Deamons do not always need a mortal to possess.

Avatars are literally the embodiment of their gods will on the material plane, Primarchs are Avatars of the Emperor for example (from the Ecclesiarchys point of view)

Bloodthirsters have seperate identities from Khorne. Avatars of Khaine are Khaine, they speak as Khaine to whoever they choose.

pm713 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Maybe. Avatars exist differently to Greater Demons. It isn't impossible the Eldar gods did the same. They could also have existed freely in the Webway which is what Cegorach supposedly does.

Avatars are either a part of the god, I.E a greater deamon of the respective god, or a mortal embued with the power of that god, either way, its not the literal god itself.

The Avatar is pretty clearly literal pieces of the actual god Khaine. Different to things like Bloodthirsters and Demon Princes.

Wrong, An Avatar of Khaine is just a deamon of the respective god... Khaine, a Bloodthirster is an Avatar of Khorne, the manner in which they are brought into the material plane is either identical, a possessed mortal in the case of the Avatar of Khaine AND Khorne, or slightly different in the case that Greater Deamons do not always need a mortal to possess.

Avatars are literally the embodiment of their gods will on the material plane, Primarchs are Avatars of the Emperor for example (from the Ecclesiarchys point of view)

Bloodthirsters have seperate identities from Khorne. Avatars of Khaine are Khaine, they speak as Khaine to whoever they choose.

Again, wrong, Avatars of Khaine are just greater deamons of Khaine, in exactly the same manner as a keeper of secrets is a greater deamon of slaanesh, both are shards of the greater gods power but not literally the greater god itself, they embody everything that makes up the greater god being AVATARS of its will and "personality", thus far we dont know if each Avatar of Khaine has a distinct personality from the rest, we have also never seen them communicate on the same level as greater deamons of the various gods (though I assume they can).

In short Avatars of Khaine are NOT Khaine, just the embodiment of Khaine.

 Formosa wrote:


I have no issue with them being swords, I just dont think they are, thats the thing with alegories, they can be interpreted in many many ways, after all, Eldar are well known for giving fancy names to things that have nothing to do with what they actually are (to humans), such as the Talismans of Vaul, large space ships designed to kill C'Tan, and this is what I think is meant by the spear of Khaine defeating the Nightbringer, not literally Khaine, but some advanced tech that dealt the killing blow.

Perhaps. And I think it is pretty cool interpretation. But then again, I also think that it is a cool interpretatyion that Sanguinius was just a marine who was really skilled with a jump pack, and him having wings was just a metaphor, but over the years people started to take it literally.

And considering that eve in the current 40K time there still are literal avatars of Khaine running around stabbing things to death with literal swords, I don't think that the literal interpretation of those events if far fetched either. It just is the case that Khaine was not shattered in pieces yet, and walls between the immaterium and the real world were weaker, so he probably could manifest in far more powerful form than currently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:


That's kind of my point, if it were true, the chaos gods would have done it, also given the tremendous amount of warp energy required to just support a greater daemon in the material plane, a god would require so much more, it doesn't add up.

Warp was different back then. Walls were weaker, it was easier to cross over. The Eldar say that it was Asyryan who changed that. He was the King of the Eldar Gods, and probably the most powerful warp entity in the existence at the time, so maybe he could have done it. Or perhaps it was the result of the warp going weird during the War in Heaven. Or combination of the two, who knows. I kinda like Asyryan being Involved though, as it is kinda similar to how the Valar isolated Aman from the Middle-Earth.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:

In short Avatars of Khaine are NOT Khaine, just the embodiment of Khaine.

They're shards of Khaine. Pieces of him.

Both are basically true. We know that daemons are slivers of a chaos god, cut free and given sentience. They are both individual entities, and a tiny fragment of their God.

Avatars are exactly this for Khaine. What likely happened in his duel with Slaanesh is he was either metaphorically smashed to pieces and forced out of the immaterium, or split himself into so many pieces to escape.

Either way, what likely happened is Khaine split himself into so many pieces and manifested them in the materium that Khaine as a warp-deity ceased to exist.

 Crimson wrote:

 Formosa wrote:


I have no issue with them being swords, I just dont think they are, thats the thing with alegories, they can be interpreted in many many ways, after all, Eldar are well known for giving fancy names to things that have nothing to do with what they actually are (to humans), such as the Talismans of Vaul, large space ships designed to kill C'Tan, and this is what I think is meant by the spear of Khaine defeating the Nightbringer, not literally Khaine, but some advanced tech that dealt the killing blow.

Perhaps. And I think it is pretty cool interpretation. But then again, I also think that it is a cool interpretatyion that Sanguinius was just a marine who was really skilled with a jump pack, and him having wings was just a metaphor, but over the years people started to take it literally.

And considering that eve in the current 40K time there still are literal avatars of Khaine running around stabbing things to death with literal swords, I don't think that the literal interpretation of those events if far fetched either. It just is the case that Khaine was not shattered in pieces yet, and walls between the immaterium and the real world were weaker, so he probably could manifest in far more powerful form than currently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:


That's kind of my point, if it were true, the chaos gods would have done it, also given the tremendous amount of warp energy required to just support a greater daemon in the material plane, a god would require so much more, it doesn't add up.

Warp was different back then. Walls were weaker, it was easier to cross over. The Eldar say that it was Asyryan who changed that. He was the King of the Eldar Gods, and probably the most powerful warp entity in the existence at the time, so maybe he could have done it. Or perhaps it was the result of the warp going weird during the War in Heaven. Or combination of the two, who knows. I kinda like Asyryan being Involved though, as it is kinda similar to how the Valar isolated Aman from the Middle-Earth.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:

In short Avatars of Khaine are NOT Khaine, just the embodiment of Khaine.

They're shards of Khaine. Pieces of him.

Except we have first hand "in head" accounts from sanguinius himself, so we know he is what he is, so thats concrete as you can get.

Now Khaine being a mortal possessed, yep, no issue, or Khaine sending a very powerful Avatar, no issue, Literal warp god Khaine turning up, nope, not a chance in hell, its just a story from a race than likes to exagerate to the extreme.

The walls are weaker now than they have ever been, the warp covers almost half the galaxy now, so were it possible for a warp god to manifest, now would be that time, Asuyan was most likely an old one that shut out deamons and the Eldar interpreted it as their "god" doing so, still a cool story though.

Greater deamons are shards of the Chaos god they are from, soooo.... hows that any different from Avatars, if you are saying that Avatars are literally Khaine, then Bloodthirsters, Keepers, lords of change and great unclean ones are all literally the chaos gods walking in the mortal realms, rather than Avatars of those gods.

The difference is that an Avatar of Khaine is a literal piece of Khaine. It's a mini Khaine whereas Demons are formed from Chaos power but are separate being with their own intelligence. For example Skarbrand is a piece of Khorne but is also Skarbrand.

 Formosa wrote:

Except we have first hand "in head" accounts from sanguinius himself, so we know he is what he is, so thats concrete as you can get.

So? It's still just a story, like the Khaine stroy. If one can be allegory then can the other too. There are stories that detail what Sir Tristan was thinking before he had to fight a dragon. Do you think that dragon fighting really happened in 5th century Ireland?

Now Khaine being a mortal possessed, yep, no issue, or Khaine sending a very powerful Avatar, no issue, Literal warp god Khaine turning up, nope, not a chance in hell, its just a story from a race than likes to exagerate to the extreme.

The Eldar have pretty good understanding of the Warp stuff, better than any other race in the setting. Also, you'r making an unnecessary distinction between an avatar and the god in this instance. Warp gods probably always reside in the warp, but if such god creates a powerful vessel that is directly contolled by their consciousness, then it indeed is accurate enough to say that the god appeared in person.

The walls are weaker now than they have ever been, the warp covers almost half the galaxy now, so were it possible for a warp god to manifest, now would be that time,

Not in the same way. There are huge holes now, but it is not the same than warp and real space being closer. Furthermore, that the Chaos gods cannot do something, doesn't mean that the Eldar gods couldn't do that either. They're similar beings, but still differnt, they can have differnt abilities. Perhaps the Chaos gods are, well, too chaotic, to concentrate their might in one place like that.

Asuyan was most likely an old one that shut out deamons and the Eldar interpreted it as their "god" doing so, still a cool story though.

The Eldar gods were unequivocally warp beings. Whilst them originally being Old Ones who somehow ascended into pure warp form is an interesting theory, there really is very little support for such idea.

Greater deamons are shards of the Chaos god they are from, soooo.... hows that any different from Avatars, if you are saying that Avatars are literally Khaine, then Bloodthirsters, Keepers, lords of change and great unclean ones are all literally the chaos gods walking in the mortal realms, rather than Avatars of those gods.

Greater daemons seem to be able to have their own personalities. They have their own unique names. The avatars are not quite like that. They're really mini Khaines.

 Crimson wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Except we have first hand "in head" accounts from sanguinius himself, so we know he is what he is, so thats concrete as you can get.

So? It's still just a story, like the Khaine stroy. If one can be allegory then can the other too. There are stories that detail what Sir Tristan was thinking before he had to fight a dragon. Do you think that dragon fighting really happened in 5th century Ireland?

Now Khaine being a mortal possessed, yep, no issue, or Khaine sending a very powerful Avatar, no issue, Literal warp god Khaine turning up, nope, not a chance in hell, its just a story from a race than likes to exagerate to the extreme.

The Eldar have pretty good understanding of the Warp stuff, better than any other race in the setting. Also, you'r making an unnecessary distinction between an avatar and the god in this instance. Warp gods probably always reside in the warp, but if such god creates a powerful vessel that is directly contolled by their consciousness, then it indeed is accurate enough to say that the god appeared in person.

The walls are weaker now than they have ever been, the warp covers almost half the galaxy now, so were it possible for a warp god to manifest, now would be that time,

Not in the same way. There are huge holes now, but it is not the same than warp and real space being closer. Furthermore, that the Chaos gods cannot do something, doesn't mean that the Eldar gods couldn't do that either. They're similar beings, but still differnt, they can have differnt abilities. Perhaps the Chaos gods are, well, too chaotic, to concentrate their might in one place like that.

Asuyan was most likely an old one that shut out deamons and the Eldar interpreted it as their "god" doing so, still a cool story though.

The Eldar gods were unequivocally warp beings. Whilst them originally being Old Ones who somehow ascended into pure warp form is an interesting theory, there really is very little support for such idea.

Greater deamons are shards of the Chaos god they are from, soooo.... hows that any different from Avatars, if you are saying that Avatars are literally Khaine, then Bloodthirsters, Keepers, lords of change and great unclean ones are all literally the chaos gods walking in the mortal realms, rather than Avatars of those gods.

Greater daemons seem to be able to have their own personalities. They have their own unique names. The avatars are not quite like that. They're really mini Khaines.

No it's not just a "story" it's a gods eye view at the innermost thoughts and feelings of a character as opposed to a "story" written by someone else thousands of years after the fact, a good example of this is the old index astartes, they are a historians look back and full of allegory and embellishments, thus unreliable, when that in universe person says Russ carved a mountain in half, we knows it's not true, we have seen what Russ can and can't do from first hand accounts, you seem to lack the ability to distinguish between historical allegorical stories, and first hand "in the mind" of the character during the events stories.

I am not making an unnecessary distinction between and avatar and a god, I am using the literal interpretation of what an avatar is, the embodiment of a god in the mortal world, Jesus was an avatar of god, some believe him to be god himself, some don't, this is the same as that, you interpret Avatars of Khaine as literally Khaine itself, I disagree, as otherwise they would not be Avatars, but stated as "Khaine" in the fluff and not "avatar"

I'd say it means the eldar "gods" could not, there is a pretty solid precedence in 40k that warp gods cannot the mortal realm, otherwise they would, there is also a solid chain of events to allow warp based entities entrance to the mortal plane, all of which contradicts the allegorical story of eldar gods walking the earth, it lacks credibility.

The eldar gods were not "unequivocally" warp beings, they could just as easily been old ones that later myth turned into warp beings, in exactly the same manner as some theories of the "warp God emperor" came about, they may have been old ones that did great deeds (like create the eldar race), were thought to be gods, died, and the belief created the warp gods after, which is how the warp works.

We don't know if Avatars of Khaine have different personalities, not enough is written about them, we know they can talk however, that's the extent of it, what we do know however is they are shards of the greater god, in exactly the same manner a greater daemon is a shard of the greater god, we also know it's a similar process to summon them, we again also know roughly what the gods are, how they are made and that every deamon is a embodiment of the greater gods personality, but that doesn't make them literally that god, but a part of it.

Isn't an avatar of Khaine just a mortal Eldar who shoved a piece of Khaine into himself? That's not really any different from a demon prince, if you think about it.

A demon prince is a mortal who was ascended to another state of being by a patron god at the cost of his humanity.

An avatar of khaine is a mortal who was ascended to another state of being by a patron god at the cost of his life, because I'm pretty sure that the Eldar dies in the process.

To me its clear then that the Avatar of Khaine isn't Khaine himself, but just a part of his power that's been used to empower a mortal.

 Formosa wrote:

No it's not just a "story" it's a gods eye view at the innermost thoughts and feelings of a character as opposed to a "story" written by someone else thousands of years after the fact, a good example of this is the old index astartes, they are a historians look back and full of allegory and embellishments, thus unreliable, when that in universe person says Russ carved a mountain in half, we knows it's not true, we have seen what Russ can and can't do from first hand accounts, you seem to lack the ability to distinguish between historical allegorical stories, and first hand "in the mind" of the character during the events stories.

No. There is no god's eye view. They're just different stories. They may have different format, but that doesn't affect their credibility.

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-Gav Thorpe, Lead Designer GW

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-Andy Hoare, Game Designer GW

"There is no canon. There are several hundred creators all adding to the melting pot of the IP."
-Aaron Dembski-Bowden, co-author Horus Heresy series

"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. If it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it."
-Marc Gascogne, chief editor Black Library

I am not making an unnecessary distinction between and avatar and a god, I am using the literal interpretation of what an avatar is, the embodiment of a god in the mortal world, Jesus was an avatar of god, some believe him to be god himself, some don't, this is the same as that, you interpret Avatars of Khaine as literally Khaine itself, I disagree, as otherwise they would not be Avatars, but stated as "Khaine" in the fluff and not "avatar"

Current Avatars of Khaine are not full Khaine, because they're only shards of Khaine. There is no real, complete Khaine any more. But in the past there was. Avatar means god's manifestation on the mortal plane.

Wikipedia:
"Avatar literally means "descent, alight, to make one's appearance", and refers to the embodiment of the essence of a superhuman being or a deity in another form. The word also implies "to overcome, to remove, to bring down, to cross something".[3] In Hindu traditions, the "crossing or coming down" is symbolism, states Daniel Bassuk, of the divine descent from "eternity into the temporal realm, from unconditioned to the conditioned, from infinitude to finitude". An avatar, states Justin Edwards Abbott, is a saguna (with form, attributes) embodiment of the nirguna Brahman or Atman (soul)."

I'd say it means the eldar "gods" could not, there is a pretty solid precedence in 40k that warp gods cannot the mortal realm, otherwise they would, there is also a solid chain of events to allow warp based entities entrance to the mortal plane, all of which contradicts the allegorical story of eldar gods walking the earth, it lacks credibility.

They cannot do that now. They could do it back then.

The eldar gods were not "unequivocally" warp beings, they could just as easily been old ones that later myth turned into warp beings, in exactly the same manner as some theories of the "warp God emperor" came about, they may have been old ones that did great deeds (like create the eldar race), were thought to be gods, died, and the belief created the warp gods after, which is how the warp works.

That is oversimplification. Also contradicted by Liber Chaotica.

We don't know if Avatars of Khaine have different personalities, not enough is written about them, we know they can talk however, that's the extent of it, what we do know however is they are shards of the greater god, in exactly the same manner a greater daemon is a shard of the greater god, we also know it's a similar process to summon them, we again also know roughly what the gods are, how they are made and that every deamon is a embodiment of the greater gods personality, but that doesn't make them literally that god, but a part of it.

Yes, Avatars of Khaine can talk. So they can tell the Eldar about the time he kicked Nightbringer's shiny arse!

Furthermore, that Avatars have some similarities to the Greater Daemons doesn't mean they're the exact same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Isn't an avatar of Khaine just a mortal Eldar who shoved a piece of Khaine into himself?

No.

 Crimson wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

No it's not just a "story" it's a gods eye view at the innermost thoughts and feelings of a character as opposed to a "story" written by someone else thousands of years after the fact, a good example of this is the old index astartes, they are a historians look back and full of allegory and embellishments, thus unreliable, when that in universe person says Russ carved a mountain in half, we knows it's not true, we have seen what Russ can and can't do from first hand accounts, you seem to lack the ability to distinguish between historical allegorical stories, and first hand "in the mind" of the character during the events stories.

No. There is no god's eye view. They're just different stories. They may have different format, but that doesn't affect their credibility.

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-Gav Thorpe, Lead Designer GW

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-Andy Hoare, Game Designer GW

"There is no canon. There are several hundred creators all adding to the melting pot of the IP."
-Aaron Dembski-Bowden, co-author Horus Heresy series

"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. If it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it."
-Marc Gascogne, chief editor Black Library

I am not making an unnecessary distinction between and avatar and a god, I am using the literal interpretation of what an avatar is, the embodiment of a god in the mortal world, Jesus was an avatar of god, some believe him to be god himself, some don't, this is the same as that, you interpret Avatars of Khaine as literally Khaine itself, I disagree, as otherwise they would not be Avatars, but stated as "Khaine" in the fluff and not "avatar"

Current Avatars of Khaine are not full Khaine, because they're only shards of Khaine. There is no real, complete Khaine any more. But in the past there was. Avatar means god's manifestation on the mortal plane.

Wikipedia:
"Avatar literally means "descent, alight, to make one's appearance", and refers to the embodiment of the essence of a superhuman being or a deity in another form. The word also implies "to overcome, to remove, to bring down, to cross something".[3] In Hindu traditions, the "crossing or coming down" is symbolism, states Daniel Bassuk, of the divine descent from "eternity into the temporal realm, from unconditioned to the conditioned, from infinitude to finitude". An avatar, states Justin Edwards Abbott, is a saguna (with form, attributes) embodiment of the nirguna Brahman or Atman (soul)."

I'd say it means the eldar "gods" could not, there is a pretty solid precedence in 40k that warp gods cannot the mortal realm, otherwise they would, there is also a solid chain of events to allow warp based entities entrance to the mortal plane, all of which contradicts the allegorical story of eldar gods walking the earth, it lacks credibility.

They cannot do that now. They could do it back then.

The eldar gods were not "unequivocally" warp beings, they could just as easily been old ones that later myth turned into warp beings, in exactly the same manner as some theories of the "warp God emperor" came about, they may have been old ones that did great deeds (like create the eldar race), were thought to be gods, died, and the belief created the warp gods after, which is how the warp works.

That is oversimplification. Also contradicted by Liber Chaotica.

We don't know if Avatars of Khaine have different personalities, not enough is written about them, we know they can talk however, that's the extent of it, what we do know however is they are shards of the greater god, in exactly the same manner a greater daemon is a shard of the greater god, we also know it's a similar process to summon them, we again also know roughly what the gods are, how they are made and that every deamon is a embodiment of the greater gods personality, but that doesn't make them literally that god, but a part of it.

Yes, Avatars of Khaine can talk. So they can tell the Eldar about the time he kicked Nightbringer's shiny arse!

Furthermore, that Avatars have some similarities to the Greater Daemons doesn't mean they're the exact same thing.

One day I will learn how to use multi qoute.

On with the show.

All those qoutes are irrelevent, I will say what I said about ADB regretting what he put into the first heretic, if he didnt want it taken seriously, he shouldnt have put it in the book (Ref: the missing primarchs), when you have a first person story and a 2nd person or even 3rd person historical look at something, you go with the first person story if there is a contradiction, the Heresy series are a true account of what happened in the Horus Heresy, not some person interpretation of it after the fact, the FW HH books are a look back shortly after the Heresy and the index astartes are a loooooooong lookback from the point of view of a supersticious imperial historian, so we go with the HH series as being a true rendition of the events, you may not like it, but that is how it works.

Your Eldar alegory is worse than all 3 of these, its a look back through poetic form 65 million years after the fact through the eyes of a decadent empire that believes itself to be the master race, it has a tiny grain of truth, nothing more, now if they make a first person book series from the point of view of the Eldar and it backs it up, I will believe it, until then, it has zero credibility as a source of information.

Thank you for confirming I am using the term avatar correctly, and that you are not, not sure why you would post that though

They could not do it back then, they cannot do it now, you have no evidence to back that statement up other than a single line of fluff that is pure allegory.

Yes its simplified and yes thats exactly how the warp works, as backed up by liber chaotica, which you would know if you had read it, which i very much doubt otherwise you would not have made that clearly wrong statement.

So a being that could have been "Khaine" beat the Nightbringer, once, whats your point?

They have similarities because they are the same thing, warp beings made from the warp that are manifestations of a greater god, they are literally the same thing, but derived from different species emotions, Khaine is just the Eldar Khorne, with some notable distinctions.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
and yes, an Avatar of Khaine is a mortal Eldar that is possessed by a greater Deamon of Khaine, thats exactly what it is.

 Formosa wrote:

All those qoutes are irrelevent,

So the people who actually write the fluff saying how it is supposed to work is irrelevant? Ok, mate...

I will say what I said about ADB regretting what he put into the first heretic, if he didnt want it taken seriously, he shouldnt have put it in the book (Ref: the missing primarchs), when you have a first person story and a 2nd person or even 3rd person historical look at something, you go with the first person story if there is a contradiction, the Heresy series are a true account of what happened in the Horus Heresy, not some person interpretation of it after the fact, the FW HH books are a look back shortly after the Heresy and the index astartes are a loooooooong lookback from the point of view of a supersticious imperial historian, so we go with the HH series as being a true rendition of the events, you may not like it, but that is how it works.

That, really, really is not how it works. Do you think that Iliad is more accurate information source about ancient Greece than history books because it is written on first person level?

Your Eldar alegory is worse than all 3 of these, its a look back through poetic form 65 million years after the fact through the eyes of a decadent empire that believes itself to be the master race, it has a tiny grain of truth, nothing more, now if they make a first person book series from the point of view of the Eldar and it backs it up, I will believe it, until then, it has zero credibility as a source of information.

The perspective is completely irrelevant.

But hey, her's the same story from C'tan perspective!

White Dwarf wrote:
'Death stands above me, whispering low
I know not what in my ear
Of his strange language all I know
There is only pain and fear.'

— inscription transcribed from the walls of Cthelmax

You probably do not know this, but I am a great admirer of the Harlequins of the Laughing God and of their dances. I am especially fond of those dances that involve my brethren. Now, for your entertainment, allow me to relate to you the story of my favourite Harlequin dance, 'The Birth of Fear'.

During the infancy of their race, the eldar knew not the fear of death. They, as well as the other young races, were little more than battle-automata in service of the Old Ones, who knew better than to program fear into the fodder they would send to be slaughtered by our own necron servants. And of course, true, permanent death is not known to the eldar during this time, for their souls can simply be reborn into new bodies. The Old Ones must have seen our deathless servants and wanted to create their own version as a countermeasure.

And so it was that this new race entered the War in Heaven. They gave a good accounting of themselves. The greatest eldar heroes made their names in this stage of the war: Ulthanash and Eldanesh, brothers and warrior-kings, stood pre-eminent over their kind. Lanthrilaq the Swift and Thrice-Blessed Jaeriela stood with them, leading their peoples to victory after victory against our deathless host. And at the head of their armies was their warrior-god, towering and mighty, a immortal incarnation of fire and fury: Kaela Mensha Khaine.

Obviously, a race of psychics who possessed the power of reincarnation had the potential to be a significant thorn on our sides. The error of their existence must be rectified, and there is one among the C'tan who is perfectly suited for the role of corrector: my dear brother, the Nightbringer, the Master of Death.

The eldar feared my brother more than any other of my kind, a fear that remained unrivalled until - and arguably, even after - the rise of their Great Enemy. Such is their fear of him that they called him Kaelis Ra, which in their language means 'Destroyer of Light'. And it is only right for the eldar to fear him, for all who stood against the Nightbringer were utterly destroyed, losing even their very souls. Worlds died, empires crumbled, and the greatest of heroes perished before the scythe and gaze of Kaelis Ra.

The Nightbringer's presence in the eldar front all but secured our rule over the galaxy, but at that time there were far too many C'tan vying for power. Their numbers must be thinned, and my brother once again rose to the occasion, consuming the weaker and the less prudent members of our family, those who had no right to rule in the first place. Other C'tan followed his example, ensuring that the galaxy remained an interesting place even after our victory. The eldar believe that it was their Laughing God who 'inspired' the Nightbringer to consuming our weaker brethren. I allow them their happy little delusion, while laughing at their inability to tell the difference between the Nightbringer and the Outsider.

But while we struggled in our wars of sport, Khaine did not remain idle. He struck a bargain with the smith-god Vaul, a poor imitation of my brother the Dragon. In exchange for the release of a pair of unimportant gods from Khaine's dungeons, Vaul would create for him a hundred swords, the greatest weapons of the eldar. Vaul only managed to make ninety-nine in the time Khaine allotted, so he added one ordinary blade among the swords, hoping that Khaine would not notice. He did not, and, pleased with the work of the smith-god, armed the remnants of his army with the blades.

Khaine then launched an offensive against the Nightbringer's forces: a hundred of the greatest eldar heroes against legion after legion of necrons. Their foes stretched across the horizon, yet they knew no fear.

For seven days and seven nights the eldar stood, shoulder-to-shoulder, blades flashing in the darkness. Gauss beams bounced off defensive force fields and necron warriors were felled by god-forged blades. The hundred eldar warriors, invigorated by their swords, did not tire. In fact, it was as if they gained new life with each slash.

And then tragedy struck. Lanthrilaq the Swift did not prove true to his name, for he was the one who used the imperfect sword. He perished under sustained Gauss fire, and the eldar circle buckled broke.

The Nightbringer then burst forth from the ground, slaying the greatest of eldar heroes with a gesture. Khaine charged at him with a great roar, and one of the greatest duels in history began.

And so they fought: the God of Murder against the Master of Death, god against god, spear against scythe, white-hot rage against the cold patience of the grave. Khaine was a skilled combatant, but his spear could not find its mark. Even the mightiest of blades could not hit an incorporeal creature of shadow, and the Nightbringer toyed with Khaine as a hunter relishing in the suffering of his prey.

But when all hope seemed lost, Khaine recalled the advice given to him by one whom he believed was the Laughing God: the Nightbringer was a creature of shadow, but he had to become solid to deliver his blows. So as the Nightbringer aimed his scythe for the finishing blow, Khaine lunged drove his spear through his chest. The Nightbringer was torn from his physical form as it burst in a fiery explosion, which was followed by his warriors returning to their tombs. The shards of the Nightbringer's physical form also hit Khaine, forever tainting him with the Aspect of the Reaper.

But the battle did not end there. As Khaine howled his victory, so too did the Nightbringer howl his rage in the void of space. He implanted his image on the minds of the eldar, as well as all of the other races to come. Only the krork, whose minds were too dull to comprehend their own mortality, were spared. And the Nightbringer's curse so affected the eldar that from that time onward, the path of reincarnation was closed to them forever.

And these events, in their entirety, were just as planned.

Thank you for confirming I am using the term avatar correctly, and that you are not, not sure why you would post that though

What? It says that Avatar is an embodiment of a god. It is the god's soul, given a body. It is still that god, not a separate thing, just like if I wear a new suit I don't become another person altogether.

They could not do it back then, they cannot do it now, you have no evidence to back that statement up other than a single line of fluff that is pure allegory.

Evidence it is that it has been stated that this happened. This is how we know things about a fictional setting.

Yes its simplified and yes thats exactly how the warp works, as backed up by liber chaotica, which you would know if you had read it, which i very much doubt otherwise you would not have made that clearly wrong statement.

Liber Chaotica wrote:
I watched as the First Ones encouraged the younger race to reach further into the other realm, and with their vibrant minds and passionate souls create beings of power to fight the start gods.

But the battle was long and the first ones were now few, and as their numbers dwindled, so too did their influence over their young creations. Without the wisdom and might of the First Ones to bind them, I saw The Elder's warp-beings evolve from sentient weapons into living gods - the first true gods of the Immaterium.

Old ones and Eldar gods established as separate things. Also, unlike Chaos gods, Eldar gods are something that were intetionally created, although they sort of 'escaped' once they grew too powerful for the Eldar to handle. But this could be the reason why they're somewhat different than Chaos gods. The Eldar gods might be more coherent, as they're not a random occurrence.

So a being that could have been "Khaine" beat the Nightbringer, once, whats your point?

Lance845 didn't believe that Eldar gods were capable of defeating the C'tan. Though I guess you never had a problem with it, merely with the nature of the gods and the method of the defeat.

They have similarities because they are the same thing, warp beings made from the warp that are manifestations of a greater god, they are literally the same thing, but derived from different species emotions, Khaine is just the Eldar Khorne, with some notable distinctions.

It's not really the same though. Khaine the warp God doesn't exist any longer, only shards of him exist, and they reside in the infinity circuits of the craft worlds.

and yes, an Avatar of Khaine is a mortal Eldar that is possessed by a greater Deamon of Khaine, thats exactly what it is.

No. The Young King is a mere sacrifice. The thing being 'possessed' is the giant body sitting in the centre of the craft world. Those are always there.

 Crimson wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

All those qoutes are irrelevent,

So the people who actually write the fluff saying how it is supposed to work is irrelevant? Ok, mate...

I will say what I said about ADB regretting what he put into the first heretic, if he didnt want it taken seriously, he shouldnt have put it in the book (Ref: the missing primarchs), when you have a first person story and a 2nd person or even 3rd person historical look at something, you go with the first person story if there is a contradiction, the Heresy series are a true account of what happened in the Horus Heresy, not some person interpretation of it after the fact, the FW HH books are a look back shortly after the Heresy and the index astartes are a loooooooong lookback from the point of view of a supersticious imperial historian, so we go with the HH series as being a true rendition of the events, you may not like it, but that is how it works.

That, really, really is not how it works. Do you think that Iliad is more accurate information source about ancient Greece than history books because it is written on first person level?

Your Eldar alegory is worse than all 3 of these, its a look back through poetic form 65 million years after the fact through the eyes of a decadent empire that believes itself to be the master race, it has a tiny grain of truth, nothing more, now if they make a first person book series from the point of view of the Eldar and it backs it up, I will believe it, until then, it has zero credibility as a source of information.

The perspective is completely irrelevant.

But hey, her's the same story from C'tan perspective!

White Dwarf wrote:
'Death stands above me, whispering low
I know not what in my ear
Of his strange language all I know
There is only pain and fear.'

— inscription transcribed from the walls of Cthelmax

You probably do not know this, but I am a great admirer of the Harlequins of the Laughing God and of their dances. I am especially fond of those dances that involve my brethren. Now, for your entertainment, allow me to relate to you the story of my favourite Harlequin dance, 'The Birth of Fear'.

During the infancy of their race, the eldar knew not the fear of death. They, as well as the other young races, were little more than battle-automata in service of the Old Ones, who knew better than to program fear into the fodder they would send to be slaughtered by our own necron servants. And of course, true, permanent death is not known to the eldar during this time, for their souls can simply be reborn into new bodies. The Old Ones must have seen our deathless servants and wanted to create their own version as a countermeasure.

And so it was that this new race entered the War in Heaven. They gave a good accounting of themselves. The greatest eldar heroes made their names in this stage of the war: Ulthanash and Eldanesh, brothers and warrior-kings, stood pre-eminent over their kind. Lanthrilaq the Swift and Thrice-Blessed Jaeriela stood with them, leading their peoples to victory after victory against our deathless host. And at the head of their armies was their warrior-god, towering and mighty, a immortal incarnation of fire and fury: Kaela Mensha Khaine.

Obviously, a race of psychics who possessed the power of reincarnation had the potential to be a significant thorn on our sides. The error of their existence must be rectified, and there is one among the C'tan who is perfectly suited for the role of corrector: my dear brother, the Nightbringer, the Master of Death.

The eldar feared my brother more than any other of my kind, a fear that remained unrivalled until - and arguably, even after - the rise of their Great Enemy. Such is their fear of him that they called him Kaelis Ra, which in their language means 'Destroyer of Light'. And it is only right for the eldar to fear him, for all who stood against the Nightbringer were utterly destroyed, losing even their very souls. Worlds died, empires crumbled, and the greatest of heroes perished before the scythe and gaze of Kaelis Ra.

The Nightbringer's presence in the eldar front all but secured our rule over the galaxy, but at that time there were far too many C'tan vying for power. Their numbers must be thinned, and my brother once again rose to the occasion, consuming the weaker and the less prudent members of our family, those who had no right to rule in the first place. Other C'tan followed his example, ensuring that the galaxy remained an interesting place even after our victory. The eldar believe that it was their Laughing God who 'inspired' the Nightbringer to consuming our weaker brethren. I allow them their happy little delusion, while laughing at their inability to tell the difference between the Nightbringer and the Outsider.

But while we struggled in our wars of sport, Khaine did not remain idle. He struck a bargain with the smith-god Vaul, a poor imitation of my brother the Dragon. In exchange for the release of a pair of unimportant gods from Khaine's dungeons, Vaul would create for him a hundred swords, the greatest weapons of the eldar. Vaul only managed to make ninety-nine in the time Khaine allotted, so he added one ordinary blade among the swords, hoping that Khaine would not notice. He did not, and, pleased with the work of the smith-god, armed the remnants of his army with the blades.

Khaine then launched an offensive against the Nightbringer's forces: a hundred of the greatest eldar heroes against legion after legion of necrons. Their foes stretched across the horizon, yet they knew no fear.

For seven days and seven nights the eldar stood, shoulder-to-shoulder, blades flashing in the darkness. Gauss beams bounced off defensive force fields and necron warriors were felled by god-forged blades. The hundred eldar warriors, invigorated by their swords, did not tire. In fact, it was as if they gained new life with each slash.

And then tragedy struck. Lanthrilaq the Swift did not prove true to his name, for he was the one who used the imperfect sword. He perished under sustained Gauss fire, and the eldar circle buckled broke.

The Nightbringer then burst forth from the ground, slaying the greatest of eldar heroes with a gesture. Khaine charged at him with a great roar, and one of the greatest duels in history began.

And so they fought: the God of Murder against the Master of Death, god against god, spear against scythe, white-hot rage against the cold patience of the grave. Khaine was a skilled combatant, but his spear could not find its mark. Even the mightiest of blades could not hit an incorporeal creature of shadow, and the Nightbringer toyed with Khaine as a hunter relishing in the suffering of his prey.

But when all hope seemed lost, Khaine recalled the advice given to him by one whom he believed was the Laughing God: the Nightbringer was a creature of shadow, but he had to become solid to deliver his blows. So as the Nightbringer aimed his scythe for the finishing blow, Khaine lunged drove his spear through his chest. The Nightbringer was torn from his physical form as it burst in a fiery explosion, which was followed by his warriors returning to their tombs. The shards of the Nightbringer's physical form also hit Khaine, forever tainting him with the Aspect of the Reaper.

But the battle did not end there. As Khaine howled his victory, so too did the Nightbringer howl his rage in the void of space. He implanted his image on the minds of the eldar, as well as all of the other races to come. Only the krork, whose minds were too dull to comprehend their own mortality, were spared. And the Nightbringer's curse so affected the eldar that from that time onward, the path of reincarnation was closed to them forever.

And these events, in their entirety, were just as planned.

Thank you for confirming I am using the term avatar correctly, and that you are not, not sure why you would post that though

What? It says that Avatar is an embodiment of a god. It is the god's soul, given a body. It is still that god, not a separate thing, just like if I wear a new suit I don't become another person altogether.

They could not do it back then, they cannot do it now, you have no evidence to back that statement up other than a single line of fluff that is pure allegory.

Evidence it is that it has been stated that this happened. This is how we know things about a fictional setting.

Yes its simplified and yes thats exactly how the warp works, as backed up by liber chaotica, which you would know if you had read it, which i very much doubt otherwise you would not have made that clearly wrong statement.

Liber Chaotica wrote:
I watched as the First Ones encouraged the younger race to reach further into the other realm, and with their vibrant minds and passionate souls create beings of power to fight the start gods.

But the battle was long and the first ones were now few, and as their numbers dwindled, so too did their influence over their young creations. Without the wisdom and might of the First Ones to bind them, I saw The Elder's warp-beings evolve from sentient weapons into living gods - the first true gods of the Immaterium.

Old ones and Eldar gods established as separate things. Also, unlike Chaos gods, Eldar gods are something that were intetionally created, although they sort of 'escaped' once they grew too powerful for the Eldar to handle. But this could be the reason why they're somewhat different than Chaos gods. The Eldar gods might be more coherent, as they're not a random occurrence.

So a being that could have been "Khaine" beat the Nightbringer, once, whats your point?

Lance845 didn't believe that Eldar gods were capable of defeating the C'tan. Though I guess you never had a problem with it, merely with the nature of the gods and the method of the defeat.

They have similarities because they are the same thing, warp beings made from the warp that are manifestations of a greater god, they are literally the same thing, but derived from different species emotions, Khaine is just the Eldar Khorne, with some notable distinctions.

It's not really the same though. Khaine the warp God doesn't exist any longer, only shards of him exist, and they reside in the infinity circuits of the craft worlds.

and yes, an Avatar of Khaine is a mortal Eldar that is possessed by a greater Deamon of Khaine, thats exactly what it is.

No. The Young King is a mere sacrifice. The thing being 'possessed' is the giant body sitting in the centre of the craft world. Those are always there.

Yep the people who write the fluff who express an opinion after the fact, are irrelevent, only whats written in the books is relevent, George lucas may have an opinion on Star wars now, but it doesnt mater, ADB may have wanted what he wrote to be interpreted a certain way, but it wasnt, so soon as something is in the public domain, you lose control of it.... mate.

Yep, except in real life we dont have the benefit of being able to see the inner thoughts of the person we are observing, in this case we do, so yet again you seem to be unable to distinguish how these things work.

The perspective is 100% relevent, if I have two stories, one saying "I did this, and I did that" and one saying "and lo that person di cometh and do something cool, and all were awed" then I am going with the clearly less embelished story as its more credible.

Yep it says an Avatar is the embodiement of a god, something I have been saying over and over again, I can quote myself if you like? and this is what that means "a tangible or visible form of an idea, quality, or feeling." so yep, I am 100% correct in context. And yes if you wear a suit you DO become a different person, thats what context means, and in this context being the earthly manifestation of Khaine, an Avatar, a piece, a shard, means that it is NOT Khaine, but a part of the greater whole, not the greater whole itself, really not sure how you are not getting that, a bloodthirster is not Khorne, just as an Avatar is not Khaine.

No evidence has been presented, just the retold story that has no reliability from an unreliable medium by an unreliable race, a race that was in its infancy and likely interpreted great technology or greater beings as magic and gods, which leads me to
"I watched as the First Ones encouraged the younger race to reach further into the other realm, and with their vibrant minds and passionate souls create beings of power to fight the start gods."
Which is basically exactly what im saying, the old ones, who were likely interpreted as gods by the proto eldar, encouraged the eldar to believe in gods.... real shocker right there, you know Isha, the "mother" of the Eldar race, probably an old one, the one that created the Eldar, "Khaine" could have been an old one that saw the danger the young races presented and tried to wipe them out, his fellow old ones trying tried to top him, so he killed them, Eldar observe, legend takes over, then myth, then time turns them into "gods" and the history is retroactively changed to suit the Eldars perception of what happened over 65 MILLION years, is that sinking in yet, MILLIONS of years and you expect me to believe these allegories are true? factual? not a chance, in the same way as when the Index Astartes came out I didnt believe the clear embelishments about the primarchs, pure allegory.

And yep I have no issues with a possible warp god/Old one beating the Nightbringers Necrodermis, and yep I am debating the nature of the creatures that defeated it.

"It's not really the same though. Khaine the warp God doesn't exist any longer, only shards of him exist, and they reside in the infinity circuits of the craft worlds."
Dude you need to make your mind up, either the Avatars are Khaine or they are shards, I have been saying they are NOT Khaine, but parts of him, now your saying the same here???

Given that no body is left over from the waking of an Avatar is fair to guess that its either possession or the body is consumed during the waking, either way, its consistent with how greater deamons are summoned.

Imperium of Man, by a long chalk.

Numbers to rival Tyranids and Orks, and utterly dwarf pretty much all other races.

They’ve got the best established logistics, and more than a single fighting arm. Sure, the Imperial Guard are ponderously slow, but their numbers are ridiculous. They can pin you in place long enough for more mobile forces to do their surgical strikes.

Their planets and systems are rarely walk overs for anyone. If anything goes Pete Tong in your own attack strategy, you’re likely in for a hammering unless you’re coming in serious force (splinter Hive Fleets can be dealt with relatively well for instance, and it’s only main tendrils that are a serious and consistent threat).

The sheer size and breadth of The Imperium is its single greatest asset. Yes, they regularly lose ground - but can usually retake it if the drive is there. They can feed Regiment after Regiment of Guard into the grinder - and with planetary populations into the Billions, raise new ones almost as fast as they spend the old.

Their biggest drawback is often wonky lines of communication. The labyrinthine organisation isn’t unavoidable, but it is what it is. The enforced autonomy of their armed forces prevents particularly swift deployment, barring the Astartes. The squabbling nature of their organisation means politics can cause losses where victory was assured.

But even so. It’s colossal. It has near infinite room to withdraw, regroup and rearm. And when they’ve done that, here comes retribution, and it’s got your name on it...

 Formosa wrote:
Yep the people who write the fluff who express an opinion after the fact, are irrelevent, only whats written in the books is relevent, George lucas may have an opinion on Star wars now, but it doesnt mater, ADB may have wanted what he wrote to be interpreted a certain way, but it wasnt, so soon as something is in the public domain, you lose control of it.... mate.

Well, I am going to agree with the stated intent of the content creators, thank you very much.

Yep, except in real life we dont have the benefit of being able to see the inner thoughts of the person we are observing, in this case we do, so yet again you seem to be unable to distinguish how these things work.

We have the exact same ability! I can read about the thoughts of sir Tristan, just the same as I can read about the thoughts of Sanguinius.

The perspective is 100% relevent, if I have two stories, one saying "I did this, and I did that" and one saying "and lo that person di cometh and do something cool, and all were awed" then I am going with the clearly less embelished story as its more credible.

So you believe that Marco Polo actually saw dragons in China then? Because he wrote that he did? That is bonkers.

Yep it says an Avatar is the embodiement of a god, something I have been saying over and over again, I can quote myself if you like? and this is what that means "a tangible or visible form of an idea, quality, or feeling." so yep, I am 100% correct in context. And yes if you wear a suit you DO become a different person,

What? This doesn't make even a least bit of sense. If a wear a suit, I only become even handsomer, not a different person!

thats what context means, and in this context being the earthly manifestation of Khaine, an Avatar, a piece, a shard, means that it is NOT Khaine, but a part of the greater whole, not the greater whole itself, really not sure how you are not getting that, a bloodthirster is not Khorne, just as an Avatar is not Khaine.

Bloodthirster is not the same thing. We're talking about a situation where the will, the soul of a GOD, directly controls a physical form. There is no separate being, just one being taking different forms.

No evidence has been presented, just the retold story that has no reliability from an unreliable medium by an unreliable race, a race that was in its infancy and likely interpreted great technology or greater beings as magic and gods, which leads me to
"I watched as the First Ones encouraged the younger race to reach further into the other realm, and with their vibrant minds and passionate souls create beings of power to fight the start gods."
Which is basically exactly what im saying, the old ones, who were likely interpreted as gods by the proto eldar, encouraged the eldar to believe in gods.... real shocker right there, you know Isha, the "mother" of the Eldar race, probably an old one, the one that created the Eldar, "Khaine" could have been an old one that saw the danger the young races presented and tried to wipe them out, his fellow old ones trying tried to top him, so he killed them, Eldar observe, legend takes over, then myth, then time turns them into "gods" and the history is retroactively changed to suit the Eldars perception of what happened over 65 MILLION years, is that sinking in yet, MILLIONS of years and you expect me to believe these allegories are true? factual? not a chance, in the same way as when the Index Astartes came out I didnt believe the clear embelishments about the primarchs, pure allegory.

No. The Eldar know about the Old Ones. And the proto-gods were created as psychic weapons under the direction of the Old Ones. The Old Ones and the Eldar gods existed concurrently.

Furthermore, you totally skipped the part where the Elda and C'tan accounts of the Khaine fighting Nightbringer were essentially the same. These Eldar 'legends' seem pretty accurate!

Dude you need to make your mind up, either the Avatars are Khaine or they are shards, I have been saying they are NOT Khaine, but parts of him, now your saying the same here???

They're shards after Khaine was shattered by Slaanesh. But these Shards are not exactly like greater daemons, who are created by still existing gods. There is no record of Eldar gods (except Slaanesh) having any sort of separate daemons.

There is clearly a canon at work in 40K, maybe a loose one that has contradictions and retcons, but there is clearly one at work. There are certain fixed facts and rules/guidelines about how the 40k universe works.

We know how bolters behave and that the Horus Heresy occurred. If a BL writer wrote that bolters fired daisies, that there were never any Primarchs and never any Heresy, he would be told he is wrong, not that "anything goes". How can you say he is wrong unless there was a fixed objective truth to how something works in the 40K universe?

Any fictional shared universe has to have a canon at work, even if it is not explicitly stated, because without internal consistency you don't have a coherent setting. You just have nonsense.

All those quotes amount to editorial and continuity checking laziness, and trying to palm that off as "deep" philosophical stance to the gullible.

Iracundus wrote:
There is clearly a canon at work in 40K, maybe a loose one that has contradictions and retcons, but there is clearly one at work. There are certain fixed facts and rules/guidelines about how the 40k universe works.

We know how bolters behave and that the Horus Heresy occurred. If a BL writer wrote that bolters fired daisies, that there were never any Primarchs and never any Heresy, he would be told he is wrong, not that "anything goes". How can you say he is wrong unless there was a fixed objective truth to how something works in the 40K universe?

Sure, but like it or not, in 40K such canon only exists in broad stokes sense.

"I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it. Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note thet answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends". But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies. It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it for me. Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy. To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you."
-Marc Gascoigne (overall manager of Black Library prior to 2008)

As I said in another thread, it is probably better to think it like comic books and their various adaptations. There is Clack Kent who is Kryptonian operating under pseudonym Superman, and his arch enemy is called Lex Luthor. But the events and details from the comics do not exactly match those in various TV series or film adaptations, or often even with earlier issues of the comic.

 Crimson wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
There is clearly a canon at work in 40K, maybe a loose one that has contradictions and retcons, but there is clearly one at work. There are certain fixed facts and rules/guidelines about how the 40k universe works.

We know how bolters behave and that the Horus Heresy occurred. If a BL writer wrote that bolters fired daisies, that there were never any Primarchs and never any Heresy, he would be told he is wrong, not that "anything goes". How can you say he is wrong unless there was a fixed objective truth to how something works in the 40K universe?

Sure, but like it or not, in 40K such canon only exists in broad stokes sense.

"I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it. Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note thet answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends". But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies. It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it for me. Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy. To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you."
-Marc Gascoigne (overall manager of Black Library prior to 2008)

As I said in another thread, it is probably better to think it like comic books and their various adaptations. There is Clack Kent who is Kryptonian operating under pseudonym Superman, and his arch enemy is called Lex Luthor. But the events and details from the comics do not exactly match those in various TV series or film adaptations, or often even with earlier issues of the comic.

Nonetheless that is a canon. The fact that there can be anything said with any certainty about a fictional universe is what canon is.

I also would not put any weight on what Marc said because he was also the one that claimed there would never ever be any BL work from a non-human xenos POV. Yet now we have the Eldar Path trilogy, the Dark Eldar trilogy, Valedor novel, Phoenix Lord series, and Harlequin audio book. So much for "never".

Unless there is some huge event that heavily weakens them, Tyranids should eventually overcome every race overall.

 TapedTempest wrote:
Unless there is some huge event that heavily weakens them, Tyranids should eventually overcome every race overall.

An event like the Tau continuing their trend to become a grimdark Culture clone and overwhelming the Tyranids with sheer numbers of combat drones (each of them more powerful than a 40k battleship)? This is why the Tau win any of these long-game scenarios, they're the only faction with pragmatism in science/engineering and developing technology. They may not be able to conquer the whole galaxy now, but give them time...