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 Lance845 wrote:
Tau basically have to be BS 4 by default. If they were not then 5 ML would be 2+ rerolling 1s. For an entire army with great ranged weapons thats just stupid.

Hardly anyone wants to give the entire army BS 3+. But many people would appreciate it if the big suits got BS 3+ (like hammerheads) mostly because they have heavy weapons.

Dandelion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Tau basically have to be BS 4 by default. If they were not then 5 ML would be 2+ rerolling 1s. For an entire army with great ranged weapons thats just stupid.

Hardly anyone wants to give the entire army BS 3+. But many people would appreciate it if the big suits got BS 3+ (like hammerheads) mostly because they have heavy weapons.

Crisis bodyguards as well, maybe. They are the elite of the Fire Caste, the final step before becoming a commander. That they are no more skilled than a fresh Crisis shas'ui is a bit silly.

Dandelion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Tau basically have to be BS 4 by default. If they were not then 5 ML would be 2+ rerolling 1s. For an entire army with great ranged weapons thats just stupid.

Hardly anyone wants to give the entire army BS 3+. But many people would appreciate it if the big suits got BS 3+ (like hammerheads) mostly because they have heavy weapons.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Crisis bodyguards as well, maybe. They are the elite of the Fire Caste, the final step before becoming a commander. That they are no more skilled than a fresh Crisis shas'ui is a bit silly.

So just so we are all clear. You want all the big things with all the best guns and the most wounds to have BS 3+ so that with 5 ML they are 2+ rerolling 1s.

Ah yeah. That makes it way more reasonable.

Because Tau generally have a problem with having to move and then shoot with their big guns.

I play both Tau and Nids. My Hammer heads MAYBE move 1 or 2 times in a 5-6 turn game. Like... exceedingly rarely. My exocrines are the same and their range is full on gak comparatively.

Dandelion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Tau basically have to be BS 4 by default. If they were not then 5 ML would be 2+ rerolling 1s. For an entire army with great ranged weapons thats just stupid.

Hardly anyone wants to give the entire army BS 3+. But many people would appreciate it if the big suits got BS 3+ (like hammerheads) mostly because they have heavy weapons.

Elite Imperial Superheavies don;t get it.

Named tau coomanders - fine, Ignoring the move and shoot penalty would be more fitting for Tau but need to balance with the potential markerlights buffs

 Lance845 wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Tau basically have to be BS 4 by default. If they were not then 5 ML would be 2+ rerolling 1s. For an entire army with great ranged weapons thats just stupid.

Hardly anyone wants to give the entire army BS 3+. But many people would appreciate it if the big suits got BS 3+ (like hammerheads) mostly because they have heavy weapons.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Crisis bodyguards as well, maybe. They are the elite of the Fire Caste, the final step before becoming a commander. That they are no more skilled than a fresh Crisis shas'ui is a bit silly.

So just so we are all clear. You want all the big things with all the best guns and the most wounds to have BS 3+ so that with 5 ML they are 2+ rerolling 1s.

Ah yeah. That makes it way more reasonable.

Because Tau generally have a problem with having to move and then shoot with their big guns.

I play both Tau and Nids. My Hammer heads MAYBE move 1 or 2 times in a 5-6 turn game. Like... exceedingly rarely. My exocrines are the same and their range is full on gak comparatively.

It's not a balance fix, it's just that it feels weird.

Honestly, though, I would change markerlights to be a seeker missile delivery system exclusively so that support systems aren't redundant and we can get passed the "but with markerlights it's OP".

But, whatever. I don't care that much. It's just a passing thought.

I play both Tau and Nids. My Hammer heads MAYBE move 1 or 2 times in a 5-6 turn game. Like... exceedingly rarely. My exocrines are the same and their range is full on gak comparatively

I play Cities of Death with lots of terrain, so things move every turn just to get a shot off.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Tau basically have to be BS 4 by default. If they were not then 5 ML would be 2+ rerolling 1s. For an entire army with great ranged weapons thats just stupid.

Hardly anyone wants to give the entire army BS 3+. But many people would appreciate it if the big suits got BS 3+ (like hammerheads) mostly because they have heavy weapons.

Elite Imperial Superheavies don;t get it.

Named tau coomanders - fine, Ignoring the move and shoot penalty would be more fitting for Tau but need to balance with the potential markerlights buffs

Switch markerlight hits back to being a resource which must be spent to get effects, remove the re-rolls 1 ability of it and limit the +1 to rolls to hit to only being allowed to be used once per unit which shoots at the marker'd target at a cost of 2 markerlight hits or something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Tau basically have to be BS 4 by default. If they were not then 5 ML would be 2+ rerolling 1s. For an entire army with great ranged weapons thats just stupid.

Hardly anyone wants to give the entire army BS 3+. But many people would appreciate it if the big suits got BS 3+ (like hammerheads) mostly because they have heavy weapons.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Crisis bodyguards as well, maybe. They are the elite of the Fire Caste, the final step before becoming a commander. That they are no more skilled than a fresh Crisis shas'ui is a bit silly.

So just so we are all clear. You want all the big things with all the best guns and the most wounds to have BS 3+ so that with 5 ML they are 2+ rerolling 1s.

Ah yeah. That makes it way more reasonable.

Because Tau generally have a problem with having to move and then shoot with their big guns.

I play both Tau and Nids. My Hammer heads MAYBE move 1 or 2 times in a 5-6 turn game. Like... exceedingly rarely. My exocrines are the same and their range is full on gak comparatively.

I argued since the Riptide was introduced that its guns (especially the Ion) should have had drastically shorter ranges. My fix for the original 6th edition and 7th edition Riptide was to decrease the IA range (maybe to 24" for Nova and 36" for standard) and remove its standard overcharged profile. That meant that it couldn't sit at the back line with impunity due to its toughness, had to Nova charge to get a large blast which meant no 3++, couldn't move and fire a large blast in the same turn (as the NOVA IA is an ordnance weapon) which meant the player had to be careful with positioning if they intended to fire a large blast. All of those changes gave opponents ways of countering the Riptide, reduced range meant it couldn't sit behind stationary bubble wrap the entire game and it had to get in close to make the most of its firepower. It also had to sacrifice survivability to increase its damage output for both of its main weapons, as opposed to being able to go for the 3++ every turn without it affecting its ability to drop pie plates.

I want mobile Tau but the way to get mobile Tau is not to penalise us for moving and not to give us weapons and abilities which require us to sit still.

I am fine with the idea of mobile Tau.

All the suggestions to switch ML back to a resource in exchange for +1 BS are asking for better default performance and less reliance on Marker Lights.

Thats not a fair trade. You JUST get better but your synergy mechanic becomes less useful and less needed.

The system they have in place right now means Tau have to work together. (Fluffy and good game design) to boost the army as a whole. You call targets and then turn your armies attention onto them. People can try to focus down your Markerlights, but honestly they are dirt cheap and plentiful and now you have dirt cheap stratagems to make them even better. Anyone trying to kill your ML support is missing all the big guns that are killing them.

Rerolling 1s is big. Getting a +1 to BS for the ENTIRE ARMY is also big. Sure it comes with the caveat of needing to build to it against specific targets but that target is fethed by your high str high ap weaponry.

Tau are looking to be in a GREAT spot right now. Being upset because you can't build a list of nothing but commanders, riptides, ghostkeels, and stormsurges is insane. Especially because you kind of can. All those things come with drones and drones can provide markerlights.

Tau have TONS of tools at their disposal and more than 1 way to get the synergies they need to do the things they want to be doing. I am pumped for the codex right now. I have like... 5 list ideas rolling around in my head that I think would be at least semi to very competitive and incredibly fun to play and play against. Yet, this forum looks like Tau players are bigger fething whiners then Grey Knights.

To be honest my problem with even elite crisis suits like bodyguards being +4bs is that it just feels wrong.

Why veterans and tempestus represent their better training by stats by those crisis bodyguard dont? If they become too powerfull with markerlight support just make them more expensive.

But its not something that really affects me, because I don't play suit-based Tau armies, I use vehicles, infantry and auxiliaries.

I've played tau since they were introduced to 40k and GW has never stuck to an army design for tau. Originally it was mass infantry that owned the shooting phase vrs infantry but was grot like in CC. The suits carried the heavy firepower but most of it was short ranged and relied on jsj and movement to avoid the counter punch. Hamerheads where good against tanks and little else.

Ghostkeels and riptides are somewhat fluffy, the ghostkeel feels very tau short range but hits like a train and uses stealth to survive being in the teeth of the enemy kill box.
The riptide makes sense given how badly broadsides have been neutered over the 4 editions since. But it doesn't fulfil the same role with the HBC the IA did. Just an odd design space to balance such different profiles. The stormsurge is odd in that it feels like it should be the answer to knights but they aren't realy that great against a knight but they can free up a lot of other firepower to surround and kill the night which is very tau.

The problem most players have with 8th edition tau is it plays in a very not tau fashion. It's more like old IG static gunlines but without nlos artillery. I'd love to be able to build a proper fluffy force of tau Fire warriors and big suits with a farsight deepstike suit element. But right now crisis suits don't realy work. I would love to have crisis bodyguards with farsight as its supper fluffy but cruch and mathhammer says I'd loose so much efficiency its not viable in a competitive environment.

For casual its still pretty niffty and fluffy to me but GW did such a hard sell on suit only lists they created a monster and the players that signed upto this being the suit army are finding it's impossible to play the army GW sold them.
But cold stars with fusion just seams like a kit seller as it is apowerful but to me it just doesn't feel like a tau way to fight, it's borderline suicidal to have a comander on their own taking on the enemy heavy hitters at close range.

What Tau really needed IMO was an incentive to take regular suits over tons of Commanders. I think Tau really should have gotten BS-based pricing on suit guns like Guard have for their specials. Cheaper guns for the BS 4 crisis teams and more expensive ones for the BS 2 untargettable commanders. That would solve the issue. You could include that with the commander limit in matched play and it wouldn't be a problem. It's the same heavy handed style of nerf they hit commissars with, it just didn't ruin the unit at all like in that case.

Tau are getting some decent stratagems and they're an easy army to brigade. Not quite guard easy, but still very easy. That's going to help a lot, esp now that fire warriors got a huge points drop(1 ppm less and the turrets are free now)

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Spyder335 wrote:
I was thinking maybe only one commander, and any other commanders are sub-commanders, same rules but bs 4

Why would a sub-commander be no better at shooting than a Fire Warrior Shas'la?

Typo sorry, I ment bs 3, still good just not op

cmspano wrote:
What Tau really needed IMO was an incentive to take regular suits over tons of Commanders. I think Tau really should have gotten BS-based pricing on suit guns like Guard have for their specials. Cheaper guns for the BS 4 crisis teams and more expensive ones for the BS 2 untargettable commanders. That would solve the issue. You could include that with the commander limit in matched play and it wouldn't be a problem. It's the same heavy handed style of nerf they hit commissars with, it just didn't ruin the unit at all like in that case.

Tau are getting some decent stratagems and they're an easy army to brigade. Not quite guard easy, but still very easy. That's going to help a lot, esp now that fire warriors got a huge points drop(1 ppm less and the turrets are free now)

Actually, the turrets are not free as now you pay for the gun, and in the past you didn't.


Anyways. yes, a tau brigade is rather easy. if you want to use fireblades and ethreals.
Fireblade-42 points
Fire warriors-35 points (5 models)
Firesight Marksmen-24 points
Kroot hourds-16 points (4 models)

One can clock a base brigade at 618 points.
It still annoys me to no end that I am outright forced to take ethreals and fireblades though. I want my commanders in suits damnit.

Ice_can wrote:
Ghostkeels and riptides are somewhat fluffy, the ghostkeel feels very tau short range but hits like a train and uses stealth to survive being in the teeth of the enemy kill box.
The riptide makes sense given how badly broadsides have been neutered over the 4 editions since. But it doesn't fulfil the same role with the HBC the IA did. Just an odd design space to balance such different profiles. The stormsurge is odd in that it feels like it should be the answer to knights but they aren't realy that great against a knight but they can free up a lot of other firepower to surround and kill the night which is very tau.

No, no they aren't - big suits to do one thing is the sort of approach that the Tau were specifically against, preferring to use a bunch of smaller suits, tanks and aircraft to deal with big targets instead. This allows for a more gradual degradation of effectiveness (losing one crisis suit team vs. the Big Stompy Mech of Stupidity), and allows for those resources to be dispersed across a number of sites if needed. Can't un-Voltron a Riptide if you need to respond to five different attacks...

But the bean-counters wanted to sell Big Stompy Mechs of Stupidity, so here we are...

I'm glad the bean counters got their way, because I like the big stompy mechs! I really couldn't care less about the fluff, though, so maybe the advent of mega-suits would bother me more if that stuff mattered to me?

In any event, I'm definitely very disappointed that Crisis Suits haven't improved very much in the codex. They're still prohibitively overpriced, and there's really no reason to use them at all, much less in lieu of Commanders. I agree with the conceptual weirdness of battlesuits only having BS4, but in game terms, it makes decent sense. I like most of what GW did with the Tau codex, but they needed to do some more points wrangling, in my opinion. Crisis Suits need some love!

Some kind of buff to our plasma would have been nice. A range increase to 30", or 2 damage. Short of something to make it not plainly inferior to imperial plasma, it needed a price cut.

No Tau plasma is in tge right place imperial plasma got stupid buffed and need fixing. Two OP wepaons do not equal balance

Ice_can wrote:
No Tau plasma is in tge right place imperial plasma got stupid buffed and need fixing. Two OP wepaons do not equal balance

Imperial plasma is OP because of the overcharged statline. Tau plasma always being an inferior choice to Ion and Fusion is not "in a good place"

MilkmanAl wrote:
I'm glad the bean counters got their way, because I like the big stompy mechs! I really couldn't care less about the fluff, though, so maybe the advent of mega-suits would bother me more if that stuff mattered to me?

A, There are a number of settings and ranges where Big Stompy Anime Robots of Stupidity fit. 40k isn't one of them. Perhaps you've heard of this thing called Gundam - it might suit your interests.

B, Background should always be a consideration, and, in an ideal world, it would also matter to players, given that some of what they're spending on kits goes towards the development of it.

It always tickles me that people have this image of the fluff in their head that they place on some kind of pedestal.

THIS is what 40k is. What GW do with 40k isn't 40k. Only my head canon is 40k!

It doesn't matter that no edition of 40k has been free of retcons. Or that GW changes gak even within an edition.

40k has whatever GW says it has. Big stompy suits included.

 Dysartes wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:
I'm glad the bean counters got their way, because I like the big stompy mechs! I really couldn't care less about the fluff, though, so maybe the advent of mega-suits would bother me more if that stuff mattered to me?

A, There are a number of settings and ranges where Big Stompy Anime Robots of Stupidity fit. 40k isn't one of them. Perhaps you've heard of this thing called Gundam - it might suit your interests.

B, Background should always be a consideration, and, in an ideal world, it would also matter to players, given that some of what they're spending on kits goes towards the development of it.

The funny part is that background can actually explain why we're seeing these big suits becoming more and more commonplace to an extent.

Taros was supposed to be one of the first times the Imperium used heavy Titans against the Tau and fluff has it that it wasn't long after that the Tau started encountering Tyranid Hive Fleets in their space. Fluff has it that things like Greater Daemons and the like just weren't a thing the Tau knew about, outside of a few particular instances like Farsight's experiences.
The more the Tau start to encounter things outside of small threats, the more it makes sense for these things to actually start being used en masse.

Now, I'll totally admit that is just an attempt to headcanon it to 'work' but I don't think it breaks the fluff of the Tau, a technologically adaptive race that has changed combat doctrines and embraced new tech in their fluff before.

 Mr Morden wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

More than 1 per 2 battallion detachments would be generous fluff wise so idea of having battallion with 3 company commanders is just silly.

Fluff wise I thought 3 companies normally make up a battalion?

Platoon 5 squads, company 2-5 platoons, battalion 2-3 companies. Detachment can't fit that many squads. Battallion detachment is reinforced platoon

Looking at the current codex p15 - Regimental Organisation

It confirms that units are seldom anywhere near their paper strength which is also true of historical units on our world. The Infantry "regiment" detailed only contains 3 companies (!) each of 3 platoons of 3 squads each.

Which is wait for it...3x3x3=27 squads. Battallion detachment can fit how many troops? I seriously doubt it was 27 troop choices. Even BRIGADE can't fit that many.

Battallion detachment can't even fit ONE company of that size. So how it can have 3 company commanders?

Again: It's not battallion despite name. It's reinforced platoon. GW picked just cool names for detachments rather than actually related what size forces they are. Battallion and brigade sounds lot cooler than reinforced platoon and double platoon for example.-

 Dysartes wrote:

A, There are a number of settings and ranges where Big Stompy Anime Robots of Stupidity fit. 40k isn't one of them. Perhaps you've heard of this thing called Gundam - it might suit your interests.

40K has always had big stupid robots in it.

 Dysartes wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:
I'm glad the bean counters got their way, because I like the big stompy mechs! I really couldn't care less about the fluff, though, so maybe the advent of mega-suits would bother me more if that stuff mattered to me?

A, There are a number of settings and ranges where Big Stompy Anime Robots of Stupidity fit. 40k isn't one of them. Perhaps you've heard of this thing called Gundam - it might suit your interests.

"Stop liking what I don't like."

Hey, is there any leak about Tau Sacea Sept and what do they have specific? I tried search and even the community articles didnt have information...

There is a full leak out already.

Sa'cra tactics is +1Ld and reroll a single to-hit per unit shooting.

Warlord trait is reducing the number of models lost to moral by 1 to units within 6" (worthless)

Relic reduces charge distance against the warlord by 2" (worthless)

Stratagem is 2 CP, pick a character, it puts a markerlight on an enemy unit it sees and every enemy unit within 6" of it. (questionable)

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:
I'm glad the bean counters got their way, because I like the big stompy mechs! I really couldn't care less about the fluff, though, so maybe the advent of mega-suits would bother me more if that stuff mattered to me?

A, There are a number of settings and ranges where Big Stompy Anime Robots of Stupidity fit. 40k isn't one of them. Perhaps you've heard of this thing called Gundam - it might suit your interests.

"Stop liking what I don't like."

Basically my thought. Like I said, I don't really care about the background and think the models are cool in form and function. Sorry I'm not enjoying the game the way you think I should.

 Lance845 wrote:

Rerolling 1s is big. Getting a +1 to BS for the ENTIRE ARMY is also big. Sure it comes with the caveat of needing to build to it against specific targets

It's really interesting how many players ignore the cost of markerlights, or treat this caveat as meaningless. Tau critics act like the whole army automatically gets +1 to hit and rerolls against anything they want as free. Tau players frequently evaluate a unit the same way. Markerlights have a cost that absolutely should be factored in.

 Dysartes wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:
I'm glad the bean counters got their way, because I like the big stompy mechs! I really couldn't care less about the fluff, though, so maybe the advent of mega-suits would bother me more if that stuff mattered to me?

A, There are a number of settings and ranges where Big Stompy Anime Robots of Stupidity fit. 40k isn't one of them. Perhaps you've heard of this thing called Gundam - it might suit your interests.

B, Background should always be a consideration, and, in an ideal world, it would also matter to players, given that some of what they're spending on kits goes towards the development of it.

What is the functional distinction between an Eldar Wraithknight/Wraithlord if you like (They're functionally identical in form/style, one is just bigger) and a Tau suit such that you think the WL fits in the aesthetic of 40k while the Tau suit does not?

Is it just that the Wraithlord has been around longer that it's now considered "part of the aesthetic"?

xmbk wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Rerolling 1s is big. Getting a +1 to BS for the ENTIRE ARMY is also big. Sure it comes with the caveat of needing to build to it against specific targets

It's really interesting how many players ignore the cost of markerlights, or treat this caveat as meaningless. Tau critics act like the whole army automatically gets +1 to hit and rerolls against anything they want as free. Tau players frequently evaluate a unit the same way. Markerlights have a cost that absolutely should be factored in.

It SHOULD be factored in but so should a units maximum upward potential. It's not possible for me to make my termagants 3+ BS rerolling 1s. And it's not possible for me to make the vast majority of my army that way at the same time when focus firing.

 BoomWolf wrote:
It still annoys me to no end that I am outright forced to take ethreals and fireblades though. I want my commanders in suits damnit.

And we have the crux of the complaint.

Increase the cost: So you want commanders to cost 500 points? Because to limit them to the numbers GW clearly wants on the field, that is what you're asking.

But I can just include more patrols: Yes, in a couple formats this is possible, but in Matched Play, which is the accepted competitive format, you get 3.

Commander spam wasn't even that good: Again, this is a dumb and disingenuous argument (we all know this is just an argument to have the best of both worlds). Obviously under the new rules, it was going to be pretty amazing, this is only true from an Index perspective, which is no longer valid.

They could have just given them fewer hard points: As pointed out previously, no, they could not given their previous rulings on Index units.

Everybody has squishy commanders that are included just because they bring specific abilities to the table, you haven't been singled out for punishment and harassment, get over it. You have an amazing codex that is unbelievably synergistic with the currently dominant meta.