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AaronWilson wrote: If the vindicator wasn't just heavy D3 I'd like it a looooooooooot more.
It'd be broken at D6 normal shots all the time, allowing (potentially) 36 wounds in a single shot against a vehicle at Strength 10, no thanks. For the points, I think the Vindicator is a fine assault gun...it's just that a 24" range gun makes it not very flexible.
A LR aleady does that...except its 2d3 which is much better than d6. Plus it has 3 additional guns more wounds and a army trait. It wouldn't be broken.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd just like to point out that a Eldar D cannon support weapon cost 75 points and it is the exact same weapon profile (it just doesn't get d6 shots vs units of 5 or more) it doesn't need LOS though (probably better than the d6 shot vs 5 units option). They are only T5 with 5 wounds and a 4+ save. BUT they do get an army trait (I play ulthwe with a 6+++). They are just tough enough to kill to require heavy weapons to bring them down effectively but their damage is off the chain for the points.
The Leman Russ Demolisher is complete gak though. The only worse Leman Russ is the Vanquisher. Yeah, it's better than the Vindicator, but that's a low bar to surpass.
It just occurred to me that it might be more worthwhile to drastically increase the shot count and decrease the damage. 2d6 Shots for 2 damage would be good, and make it distinct from being an inferior predator.
Why is the LR Demolisher bad? From what I have read they should be good AT-platform. But I have not have the opportunity to try them out untill today, as I will have my first game with two of them in my 2k list later.
They're not. Chose Manticore, Battle Tank, or Basilisk for your AT, they're far more reliable and cheaper. It's better to have D6 shots and D3 damage than D3 shots for D6 damage because it's more consistent and reliable, and you shouldn't really be paying 20 points more for roughly identical median performance with decreased reliability and versatility.
AaronWilson wrote: If the vindicator wasn't just heavy D3 I'd like it a looooooooooot more.
It'd be broken at D6 normal shots all the time, allowing (potentially) 36 wounds in a single shot against a vehicle at Strength 10, no thanks. For the points, I think the Vindicator is a fine assault gun...it's just that a 24" range gun makes it not very flexible.
A LR aleady does that...except its 2d3 which is much better than d6. Plus it has 3 additional guns more wounds and a army trait. It wouldn't be broken.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd just like to point out that a Eldar D cannon support weapon cost 75 points and it is the exact same weapon profile (it just doesn't get d6 shots vs units of 5 or more) it doesn't need LOS though (probably better than the d6 shot vs 5 units option). They are only T5 with 5 wounds and a 4+ save. BUT they do get an army trait (I play ulthwe with a 6+++). They are just tough enough to kill to require heavy weapons to bring them down effectively but their damage is off the chain for the points.
The Leman Russ Demolisher is complete gak though. The only worse Leman Russ is the Vanquisher. Yeah, it's better than the Vindicator, but that's a low bar to surpass.
It just occurred to me that it might be more worthwhile to drastically increase the shot count and decrease the damage. 2d6 Shots for 2 damage would be good, and make it distinct from being an inferior predator.
Compared to manticores and battle cannon russ I agree - the demolisher is quite bad for a meta choice. If 10 man terminator squads were actually a thing though - the demolisher would better at killing them.
I like your suggestion though - 2d6 shots with 2 damage a peice all the time would be a nice place for it. Also I see no reason why the vindi and the demolisher should have different rates of fire with the exact same weapon.
Even the Battle Cannon variant isn't that great, but it's a head above the Demolisher. Compared to the Demolisher, it has almost the same damage output [reduced against Land Raiders and other Leman Russes], but because it gets more shots, it's far more reliable and versatile. In addition, it's 18 points less, the cost of a hull lascannon, so for the same cost you've also still managed to keep half the Demolisher's performance. It also has real range, instead of piss-for-range, so it won't have to be moving around and can fire it's lascannon at full BS, whereas a LR Demolisher will be moving in most circumstances. Even against heavy infantry, a Battle Cannon still doubles-out Terminators for a 2+ and, because it has more shots with less concentrated damage, can kill more more reliably.
And the Battle Cannon tank is still rather underwhelming, and only really performs is casual environments. Basilisks and Manticores render it entirely obsolete in IG lists; and otherwise it's marginally worse than the Predator [which also isn't an example of an outstanding vehicle].
One thing worth mention is the fact that the Leman Russes got the "shoot twice" functionality added to their Grinding Advance because of how bad they and all their guns were, as quick patch to allow them to try to be a casual alternate to a Manticore or Basilisk and "fix the problem" without having to make widespread changes to already printed material and material yet to come [IE: the Space Marines]. So while GW did recognize that the weapons for the Russ-tanks are absolute trash, they only made a half-assed attempt to fix it for the Guard, essentially deciding that the Space Marines are about infantry, not armor, and therefore their tanks can be bad and it'll be fine.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/19 17:53:48
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
It's better to have D6 shots and D3 damage than D3 shots for D6 damage because of mathematics, and you shouldn't really be paying 20 points more for roughly identical performance.
It's better to have D6 shots and D3 damage than D3 shots for D6 damage because of mathematics, and you shouldn't really be paying 20 points more for roughly identical performance.
Now if you said statistically it's more stable, yea, I'd agree.
Okay, that's exactly what I meant, and you understood that just fine. I'll change it though. I can even make pretty graphs if you want.
Also, it's more versatile, since you can shoot heavy and medium infantry with it.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Okay, that's exactly what I meant, and you understood that just fine. I'll change it though. I can even make pretty graphs if you want.
Also, it's more versatile, since you can shoot heavy and medium infantry with it.
Sorry, wasn't trying to sounds crummy there.
A vindicator is equally good on infantry since it should get D6 mostly, but range and all those shenanigans play a role. A demolisher in an IG list? Lots of better stuff. In marines lists? Decent unless you're going soup anyway.
Just Tony wrote: This thread makes me realize how massive the power shift is between editions. From 3-5th, people were genuinely afraid of what a Vindicator would do. Had I actually gotten 5 like I wanted, it would have been glorious. Now, it's a subpar choice. So weird...
part of it is due to the changes in 8th, with everything having hit points and the lack of vehicle rules you want reliable large chunks of wounds, instead of a single big killing shot now you want multiple slightly less strong shots.
this was a trend introduced with hullpoints in 6th edition. I always though a hull point should have been removed with a penatrating hit only
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Just Tony wrote: This thread makes me realize how massive the power shift is between editions. From 3-5th, people were genuinely afraid of what a Vindicator would do. Had I actually gotten 5 like I wanted, it would have been glorious. Now, it's a subpar choice. So weird...
part of it is due to the changes in 8th, with everything having hit points and the lack of vehicle rules you want reliable large chunks of wounds, instead of a single big killing shot now you want multiple slightly less strong shots.
this was a trend introduced with hullpoints in 6th edition. I always though a hull point should have been removed with a penatrating hit only
I don't think hull points should ever have been a thing.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
And the problem with vehicles being "different" to normal things is all the sci-fi stuff that straddles the line. Just look at things that should be vehicles that were monsters (wraithknight, wraithlord, etc.)
There's not really any reason why a Tyrannofex should be dramatically more agile or nimble than a Leman Russ, while also being dramatically more durable, assuming equivalent tonnage.
Just Tony wrote: This thread makes me realize how massive the power shift is between editions. From 3-5th, people were genuinely afraid of what a Vindicator would do. Had I actually gotten 5 like I wanted, it would have been glorious. Now, it's a subpar choice. So weird...
part of it is due to the changes in 8th, with everything having hit points and the lack of vehicle rules you want reliable large chunks of wounds, instead of a single big killing shot now you want multiple slightly less strong shots.
this was a trend introduced with hullpoints in 6th edition. I always though a hull point should have been removed with a penatrating hit only
I don't think hull points should ever have been a thing.
I dsidn't mind it but the problem was too few hull points and too easy to get em. if vehicles had had twice as many hull points and you needed a penatrating shot to get them, it would have turned hull points into a way to ensure you'd eventually kill tanks, not a way to kill rhinos with heavy bolters
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Elbows wrote: We're now officially at four pages...and nothing has changed.
The Vindicator is still cool enough to run for 125 points if you like the model. It's not going to ruin your army. Ignore the rest of this thread.
A lot of this discussion really helps people figure out where a unit should be point wise. For example - at 100 points I think a lot of people would be sold on a vindicator - especially if it could gain the benefit of it's armies trait. GW is obviously trying to make the vindi work - they have dropped it's points twice now. It was 145 in the index I think. At 125 it's not going to lose you the game for including one but you really aren't trying to win if you take it. Different people just need different maters of convincing. Casuals, semi casuals, competitive, and GW(not sure how you convince them.)
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I definitely feel it should be up-gunned to be a threat rather than reduced in cost to become a throwaway unit. Space Marines work with the idea of having two 200pt scary units rather than five 80pt anaemic ones.
kombatwombat wrote: I definitely feel it should be up-gunned to be a threat rather than reduced in cost to become a throwaway unit. Space Marines work with the idea of having two 200pt scary units rather than five 80pt anaemic ones.
Then let it shot twice lol.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Elbows wrote: I think, like most threads on here, the naysayers are mathhammerites who probably haven't actually used the tank in a game. It's absolutely fine at its cost. Just don't expect the world. Ignore the naysayers.
^^ This.
I have used a Vindi. Against the right armies it does quite well. It’s never bad either.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
Which is exactly what I’m saying. Let it shoot its Demolisher Cannon twice if it moved up to half speed, and ignore the -1 to hit for moving and shooting the Cannon. Then increase its points a bit - say to 160-170 or so - and hey presto, one tank working as designed.
I’d also double the shot count of both Whirlwind Missile Launcher types and double the cost of those weapons. Suddenly they’re useful again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/20 03:49:13
kombatwombat wrote: I definitely feel it should be up-gunned to be a threat rather than reduced in cost to become a throwaway unit. Space Marines work with the idea of having two 200pt scary units rather than five 80pt anaemic ones.
Then let it shot twice lol.
It also needs to be distinct from the Predator. It's second problem is that's it's kind of a third a Predator, but swingy and two-thirds the price.
The Leman Russ Eradicator has no purpose because it's functionally identical to a Leman Russ Battle Tank, but with S6 with Ignores Cover instead of S8, and only 2 points less. There's no reason to ever have one.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
A lot of the problem with the Vindicator comes from the anemic translation of the Demolisher Cannon into 8th edition compared to other weapons, imo. The weapon system (demolisher cannon) is not very good. The Leman Russ Demolisher is solidly not great, the best variants of the Baneblade (i.e. the Shadowsword) avoids paying the 40-point demolisher cannon tax which automatically makes it cheaper without meaningfully harming its firepower...
... just fix the Demolisher Cannon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/20 13:28:16
I personally think the gun is fine, but it's role has changed tremendously (a bit like the Leman Russ' battle cannon). If it had a different name and was on something else, people would be fine with the gun itself. I don't think the statline does a good job of representing how the gun itself should function though.
Elbows wrote: I personally think the gun is fine, but it's role has changed tremendously (a bit like the Leman Russ' battle cannon). If it had a different name and was on something else, people would be fine with the gun itself. I don't think the statline does a good job of representing how the gun itself should function though.
I don't think it has a role, that's the problem.
40 points for an IG demolisher cannon is essentially the same as 2 lascannons. And whaddya know, it averages out to be the same as two lascannons, except:
1) It gets more shots against big units (maybe. It's unreliable, but all you need is a 3+ on a d6 for this to be true).
2) It wounds T9 on 3+ (so maybe 4 units in the game) and T5 on a 2+
3) It is incredibly unreliable compared to 2 lascannons (the probability curve is way different simply because of the d3 shots)
4) It is incredibly short-ranged.
There's a reason the Leman Russ Annihilator (with a twin lascannon turret) is considered to be a far, far better vehicle than the Leman Russ Demolisher (with the Demolisher cannon turret), despite everything except the main armament being equal.
So, twin lascannons are 50 points...if the demolisher cannon is 40 points, that seems fair to me. You seem to be under some impression that I care about bell-curves and mathhammer...I don't. I use a Vindicator and it's fun - it does stuff. I have access to plenty o' Predator variants...but sometimes I don't want to use a Predator. Big deal?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/20 14:04:41
For about 100 points I might consider it. The ratio of points to potential damage is too small. You pay a lot of those points just for the admittedly sturdy chassis. But that chassis is not earning its points back with its WS6+ attacks alone. Which is normal for most tanks. And the gun can't do it either.
Leman russ demolishers can be vostroian do make the demolisher useful in terms of range.
Elbows wrote: So, twin lascannons are 50 points...if the demolisher cannon is 40 points, that seems fair to me. You seem to be under some impression that I care about bell-curves and mathhammer...I don't. I use a Vindicator and it's fun - it does stuff. I have access to plenty o' Predator variants...but sometimes I don't want to use a Predator. Big deal?
Twin lascannons are 40 points for guard. (which is also the codex I got my Demolisher Cannon cost from).
And no, I don't mean to criticize. I have friends that use the Demolisher and I don't go "oh, it's awful, don't use that." In fact, I am happy for them because they like the units and enjoy them. But, fundamentally, if someone is trying to optimize their list for a tournament (or just because that's who they are) then the Demolisher Cannon is suboptimal for the points, and requires adjustment. And were that to happen, it wouldn't harm (I daresay, it would help!) the people who use them already for fun. So why not try to balance it if it's not a good gun?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/20 14:13:00
Elbows wrote: So, twin lascannons are 50 points...if the demolisher cannon is 40 points, that seems fair to me. You seem to be under some impression that I care about bell-curves and mathhammer...I don't. I use a Vindicator and it's fun - it does stuff. I have access to plenty o' Predator variants...but sometimes I don't want to use a Predator. Big deal?
Twin lascannons are 40 points for guard. (which is also the codex I got my Demolisher Cannon cost from).
And no, I don't mean to criticize. I have friends that use the Demolisher and I don't go "oh, it's awful, don't use that." In fact, I am happy for them because they like the units and enjoy them. But, fundamentally, if someone is trying to optimize their list for a tournament (or just because that's who they are) then the Demolisher Cannon is suboptimal for the points, and requires adjustment. And were that to happen, it wouldn't harm (I daresay, it would help!) the people who use them already for fun. So why not try to balance it if it's not a good gun?
40 points for two BS4 lascannons.
If we carry that logic the SM Demolisher should be 50 points, which makes the chassis 75 points. Or a practically Rhino, but T8.
Suboptimal mathematically does not always translate to the table.
Psychological factors play a big role. My opponents always seem to want to remove the Vindicator. Most people aren't taking power fists or other tank punching CC weapons so when I charge them they plink off the tank and i'm more than willing to charge multiple units with it.
Elbows wrote: So, twin lascannons are 50 points...if the demolisher cannon is 40 points, that seems fair to me. You seem to be under some impression that I care about bell-curves and mathhammer...I don't. I use a Vindicator and it's fun - it does stuff. I have access to plenty o' Predator variants...but sometimes I don't want to use a Predator. Big deal?
Twin lascannons are 40 points for guard. (which is also the codex I got my Demolisher Cannon cost from).
And no, I don't mean to criticize. I have friends that use the Demolisher and I don't go "oh, it's awful, don't use that." In fact, I am happy for them because they like the units and enjoy them. But, fundamentally, if someone is trying to optimize their list for a tournament (or just because that's who they are) then the Demolisher Cannon is suboptimal for the points, and requires adjustment. And were that to happen, it wouldn't harm (I daresay, it would help!) the people who use them already for fun. So why not try to balance it if it's not a good gun?
40 points for two BS4 lascannons.
If we carry that logic the SM Demolisher should be 50 points, which makes the chassis 75 points. Or a practically Rhino, but T8.
Suboptimal mathematically does not always translate to the table.
Psychological factors play a big role. My opponents always seem to want to remove the Vindicator. Most people aren't taking power fists or other tank punching CC weapons so when I charge them they plink off the tank and i'm more than willing to charge multiple units with it.
While what you say is true, especially about math not easily being translatable, there's not really a way the Vindicator is good. If you're assaulting with it, then you might as well have brought a real assault unit for 125 points, and if you're shooting with it, you might as well have brought something with two lascannons.
Opponent's psychology is a fickle thing - but good opponents will ignore it, because literally the only thing it does well is be tough, so shooting at it or trying to kill it is playing to its strengths. They simply won't. And when it charges them, they'll just screen it with bodies, like they would with a real assault unit, except that the vindicator is never going to kill the screen so it is even more "dealt with" than a real assault unit at the same price point would be.
While what you say is true, especially about math not easily being translatable, there's not really a way the Vindicator is good. If you're assaulting with it, then you might as well have brought a real assault unit for 125 points, and if you're shooting with it, you might as well have brought something with two lascannons.
I think that's a false dichotomy.
The vindicator has a good elite killing gun. I brought it to put big holes in things - not to be an assault unit. I *will* assault with it when an opportunity is open, because I naturally wind up being close and I can shutdown shooting at no real cost to me. If they run away then I get to shoot again. If they stay in then I still tie up models. If they block two units of IG with lascannons that's 120 points (or 140 if they go to 5 points), which is the cost of the vindicator plus any damage I did on the way in and two LC out of commission. If they have to blow an order or two on shooting after fall back that's fine, too.
While what you say is true, especially about math not easily being translatable, there's not really a way the Vindicator is good. If you're assaulting with it, then you might as well have brought a real assault unit for 125 points, and if you're shooting with it, you might as well have brought something with two lascannons.
I think that's a false dichotomy.
The vindicator has a good elite killing gun. I brought it to put big holes in things - not to be an assault unit. I *will* assault with it when an opportunity is open, because I naturally wind up being close and I can shutdown shooting at no real cost to me. If they run away then I get to shoot again. If they stay in then I still tie up models. If they block two units of IG with lascannons that's 120 points (or 140 if they go to 5 points), which is the cost of the vindicator plus any damage I did on the way in and two LC out of commission. If they have to blow an order or two on shooting after fall back that's fine, too.
So if you wanted to put big holes in things, lascannons are better, and if you wanted to assault, literally anything is better.
If you want to do both, then I'd argue it's best not to try to do both at once, and instead specialize, because 1 generalist will accomplish less than two specialists while paying not much less. Just as an example, 2 Chaos Spawn are 66 points and would do the same thing to those two Guard Squads, but cause significantly more casualties (eventually even fighting their way out of combat) and attracting significantly more firepower, while the 2 lascannon Chaos Space Marines cost a whopping 76 points, meaning the 120 points you spent could instead become less than 20% more expensive, and suddenly you're dramatically better at literally everything.
If you charged 2 of my guard squads, I'd leave 1 in to lock you up, fall one back and shoot (with one order) at something important, and I'd happily leave that 60 point lascannon squad in combat with your vindicator all game, if it keeps that 125 point demolisher cannon away from my Baneblades. If you fall back, then you'll get blatted in the face by selfsame lascannon, if I could be bothered, though honestly there's probably more threatening things on the board than a Vindicator that is willing to charge me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/20 15:52:28
So if you wanted to put big holes in things, lascannons are better, and if you wanted to assault, literally anything is better.
If you want to do both, then I'd argue it's best not to try to do both at once, and instead specialize, because 1 generalist will accomplish less than two specialists while paying not much less. Just as an example, 2 Chaos Spawn are 66 points and would do the same thing to those two Guard Squads, but causing significantly more casualties and attracting significantly more firepower, while the 2 lascannon Chaos Space Marines cost a whopping 76 points, meaning the 120 points you spent could instead become less than 20% more expensive, and suddenly you're dramatically better at literally everything.
If I wanted LC i'd be on a T7 platform. Instead I get slightly fewer shots for T8 and target flexibility. If I wanted an assault unit I wouldn't have any tank punching power like this does. Again the purpose is not to kill in assault like an assault unit, but to cause problems where the opportunity arises.
Specialists > Generalists....generally, but this thing isn't really a generalist.
So if you wanted to put big holes in things, lascannons are better, and if you wanted to assault, literally anything is better.
If you want to do both, then I'd argue it's best not to try to do both at once, and instead specialize, because 1 generalist will accomplish less than two specialists while paying not much less. Just as an example, 2 Chaos Spawn are 66 points and would do the same thing to those two Guard Squads, but causing significantly more casualties and attracting significantly more firepower, while the 2 lascannon Chaos Space Marines cost a whopping 76 points, meaning the 120 points you spent could instead become less than 20% more expensive, and suddenly you're dramatically better at literally everything.
If I wanted LC i'd be on a T7 platform. Instead I get slightly fewer shots for T8 and target flexibility. If I wanted an assault unit I wouldn't have any tank punching power like this does. Again the purpose is not to kill in assault like an assault unit, but to cause problems where the opportunity arises.
Specialists > Generalists....generally, but this thing isn't really a generalist.
Right. It's a nothing-ist. T8 is only valuable if the enemy shoots at you, so it's fully dependent on the skill and actions of your opponent, and therefore is a stat you could very real see zero benefit out of. If you want to just "cause problems where the opportunity arises" the Chaos Spawn unit is actually pretty terrifying in 8th as a distraction carnifex type unit.
The vindicator isn't atrocious, but it doesn't have a role to play that isn't eclipsed by another unit.
So if you wanted to put big holes in things, lascannons are better, and if you wanted to assault, literally anything is better.
If you want to do both, then I'd argue it's best not to try to do both at once, and instead specialize, because 1 generalist will accomplish less than two specialists while paying not much less. Just as an example, 2 Chaos Spawn are 66 points and would do the same thing to those two Guard Squads, but causing significantly more casualties and attracting significantly more firepower, while the 2 lascannon Chaos Space Marines cost a whopping 76 points, meaning the 120 points you spent could instead become less than 20% more expensive, and suddenly you're dramatically better at literally everything.
If I wanted LC i'd be on a T7 platform. Instead I get slightly fewer shots for T8 and target flexibility. If I wanted an assault unit I wouldn't have any tank punching power like this does. Again the purpose is not to kill in assault like an assault unit, but to cause problems where the opportunity arises.
Specialists > Generalists....generally, but this thing isn't really a generalist.
Right. It's a nothing-ist. T8 is only valuable if the enemy shoots at you, so it's fully dependent on the skill and actions of your opponent, and therefore is a stat you could very real see zero benefit out of. If you want to just "cause problems where the opportunity arises" the Chaos Spawn unit is actually pretty terrifying in 8th as a distraction carnifex type unit.
The vindicator isn't atrocious, but it doesn't have a role to play that isn't eclipsed by another unit.
The spawn in no way eclipses the vindicator at what it's good at - they're a different unit with a different purpose. 3.8 spawn per vindicator is 15 T5 wounds with a 5+...and absolutely no gun. Coincidentally spawn are probably the best thing for a vindicator to shoot. What is even the point of these absurd statements? If I take an army of all vindicators is the enemy not going to shoot at me at all? I mean it's so crappy people just never shoot it!
