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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Well except the Vindicators aren't really killing infantry that well either and have to be close, which means they likely did move.

For the sake of fun though we will assume they didn't move. That's only 2.5 shots more in a more dangerous position (They're D6 on 5 man units right?) And you're wounding everything the same besides T5. You still want dedicated anti-infantry.

We'll you're not popping guardsmen with them, but more elite stuff. Against IG i'd be aiming for Linebreaker as i'm sure to hit tons of units. They'll definitely need support, which is why I envision a Daemon Prince running behind them healing and putting -1 to hit on the weakest and making anything good in CC a little hesitant. Space marines would have to think of something else for support - maybe a dreadnought. Depending on targets they may only need to move the first turn, which there's CP to ignore penalty for one or just Linebreaker to start.

I ran one in my Glass City GT list. It did fine. Not great, but fine. It died quickly one game. 2 games it didn't die at all. Things of note, it blew a carnefex to paste on turn 2 and turned a few tyrant guards into paste following that. Against a triple Wraithknight list, it was pretty nice having that strength 10. Other than that, it barely made its point back or broke even.

So tested the 3 out tonight, had them backed with a dark shroud for a little extra survivabilty, got to say the point about T8 was spot on, it really helped.

I got them up the board asap as I was playing guard and got VERY lucky turn 1 shooting, rolled 7 shots between them firing at a tank commander he left too far forward, 6 hits later and got 5,5,3,4,1,2 for wounds and 6,6,4 and 3 for damage, very surprised and so was he, way above average on the hits, they then spent the rest of the game playing distraction from my gunline as he was determined to get them out of his backfield, pretty much just kept plinking away at his tanks and baneblade (which nuked 2 of the vindis by end of game), all in all not amazing but cheap enough to run as a distraction, the dark shroud really really helped keep them alive.

 Formosa wrote:
So tested the 3 out tonight, had them backed with a dark shroud for a little extra survivabilty, got to say the point about T8 was spot on, it really helped.

I got them up the board asap as I was playing guard and got VERY lucky turn 1 shooting, rolled 7 shots between them firing at a tank commander he left too far forward, 6 hits later and got 5,5,3,4,1,2 for wounds and 6,6,4 and 3 for damage, very surprised and so was he, way above average on the hits, they then spent the rest of the game playing distraction from my gunline as he was determined to get them out of his backfield, pretty much just kept plinking away at his tanks and baneblade (which nuked 2 of the vindis by end of game), all in all not amazing but cheap enough to run as a distraction, the dark shroud really really helped keep them alive.

Sounds more like the dark shroud is what allowed them to be that good. Without it I assume they would have been blown away much quicker.

Ice_can wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
So tested the 3 out tonight, had them backed with a dark shroud for a little extra survivabilty, got to say the point about T8 was spot on, it really helped.

I got them up the board asap as I was playing guard and got VERY lucky turn 1 shooting, rolled 7 shots between them firing at a tank commander he left too far forward, 6 hits later and got 5,5,3,4,1,2 for wounds and 6,6,4 and 3 for damage, very surprised and so was he, way above average on the hits, they then spent the rest of the game playing distraction from my gunline as he was determined to get them out of his backfield, pretty much just kept plinking away at his tanks and baneblade (which nuked 2 of the vindis by end of game), all in all not amazing but cheap enough to run as a distraction, the dark shroud really really helped keep them alive.

Sounds more like the dark shroud is what allowed them to be that good. Without it I assume they would have been blown away much quicker.

Yep that's accurate, the combination of cheap T8 and -1 to hit was a deal breaker, it meant that the battle cannons that would usually shred my tanks were hitting on a 5+ and my shroud was always turbo boosting for the 4++ so it also survived fairly easily, but the main thing was that these cheap tanks were able to distract from my main force which kept firing away all game.

It is a fire magnet quite often which is pretty good IMO. It can take some effort to eliminate too.

Ice_can wrote:

Sounds more like the dark shroud is what allowed them to be that good. Without it I assume they would have been blown away much quicker.

T8 and 33 wounds has a role in that as well.

Needs more testing! I want to see Linebreaker blowing gak up.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Sounds more like the dark shroud is what allowed them to be that good. Without it I assume they would have been blown away much quicker.

T8 and 33 wounds has a role in that as well.

Needs more testing! I want to see Linebreaker blowing gak up.

Agreed, sadly going away for a few weeks with work so will test more when I get back

I reckon it could easily become a very solid unit with the addition of an extra rule - that it can fire its Demolisher on the move without penalty (it’s a siege tank!) and the Leman Russ’ Grinding Advance rule (so fire twice if it moved half its M stat or less). It might need a modest price bump to say 135-140 points but it’d be worthwhile.

kombatwombat wrote:
I reckon it could easily become a very solid unit with the addition of an extra rule - that it can fire its Demolisher on the move without penalty (it’s a siege tank!) and the Leman Russ’ Grinding Advance rule (so fire twice if it moved half its M stat or less). It might need a modest price bump to say 135-140 points but it’d be worthwhile.

I actually like this idea. At the very least the ability to ignore the -1 to hit for moving would go a long way.

What about something to the effect of, if you don't move you can shoot the cannon 36" but if you move it's 24" with a -1 penalty?

 Primark G wrote:
It is a fire magnet quite often which is pretty good IMO. It can take some effort to eliminate too.

Yep. I think it could work as a decent Distraction Carnifex. The gun is nasty enough that the enemy probably wants to stop it, and it is tough enough that it will take some effort to destroy.

Compared to a twinlas razorback - I would much prefer the vindi. The extra wound and survivability/flexability is just great. The predator seems to have it beat though - plus it's stratagem is MUCH better. If you've never had guilliman buffing 3 preds with kill shot stratagem and just watch everything fall to your las and autocannon barrage. You haven't truly had fun in this game.

In general all the marine tanks would benefit a great deal from chapter tactics.They should instantly be granted the benefit.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Compared to a twinlas razorback - I would much prefer the vindi. The extra wound and survivability/flexability is just great. The predator seems to have it beat though - plus it's stratagem is MUCH better. If you've never had guilliman buffing 3 preds with kill shot stratagem and just watch everything fall to your las and autocannon barrage. You haven't truly had fun in this game.

In general all the marine tanks would benefit a great deal from chapter tactics.They should instantly be granted the benefit.

Got to say that Dark Angel tanks with RR 1'S to hit naturally would be a tad nasty, imagine a assault cannon razor spam with RR to hit and -1 to be shotduentonthe dark shroud, it would also invalidate our captains as backfield RR buffs, not a bad thing per say.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Compared to a twinlas razorback - I would much prefer the vindi. The extra wound and survivability/flexability is just great. The predator seems to have it beat though - plus it's stratagem is MUCH better. If you've never had guilliman buffing 3 preds with kill shot stratagem and just watch everything fall to your las and autocannon barrage. You haven't truly had fun in this game.

In general all the marine tanks would benefit a great deal from chapter tactics.They should instantly be granted the benefit.

I would never run three vindis or three preds much less two. You are always the first to cry what garbage are SM strategems too.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Compared to a twinlas razorback - I would much prefer the vindi. The extra wound and survivability/flexability is just great. The predator seems to have it beat though - plus it's stratagem is MUCH better. If you've never had guilliman buffing 3 preds with kill shot stratagem and just watch everything fall to your las and autocannon barrage. You haven't truly had fun in this game.

In general all the marine tanks would benefit a great deal from chapter tactics.They should instantly be granted the benefit.

I really hope that Chapter/Legion tactics are extended to buff the whole army like every other faction. Ultramarine Land Raiders able to fall back and shoot. Raven Guard Predator Spearhead detachments with -1 to hit etc. Although White Scar and Black Templars would be abandoned in droves if that was the case though.

Would definitely buff up SM in general.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Compared to a twinlas razorback - I would much prefer the vindi. The extra wound and survivability/flexability is just great. The predator seems to have it beat though - plus it's stratagem is MUCH better. If you've never had guilliman buffing 3 preds with kill shot stratagem and just watch everything fall to your las and autocannon barrage. You haven't truly had fun in this game.

In general all the marine tanks would benefit a great deal from chapter tactics.They should instantly be granted the benefit.

I really hope that Chapter/Legion tactics are extended to buff the whole army like every other faction. Ultramarine Land Raiders able to fall back and shoot. Raven Guard Predator Spearhead detachments with -1 to hit etc. Although White Scar and Black Templars would be abandoned in droves if that was the case though.

Would definitely buff up SM in general.

I hope so too but given custodes don't apply theirs to land raiders and dreads "Cause reasons" I'm not holding my breath

We can only hope and dream... Ultramarines would basically have grav tanks.

 Primark G wrote:
We can only hope and dream... Ultramarines would basically have grav tanks.

Don’t forget we take a -1 to hit when falling back. It’s better then nothing, but not Fly.

Can't be done. Yes it's a cool model but it's utterly useless on the table top.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
We can only hope and dream... Ultramarines would basically have grav tanks.

Don’t forget we take a -1 to hit when falling back. It’s better then nothing, but not Fly.

It's certainly enough to make Ultramarines a viable choice. If it applied army wide, you wouldn't be able to lock any units down.

Once can dream.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
We can only hope and dream... Ultramarines would basically have grav tanks.

Don’t forget we take a -1 to hit when falling back. It’s better then nothing, but not Fly.

It's certainly enough to make Ultramarines a viable choice. If it applied army wide, you wouldn't be able to lock any units down.

Once can dream.

So it would make marines ..... tactically flexible GASP!

If the vindicator wasn't just heavy D3 I'd like it a looooooooooot more.

 AaronWilson wrote:
If the vindicator wasn't just heavy D3 I'd like it a looooooooooot more.

I think d6 might be a bit too strong for its points. They are already basically melta shots as it is, it'd be like asking for a d6 lascannon

 Primark G wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Compared to a twinlas razorback - I would much prefer the vindi. The extra wound and survivability/flexability is just great. The predator seems to have it beat though - plus it's stratagem is MUCH better. If you've never had guilliman buffing 3 preds with kill shot stratagem and just watch everything fall to your las and autocannon barrage. You haven't truly had fun in this game.

In general all the marine tanks would benefit a great deal from chapter tactics.They should instantly be granted the benefit.

I would never run three vindis or three preds much less two. You are always the first to cry what garbage are SM strategems too.

It's really the only stratagem worth using on the codex. It's requirements are just silly though. 3 preds being alive? You almost have to take 4 to ensure you ever get to use it.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Compared to a twinlas razorback - I would much prefer the vindi. The extra wound and survivability/flexability is just great. The predator seems to have it beat though - plus it's stratagem is MUCH better. If you've never had guilliman buffing 3 preds with kill shot stratagem and just watch everything fall to your las and autocannon barrage. You haven't truly had fun in this game.

In general all the marine tanks would benefit a great deal from chapter tactics.They should instantly be granted the benefit.

I would never run three vindis or three preds much less two. You are always the first to cry what garbage are SM strategems too.

It's really the only stratagem worth using on the codex. It's requirements are just silly though. 3 preds being alive? You almost have to take 4 to ensure you ever get to use it.

You know, one quick fix you could do is just put spikes on all your stuff and start playing Chaos Space Marines if you're gonna be a salt muffin about the SM Codex ;D

 AaronWilson wrote:
If the vindicator wasn't just heavy D3 I'd like it a looooooooooot more.

It'd be broken at D6 normal shots all the time, allowing (potentially) 36 wounds in a single shot against a vehicle at Strength 10, no thanks. For the points, I think the Vindicator is a fine assault gun...it's just that a 24" range gun makes it not very flexible.

Vindicators should be 3xD3. Period.

I think if you want to change the number of shots, the gun needs to decrease. I'd be fine if it was something crazy like Heavy 2D6...BUT...it'd have to then be Strength 5, -2, 1 damage etc.

Heck, having two ammunition rounds would be something that would make the Demolisher cannon more interesting. A bunker breaker round (as it is now), and a high explosive round, etc.

kombatwombat wrote:
I reckon it could easily become a very solid unit with the addition of an extra rule - that it can fire its Demolisher on the move without penalty (it’s a siege tank!) and the Leman Russ’ Grinding Advance rule (so fire twice if it moved half its M stat or less). It might need a modest price bump to say 135-140 points but it’d be worthwhile.

So a russ demolisher with 3+ for 140? The IG pay 215 for that type of 3+ fire power (with an extra heavy bolter) with the help of a tank commander. Sure they get an order and regiment bonus, but not sure that is worth 75 points.

Right now it is 125 vs 170, BS4+ if both moved and 1 shot vs 2 shots. That is a 45 point difference that in my own personal opinion is solid for what you get from both tanks.