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 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
You want to know what's really dumb?

GW is now hyping quadfusion coldstar commanders. That is a BS2+ character, armed with 4 18" range meltas, which can move up to 40" a turn. If it is Vior'la sept it doesn't even lose any accuracy when moving that far.

In the same codex where apparently a commander with 4 fusion blasters which could move a maxiimum of 14" was so overpowered it had to be limited to one per detachment.

I feel like you just answered your own question here. I feel like you just answered the entire thread with this. I can't imagine why they would feel the need to limit this unit given those rules, truly, a mind-boggling situation, what-ever shall they do?

Reducing the number of weapons the unit can carry would be great, adding auras would be great, I think those are good solutions. However, it's also the solution in every other codex, it appears they wanted to do something different here, I'll be curious to see how it plays out, personally, I think facing codex Tau is going to be rough for a lot of armies, my own included.

Unfortunately, they already built the model kit, and repackaging costs money and time which is not being invested in this codex. Remember, you're getting a new codex, NO NEW MODELS, NO NEW KITS. Also, GW makes rules for model kits that are already out there (unlike the past), kitbashing is for artists and hobby painters now, apparently.

Except they could limit the Coldstar commander separately.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Unfortunately, they already built the model kit, and repackaging costs money and time which is not being invested in this codex. Remember, you're getting a new codex, NO NEW MODELS, NO NEW KITS. Also, GW makes rules for model kits that are already out there (unlike the past), kitbashing is for artists and hobby painters now, apparently.

The model kit already has all the options we'd ever need. The guns and support systems are already there, just change how you can use them.

Dandelion wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Unfortunately, they already built the model kit, and repackaging costs money and time which is not being invested in this codex. Remember, you're getting a new codex, NO NEW MODELS, NO NEW KITS. Also, GW makes rules for model kits that are already out there (unlike the past), kitbashing is for artists and hobby painters now, apparently.

The model kit already has all the options we'd ever need. The guns and support systems are already there, just change how you can use them.

Indeed. It also doesn't have four fusion blasters in the kit, so by the "You only get what is in the kit" argument, you shouldn't be able to build a quad fusion commander.

I'm just going to clearly spell out exactly my problem with the "fix".

- It didn't do enough to actually fix commanders! They're still broken and they don't feel like commanders. They're just a bunch of rambos going solo. There just won't be as many. Yay, progress...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Unfortunately, they already built the model kit, and repackaging costs money and time which is not being invested in this codex. Remember, you're getting a new codex, NO NEW MODELS, NO NEW KITS. Also, GW makes rules for model kits that are already out there (unlike the past), kitbashing is for artists and hobby painters now, apparently.

The model kit already has all the options we'd ever need. The guns and support systems are already there, just change how you can use them.

Indeed. It also doesn't have four fusion blasters in the kit, so by the "You only get what is in the kit" argument, you shouldn't be able to build a quad fusion commander.

Yeah, but it's got one so it counts according to GW I guess...

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Unfortunately, they already built the model kit, and repackaging costs money and time which is not being invested in this codex. Remember, you're getting a new codex, NO NEW MODELS, NO NEW KITS. Also, GW makes rules for model kits that are already out there (unlike the past), kitbashing is for artists and hobby painters now, apparently.

The model kit already has all the options we'd ever need. The guns and support systems are already there, just change how you can use them.

Indeed. It also doesn't have four fusion blasters in the kit, so by the "You only get what is in the kit" argument, you shouldn't be able to build a quad fusion commander.

So are we just going to pretend that people don't have bits boxes or buy multiples of things?

But...but... I want to make fun of GW

 Kanluwen wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Unfortunately, they already built the model kit, and repackaging costs money and time which is not being invested in this codex. Remember, you're getting a new codex, NO NEW MODELS, NO NEW KITS. Also, GW makes rules for model kits that are already out there (unlike the past), kitbashing is for artists and hobby painters now, apparently.

The model kit already has all the options we'd ever need. The guns and support systems are already there, just change how you can use them.

Indeed. It also doesn't have four fusion blasters in the kit, so by the "You only get what is in the kit" argument, you shouldn't be able to build a quad fusion commander.

So are we just going to pretend that people don't have bits boxes or buy multiples of things?

That same argument applies to many other units which have lost options.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

That same argument applies to many other units which have lost options.

And that same argument applies to many other units which have lost options yet still have them in kits. My Wild Riders for AoS, for example, come with shields on the sprue...but can't use them. The Sisters of the Thorn alternate build don't get them either(but they never had the option for them to begin with--so it's not a question of one having it while the other doesn't).
My Guard Sergeants for 40k have Lasguns available to them as part of the kit(it's necessary for building Whiteshield/Conscripts)--yet haven't been able to take the things for three damn editions.

I, personally, would rather have the option there and a limitation on the unit numbers than not have the option.
If you'd rather be able to spam 4x Commanders than have a Commander with 4x Fusions(PS: the Fusions from the basic Crisis Suits will fit on the Commanders)--that's on you.
I'm happy with being able to potentially throw 4 items on a Commander. I never will since I like having Shield Generators on my stuff too much, but hey that's me.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Except they could limit the Coldstar commander separately.

Or they could limit it to one commander and fix other units in the army. Seriously, as clumsy as this solution was, it works, also, it might actually bring some other units back to the table.

Also, just looking at your HQ, you guys have amazing buffs already (that don't require passing a psychic test). The more I look, the more the arguments in this thread appear very disingenuous.

Darkstrider's ability is flat-out amazing, holy gak, I would kill for that in my army, especially at 45 points, I would do AMAZING things with the Structural Analyzer. But no, our "Structural Analyzer" comes attached to Mortarded and has a 7" range.

Or your Ethereals that can change their buff aura every turn. I mean, I know they'll die to a stiff wind in hand to hand, but if it's gotten to that point, you either fethed up or the game is going downhill fast anyways.

Am I missing something here? Is 45 points just prohibitively expensive in a Tau list for some reason?

Sorry, I'm just not getting it, how is this thread not utterly idiotic?

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Darkstrider's ability is flat-out amazing, holy gak, I would kill for that in my army, especially at 45 points, I would do AMAZING things with the Structural Analyzer. But no, our "Structural Analyzer" comes attached to Mortarded and has a 7" range.

Or your Ethereals that can change their buff aura every turn. I mean, I know they'll die to a stiff wind in hand to hand, but if it's gotten to that point, you either fethed up or the game is going downhill fast anyways.

Am I missing something here? Is 45 points just prohibitively expensive in a Tau list for some reason?

Sorry, I'm just not getting it, how is this thread not utterly idiotic?

So, to be fair:
Darkstrider isn't a "Tau Empire" character. He's a T'au Sept character; meaning you're locked into playing that specific group.
Structural Analyzer is also him granting it to one Infantry unit within a radius of him and then the effect gets placed onto an enemy unit he can see.

He's awesome, not saying he's not--just saying that he and Mortarion are two very different beasts.

I say this as someone who already has an Outrider Detachment planned of Darkstrider and 3 units of Pathfinders with 2 Broadsides. It's basically me recreating a Formation that existed in the previous edition.

 Kanluwen wrote:
So, to be fair:
Darkstrider isn't a "Tau Empire" character. He's a T'au Sept character; meaning you're locked into playing that specific group.
Structural Analyzer is also him granting it to one Infantry unit within a radius of him and then the effect gets placed onto an enemy unit he can see.

He's awesome, not saying he's not--just saying that he and Mortarion are two very different beasts.

I say this as someone who already has an Outrider Detachment planned of Darkstrider and 3 units of Pathfinders with 2 Broadsides. It's basically me recreating a Formation that existed in the previous edition.

Using this power as a lead in to Focused Fire combined with the Through Unity, Destruction Warlord trait, that Outrider detachment is nicely setting up whatever it is you've decided needs to die.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So, to be fair:
Darkstrider isn't a "Tau Empire" character. He's a T'au Sept character; meaning you're locked into playing that specific group.
Structural Analyzer is also him granting it to one Infantry unit within a radius of him and then the effect gets placed onto an enemy unit he can see.

He's awesome, not saying he's not--just saying that he and Mortarion are two very different beasts.

I say this as someone who already has an Outrider Detachment planned of Darkstrider and 3 units of Pathfinders with 2 Broadsides. It's basically me recreating a Formation that existed in the previous edition.

Using this power as a lead in to Focused Fire combined with the Through Unity, Destruction Warlord trait, that Outrider detachment is nicely setting up whatever it is you've decided needs to die.

Well gak, I didn't even think about that. I can add a Commander or a Fireblade into the Detachment for TUD(I really don't want to type out 'Through Unity, Destruction'...but man, that acronym is going to be great ), some Rail Rifles on some of the Pathfinders, Advanced Targeting Systems onto the Broadsides and potentially get that little bit nasty.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Except they could limit the Coldstar commander separately.

Or they could limit it to one commander and fix other units in the army. Seriously, as clumsy as this solution was, it works, also, it might actually bring some other units back to the table.

Crisis suits aren't going to come back as they are still outperformed by Commanders at killing tough targets and by fire warriors at everything else. Hammerheads with Ion Cannons might come back but Railguns won't as they're still awful. Broadsides are cheaper but railsides are still outperformed by missilesides. Skyrays are still utterly pointless.

GW has not fixed the issues which made Commanders the most point efficient shooting unit we had. So, even with the restrictions you're not going to see those other units come back as they still don't do the job they're meant to do.

If they fixed the other units, and costed the Commander appropriately, they wouldn't need to limit commanders. If they fixed it they wouldn't need their clumsy solution!

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Except they could limit the Coldstar commander separately.

Or they could limit it to one commander and fix other units in the army. Seriously, as clumsy as this solution was, it works, also, it might actually bring some other units back to the table.

Believe it or not I am ok with an HQ limit (applied equally and fairly to everyone). I just think it wasn't enough for this case.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Also, just looking at your HQ, you guys have amazing buffs already (that don't require passing a psychic test). The more I look, the more the arguments in this thread appear very disingenuous.

Master of War? The commander aura? You mean the one that requires being within 6" and only works once per game regardless of the number of commanders? The one with extra restrictions? The one that is made redundant by markerlights? This one's pointless right now.

Volley fire is solid though, so no one is complaining about that.

Ethereals are ok, but farsight enclaves will likely have a restriction.

Darkstrider and Longstrike are Tau sept so that's an extra restriction (but they are good). Shadowsun and Farsight are special characters whose special ability is Master of War a second time.

Your alao all assuming GW haven't removed some of these abilities as I don't think the characters have been leaked yet.

It's not a bad codex, not great but some of the decisions make no sence.

Ice_can wrote:

It's not a bad codex, not great but some of the decisions make no sence.

That sums up my feelings.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
GW has not fixed the issues which made Commanders the most point efficient shooting unit we had. So, even with the restrictions you're not going to see those other units come back as they still don't do the job they're meant to do.

Actually, they have, you just don't like the fix.

On the other point, I think you're wrong, honestly, I felt the same way when the Chaos early on, but really, you play for awhile, you start nailing down the combos and it all comes together.

I'm barely familiar with Tau and am already seeing nasty combos that have nothing to do with Commanders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

It's not a bad codex, not great but some of the decisions make no sence.

That sums up my feelings.

This sums up everyone's feeling about damned near every codex that has come out, seriously. This is about as useful as saying "flat-earthers make no sense", no gak some choices don't make sense.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
I'm barely familiar with Tau and am already seeing nasty combos that have nothing to do with Commanders.

How many of them feature Crisis Suits, Railsides, Hammerheads with Railguns, Vespid, Skyrays etc. ?

Fire Warrior spam, some pathfinders and drones, alongside quadfusion Coldstar Commanders, fireblades and Yvharas, all from Borkan, will be the next Tau netlist.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
I'm barely familiar with Tau and am already seeing nasty combos that have nothing to do with Commanders.

How many of them feature Crisis Suits, Railsides, Hammerheads with Railguns, Vespid, Skyrays etc. ?

Fire Warrior spam alongside Coldstar Commanders and Yvharas, all from Borkan, will be the next Tau netlist.

I'm not looking too closely at specific units since your base abilities, stratagems, and warlord traits synergize well with numerous units and weapon types.

Tau ability to manipulate wound rolls, AP, toughness combined with their ability to generate long range volume of fire dovetails perfectly into the existing gunline meta.

In other words, you have the tools, even you choose not to see them.

This wasn't the best way to fix Tau commander spam. I agree. But it's also not the end of the world this 7 page thread has made it out to be. The Tau dex isn't ruined. The world isn't ending. Not everything is on fire. You have 1 stupid stipulation you will have to live with until/if it changes. In the meantime you have more units than just commanders and the sky isn't falling. Every codex has duds, and the commander isn't even a dud. It's still great. It's just limited.

Sucks? Yeah.. kind of. Dumb? For sure. Going to field 1 commander pretty much every time anyway? Yup.

Time to get over it.

As has been mentioned repeatedly, the best solution would have been to also add some non-Commander HQ options. Generic Ghostkeel or Stealth 'heroes' that didn't give benefits, a generic Pathfinder HQ with Structural Analyzer-esque abilities, etc.

But hey. At least I know a few of the folks who were telling me to "get over it" when they nerfed Commissars(a unit I don't even use but felt was setting a terrible precedent) and Conscripts are pretty salty over this.

My Tau are going to do just fine though.

 Lance845 wrote:
This wasn't the best way to fix Tau commander spam. I agree. But it's also not the end of the world this 7 page thread has made it out to be. The Tau dex isn't ruined. The world isn't ending. Not everything is on fire. You have 1 stupid stipulation you will have to live with until/if it changes. In the meantime you have more units than just commanders and the sky isn't falling. Every codex has duds, and the commander isn't even a dud. It's still great. It's just limited.

Sucks? Yeah.. kind of. Dumb? For sure. Going to field 1 commander pretty much every time anyway? Yup.

Time to get over it.

Here's the thing, I agree with you. I just disagreed with the notion that the limit was a "good" idea by itself, which it seemed that's what people were claiming. My own list isn't even affected at all. So now that we all agree it's a clumsy rule and could have been better, I'm going go splurge on a new Ghostkeel

I don't understand how this will fix commander spam, 1 per detachment only really affects regular non-spamming players. What is stopping someone from taking 9 patrol detachments with 9 QFC and 9 squads of 5 fire warriors?

I have never spammed commanders, at most I take farsight a QFC and a coldstar. But now thanks to these ridiculous rules I have extremely limited options, as Farsight counts as a commander if I take him then all other commander varients aren't allowed leaving me with cadre fireblades and ethereals to fill in remaining HQ slots, I like fluff armies so ethereals are out. so in a massive brigade detachment there is one commander and minimum 2 fireblades.

Spyder335 wrote:
I don't understand how this will fix commander spam, 1 per detachment only really affects regular non-spamming players. What is stopping someone from taking 9 patrol detachments with 9 QFC and 9 squads of 5 fire warriors?

I have never spammed commanders, at most I take farsight a QFC and a coldstar. But now thanks to these ridiculous rules I have extremely limited options, as Farsight counts as a commander if I take him then all other commander varients aren't allowed leaving me with cadre fireblades and ethereals to fill in remaining HQ slots, I like fluff armies so ethereals are out. so in a massive brigade detachment there is one commander and minimum 2 fireblades.

Because most tournaments/matched play limits you to 3 detachments.

So why don't tournements just say no more then 3 commanders?

Clumsy isn't beggining to cut it.

I'm honestly thinking I''d prefer playing with the index over the codex, not only because the commander limit-but also the sheer stupidity of the coldstar buff, and the CiB buff-two things that very much did NOT need buffs, especially not these buffs.


Whoever wrote this codex was as clueless as it gets.
Silly restrictions on one hand, absurd cheese on the other, and half the codex is left unattended in a limbo of "well, it wasn't viable for three editions now, no point fixing it now", and in a few cases nerfing things nobody even ever bothered taking because they were overpriced.


Like, seriously.
Can I NOT take a coldstar, or two, or three when I try to play competitively with this stupid ability to pack four guns with it?
No. not doing so would be idiotic from how broken it is, and how it is obviously broken on a minor glance.



This codex is a trainwreck on all levels.

Yeah I'm sure no one will have any issues with playing against the index rather the codex so I'd think you'll be fine with that decision.

I know it has been said before but it just feels so dammed lazy, they couldn't figure out a work around so this is what we get. The only people that were commander spamming were tournament players, to me it should have been the tournament organisers that set the rules to stop this from happening. Make it a blanket no more then 3 of the same unit excluding troops, but in a world where a player is fine to take 2 daemon primarchs, or 12 psychers smite spamming whole armies in to the ground is fine its the Tau commander that's the issue.

Was Tau even dominating at tournaments?

No, not even close.

But if tau could take x6 or more of the new coldstar, they would crush anything in their path.

 BoomWolf wrote:
No, not even close.

But if tau could take x6 or more of the new coldstar, they would crush anything in their path.

So its almost as if they made the decision for a reason?!