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Double post, sorry

tneva82 wrote:

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
After thinking this through I approve of this nerf. The logic kind of makes sense

Was commander spam an issue? Yes
Has this nerf removed commander spam from the game? Yes
But has this made commanders completely useless? No
Does this create more variety in Tau army lists and reduce spam? Yes

Tau players should be grateful, they had an over performing unit and it still does really well, it just cant be spammed any more.

IG had an over performing unit (conscripts) and they got nerfed so hard they became literally unplayable. We also had commissars that got nerfed to being unusable.

But if this was done to nerf it they did it in wrong way. If it's too good to spam it's now still underpriced model and every tau player will max detachments(even as patrol) to get max 3.

It's bandaid. But limit of # is NEVER justification for proper point values. If commander is too good then it's power or point cost needs to be limited. Not restrict #. That doesnt' weaken it. It just bandaids effect in totally non-scalable way.

Not to mention it's silly tau only has them. Where's limit on marine HQ's? IG? Tyranids? Orks? All those have HQ's that make little sense to spam in fluff terms. And as said game balance isn't reason to limit. If it's too good it's still too good even if you can only take limited numbers. If it's not too good no reason to limit spam like that.

Have a limit on the number of a certain unit is a very good way to balance a game. Video games do it all the time where a player is only allowed 1-2 of a certain unit type.
You say it is non-scalable, but i do not agree. If you play bigger points games then you can bring more detachments which means more commanders. If you play smaller games then you will not be able to afford as many "tax" units so you have less detachments and this get less commanders.
I could be wrong, but I dont think Space Marine, IG or Orlks are spamming a single HQ choice. Most space marine armies will take a captain /Lt combo but they dont spam a whole army of them. Orks will take big meks and pain boys to reduce causalities. IG take some officers to use orders. But Tau players took commanders to do direct damage, that is the difference. If i spammed a whole army of IG officers I would not do very well at all!
However, I actually agree with you about nids, flyrant armies should not exist and I think they should also have a limit. I think back when nids where first released they could only take 0-1 hive tyrants.
One thing to consider is that GW have indirectly increased the points costs of commanders. It is perfectly possible to still spam commanders by using patrol detachments and buying a single min fire warrior team per patrol. That is a 35 point increase per commander

A Town Called Malus wrote:

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:


Tau players should be grateful, they had an over performing unit and it still does really well, it just cant be spammed any more.

We should be grateful that GW didn't fix the reason Commanders were spammed and instead punish us with a limit because they can't do their job properly?

I think this comment is more emotional then logical. How have GW not done their job properly? There was a unit that was being spammed and was very powerful, now it is harder to spam but still very powerful. Seems like a good job to me.
Like I said to another user, one thing to consider is that GW have indirectly increased the points costs of commanders. It is perfectly possible to still spam commanders by using patrol detachments and buying a single min fire warrior team per patrol. That is a 35 point increase per commander

BoomWolf wrote:

 FatBoyNoSlim wrote:
After thinking this through I approve of this nerf. The logic kind of makes sense

Was commander spam an issue? Yes
Has this nerf removed commander spam from the game? Yes
But has this made commanders completely useless? No
Does this create more variety in Tau army lists and reduce spam? Yes

Tau players should be grateful, they had an over performing unit and it still does really well, it just cant be spammed any more.

IG had an over performing unit (conscripts) and they got nerfed so hard they became literally unplayable. We also had commissars that got nerfed to being unusable.

Yes, we should be GRATEFUL that the merciful GW has decided to turn a large portion of our armies illegal despite the fact the codex changes shows they acknowledge that the index army was trash tier that was overpriced and underpowered across the board.

Commander spam was an issue FOR TAU, not for anyone else. tau was FORCED to do that because literally nothing else was remotely viable, and even that was unimpressive.
Has this nerf removed commander spam from the game? Yes, but by making it illegal is stupid. the moment the rest of tau got balanced, the commander spam would mostly go away on its own.
Has it made commanders useless? YES because I LITERALLY CANT TAKE THEM. every commander beyond the first is a freaking paperweight.
Does it create more variety? NO. it just flips the switch by enforcing infantry gunline and disabling suit centered aggressive lists.

The commander was NOT over-preforming, it was preforming, unlike the rest of the index.
And yes, it still plays very well, EXCEPT I AM NOT ALLOWED TO PLAY IT.

I think you might be exaggerating a little bit about large portions of your army being illegal Commanders are 1 unit and 1 unit getting nerfed in a whole codex shouldnt be making your army illegal. I mean commanders are still HQ choices right?
Saying you had no other viable choices is not true. I recently faced a very nasty combo from a tau player in a tournament, I dont know the exact combo but it was roughly fireblade, ethereal, dark strider and a single commander buffing about 20-25 fire warriors. This blob was able to delete 30-40 guardsmen a turn without breaking a sweat!
Why are you not allowed to play it? the commander still exists, it is right there in the codex and if you really want to spam them still then just take multiple patrol detachments and consider the min fire squads a 35pts increase for your commander.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Looking at these stratagems, I don't know what people are complaining about. Most of them are 1cp and really helpful. They also bring back many of the cool upgrades Tau had in the past.

Except now they aren't upgrades.

And the ability to JSJ, a core element of the army since its very beginning, is now a signature system.

It's akin to Space Marines, after 5 editions, going from 3+ save to 4+ except on one model who can take a 3+ relic. Or Imperial Guard losing Leman Russ tanks except for a single unique one which finctions the same as the previous ones.

Also, they didn't fix the plasma disparity between Tau and the Imperium introduced when the Imperium gained a safe shooting mode with no loss of strength. We didn't even get a points decrease, strength or range increase, overcharge profile, nothing.

IIRC Plasma had a safe option and a overcharge option even in the original RT book.

JSJ was an a part of unit rules not an unit so your Leman Russ comparison makes zero sense - if you said the Vanquisher gun barrel or the ability to move and fire without penalty that would make more sense.

Lots of stuff comes and goes, some cos of balance, some cos of lack of models, some cos GW can't be bothered to implement.

But it's annoying that I'm forced to run either fireblades or ethereals. It's a lessening of options, and that's never fun. Imagine if space marine captains were restricted to cone per detachment. Or chaos lords. Or orc warbosses. Or eldar farseers

All those examples probably should be - maybe they will be in the future? Same with Canoness for my SOB but of course they completely removed all other HQ options for them except the Saint so that won't currently work as we don't (unlike Ta) have lots of alts.

Honestly, the more I'm reading the more I kinda agree. I think if they only let me use 1 ork mech, and I had a list that focused on mechs and bikes, I would be upset. Overall in friendly games I would let tau players use what ever they want because I think none matched games make for some fun fluffy games (like letting my Deathwing Dark Angels Opponent put every terminator in deepstrike).

But the again... it isn't 1 per game it's 1 per formation and if you already took a mech suit army 3-6 elite and heavy choices (presumably what the mech suits are) then you simply just take 3 and move onto another formation. Am I wrong in thinking this? Wouldn't you also end up with more cp if you did this and also took 3 unit choices with 1 other hq?

 lolman1c wrote:
Honestly, the more I'm reading the more I kinda agree. I think if they only let me use 1 ork mech, and I had a list that focused on mechs and bikes, I would be upset. Overall in friendly games I would let tau players use what ever they want because I think none matched games make for some fun fluffy games (like letting my Deathwing Dark Angels Opponent put every terminator in deepstrike).

The rule is irrelevant if you're playing anything other than Matched Play.

It's a Matched Play rule.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Honestly, the more I'm reading the more I kinda agree. I think if they only let me use 1 ork mech, and I had a list that focused on mechs and bikes, I would be upset. Overall in friendly games I would let tau players use what ever they want because I think none matched games make for some fun fluffy games (like letting my Deathwing Dark Angels Opponent put every terminator in deepstrike).

The rule is irrelevant if you're playing anything other than Matched Play.

It's a Matched Play rule.

I know, I'm saykng I don't play matched play so with me nothing has changed for my tau friends (if i had any).

I think a lot of people saying "just take more detachment!" Are missing the fact Tau can't take battalions anymore without taking some foot slogger HQ, and if we want more than a couple CP, we need to take battalions.

 Wolfblade wrote:
I think a lot of people saying "just take more detachment!" Are missing the fact Tau can't take battalions anymore without taking some foot slogger HQ, and if we want more than a couple CP, we need to take battalions.

When did Tau become unable to take Vanguard, Outrider, or Spearhead Detachments?

I realize that it's a bit less than great for Tau...but well, I'm excited to be able to run them as a combined arms force.

 Wolfblade wrote:
I think a lot of people saying "just take more detachment!" Are missing the fact Tau can't take battalions anymore without taking some foot slogger HQ, and if we want more than a couple CP, we need to take battalions.

You mean like everyone else?

Can I put down the encyclopedia of lists I have written that contain footslogger commanders who are there to be buff bots and hand to hand backup (nothing serious mind you, maybe capable of stopping the random mugging at most)?

Anyhow, as we've already heard the sky is falling, all is lost.

I'm not buying this codex, I barely pay attention to Tau and even I can already see some nasty combos. Fire Warrior spam with Focused Fire and Through Unity, Devastation seems pretty amazing to me. Strike Teams wounding anything in the game on a 4+ and getting -1 AP on a 5+, yep, you guys got hosed so bad, what will you do?!

You are all focused on your plasma guns and for some reason haven't come around to the realization that this edition is all about overloading the wound mechanic, which you have mechanisms for doing, in addition to amazing firepower.

Use your imagination, seriously, the meta has changed, get with the program.

 Irbis wrote:


As I have already pointed out, Chapter Master, SM equivalent, is one per army. Not detachment, army. He also costs a lot of CPs and/or points, and can't juggle quadruple meltas. Hell, SM officers forgot keys to armoury and can't take even one melta or plasma gun to take advantage of their BS stat, unless you take overpriced combi-guns and even then only a few HQs have access to them.

And frankly, even if Captains were made 1 per detachment, nothing would change. Most people already take 1 and fill the rest of the slots with librarians and lieutenants. The fact you see so much salt flowing over that one small Tau change is best proof how 'balanced' the Commander is and how needed the change was...

Tau commanders aren't chapter master equivalents and good luck convincing anyone otherwise. A commander leads a single hunter cadre of 50-100 troops. Much like a captain. The fact that chapter masters also require CP should have tipped you off on that. Secondly, this restriction affects: Commanders in XV8, XV85, XV86 and all the special suit characters. Imagine you can't take Shrike because you took a captain.

People wouldn't spam captains because there's no reason to, 'cause they're balanced. Tau commanders are STILL head and shoulders above EVERY other unit at literally everything (except aura buffs). They're still broken, and the limit changes nothing in regards to internal balance. Most players would rather force a new detachment than take a crisis team now. This is the problem. The limit will be avoided as much as possible because nothing else is as good as commanders. Had crisis suits been given a buff, or commanders were actually nerfed this wouldn't be as much of an issue. Let's not forget, Tau commanders have the worst buff aura in the game, which means people have no incentive to take buffmanders.

Here's some other ideas to fix commanders:
- Restrict loadout to 2 guns with support systems for the other two slots.
- Give their auras some usefulness. Their once per game buff should either affect the whole board OR happen every turn.
- Drop the cost of crisis suits and their weapons. How would you feel about 24 pts autocannons? Well, that's what we have now.
- Adjust points. Commanders stayed the same price so they're even better now with traits and relics.

I think everyone is missing the point that regardless of what they did people would complain. There was no win for GW in this situation.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
I think a lot of people saying "just take more detachment!" Are missing the fact Tau can't take battalions anymore without taking some foot slogger HQ, and if we want more than a couple CP, we need to take battalions.

You mean like everyone else?

Can I put down the encyclopedia of lists I have written that contain footslogger commanders who are there to be buff bots and hand to hand backup (nothing serious mind you, maybe capable of stopping the random mugging at most)?

Anyhow, as we've already heard the sky is falling, all is lost.

I'm not buying this codex, I barely pay attention to Tau and even I can already see some nasty combos. Fire Warrior spam with Focused Fire and Through Unity, Devastation seems pretty amazing to me. Strike Teams wounding anything in the game on a 4+ and getting -1 AP on a 5+, yep, you guys got hosed so bad, what will you do?!

You are all focused on your plasma guns and for some reason haven't come around to the realization that this edition is all about overloading the wound mechanic, which you have mechanisms for doing, in addition to amazing firepower.

Use your imagination, seriously, the meta has changed, get with the program.

Again, this thread is specifically about the commander nerf. It is not a review of the whole codex. Overall we're better than we were before, my fire warrior spam is now scary, ion is now good (maybe too good even) and broadsides and riptides might be useful going forward. But I still disagree with how they handled commanders which happens to be the specific topic at hand. And I only have one commander right now. It's more of the principle of the thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I think everyone is missing the point that regardless of what they did people would complain. There was no win for GW in this situation.

So they picked the most controversial fix? Seriously, points adjustments would have been a minimum. The next would be to look at potential loadouts. the problem is GW wants Tau commanders to be these OP heroes without considering its affect on internal balance. This is why people are upset.

Dandelion wrote:
So they picked the most controversial fix? Seriously, points adjustments would have been a minimum. The next would be to look at potential loadouts. the problem is GW wants Tau commanders to be these OP heroes without considering its affect on internal balance. This is why people are upset.

Yeah, I don't like that I don't get Legion traits on my entire army, like Sept abilities, you know?

I don't like that Daemonic Possession is gone, after being in pretty much every edition since 2nd.

The list goes on...

Again, this thread is specifically about the commander nerf. It is not a review of the whole codex. Overall we're better than we were before, my fire warrior spam is now scary, ion is now good (maybe too good even) and broadsides and riptides might be useful going forward. But I still disagree with how they handled commanders which happens to be the specific topic at hand. And I only have one commander right now. It's more of the principle of the thing.

So not the actual rules then......well then....

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
So they picked the most controversial fix? Seriously, points adjustments would have been a minimum. The next would be to look at potential loadouts. the problem is GW wants Tau commanders to be these OP heroes without considering its affect on internal balance. This is why people are upset.

Yeah, I don't like that I don't get Legion traits on my entire army, like Sept abilities, you know?

I don't like that Daemonic Possession is gone, after being in pretty much every edition since 2nd.

The list goes on...

And that somehow justifies the commander limit? "Stop complaining cuz other stuff sucks too." Despite the nerf I'm going to be just fine, but I still get to point out bad design when it shows up. Or at least decisions I disagree with. Since this is a topic on something I disagree with, why is there any surprise that I'm voicing my opinion?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Again, this thread is specifically about the commander nerf. It is not a review of the whole codex. Overall we're better than we were before, my fire warrior spam is now scary, ion is now good (maybe too good even) and broadsides and riptides might be useful going forward. But I still disagree with how they handled commanders which happens to be the specific topic at hand. And I only have one commander right now. It's more of the principle of the thing.

So not the actual rules then......well then....

I, legitimately, don't know what you're trying to say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, Coldstars can now take Quad Fusion. With Vior'la they get to move 40" with no penalty (except charging). Yeah, commanders are far from being commanders.

Wait, so you're complaining that you can't take Battalions if you want to make an all-suit army, because you'll be forced to take a footslogging hq?

...have you considered that an all-suit army is already impossible to do with battalions, because of the three troops slots?

Wouldn't you already be taking Vanguards or Spearheads or something to make an all-suit army?

the_scotsman wrote:
Wait, so you're complaining that you can't take Battalions if you want to make an all-suit army, because you'll be forced to take a footslogging hq?

...have you considered that an all-suit army is already impossible to do with battalions, because of the three troops slots?

Wouldn't you already be taking Vanguards or Spearheads or something to make an all-suit army?

Stop with the logic man, it's not welcome here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:
And that somehow justifies the commander limit? "Stop complaining cuz other stuff sucks too." Despite the nerf I'm going to be just fine, but I still get to point out bad design when it shows up. Or at least decisions I disagree with. Since this is a topic on something I disagree with, why is there any surprise that I'm voicing my opinion?

Please explain why GW has to justify anything to you. Show your work.

Things change, you won't like them all, it's kind of what change is about, adapt, imagine, make it work, or do something else. I mean if you're hating the game this much maybe it's not for you.

Honestly, my complaint is that they took the only HQ choice that actually had options and limited it to one per detachment. Every single other HQ choice for Tau are mono-build, the only options you have are drones or no drones. Commanders were the one HQ choice you could make your own. The only way you could the the highly flexible nature of the Tau.

And, again, the fact that there are so many methods to juggle detachments to get around the limit... Kind of shows the pointlessness of the limit, doesn't it? It's a non-solution "fix" that doesn't really accomplish anything in the long run, but punishes players who weren't the problem to begin with.

On top of that, it's not like commander spam was even that good. It was just the best thing in the index. It was annoying, not super powerful. It didn't win any tournaments, it never really even placed highly. It was a gimmicky annoyance and had they fixed the base problem it would have gone away anyway.

Its become - I have a awesome new Codex full of great units but this one ruling destroy's my universe

Its not like they have removed the unit - you can still have them and several of them - not like say most of the Dark Eldar characters

Deadawake1347 wrote:
On top of that, it's not like commander spam was even that good.

Please stop this argument, it's dumb and disingenuous.

You mention loving the options and customization on the unit, so they let you keep that, but the other way outside of a hard limit (which is an admittedly clumsy, but effective way of dealing with it) would be to make them SO expensive that you can't spam them, which would have produced EXACTLY the same reaction from all of you, if not worse.

Commander spam wasn't that good, in a vacuum, but you're not in a vacuum anymore are you?

I mean, the only argument here is "What was wrong with commander spam?!".

I haven't seen a single one of you propose a solution for commander spam, just whining that it shouldn't be taken away.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its become - I have a awesome new Codex full of great units but this one ruling destroy's my universe

Its not like they have removed the unit - you can still have them and several of them - not like say most of the Dark Eldar characters

ITT: people who already ebayed their 6 riptides to buy 6 commander kits with identical 4x fusion blaster loadouts several months ago.

the_scotsman wrote:
Wait, so you're complaining that you can't take Battalions if you want to make an all-suit army, because you'll be forced to take a footslogging hq?

...have you considered that an all-suit army is already impossible to do with battalions, because of the three troops slots?

Wouldn't you already be taking Vanguards or Spearheads or something to make an all-suit army?

Is that at me? If so, I never said I wanted to make a suit only army. People that want to take a two commanders per battalion/brigade aren't thrilled is all. Besides, my complaint isn't at the existence of the limit, it's that the underlying problems weren't fixed. Commanders are still too good even with the limit.

Please explain why GW has to justify anything to you. Show your work.

Things change, you won't like them all, it's kind of what change is about, adapt, imagine, make it work, or do something else. I mean if you're hating the game this much maybe it's not for you.

Dude, I never said I hated the game nor that I hated this codex. I am indeed looking forward to getting the codex despite this one solitary issue and my complaints about it. I will reiterate, this thread is specifically about the commander limit, as such I have kept my posts on topic. I disagree with the limit for a couple reasons. Namely:

And, again, the fact that there are so many methods to juggle detachments to get around the limit... Kind of shows the pointlessness of the limit, doesn't it? It's a non-solution "fix" that doesn't really accomplish anything in the long run, but punishes players who weren't the problem to begin with.

If, however, you asked how I was going to build my list I would say: 2 battalions: 2 commanders, 2 fireblades, 8 strike teams/breachers, 2 pathfinders, 1 ghostkeel, 2 stealthteams, 3 piranha, 2 broadsides and whatever else I can cram in there (maybe a devilfish).
As you can see, this limit doesn't stop me from doing what I want. Which is why I think it's stupid. There was no tangible fix for internal balance. Had they buffed crisis I may have made room for a squad in my list but I'm not going to hold my breath.

 Wolfblade wrote:
I think a lot of people saying "just take more detachment!" Are missing the fact Tau can't take battalions anymore without taking some foot slogger HQ

Cry me a river.

My Dark Eldar - a supposedly fast army, no less - can't take a single HQ that isn't footslogging. Not even as a 0-1 choice or a special character. And because our army was designed by a pilchard, there's rarely even space for HQs in our sodding transports. And that's before we even get into their worthless auras or pathetic combat abilities.

So you'll have to forgive me not getting overly emotional over you "only" being allowed one jump-pack Commander with outstanding shooting per detachment.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Deadawake1347 wrote:
On top of that, it's not like commander spam was even that good.

Please stop this argument, it's dumb and disingenuous.

You mention loving the options and customization on the unit, so they let you keep that, but the other way outside of a hard limit (which is an admittedly clumsy, but effective way of dealing with it) would be to make them SO expensive that you can't spam them, which would have produced EXACTLY the same reaction from all of you, if not worse.

Commander spam wasn't that good, in a vacuum, but you're not in a vacuum anymore are you?

I mean, the only argument here is "What was wrong with commander spam?!".

I haven't seen a single one of you propose a solution for commander spam, just whining that it shouldn't be taken away.

I have, actually. Reduce commanders back down to how they were in six and seventh, two weapons, two support systems. I did that in this very thread actually, and it was ignored. All of a sudden commanders aren't the best shooting unit in the army, and they shouldn't be. But they need to have an actually useful buff aura to offset that. In fact, my proposal earlier in this thread was to give them unique upgrades that only commanders could take int heir support slots that would, for fair and balanced point values, allow them to give out things like rerolls of one to hit, or rerolls of one to wound, or negating a single negative modifier. You know, give them the ability to act like commanders and lead the army rather than be the army.

And if commander spam was so wonderfully powerful... Why have Tau been mid tier(which honestly is where I'd like them to stay), even when everyone and their mother was bringing some variation of commander spam as their Tau list? They weren't doing amazingly, they were doing okay, using the "hideously broken" commander spam. Which would have vanished anyway if GW fixed the actual problem. The problem was not commander spam. That was a symptom. The problem was awful internal balance and fairly poor external balance to the point where commanders we're not a option, but the option if you wanted to even remotely well.

EDIT: Here's my previous post back on page 3. Listing exactly the same proposal.

Deadawake1347 wrote:
The way I would have fixed it, was to return Commanders to how they were in previous editions. Give them two weapon points and two upgrade points. Problem solved as they are no longer better shooting than a unit of Crisis Suits.

However, they should also be given unique support system choices not available to other suits with a more supportive roll. Since GW is really on aura buffs, they could be things like one system let's you reroll hit rolls of one, another could be wound rolls of one, or ignore a single negative modifier, for units within six inches. It would require some work to figure out appropriate points, but it would give commanders flexibility and a reason to be taken aside from committing suicide to take out a tank.

However... That would have taken actual effort and creativity on GW's part, and restricting them to 1 per detachment is quick and easy.

You want to know what's really dumb?

GW is now hyping quadfusion coldstar commanders. That is a BS2+ character, armed with 4 18" range meltas, which can move up to 40" a turn. If it is Vior'la sept it doesn't even lose any accuracy when moving that far.

In the same codex where apparently a commander with 4 fusion blasters which could move a maxiimum of 14" was so overpowered it had to be limited to one per detachment.

Apparently commanders were so good at shooting that they needed to be made even better whilst also being made limited to one per detachment. Can people really justify GWs approach when they make commanders even better than before whilst also limiting them? It's like their design team is schizophrenic.

Deadawake1347 wrote:

I have, actually. Reduce commanders back down to how they were in six and seventh, two weapons, two support systems. I did that in this very thread actually, and it was ignored. All of a sudden commanders aren't the best shooting unit in the army, and they shouldn't be. But they need to have an actually useful buff aura to offset that. In fact, my proposal earlier in this thread was to give them unique upgrades that only commanders could take int heir support slots that would, for fair and balanced point values, allow them to give out things like rerolls of one to hit, or rerolls of one to wound, or negating a single negative modifier. You know, give them the ability to act like commanders and lead the army rather than be the army.

This^


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:


I haven't seen a single one of you propose a solution for commander spam, just whining that it shouldn't be taken away.

I also proposed the same fix earlier:

Here's some other ideas to fix commanders:
- Restrict loadout to 2 guns with support systems for the other two slots.
- Give their auras some usefulness. Their once per game buff should either affect the whole board OR happen every turn.
- Drop the cost of crisis suits and their weapons. How would you feel about 24 pts autocannons? Well, that's what we have now.
- Adjust points. Commanders stayed the same price so they're even better now with traits and relics.

Dandelion wrote:
Dude, I never said I hated the game nor that I hated this codex. I am indeed looking forward to getting the codex despite this one solitary issue and my complaints about it. I will reiterate, this thread is specifically about the commander limit, as such I have kept my posts on topic. I disagree with the limit for a couple reasons. Namely:

And, again, the fact that there are so many methods to juggle detachments to get around the limit... Kind of shows the pointlessness of the limit, doesn't it? It's a non-solution "fix" that doesn't really accomplish anything in the long run, but punishes players who weren't the problem to begin with.

Juggling detachments only gets you 3 of them in a 2000 point game. I know there are weirdo groups that allow people to bring as many detachments as they want, but in matched play this effectively limits it to 3 of them.

So clearly Commander spam was a problem that either showed up in tournament or in internal play testing, probably after they made adjustments to the other units in the codex.

Again, the repeated argument here comes back to "But, but, Commander spam wasn't that bad.", yet, no matter how many times you repeat that, it completely fails to take into account the rest of the changes in the codex, which change the entire context in which the unit is measured.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Dude, I never said I hated the game nor that I hated this codex. I am indeed looking forward to getting the codex despite this one solitary issue and my complaints about it. I will reiterate, this thread is specifically about the commander limit, as such I have kept my posts on topic. I disagree with the limit for a couple reasons. Namely:

And, again, the fact that there are so many methods to juggle detachments to get around the limit... Kind of shows the pointlessness of the limit, doesn't it? It's a non-solution "fix" that doesn't really accomplish anything in the long run, but punishes players who weren't the problem to begin with.

Juggling detachments only gets you 3 of them in a 2000 point game. I know there are weirdo groups that allow people to bring as many detachments as they want, but in matched play this effectively limits it to 3 of them.

So clearly Commander spam was a problem that either showed up in tournament or in internal play testing, probably after they made adjustments to the other units in the codex.

Again, the repeated argument here comes back to "But, but, Commander spam wasn't that bad.", yet, no matter how many times you repeat that, it completely fails to take into account the rest of the changes in the codex, which change the entire context in which the unit is measured.

I'm going to respond to this one since you are responding to his response to something I said... The argument is not that commander spam was fine. I wanted it fixed just as much as everyone else. The argument is not that commander spam was fine, it was a stupid problem caused by poor internal balance. The argument is not that commander spam was fine, it's that they took the laziest, most half-assed route to fixing it rather than actually adjusting things so that it's not a no-brainer to spam commanders in the first place.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
You want to know what's really dumb?

GW is now hyping quadfusion coldstar commanders. That is a BS2+ character, armed with 4 18" range meltas, which can move up to 40" a turn. If it is Vior'la sept it doesn't even lose any accuracy when moving that far.

In the same codex where apparently a commander with 4 fusion blasters which could move a maxiimum of 14" was so overpowered it had to be limited to one per detachment.

I feel like you just answered your own question here. I feel like you just answered the entire thread with this. I can't imagine why they would feel the need to limit this unit given those rules, truly, a mind-boggling situation, what-ever shall they do?

Reducing the number of weapons the unit can carry would be great, adding auras would be great, I think those are good solutions. However, it's also the solution in every other codex, it appears they wanted to do something different here, I'll be curious to see how it plays out, personally, I think facing codex Tau is going to be rough for a lot of armies, my own included.

Unfortunately, they already built the model kit, and repackaging costs money and time which is not being invested in this codex. Remember, you're getting a new codex, NO NEW MODELS, NO NEW KITS. Also, GW makes rules for model kits that are already out there (unlike the past), kitbashing is for artists and hobby painters now, apparently.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Juggling detachments only gets you 3 of them in a 2000 point game. I know there are weirdo groups that allow people to bring as many detachments as they want, but in matched play this effectively limits it to 3 of them.

So clearly Commander spam was a problem that either showed up in tournament or in internal play testing, probably after they made adjustments to the other units in the codex.

Again, the repeated argument here comes back to "But, but, Commander spam wasn't that bad.", yet, no matter how many times you repeat that, it completely fails to take into account the rest of the changes in the codex, which change the entire context in which the unit is measured.

I never said commander spam wasn't bad. I still think it's bad. I just think this fix missed the mark.

Anyway, the context for the codex is:
-commanders get reilcs/traits and no points or loadout change. Coldstars can now take quad fusion (that's 40" movement and you thought regular commanders were too good...)
-crisis suits are exactly the same (missile pods went up though)
-Riptides + Ion got better
-Troops +broadsides are cheaper
-Devilfish are cheaper
-We got stratagem/sept tenets

My guess is GW overvalued Crisis teams because people were taking Ion blaster teams and as such didn't want to drop their points but also didn't want to bump the cost of commanders.