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Dandelion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Except i have had great times with some hammerheads and longstrike. And most people didnt like them for the expense of their guns for their output not their bs.

Whats available on a hammerhead is VERY different from whats available on a crisis team.

Output is directly related to BS. If with BS 3+ Hammerheads were not good, and people had trouble making them good with markerlights then markerlights are not a counterpoint to increasing BS. Individual performance is easily adjusted by points cost or changing the weapons in question. Right now a fusion crisis team costs 300 pts or so. It costs at least 80 pts to get 5 markers on the target. That's 380 pts to get 9 melta hitting on 2s rerolling ones. Against a Russ that's 9 hits we'll say, 4-5 wounds and on average one dead Russ, but maybe not. Add in the lack of durability for the suits and it's hardly game breaking.

 Lance845 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, fluff does not and should not = crunch.

If fluff was crunch shadow in the warp would be table wide, give a blanket -1 ld which would become -3 to psykers and cause perils on any failed manifest instead of only double 1s and 6s.

Fluff is a crap argument for anything in the game mechanics.

Then on that we disagree. And there is literally nothing that will change my mind.

Fluff is the whole reason this game exists today. It's the only reason most people are still in the hobby (me included). 40k is not the most tactical game out there, and all the rules are based on the fluff. Fluff drives the game mechanics. A marine is tougher than a guardsman, a fire warrior has better gear than a guardsman etc... "Shadow in the Warp" only exists as a rule because of the fluff. Just because things aren't as bonkers as the fluff purports does not mean they are not related (also, propaganda and bad reports exist in lore so...). The fluff and the rules evolve together.

If we applied your logic, I could make Tau super crazy good in close combat because the fluff doesn't matter, just the crunch. I could make marines only as good as a guardsman because that way it's easy to balance. The fluff doesn't matter. Maybe Custodes should have only been terminator level, because crunch not fluff. How about we make all the factions the exact same, just the models are different? You know, crunch.

If I wanted to play a game purely for crunch I would be playing chess.

if fluff = crunch, 5-10 marines would be enough to take out just about any army. While the fluff is fun, as Lance845 said, it'd be terrible for balance.

To hit is directly related to bs. Not pure out put. A bs 3+ platform shooting a 90 point heavy 1 gun with no ap and 1 dmg is gak output for the points. Hammerheads had poor total output for their cost without bringing 3 with 1 being longstrike.

And even then it wasnt the greatest thing in the world (though functional).

3 crisis suits at bs 2+ rerolling 1s with the guns they could take would make commanders obsolete.



As above, if your entire argument for crunch os fluff then you dont have an opinion that matters when it comes to mechanics. Its all nonsensical bs that would turn the game into a unfun nightmare to play.

 Lance845 wrote:
To hit is directly related to bs. Not pure out put. A bs 3+ platform shooting a 90 point heavy 1 gun with no ap and 1 dmg is gak output for the points. Hammerheads had poor total output for their cost without bringing 3 with 1 being longstrike.

And even then it wasnt the greatest thing in the world (though functional).

3 crisis suits at bs 2+ rerolling 1s with the guns they could take would make commanders obsolete.



As above, if your entire argument for crunch os fluff then you dont have an opinion that matters when it comes to mechanics. Its all nonsensical bs that would turn the game into a unfun nightmare to play.

at least, if GW is balancing it.

 Wolfblade wrote:

if fluff = crunch, 5-10 marines would be enough to take out just about any army. While the fluff is fun, as Lance845 said, it'd be terrible for balance.

Lance said "fluff does not and should not=crunch". I took that to mean that the fluff has 0 place in the rules at all. If I was wrong on that account then I retract my statement.

Regardless, we know that fluff accounts are dubious. In one story 100 Marines can take a whole system, in another Abaddon failed 12 times to take one with multiple legions+ demons+cultists. I take that to mean that the fluff is massively distorted by rumors and propaganda. Just how it should be.

There are a few things we do know of though for certain:
- Marines are tougher and better than humans -> this is represented in the rules
- Orks believe in strength in numbers -> also represented
- tau dislike close combat -> also represented

These are the things I was considering. So while 10 marines beating a whole army is ludicrous, giving them 2W would be fluffy.

To hit is directly related to bs. Not pure out put. A bs 3+ platform shooting a 90 point heavy 1 gun with no ap and 1 dmg is gak output for the points. Hammerheads had poor total output for their cost without bringing 3 with 1 being longstrike.

And even then it wasnt the greatest thing in the world (though functional).

Then define output. A 90 pt platform with BS 3+ has a better output than the same platform with BS4+. Also you just proved that Hammerheads weren't all that great even though they had BS 3+ which was your whole point of contention. You claimed BS 2+ rerolling ones would be OP but here you have an example of that not being the case. Other factors exist, and those factors can be addressed.

3 crisis suits at bs 2+ rerolling 1s with the guns they could take would make commanders obsolete.

Good. Commanders shouldn't be doing their job in the first place.

By output I mean it's net output (shocking I know). BS 3+ can have a BETTER output then a 4+ but thats only relative to a 4+ platform. Not necessarily GOOD output. Its ACTUAL output is average unsaved wounds vs intended target per point. Hitting is just the first step in that equation.

Since you seem to be having trouble understanding the Hammerheads I suggest we just drop it. You aren't getting what I am saying and I am finding it not worth explaining to you.

Commanders ARE the good example to show this. If Crisis suits were 3+ then nobody would take anything but crisis suits. Their weapon options are great and markerlights would put them at 2+ rerolling 1s easy enough. Firewarriors and most other units would have no place. It would be codex crisis suit not codex Tau.

Honestly the fix they should have made was to change Commanders to BS 3+. Change Mont'ka and Kouyon to be used instead of shooting and usable once a turn instead of once a game. Make their default range 18" and have the masters of Montka and Kouyon (Farsight and Shadowsun) increase the range of their respective order by 6"

Now commanders are only slightly better than a crisis suit by default and their buff is big enough and useful enough that you don't necessarily want to be shooting with them all the time.

THAT is how you adjust the units to keep everything useful and balanced.

Even fluff wise Tau are not exceptionally trained shooters.They are average shooters with the forethought to make use of thei technology to help and enhance their troops. They are the only race in the game with the idea to use laser sights and then go a step further and network that taregeting data across their entire force with a HUD to help them find track and hit targets. It's not any particular Taus individual ability that makes them great shooters. It's this data network and their use of practical technology.

You guys want to hear some BS? Apparently the lead designer for writing the Tau codex only picked up the Army within the past 2 weeks. So the Project Lead had no idea how the Army actually plays!

Wayniac wrote:
You guys want to hear some BS? Apparently the lead designer for writing the Tau codex only picked up the Army within the past 2 weeks. So the Project Lead had no idea how the Army actually plays!

I would dismiss that out of hand, but with all the absolutely unbelievable things coming out nowadays...

Apparently he said it on the stream that he was a recent convert to the greater good and just picked up the Army like 2 weeks ago there was a big Reddit blow up over it

Wayniac wrote:
You guys want to hear some BS? Apparently the lead designer for writing the Tau codex only picked up the Army within the past 2 weeks. So the Project Lead had no idea how the Army actually plays!

If this is true, it's shockingly bad management to have someone with zero concept lead such a project.
It explains why frequently taken support systems have been removed and made into strategums.
Why non of the spet traits make much in the way of sence, Combined with strategums.
It would also be understandable why they don't understand why players hate crisis suits current rules.

It also explains why the necton codex looks like its been designed by a necron player and the tau one just looks half baked by comparison.

FWIW here is the reddit thread where people are talking about it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Tau40K/comments/83x2cj/gw_tau_designers_commentary/

Apparently in the twitch stream he gets rules (that he wrote!) wrong and insinuates that he only picked up Tau recently so likely did not play them while writing the rules.

Lead designer is a guy named James Gallagher (sp?). Bald guy with a long beard, looks like he could be part of Metallica or something.

Wayniac wrote:
Apparently he said it on the stream that he was a recent convert to the greater good and just picked up the Army like 2 weeks ago there was a big Reddit blow up over it

Wow. And people wonder why I say GW's rule authors need to be fired for their sheer incompetence...

Given how close the necron codex is behind tau, I suspect and I know this sound horrible the B team codex while necrons got the A team. Some of their stuff just sounds brutal from the leaks. Charictors dealing multiple mortal wounds plus decent stats and self heeling for d3 wounds per turn and a strategum to allow them to regain more and their charictors sub 10 wounds so untragetable
Monoliths deal motal wounds to chargers (not overwatch) bye bye blood angles lists. Index crons where in a bad place but with forgefire I'm worried that if that box is even remotely balance knights are going to be more OP than ever

I might be a few pages too late, but when people complain about Tau suits being the same BS as a Guardsman I like to explain it like this...

I'm pretty sure in a 40k board game BS is on a scale of 1 - 100, as opposed to what it used to be of 1-10.

So in old terms a Crisis Suit was BS3, a Guardsman is BS3, and a Marine is BS4. Now while they look similar, on a 1-100 scale it would actually be like so;

Crisis Suit = 34
Guardsman = 25
Marine = 36

So they all round to their respective 40k BS, but actually a Suit is technically a lot better than a Guardsman and ALMOST as good as a Marine.

Hope this makes sense.

Wayniac wrote:
FWIW here is the reddit thread where people are talking about it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Tau40K/comments/83x2cj/gw_tau_designers_commentary/

Apparently in the twitch stream he gets rules (that he wrote!) wrong and insinuates that he only picked up Tau recently so likely did not play them while writing the rules.

Without having seen the stream and with the fact that the reddit never explicitly calls out what he does/doesn't get wrong("During the T'au Q&A session on Friday, the team that worked on the T'au codex got a number of rules wrong, including how markerlights work, what was changed, and why. They were unable to answer basic questions about the Codex or the rules." doesn't really tell us how or what he got wrong), I find it a bit silly that all this is being made of that.

Lead designer is a guy named James Gallagher (sp?). Bald guy with a long beard, looks like he could be part of Metallica or something.

And he's had two Tau armies in the past; both Sa'cea. He even posted up a painted Breacher last week on Twitter, testing a new color scheme for Sa'cea.

Part of the whole gimmic of Tau is that they are mediocre at best but make up for it by using technology.

(It's the technology of the suit that has the BS, not the guy inside it, who is probably crap.)

This is done in game with the markerlight mechanic mainly. If you get rid of that and just give them native BS 3+, you get rid of the character and flavor of the faction.

Ice_can wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
You guys want to hear some BS? Apparently the lead designer for writing the Tau codex only picked up the Army within the past 2 weeks. So the Project Lead had no idea how the Army actually plays!

If this is true, it's shockingly bad management to have someone with zero concept lead such a project.
It explains why frequently taken support systems have been removed and made into strategums.

No, it doesn't. Because that has happened to literally every army. Auspex used to be an item you could take on Marines, Chimeras used to have Mobile Command Vehicle as a special rule built into their points cost(which is, IMO, still there--explaining why they feel so heavily overcosted for what they are). There's more examples I'm sure, but those are two off the top of my head.

Why non of the spet traits make much in the way of sence, Combined with strategums.
It would also be understandable why they don't understand why players hate crisis suits current rules.

It also explains why the necton codex looks like its been designed by a necron player and the tau one just looks half baked by comparison.

Or, hear me out...it doesn't. The Tau book is finally requiring you to actually play all elements of the army rather than being able to spam one thing or the other. It's a breath of fresh air and has made me unshelf my Tau.

 Lance845 wrote:

Guess what? Everything in the game is conditional and has a cost. Its a dumb point to make.

Yeah, you might be a little too heavily invested in this. Step back, take a breath, stop being rude.

Markerlights should be factored into the cost of a unit, not assumed. Anything else is simplistic. If you can't grasp that, fine. But stop moving the goalposts and throwing insults around. This isn't the forum for that.

xmbk wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Guess what? Everything in the game is conditional and has a cost. Its a dumb point to make.

Yeah, you might be a little too heavily invested in this. Step back, take a breath, stop being rude.

Markerlights should be factored into the cost of a unit, not assumed. Anything else is simplistic. If you can't grasp that, fine. But stop moving the goalposts and throwing insults around. This isn't the forum for that.

Given the number of ways to include Markerlights, yes you should always treat a unit as having access to them. Pretending or arguing that they won't be there is like saying Guard will never have an Officer present to issue Orders.

I mean, it's possible--but the player doing that is probably running them as soup.

 Kanluwen wrote:

xmbk wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Guess what? Everything in the game is conditional and has a cost. Its a dumb point to make.

Yeah, you might be a little too heavily invested in this. Step back, take a breath, stop being rude.

Markerlights should be factored into the cost of a unit, not assumed. Anything else is simplistic. If you can't grasp that, fine. But stop moving the goalposts and throwing insults around. This isn't the forum for that.

Given the number of ways to include Markerlights, yes you should always treat a unit as having access to them. Pretending or arguing that they won't be there is like saying Guard will never have an Officer present to issue Orders.

I mean, it's possible--but the player doing that is probably running them as soup.

But then it becomes a case of people assuming Fire Warriors have 5 markerlight hits against unit X, Riptides have 5 against Y, Commanders have 5 against Z and so on and so forth.
Since most of the time the whole army isn't going to be shooting at one single target, and that there is a limited amount of markerlights you can take due to points and detachments lmits, and that points spent on markerlight sources are points not spent on firepower, assuming all units will have 5 markerlight hits at all times can make some units seem way better than they would actually play.

You have a limited amount of markerlight hits per turn, you need to decide which units you want marked. The unit you want to mark to hit with fusion blasters is most likely not the unit you want to be firing your Fire Warriors at and vice versa. Markerlights spent marking one unit are markerlights you cannot use to mark a different unit.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

But then it becomes a case of people assuming Fire Warriors have 5 markerlight hits against unit X, Riptides have 5 against Y, Commanders have 5 against Z and so on and so forth.
Since most of the time the whole army isn't going to be shooting at one single target, and that there is a limited amount of markerlights you can take due to points and detachments lmits, and that points spent on markerlight sources are points not spent on firepower, assuming all units will have 5 markerlight hits at all times can make some units seem way better than they would actually play.

People assume that Guardsmen always have FRFSRF and continually used the idea of 10 Lasguns getting that boost(despite my constant harranguing about the fact you can't do that).

You have a limited amount of markerlight hits per turn, you need to decide which units you want marked. The unit you want to mark to hit with fusion blasters is most likely not the unit you want to be firing your Fire Warriors at and vice versa. Markerlights spent marking one unit are markerlights you cannot use to mark a different unit.

Sure there's a limited amount of Markerlights you can take; but there's a limited amount of Officers who can issue Orders, etc. It's a resource that you'll have to learn to manage.

If you want a unit to guarantee a kill, you're going to devote more Markerlight hits to it.
If you want a unit to guarantee hits, you're going to devote Markerlight hits to it.
Etc.

Now Tau players will have to focus fire down specific targets. I'm excited to play them this way personally. But I have 30 Pathfinders and 24ish Marker Drones.

 Kanluwen wrote:

xmbk wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Guess what? Everything in the game is conditional and has a cost. Its a dumb point to make.

Yeah, you might be a little too heavily invested in this. Step back, take a breath, stop being rude.

Markerlights should be factored into the cost of a unit, not assumed. Anything else is simplistic. If you can't grasp that, fine. But stop moving the goalposts and throwing insults around. This isn't the forum for that.

Given the number of ways to include Markerlights, yes you should always treat a unit as having access to them. Pretending or arguing that they won't be there is like saying Guard will never have an Officer present to issue Orders.

I mean, it's possible--but the player doing that is probably running them as soup.

Big difference between an untargetable character surround by chaff and a 10man squad of targetable T3 5+ (the minimum number for an average 5 hits)

 Wolfblade wrote:

Big difference between an untargetable character surround by chaff and a 10man squad of targetable T3 5+ (the minimum number for an average 5 hits)

And when that "untargetable character surrounded by chaff" needs a Command Squad(which is targetable) to extend his range beyond 6 inches...

I'm not trying to say the two are the same, but it is worth mentioning that an officer with everything killed around him has nobody to issue Orders to. Just like a Markerlight heavy list with nobody to shoot the things has problems.

 Lance845 wrote:
By output I mean it's net output (shocking I know). BS 3+ can have a BETTER output then a 4+ but thats only relative to a 4+ platform. Not necessarily GOOD output. Its ACTUAL output is average unsaved wounds vs intended target per point. Hitting is just the first step in that equation.

Since you seem to be having trouble understanding the Hammerheads I suggest we just drop it. You aren't getting what I am saying and I am finding it not worth explaining to you.

You said something to the effect of "we should consider that BS 3+ gets buffed to BS 2+ rerolling ones before suggesting changes". You're whole point was that it would be OP on suits. But, I brought up Hammerheads because despite their native BS 3+ they were still not worth taking, especially next to commanders. So I can only conclude that BS 2+ rerolling ones on it's own is not enough to outright discard the idea of BS 3+ for only 3 suits.

 Lance845 wrote:

Commanders ARE the good example to show this. If Crisis suits were 3+ then nobody would take anything but crisis suits. Their weapon options are great and markerlights would put them at 2+ rerolling 1s easy enough. Firewarriors and most other units would have no place. It would be codex crisis suit not codex Tau.

You seem to be forgetting that I am suggesting this change for 3 units: bodyguards, Ghoskeels and Riptides. If you don't like the change to crisis, why not at least the other two? Secondly, Fire warriors would still be hugely viable. No one is going to waste their suits for S5 guns. Thirdly, all three of those options clock in at 200+ pts, and would require full markerlight support to get that BS 2+. So, no I don't think it'll break balance. In fact, I think it'll make the game better since Tau players won't use untargetable commanders as much.

 Lance845 wrote:

Honestly the fix they should have made was to change Commanders to BS 3+. Change Mont'ka and Kouyon to be used instead of shooting and usable once a turn instead of once a game. Make their default range 18" and have the masters of Montka and Kouyon (Farsight and Shadowsun) increase the range of their respective order by 6"

Now commanders are only slightly better than a crisis suit by default and their buff is big enough and useful enough that you don't necessarily want to be shooting with them all the time.

THAT is how you adjust the units to keep everything useful and balanced.

That is one of many ways to achieve balance.

 Lance845 wrote:

Even fluff wise Tau are not exceptionally trained shooters.They are average shooters with the forethought to make use of thei technology to help and enhance their troops. They are the only race in the game with the idea to use laser sights and then go a step further and network that taregeting data across their entire force with a HUD to help them find track and hit targets. It's not any particular Taus individual ability that makes them great shooters. It's this data network and their use of practical technology.

Tau are trained from birth to be soldiers. They only train in shooting. How are they not "exceptionally trained soldiers"?

Also, Shas'vre are not your average troops: (from the wiki)
"However, it is only once a Fire Warrior has become skilled in the use of an XV8 Crisis Battlesuit in combat that they can truly rise up through the ranks. The mantle of command is only earned once a Fire Warrior has attained the rank of Shas'Vre and leads their own XV8 Crisis Battlesuit team. From there, they must continue to prove their worth in battle before being chosen to be part of another Tau Commander's bodyguard. At that point, proof of accomplishment in not only the tactical, but also the strategic arts of war may earn the Commander’s approval and elevation from Shas'Vre to the rank of Shas'El."

Added emphasis.

As you can see, Shas'vre are the most elite Tau troops aside from commanders, in fact they are only one step below commanders. They can only reach that rank if they are skilled enough. The way I see it, if IG veterans warrant BS 3+ then so should Shas'vre. And like I said earlier, it would not necessarily break the game. I actually think it would help it. If I thought it would be bad for gameplay I wouldn't be suggesting it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Big difference between an untargetable character surround by chaff and a 10man squad of targetable T3 5+ (the minimum number for an average 5 hits)

And when that "untargetable character surrounded by chaff" needs a Command Squad(which is targetable) to extend his range beyond 6 inches...

I'm not trying to say the two are the same, but it is worth mentioning that an officer with everything killed around him has nobody to issue Orders to. Just like a Markerlight heavy list with nobody to shoot the things has problems.

I thought officers only needed a vox caster, they don't need command squads. So long as they hang out with their infantry they can get that range boost.

Dandelion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Even fluff wise Tau are not exceptionally trained shooters.They are average shooters with the forethought to make use of thei technology to help and enhance their troops. They are the only race in the game with the idea to use laser sights and then go a step further and network that taregeting data across their entire force with a HUD to help them find track and hit targets. It's not any particular Taus individual ability that makes them great shooters. It's this data network and their use of practical technology.

Tau are trained from birth to be soldiers. They only train in shooting. How are they not "exceptionally trained soldiers"?

This is kind of arguable. We get told that they train with the technology and tactics from a young age.

Also, Shas'vre are not your average troops: (from the wiki)
"However, it is only once a Fire Warrior has become skilled in the use of an XV8 Crisis Battlesuit in combat that they can truly rise up through the ranks. The mantle of command is only earned once a Fire Warrior has attained the rank of Shas'Vre and leads their own XV8 Crisis Battlesuit team. From there, they must continue to prove their worth in battle before being chosen to be part of another Tau Commander's bodyguard. At that point, proof of accomplishment in not only the tactical, but also the strategic arts of war may earn the Commander’s approval and elevation from Shas'Vre to the rank of Shas'El."

Added emphasis.

As you can see, Shas'vre are the most elite Tau troops aside from commanders, in fact they are only one step below commanders. They can only reach that rank if they are skilled enough. The way I see it, if IG veterans warrant BS 3+ then so should Shas'vre. And like I said earlier, it would not necessarily break the game. I actually think it would help it. If I thought it would be bad for gameplay I wouldn't be suggesting it.

I mean, if you want to argue it...IG veterans warrant BS3+ because they don't get given a mech suit. Even Veteran Tank Crews don't get BS3+ outside of the Shadowsword firing at a Titanic keyworded enemy.

I can understand your argument, but at the same time I can understand why it's not there.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Big difference between an untargetable character surround by chaff and a 10man squad of targetable T3 5+ (the minimum number for an average 5 hits)

And when that "untargetable character surrounded by chaff" needs a Command Squad(which is targetable) to extend his range beyond 6 inches...

I'm not trying to say the two are the same, but it is worth mentioning that an officer with everything killed around him has nobody to issue Orders to. Just like a Markerlight heavy list with nobody to shoot the things has problems.

I thought officers only needed a vox caster, they don't need command squads. So long as they hang out with their infantry they can get that range boost.

They don't need Command Squads, but Command Squads do get taken to fill the role of Vox+Special Weapons caddy. Depends on the list in question.

However it doesn't change the point that the "chaff" is targetable and killing it removes the advantage.

 Peregrine wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Apparently he said it on the stream that he was a recent convert to the greater good and just picked up the Army like 2 weeks ago there was a big Reddit blow up over it

Wow. And people wonder why I say GW's rule authors need to be fired for their sheer incompetence...

Agreed

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
You guys want to hear some BS? Apparently the lead designer for writing the Tau codex only picked up the Army within the past 2 weeks. So the Project Lead had no idea how the Army actually plays!

If this is true, it's shockingly bad management to have someone with zero concept lead such a project.
It explains why frequently taken support systems have been removed and made into strategums.

No, it doesn't. Because that has happened to literally every army. Auspex used to be an item you could take on Marines, Chimeras used to have Mobile Command Vehicle as a special rule built into their points cost(which is, IMO, still there--explaining why they feel so heavily overcosted for what they are). There's more examples I'm sure, but those are two off the top of my head.

Why non of the spet traits make much in the way of sence, Combined with strategums.
It would also be understandable why they don't understand why players hate crisis suits current rules.

It also explains why the necton codex looks like its been designed by a necron player and the tau one just looks half baked by comparison.

Or, hear me out...it doesn't. The Tau book is finally requiring you to actually play all elements of the army rather than being able to spam one thing or the other. It's a breath of fresh air and has made me unshelf my Tau.

To be fair I probably did over react but the concept that someone with no investment being the lead, not manager will always results in a project being good enough not great. If your invested you'll play for extra time to get the job done right not meh close enough. You'll go the extra step of checking things yourself. Also in something like 40k where good rules make the game come alive and give people options and counters, and bad rules lead to spammy cheese fests its important to get that extra 20% of having someone invested in a faction.

Tau rules are far from the worst in 8th edition, and it feels like a step up from index. Personally I've never done the full JSJ suit spam that some have or the triple riptide cheese (quite frankly that formation should have required crackers it was so cheese), but broken formations aside.

If you arn't actively playing the army your writing the codex for how do you understand what units work and which don't?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Apparently he said it on the stream that he was a recent convert to the greater good and just picked up the Army like 2 weeks ago there was a big Reddit blow up over it

Wow. And people wonder why I say GW's rule authors need to be fired for their sheer incompetence...

Agreed

It's funny that said author also mentioned he'd had two Sa'cea armies prior and was picking up a new army under the new book.

xmbk wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Guess what? Everything in the game is conditional and has a cost. Its a dumb point to make.

Yeah, you might be a little too heavily invested in this. Step back, take a breath, stop being rude.

Markerlights should be factored into the cost of a unit, not assumed. Anything else is simplistic. If you can't grasp that, fine. But stop moving the goalposts and throwing insults around. This isn't the forum for that.

1) I don't care and I am not getting upset. You are on the internet. Everyone on the internet means less than nothing to me.

2) I didn't insult you or anyone else. I said it was a dumb point to make, not that you were dumb,

3) I wasn't saying Markerlights need to be factored into other units point costs. I said Markerlights need to be factored in when designing the units. What that unit would be capable of when Markerlights are in play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
By output I mean it's net output (shocking I know). BS 3+ can have a BETTER output then a 4+ but thats only relative to a 4+ platform. Not necessarily GOOD output. Its ACTUAL output is average unsaved wounds vs intended target per point. Hitting is just the first step in that equation.

Since you seem to be having trouble understanding the Hammerheads I suggest we just drop it. You aren't getting what I am saying and I am finding it not worth explaining to you.

You said something to the effect of "we should consider that BS 3+ gets buffed to BS 2+ rerolling ones before suggesting changes". You're whole point was that it would be OP on suits. But, I brought up Hammerheads because despite their native BS 3+ they were still not worth taking, especially next to commanders. So I can only conclude that BS 2+ rerolling ones on it's own is not enough to outright discard the idea of BS 3+ for only 3 suits.

With WHAT WEAPONS! Calculate the whole thing.

 Lance845 wrote:

Commanders ARE the good example to show this. If Crisis suits were 3+ then nobody would take anything but crisis suits. Their weapon options are great and markerlights would put them at 2+ rerolling 1s easy enough. Firewarriors and most other units would have no place. It would be codex crisis suit not codex Tau.

You seem to be forgetting that I am suggesting this change for 3 units: bodyguards, Ghoskeels and Riptides. If you don't like the change to crisis, why not at least the other two? Secondly, Fire warriors would still be hugely viable. No one is going to waste their suits for S5 guns. Thirdly, all three of those options clock in at 200+ pts, and would require full markerlight support to get that BS 2+. So, no I don't think it'll break balance. In fact, I think it'll make the game better since Tau players won't use untargetable commanders as much.

Again... look at the guns you are trying to make 2+ rerolling 1s. Is it so hard a concept to understand?

 Lance845 wrote:

Honestly the fix they should have made was to change Commanders to BS 3+. Change Mont'ka and Kouyon to be used instead of shooting and usable once a turn instead of once a game. Make their default range 18" and have the masters of Montka and Kouyon (Farsight and Shadowsun) increase the range of their respective order by 6"

Now commanders are only slightly better than a crisis suit by default and their buff is big enough and useful enough that you don't necessarily want to be shooting with them all the time.

THAT is how you adjust the units to keep everything useful and balanced.

That is one of many ways to achieve balance.

 Lance845 wrote:

Even fluff wise Tau are not exceptionally trained shooters.They are average shooters with the forethought to make use of thei technology to help and enhance their troops. They are the only race in the game with the idea to use laser sights and then go a step further and network that taregeting data across their entire force with a HUD to help them find track and hit targets. It's not any particular Taus individual ability that makes them great shooters. It's this data network and their use of practical technology.

Tau are trained from birth to be soldiers. They only train in shooting. How are they not "exceptionally trained soldiers"?

Many IG regiments are also trained from birth. gak, tyranid bioforms are literally genetically designed from the ground up to serve a single purpose. Shouldn't they ALL be BS 2+? Again, fluff is not crunch. Dumb argument to make.

 Wolfblade wrote:

Spoiler:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Even fluff wise Tau are not exceptionally trained shooters.They are average shooters with the forethought to make use of thei technology to help and enhance their troops. They are the only race in the game with the idea to use laser sights and then go a step further and network that taregeting data across their entire force with a HUD to help them find track and hit targets. It's not any particular Taus individual ability that makes them great shooters. It's this data network and their use of practical technology.

Tau are trained from birth to be soldiers. They only train in shooting. How are they not "exceptionally trained soldiers"?

This is kind of arguable. We get told that they train with the technology and tactics from a young age.

Also, Shas'vre are not your average troops: (from the wiki)
"However, it is only once a Fire Warrior has become skilled in the use of an XV8 Crisis Battlesuit in combat that they can truly rise up through the ranks. The mantle of command is only earned once a Fire Warrior has attained the rank of Shas'Vre and leads their own XV8 Crisis Battlesuit team. From there, they must continue to prove their worth in battle before being chosen to be part of another Tau Commander's bodyguard. At that point, proof of accomplishment in not only the tactical, but also the strategic arts of war may earn the Commander’s approval and elevation from Shas'Vre to the rank of Shas'El."

Added emphasis.

As you can see, Shas'vre are the most elite Tau troops aside from commanders, in fact they are only one step below commanders. They can only reach that rank if they are skilled enough. The way I see it, if IG veterans warrant BS 3+ then so should Shas'vre. And like I said earlier, it would not necessarily break the game. I actually think it would help it. If I thought it would be bad for gameplay I wouldn't be suggesting it.

I mean, if you want to argue it...IG veterans warrant BS3+ because they don't get given a mech suit. Even Veteran Tank Crews don't get BS3+ outside of the Shadowsword firing at a Titanic keyworded enemy.

I can understand your argument, but at the same time I can understand why it's not there.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Big difference between an untargetable character surround by chaff and a 10man squad of targetable T3 5+ (the minimum number for an average 5 hits)

And when that "untargetable character surrounded by chaff" needs a Command Squad(which is targetable) to extend his range beyond 6 inches...

I'm not trying to say the two are the same, but it is worth mentioning that an officer with everything killed around him has nobody to issue Orders to. Just like a Markerlight heavy list with nobody to shoot the things has problems.

I thought officers only needed a vox caster, they don't need command squads. So long as they hang out with their infantry they can get that range boost.

They don't need Command Squads, but Command Squads do get taken to fill the role of Vox+Special Weapons caddy. Depends on the list in question.

However it doesn't change the point that the "chaff" is targetable and killing it removes the advantage.

Until they kill said chaff however (or, atleast every model with a vox caster) the buff source is untargetable and active with no rolls required to activate

Since it's 1 vox per Infantry, Veteran, or Command Squad(you can't use non-<Regiment> voxes BTW), that's a bit easier to do than you think when it requires the Officer to be within 3" of the Vox.

unlike marketing where every dead model is a direct blow to the effectiveness of the system (to a point where if you don't get 4or 5, you're stuck with 2 and 3 and those are most likely worthless), and that's ignoring that moving makes the buffs even more unreliable.

Every dead model is a blow to the effectiveness of the system, but virtually every model in the army gets to benefit from the system. This is the thing that I feel like many people either gloss over or downplay.

Are there some choices in there that are less than optimal? Sure. The Seeker+Destroyer Missile one isn't great but it's not bad either. It has its place.