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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/09 22:25:58
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Farseer_V2 wrote: BoomWolf wrote:No, not even close.
But if tau could take x6 or more of the new coldstar, they would crush anything in their path.
So its almost as if they made the decision for a reason?!
Commanders are the only HQ in the game that can pack four mid-range "heavy" weapons and they pay BS4 prices for BS2 efficiency. I don't think there are a lot of good reasons to let that roam free.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/09 22:31:35
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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Daedalus81 wrote: Farseer_V2 wrote: BoomWolf wrote:No, not even close.
But if tau could take x6 or more of the new coldstar, they would crush anything in their path.
So its almost as if they made the decision for a reason?!
Commanders are the only HQ in the game that can pack four mid-range "heavy" weapons and they pay BS4 prices for BS2 efficiency. I don't think there are a lot of good reasons to let that roam free.
So just make them pay more for the guns. Problem solved. Automatically Appended Next Post: Farseer_V2 wrote: BoomWolf wrote:No, not even close.
But if tau could take x6 or more of the new coldstar, they would crush anything in their path.
So its almost as if they made the decision for a reason?!
If you have to limit 5 units because one of them is ridiculously overpowered then the problem is with the overpowered one and that is what you should fix.
Why did the Coldstar suit need to gain extra hardpoints?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/09 22:33:36
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/09 22:42:16
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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Just to point out something since no-one else has yet from what I've seen - limiting the Commander to 2 weapons in the Codex wouldn't actually work.
It's a suggestion I've seen thrown around in this thread a number of times as a better fix... however due to how the rules treat option discrepancies between index and codex you'd still be able to take 4 weapons using the index wargear options while using the codex datasheet.
The only ways were a hard cap or points changes, and I'm sure people would be complaining even more if Commander skyrocketed to crazy points levels.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/09 22:43:27
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Dakka Veteran
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A Town Called Malus wrote:
Farseer_V2 wrote: BoomWolf wrote:No, not even close.
But if tau could take x6 or more of the new coldstar, they would crush anything in their path.
So its almost as if they made the decision for a reason?!
If you have to limit 5 units because one of them is ridiculously overpowered then the problem is with the overpowered one and that is what you should fix.
Why did the Coldstar suit need to gain extra hardpoints?
Maybe they're OK with 3 and not 5? Maybe they even worked to balanced it around the idea that you could take 3.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/09 22:47:01
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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Farseer_V2 wrote: A Town Called Malus wrote: Farseer_V2 wrote: BoomWolf wrote:No, not even close. But if tau could take x6 or more of the new coldstar, they would crush anything in their path. So its almost as if they made the decision for a reason?! If you have to limit 5 units because one of them is ridiculously overpowered then the problem is with the overpowered one and that is what you should fix. Why did the Coldstar suit need to gain extra hardpoints? Maybe they're OK with 3 and not 5? Maybe they even worked to balanced it around the idea that you could take 3. But three coldstar commanders are obviously way more powerful than three XV8 commanders. So why are both limited to three? And why does it need to be three with each in separate detachments? If the answer is "the coldstar is more points expensive" then why couldn't they point the commander, bodyguards and crisis suits at a level where the commander was still useful but not better in every way compared to Crisis and bodyguard suits, which removes the source of the spam?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/09 22:51:14
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/09 22:47:26
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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But then you've potentially created the problem where they're so many points they are no longer viable. Especially at BS2.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/09 22:55:18
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Fresh-Faced New User
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so everyone knows its QFC that were the problem why not just make it special characters don't count in this, allowing us a couple of options.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/09 22:57:52
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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Daedalus81 wrote:
But then you've potentially created the problem where they're so many points they are no longer viable. Especially at BS2.
Which is where some good aura abilities, support systems and signature systems come in.
So you can make a super killy commander but he will cost a lot, you can make a super buffing commander who has no offensive capability, you can make a hybrid commander with some buffing equipment and some guns, a super tanky commander with Iridium armour and shield generator, who sacrifices firepower for more endurance and so on and so forth.
Instead there is still basically no reason to give the commander anything but guns.
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The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/09 23:00:25
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Regular Dakkanaut
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A Town Called Malus wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:
But then you've potentially created the problem where they're so many points they are no longer viable. Especially at BS2.
Which is where some good aura abilities, support systems and signature systems come in.
So you can make a super killy commander but he will cost a lot, you can make a super buffing commander who has no offensive capability, you can make a hybrid commander with some buffing equipment and some guns, a super tanky commander with Iridium armour and shield generator, who sacrifices firepower for more endurance and so on and so forth.
Instead there is still basically no reason to give the commander anything but guns.
Not only that, but the Coldstar is so much better than the standard one now. It's absurd to me that they looked at the commander and thought, "we need less of these, let's limit them" and in the exact same action, made a BETTER version.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/09 23:00:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/09 23:01:02
Subject: Re:Tau "Fix"
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Was Tau winning a lot inn tournaments?
Commander spam never really seemed that competitive to me, what can they really do against 30 ork boyz? or really any large infantry army, they are heavy hitters against big elite units but that's really it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/09 23:03:26
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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Farseer_V2 wrote: BoomWolf wrote:No, not even close.
But if tau could take x6 or more of the new coldstar, they would crush anything in their path.
So its almost as if they made the decision for a reason?!
A slowed reason of thier own making.
First, there was no reason to give the coldstar the ability to take any 4 guns. heck, give him any two guns and tau players would CELEBRATE. at any 4, we facepalm on how obviously of a bad idea it was.
And then you need to realize-this limit does NOT stop commander spam, it only stops people who want to play a simple non-cheesy battalion with 2-3 commanders.
If you want to suit spam, you only need to spam patrols and "tax" yourself with 35 points worth of fire warriors per commander. except fire warriors are decent enough that it's not that much of a tax, and you'd probably want a few anyways to hold objectives and provide anti-horde shooting.
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can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/09 23:05:08
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Deadawake1347 wrote:
Not only that, but the Coldstar is so much better than the standard one now. It's absurd to me that they looked at the commander and thought, "we need less of these, let's limit them" and in the exact same action, made a BETTER version.
Do we know of any datasheet changes?
Of course it's very likely they didn't differentiate them by looking at the TS sorcerer only being useful by virtue of being cheaper.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/09 23:16:05
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Matt.Kingsley wrote:Just to point out something since no-one else has yet from what I've seen - limiting the Commander to 2 weapons in the Codex wouldn't actually work.
It's a suggestion I've seen thrown around in this thread a number of times as a better fix... however due to how the rules treat option discrepancies between index and codex you'd still be able to take 4 weapons using the index wargear options while using the codex datasheet.
The only ways were a hard cap or points changes, and I'm sure people would be complaining even more if Commander skyrocketed to crazy points levels.
My God, you're right...
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf
"Use the codex version of your models datasheet, but you can choose to use the index version for its wargear options"
Still they could just release an FAQ along the lines of "Yeah, nah. They only get two guns. Nice try bucko." The rules are meant to be updatable right?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Deadawake1347 wrote:
Not only that, but the Coldstar is so much better than the standard one now. It's absurd to me that they looked at the commander and thought, "we need less of these, let's limit them" and in the exact same action, made a BETTER version.
Get ready for Quad fusion/fusion blade/onager gauntlet Vior'la sept Coldstar trios of doom with 'Reroll wound rolls of 1' Warlord. Running around 40" with no penalty from objective to objective, from tank to tank avoiding return fire because of strike teams being closer... With automated repair and system jammer stratagems to keep them running all game.
It's exactly like an anime, hmmm....
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/09 23:28:40
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/09 23:39:27
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I have 4 commanders.
A coldstar, a misslemander and two fully magnetized suits.
Overall the limit of one commander per detachment does not mess with my lists in a huge way. But with the Sept's having useful traits i am disappointed that i cannot dump two commanders into a detachment, it is artificially limiting.
But i find it very insulting that we end up dealing with GW's piss poor design elements (detachments) and index screw ups. The index was an over corrected mess because of 7th. GW created commander spam due to the over costed mess that was the index and the supreme command detachment.
If GW goes through and slaps a 0-1 HQ restriction on daemon princes, hive tyrants, custodes ect, then fine. I can live with the bad game design choice. It is not like tau has allies they can soup with...
however If it is just tau getting singled out with our oh so robust 3 options, fireblade, commander and ethreal. I will gleefully send complaints to GW daily, demanding everyone get nerfed so they can share in tau's joy.
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In war there is poetry; in death, release. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/09 23:47:39
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes
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clownshoes wrote:I have 4 commanders.
A coldstar, a misslemander and two fully magnetized suits.
Overall the limit of one commander per detachment does not mess with my lists in a huge way. But with the Sept's having useful traits i am disappointed that i cannot dump two commanders into a detachment, it is artificially limiting.
But i find it very insulting that we end up dealing with GW's piss poor design elements (detachments) and index screw ups. The index was an over corrected mess because of 7th. GW created commander spam due to the over costed mess that was the index and the supreme command detachment.
If GW goes through and slaps a 0-1 HQ restriction on daemon princes, hive tyrants, custodes ect, then fine. I can live with the bad game design choice. It is not like tau has allies they can soup with...
however If it is just tau getting singled out with our oh so robust 3 options, fireblade, commander and ethreal. I will gleefully send complaints to GW daily, demanding everyone get nerfed so they can share in tau's joy.
If they were to put a 0-1 Limit on Shield Captains, the Custodes wouldn't be able to run a Battalion Detatchment for pure Custodes with out running Valoris. Regardless of whether or not I agree with the 0-1 Limit on Battlesuit Commanders (I dont agree with it persay) the Tau at least have other Generic HQ choices which would make sense for most armies.
At the very least they should have made a Sub-Commander Battlesuit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/09 23:49:34
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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Dandelion wrote: Matt.Kingsley wrote:Just to point out something since no-one else has yet from what I've seen - limiting the Commander to 2 weapons in the Codex wouldn't actually work.
It's a suggestion I've seen thrown around in this thread a number of times as a better fix... however due to how the rules treat option discrepancies between index and codex you'd still be able to take 4 weapons using the index wargear options while using the codex datasheet.
The only ways were a hard cap or points changes, and I'm sure people would be complaining even more if Commander skyrocketed to crazy points levels.
My God, you're right...
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf
"Use the codex version of your models datasheet, but you can choose to use the index version for its wargear options"
Still they could just release an FAQ along the lines of "Yeah, nah. They only get two guns. Nice try bucko." The rules are meant to be updatable right?
They could, but then you end up with the confusion that could follow from the Tau Commander not following the same rules as everything else (or worse, a bunch of units losing previously legal options because of the Tau Commander).
Especially if it's released via FaQ rather than Errata, and even that would still be a bit problematic.
It's just a mess really. I do still think the better option would have been to give all suit weapons two point costs (1 for BS4+, the other for BS2+), but I can see why a hard cap on the number of Commanders in a detachment was the preferred option by GW - it's an easy fix to the problem of people playing armies of nothing by 7+ Commanders with accompanying drones.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/09 23:58:55
Subject: Re:Tau "Fix"
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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They could just update the flowchart. Give it different wording or something. For example: "you can choose to use wargear available to the index version" That way it's just the wargear itself and not the amount.
But whatever, I'll live with it (only got one commander anyway so...)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/10 00:34:30
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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Farseer_V2 wrote: BoomWolf wrote:No, not even close.
But if tau could take x6 or more of the new coldstar, they would crush anything in their path.
So its almost as if they made the decision for a reason?!
Instead of say, balancing the cost, or limiting them to 2 weapons/2 support systems?
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DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/10 01:22:23
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Wolfblade wrote:
Instead of say, balancing the cost, or limiting them to 2 weapons/2 support systems?
Then we'd be hearing how they're useless, because they can't take 4 weapons and that people have to go modify their models by snapping weapons off. I'm still not convinced of a good cost balance.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/10 01:23:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/10 01:45:14
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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I'm way ahead of you guys.
0-Commander and 4-Ethereal lists, new meta I promise.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/10 01:46:31
Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/10 02:16:39
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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Daedalus81 wrote: Wolfblade wrote:
Instead of say, balancing the cost, or limiting them to 2 weapons/2 support systems?
Then we'd be hearing how they're useless, because they can't take 4 weapons and that people have to go modify their models by snapping weapons off. I'm still not convinced of a good cost balance.
Except they'd still be better than crisis teams. And what do you mean by "good cost balance"? Like, properly pointed?
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DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/10 02:20:25
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Galas wrote:I'm way ahead of you guys.
0-Commander and 4-Ethereal lists, new meta I promise.
Pft. Fireblade spam, yo.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/10 02:23:59
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Daedalus81 wrote: Wolfblade wrote:
Instead of say, balancing the cost, or limiting them to 2 weapons/2 support systems?
Then we'd be hearing how they're useless, because they can't take 4 weapons and that people have to go modify their models by snapping weapons off. I'm still not convinced of a good cost balance.
Couldn't they have hit them with a "for each weapon this model fires after the second it suffers a -1 to hit penalty" rule?
Then a 4 fusion commander is only hitting on a 4+
Then tweak the Crisis suit points a bit (with the same rule for consistency) and then they'd work more as they're supposed to, as leaders rather than lone wolf rambos/
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/10 02:28:34
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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Fireblades is what people will expect. You need to do the unexpected. Be the water my friend.
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Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/10 09:10:59
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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KROOT SHAPER SPAM!
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can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/10 11:10:55
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles
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BoomWolf wrote: Farseer_V2 wrote: BoomWolf wrote:No, not even close.
But if tau could take x6 or more of the new coldstar, they would crush anything in their path.
So its almost as if they made the decision for a reason?!
A slowed reason of thier own making.
First, there was no reason to give the coldstar the ability to take any 4 guns. heck, give him any two guns and tau players would CELEBRATE. at any 4, we facepalm on how obviously of a bad idea it was.
And then you need to realize-this limit does NOT stop commander spam, it only stops people who want to play a simple non-cheesy battalion with 2-3 commanders.
If you want to suit spam, you only need to spam patrols and "tax" yourself with 35 points worth of fire warriors per commander. except fire warriors are decent enough that it's not that much of a tax, and you'd probably want a few anyways to hold objectives and provide anti-horde shooting.
3 Detachment limit in matched play means you can only patrol cheese in Narrative/Open play. Otherwise we would just spam Battalions with 3x Commanders and 3x Firewarriors. Each commander would have a unit that isn't deepstriking to counteract the 50% and you get 3cp for each battallion. Same thing with outrider's and drones/pathfinders.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/10 11:22:10
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Fresh-Faced New User
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I was thinking maybe only one commander, and any other commanders are sub-commanders, same rules but bs 4
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/10 11:43:06
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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Spyder335 wrote:I was thinking maybe only one commander, and any other commanders are sub-commanders, same rules but bs 4
Why would a sub-commander be no better at shooting than a Fire Warrior Shas'la?
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The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/10 12:15:18
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Jbz` wrote: Daedalus81 wrote: Wolfblade wrote:
Instead of say, balancing the cost, or limiting them to 2 weapons/2 support systems?
Then we'd be hearing how they're useless, because they can't take 4 weapons and that people have to go modify their models by snapping weapons off. I'm still not convinced of a good cost balance.
Couldn't they have hit them with a "for each weapon this model fires after the second it suffers a -1 to hit penalty" rule?
Then a 4 fusion commander is only hitting on a 4+
Then tweak the Crisis suit points a bit (with the same rule for consistency) and then they'd work more as they're supposed to, as leaders rather than lone wolf rambos/
With the number of people who think Tau should be BS3 plus marker light bonuses I can envision the complaints already...
...hitting on 5s with the secondition weapon with our elites? Whare we? Orks?!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/10 12:24:14
Subject: Tau "Fix"
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Norn Queen
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Tau basically have to be BS 4 by default. If they were not then 5 ML would be 2+ rerolling 1s. For an entire army with great ranged weapons thats just stupid.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/10 12:26:19
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
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