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 Dynas wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
sautekh
2 crypteks,
3x5 immortals,
3 DDA,
2 vaults
and ZERO destroyers

So only 3 out of the 4 best units we have. Cool stuff.

Did he fight AM with a shadowsword? 1 turn from that bad boy will Pop a Vault, or get very close and let another tank finish it off. Its Hitting on 3's, with order possibly rerolling 1's, also take reroll varaible shots (d6) AND wounding on 2's rerolling those as well.

To be fair, not every IG army runs a Shadowsword, so a niche example might not be the best test case. Most probably would prefer to spam Leman Russes.
Or did I misunderstand what you meant, and you were asking to confirm that he actually DID fight one?

Sam Henley's matches:
30:22 vs cadians(filler+2 basilisks, 2 wyvers, 1 Hydra)+bloodangels(scouts+mephiston+captain)+celestine
31:6 vs cadians(filler+3scouts) +custodes(3 captains)bloodangels(scouts+3captains+death company)
26:19 vs custodes(2 captains, 3x3 custodian guard, 4 wardens, 5 bikes)+knight styrix
29:22 vs T'au(bork'an with the usual: commanders, riptides, stealh suits, strike teams, drones, etc)
32:29 vs Trent Northington's Thousand Sons(3 Dps, magnus, 4x10 cultists, 60 tzangors, 3 shawmans, ahriman)
27:33 vs Richard Windau's T'au(same thing except 3 rip tides which probably killed the vaults)

 iGuy91 wrote:

 Dynas wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
sautekh
2 crypteks,
3x5 immortals,
3 DDA,
2 vaults
and ZERO destroyers

So only 3 out of the 4 best units we have. Cool stuff.

Did he fight AM with a shadowsword? 1 turn from that bad boy will Pop a Vault, or get very close and let another tank finish it off. Its Hitting on 3's, with order possibly rerolling 1's, also take reroll varaible shots (d6) AND wounding on 2's rerolling those as well.

To be fair, not every IG army runs a Shadowsword, so a niche example might not be the best test case. Most probably would prefer to spam Leman Russes.
Or did I misunderstand what you meant, and you were asking to confirm that he actually DID fight one?

Yeah I was asking if he fought one?
I would say in ITC Grand GT format at least half of AM list have a shadowsword. Take out Fliers, Knights, Tanks/Razorbacks, Morty, T Vaults, Swarmlord/Flyrants/ etc....

Here is my major problem for next weeks game custodes
Needing major help on what tactics and what must brings to the list it will be between 1850-2500 for dealing with them and he will also have def a marine chapter Space Wolves Raven Guard or imperial fist and potentially some Ad Mec

It will be 3x custodes bikers with shields. Use mortal wounds or destroyers.

 Dynas wrote:
It will be 3x custodes bikers with shields. Use mortal wounds or destroyers.

Nice cheers and in Melee wraiths was thinking of potentially running two CTan one def being the trans to get off 2 powers for sure behind wraiths
I could support with destroyers as well not sure putting so much into them might be waste I feel you just can’t ignore them Yeah he has played that he also has played the supreme command detachment to make them all characters
In any of these scenarios does he still get the 3+ invulnerable across all of them ???

That's the problem with 40 I've noticed. People go to these tactics threads and expect their anecdotal FLGS battle reports/eperience to be taken as the "be all end all of the meta". I almost completelly ignore my personal experience. It's meaningless in the grand scheme of things. GT and Major results are what matter. And if you don't think so - why are you here arguing with people who do. You're clearly not playing competitive games/are not informed enough about the meta/tournament results to do so. Anyway...

Again, because they disagree with you they clearly have no idea what they are talking about. That's adorable.

I don't play high comp anymore, although a significant portion of my games are against those that do. I did most of my high comp playing in 3rd, 4th and 5th. You simply have no appropriate frame of reference to make such absurd accusations.

Thinking none of the dynasties are duds, shows that you are not thinking competitively.

Vapid nonsense.

Anything "pretty good" is "Trash" when it comes to competitive.

Also nonsense. I remember Tony taking NOVA back in 13 or 14 with what appeared to be a pretty generic Necron list at the time. You can absolutely win high comp without having to find the most exploitative use of the rules as possible and spamming 20 of them. This game has hundreds of die rolls and player skill that vastly transcend list building in its overall impact on the outcome. Also, the true difference, particularly now days, between most under or overcosted units is maybe a few percentage points. If the only way you know how to win is exploiting those few percentage points then you have a lot to learn about the game.

Basically if you pick Gauss without mephrit - you're just silly. If you use Gauss outside RF range - you should use tesla. So there are 2 cams: tesla + non-mephrit and gauss + mephrit. And yes, right now there's only one realiable way to actually use gauss+mephrit - veil (even so, the enemy can scout you out of range, but let's ignore that). You can also Deceive in, but that relies on you going first. Monoliths and Night Scythes are just *fart sound*, sorry. They're for Open play/Narrative play.

Lol, so says you. Codex has been out for a month but you clearly have it all figured out.

The way I read it, Nihilakh units should always get to reroll 1's in Overwatch (discounting DM's Interception). Am I wrong?

If they disagree with me and quote me some tournament results/pro's opinion or at least give a valid explanation - I'll listen to them. Otherwise it's a waste of my time. I've played a bunch of mutliplayer games online, board games IRL, etc and I've always thought I was just "ok-good-ish". And when I look at the stats, I'm almost always top 5% of the player base or better. Wow. That's because there are a LOT of stupid people out there and people who do not care about winning/playing competitively. Which is why I do not take most opinions into account. You have to either substantiate it with previously mentioned things.

"Vapid nonsense" /clap What a great response. I've proved my point. You really only see Alpha Legion and Black Legion; Cadians; Ultramarines and Raven Guard; Mars and Stygies, etc making top tables with an exception every few tournaments. Which means the others just straight up suck.


"You can absolutely win high comp without having to find the most exploitative use of the rules as possible"

You say "Abuse", I say "having the ability to differentiate good units from bad units (because why would you use bad units if you intend to win)". This all comes from this weird (and frankly stupid) thought of "GW can do no wrong. Everything is viable" when the answer to that is clearly no. GW are as stupid as all get out when it comes to writting rules and balancing. Some stuff is clearly straight up worse and some stuff is clearly better.

And I clearly haven't figured it all out. I'm just frustrated with people doing something I'm really sure is bad, getting bad results for necrons, and still doing it expecting something different. Necrons are a shooting glass cannon army. Durability wise they are TERRIBLE for their points. They cannot stand within 12'' and win the trade +1AP or not UNLESS they can put almost ALL their units within 12'' for a huge alpha strike. At the moment that is not really possible to pull off reliably (and it can easily be canceled with scouts and screens and line of sight AND deepstrike. That's a lot of ways).

v0iddrgn wrote:
The way I read it, Nihilakh units should always get to reroll 1's in Overwatch (discounting DM's Interception). Am I wrong?

Its pretty much Textbook the same as the Dark Angels Chapter Tactic, and I do not believe that works that way. You have to stay still in your most recent movement phase.

"Vapid nonsense" /clap What a great response. I've proved my point. You really only see Alpha Legion and Black Legion; Cadians; Ultramarines and Raven Guard; Mars and Stygies, etc making top tables with an exception every few tournaments. Which means the others just straight up suck.

What percentage of the overall field were those lists to begin with?

This has been an issue with the high comp player bases perception for decades now. It's a continuous loop of "this worked right when the codex came out, so lets all bring this, and, lo and behold, that keeps working because noone else is even trying anything else." And there is good reason for this. Putting together an 1850 to 2000 point list is time consuming and expensive, further complicated by how much time is invested in getting good with it. After all those sunk costs people tend to be reluctant to try something else out.

However, the inevitable result is you very rarely see this particular player base even try something different. Reecius does. Hulk and Dash made names for themselves back in 5th traveling the country with lists and units most thought were undepowered and crushing people with them. Hell, Dash was winning 5th edition tournaments with the 3rd edition Cron Dex. If you think their is power discrepancy now days you haven't seen gak like it use to be. That thing was outdated and bad.

Also, this player base by no means represents some lofty experts opinion of the efficacy of units at large. Something like 1% of the total player base plays high comp, and it's not like it's "only the best" who do. Now, many of these players are exceptional, no question, but in general it has more to do with people who have a ton of money and free time to pour into this endeavor then anything else.

Anyway, we are straying way off tangent so if you would like to continue this discussion via PMs feel free to do so. I'm always up for a good internet debate. I just ask you keep that in mind when responding to people. It's perfectly ok to want to take units that[b] you[/b] find under valued and make the best of them. You can either choose to offer your 2 cents on the best way to use them, or omit yourself from the conversation. But don't be that guy.

 iGuy91 wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:
The way I read it, Nihilakh units should always get to reroll 1's in Overwatch (discounting DM's Interception). Am I wrong?

Its pretty much Textbook the same as the Dark Angels Chapter Tactic, and I do not believe that works that way. You have to stay still in your most recent movement phase.

It reads, "... THE preceding Movement phase", that means your opponent's Movement phase when it comes to OW.

v0iddrgn wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:
The way I read it, Nihilakh units should always get to reroll 1's in Overwatch (discounting DM's Interception). Am I wrong?

Its pretty much Textbook the same as the Dark Angels Chapter Tactic, and I do not believe that works that way. You have to stay still in your most recent movement phase.

It reads, "... THE preceding Movement phase."

You know what I DO find interesting though, is using the Nihilak Strategem on a Phalanx of infantry under a chronometron. Turning your warriors into 3+ / 4++ for a turn makes them pretty stupidly survivable. Just thought about that.

 iGuy91 wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:
The way I read it, Nihilakh units should always get to reroll 1's in Overwatch (discounting DM's Interception). Am I wrong?

Its pretty much Textbook the same as the Dark Angels Chapter Tactic, and I do not believe that works that way. You have to stay still in your most recent movement phase.

It reads, "... THE preceding Movement phase."

You know what I DO find interesting though, is using the Nihilak Strategem on a Phalanx of infantry under a chronometron. Turning your warriors into 3+ / 4++ for a turn makes them pretty stupidly survivable. Just thought about that.

Yeah definitely, I tried the argument that the stratagem being played end of turn meant it wasn't played in a phase, thus you could give it to two units (if applicable), but it definitely needs a FAQ (it's played end of turn, so perhaps not in a phase)

torblind wrote:

Yeah definitely, I tried the argument that the stratagem being played end of turn meant it wasn't played in a phase, thus you could give it to two units (if applicable), but it definitely needs a FAQ (it's played end of turn, so perhaps not in a phase)

At the end of your turn is definitely not in a phase, which means you can play this strat as many times as you want, even on one unit.

 p5freak wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

Mephrit is great for Warriors. The reason people are down on Mephrit is that it isn't a good fit for a lot of other units. If you are running 20 man warrior blobs then you really should be Mephrit, if you have 3x 10 Tesla Immortals it's probably not the best choice.

Yes, its great to have your 20 warriors within 12" of the enemy, he can easily charge them, disabling their shooting, warriors are great in melee with 1 attack at S4 AP0 D1. Your strat is only good for shooting at one enemy unit, mephrit is useless, except for the warlord trait, which is great on the CCB with tesla.

Luckily you don't just play the game with one unit in isolation, but as a larger strategy Counter charge units are nearby. You want them to be charged and are placed in such a way that your opponent has too many threats to deal with. If you charges warriors, Deciver HI, and/or wraiths counter charge next turn. Opponent has to clear 20+ warriors with 3+ and 5++ from Cryptec, if they don't RP and the unit can become a tarpit.

Opinions on Heavy Destroyers as an Upgrade? Should I not bother and save the 7 points? Assume I am using the re-roll stratagem every turn

Heavy Destroyers are just worse against any target if you use the re-roll stratagem every turn. So Only if you have multiple units of destroyers and you're expecting to face a lot of tough targets/don't have enough anti-tank targets. Which at the end of the day means you never use them because you should be taking a TAC list.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Opinions on Heavy Destroyers as an Upgrade? Should I not bother and save the 7 points? Assume I am using the re-roll stratagem every turn

If you deepstrike your destroyers and use stratagem on them - regular destroyer is better.

H.destroyers are usefull:
- when i tested 3 max units of destroyers they helped to apply buffs to the units cause of their better range;
- single h. destroyer can take a slot in a heavy support detachment
- 3 heavy destroyers can do damage under stratagem. Although you usually more want DDA for this role, and stratagem is used on regular destroyers.

"- single h. destroyer can take a slot in a heavy support detachment "
this is probably their best thing. I think I'll do that to fill the last space in my sautekh spearhead since I don't really want a 3rd DDA.

-Sentinel- wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Opinions on Heavy Destroyers as an Upgrade? Should I not bother and save the 7 points? Assume I am using the re-roll stratagem every turn

If you deepstrike your destroyers and use stratagem on them - regular destroyer is better.

H.destroyers are usefull:
- when i tested 3 max units of destroyers they helped to apply buffs to the units cause of their better range;
- single h. destroyer can take a slot in a heavy support detachment
- 3 heavy destroyers can do damage under stratagem. Although you usually more want DDA for this role, and stratagem is used on regular destroyers.

h. destroyers are better, point for point, when the strength improvement comes into play, ie from T6 and above they start getting better. But you can only take them in units of 3, so 4+ regular destroyers are better if you have the points.

If you are up against T7 and up, then you could put a HD into your squad of regular destroyers to help shift things. Personally I think the versatility of Destroyers, with their 3 shots and near HD performance against higher toughnesses means they are superior.

You could even make a case for firing them at guardsmen, that in cover and ducking under the table have a 3+ save. a single HD shot against that stilsl feels ridiculous.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
"- single h. destroyer can take a slot in a heavy support detachment "
this is probably their best thing. I think I'll do that to fill the last space in my sautekh spearhead since I don't really want a 3rd DDA.

It could work as a nice "marker light" to trigger Methodical Destruction for the DDAs too.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
"- single h. destroyer can take a slot in a heavy support detachment "
this is probably their best thing. I think I'll do that to fill the last space in my sautekh spearhead since I don't really want a 3rd DDA.

It could work as a nice "marker light" to trigger Methodical Destruction for the DDAs too.

Eh... one shot is very unreliable but when it happens and you're facing a superheavy - sure.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:



Eh... one shot is very unreliable but when it happens and you're facing a superheavy - sure.

Well yeah. I'm not suggesting it's a great strategy, it wouldn't even always be worth the 2 CP, but it's something if you're going with a single HD. A pair of DDAs only just kill a Rhino by themselves so you don't even need to be facing a superheavy to consider it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
OK so now I'm reevaluating which heavy support choice to add to my 2x DDA to make a Sautekh Spearhead. I imagine that question is quite relavent to all the other poor people with only 2 DDAs.

Currently I've been going with an Anni Barge, but a single Heavy Destroyer is interesting. I think Tomb Spiders are crap, and not worth considering.

My Nephrek Battalion is:




The Sautekh Spearhead will either be:



or:



So it's basically an Anni Barge vs. 3x Tomb Blades and a Heavy Destroyer. Thoughts?

torblind wrote:

-Sentinel- wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Opinions on Heavy Destroyers as an Upgrade? Should I not bother and save the 7 points? Assume I am using the re-roll stratagem every turn

If you deepstrike your destroyers and use stratagem on them - regular destroyer is better.

H.destroyers are usefull:
- when i tested 3 max units of destroyers they helped to apply buffs to the units cause of their better range;
- single h. destroyer can take a slot in a heavy support detachment
- 3 heavy destroyers can do damage under stratagem. Although you usually more want DDA for this role, and stratagem is used on regular destroyers.

h. destroyers are better, point for point, when the strength improvement comes into play, ie from T6 and above they start getting better. But you can only take them in units of 3, so 4+ regular destroyers are better if you have the points.

If you are up against T7 and up, then you could put a HD into your squad of regular destroyers to help shift things. Personally I think the versatility of Destroyers, with their 3 shots and near HD performance against higher toughnesses means they are superior.

You could even make a case for firing them at guardsmen, that in cover and ducking under the table have a 3+ save. a single HD shot against that stilsl feels ridiculous.

Under extermination protocol regular destroyers are way better than heavy against most targets. Even if you pick worst target for regular destroyers, say rhino:

3 regular destroyers under protocol do 7.4 damage to rhino, 20.3 points per damage
3 heavy destroyers under protocol do 8.3 damage to rhino, 20.6 points per damage

Still i would pick regular destroyers cause of squad size - they just use that CP for stratagem way better. Against any other target (maybe except wave serpent cause of -1 damage field, not sure) regular destroyers perform much better.

If you not gonna use stratagem on a squad - pick DDA. Its much more durable than 3 h.destroyers and its gauss flayers into rapid fire range are nuts.

@ Moosatronic Warrior

Basically my list <3
The choice is obvious for me - H Destroyer. Barge is just a 24'' shooting unit in an army full of those that do it better. H destroyer is: more efficient, cheaper and has 36'' range.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
@ Moosatronic Warrior

Basically my list <3
The choice is obvious for me - H Destroyer. Barge is just a 24'' shooting unit in an army full of those that do it better. H destroyer is: more efficient, cheaper and has 36'' range.

That is what I am thinking. Plus the Heavy Destroyer gives my Sautekh Overlord a target for his MWBD!

It's still a close run thing though, the difference between a Gauss Cannon + 8 S7 Tesla shots vs a Heavy GC and 12 S5 Tesla shots (for ease of comparison).

The Anni Barge adds another QS vehicle to maybe draw fire from DDAs vs the HD + TBs being 2 separate fast units for objective grabbing.

Ultimately I wouldn't want a lone HD or an Anni Barge in an ideal list, so the cheaper tax is probably best.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
The Anni Barge adds another QS vehicle to maybe draw fire from DDAs

You know what? That's actually not a horrible idea.
Push forward with it aggressively so they'll be more likely to shoot at it rather than the actual threat in your back field. Get some "Uhoh, here comes my lightning boat, gonna fry all your guys!" mind games going with your opponent.
(also, the Annihilation Barge has an underslung gun, so it's really 8 S7+3 S6 vs 12 S5 in your TB comparisons)

The extra 12 inches of range for the HDs doesn't get mentioned enough, I believe. Although it's harder to factor it into math hammer, over the long run it equals to less return fire and less risk of getting assaulted, etc.

That being said, if you got 300 points, an FA slot available, and plenty of CP to dedicate to EP, 6 Destroyers is a great deal. The efficacy of the HDs come in either after you already have that first unit of Ds, or, as mentioned above, as the cheapest way to fill out HS slots. That's probably the primary reason I bring them in my Novohk Brigade, although I have on occasion used spiders in their place with mixed results.

 skoffs wrote:

You know what? That's actually not a horrible idea.
Push forward with it aggressively so they'll be more likely to shoot at it rather than the actual threat in your back field. Get some "Uhoh, here comes my lightning boat, gonna fry all your guys!" mind games going with your opponent.
(also, the Annihilation Barge has an underslung gun, so it's really 8 S7+3 S6 vs 12 S5 in your TB comparisons)

I included an underslung Gauss Cannon in my comparison, it's far better than a Tesla Cannon.

An AB really shouldn't Draw fire from DDAs but they often do. People like to finish Necron stuff in one turn, and when the AB is the only QS in range of multiple units it's drawn all the fire from my opponents. sometimes. I'm still leaning towards the HD though.