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Yeah I ended up killing him from the tesseract vault. He brought down to 4 wounds from everything going at him (to be fair I was pretty stupid trying to take him on in cc) and then the swarmlord rolled 12 on smite and did 2 wounds to himself and 2 to my destroyer Lord, which the vault finished with cosmic fire. And the deceiver got hit first in cc before he got a change to hit back, it was what it was.

I like your list a lot. I just need to drop it down to 1500 for our local tournament rules.

This is what I am thinking.



My issue is it's very low on command points, only 3 after using one for 2 artifacts for the hq's. That leaves very little room for stratagems but the force itself is incredibly fast and can output a lot of damage quickly. I could drop the dda for some immortals but I won't have any real way to get them around the board so I don't want to go that route.

 Klowny wrote:
So I attended a tournament yesterday

Awesome writeup! Got a couple of questions;

-How did the Nightbringer do in your list? What was his role in your army?

-You mentioned the Chrono-tek helping the survivability of the Destroyers. How was he able to keep up?

-Why squads of 5-man for your Destoyers?

-

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
The vault has both CTAN SHARDS and DYNASTY. This means you dont get the dynasty benefits, but you can use their stratagems. Want to make your vault (almost) unkillable ? Make it nihilakh, place it within 3" of an objective marker, or dont move it, and play the nihilakh strat where you get +1 to sv rolls. And because the strat is used outside of a phase, at the end of your turn, you can play it as many times as you want. Play it twice and your vault gets a 2++ invuln sv. That will cost you 4 CP, though.

Inevitableq wrote:

Fantastic!!! So how does that 2++ work where in the rules so I can show my opponents

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Avoid Kutlakh? You're not serious are you?

I have not looked at him is he good what the benefits and how best to run him?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
The vault has both CTAN SHARDS and DYNASTY. This means you dont get the dynasty benefits, but you can use their stratagems. Want to make your vault (almost) unkillable ? Make it nihilakh, place it within 3" of an objective marker, or dont move it, and play the nihilakh strat where you get +1 to sv rolls. And because the strat is used outside of a phase, at the end of your turn, you can play it as many times as you want. Play it twice and your vault gets a 2++ invuln sv. That will cost you 4 CP, though.

Inevitableq wrote:

Fantastic!!! So how does that 2++ work where in the rules so I can show my opponents

What do you mean ? I explained everything in my post. You can only use a stratagem once inside a phase, BRB pg .215. Outside of a phase you can use the same stratagem as many times as you want. There is a discussion going on when outside of a phase actually is, because its undefined by the rules. There are two examples on pg. 215. Judging from that its clear to me that at the end of your turn is outside of a phase. At the end of your turn you play the nihilakh strat twice giving you +2 to your sv rolls. Your 4+ invuln sv turns into a 2+ invuln sv. If you get plus to your saving throws it applies to all your saves, including invuln sv. Thats written in the FAQs, dont remember where exactly.

Doctoralex wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
So I attended a tournament yesterday

Awesome writeup! Got a couple of questions;

-How did the Nightbringer do in your list? What was his role in your army?

-You mentioned the Chrono-tek helping the survivability of the Destroyers. How was he able to keep up?

-Why squads of 5-man for your Destoyers?

-

Thanks man, im glad to answer your questions.

- I feel the mortal wound generation capabilities of C'tan shards are too good to pass up, and i try to include at least one in every list that I have. I usually default to the Nightbringer now, I have run combinations of all three now and pound for pound he just outperforms the others so much. 80% of the time i run the smite and pulse on him, as he wants to be close, so smite until you get there then just pulse mortal wounds. His role is pretty simple. Run up the board with the wraiths and put as much pressure on their front lines as possible. He is an absolute monster in CC, any non vehicle unit melts when he starts to look at them from shooting and he pumps out mortal wounds. Combined with entropic strike and he makes short work of archons 2++ just as well as flyrants. T7 and 8w with fly means he can just fly about, shooting, MW'ing and fighting whatever he needs to. Combined with the wraiths they soak up ALOT of firepower, the smart play is to focus down the destroyers but its hard to do this when you have a bunch of angry murder toasters protecting a cosmic murder machine bearing down on you.

- So this I haven't figured out completely yet, I was very lucky in my games this weekend. First game v nids they came to me, I didnt have to move much. Second and third games were variations of DoW, so range was never an issue. I have a couple of ideas how to get around it in future, there is a VoD in the list, which I could use to reposition, or I was thinking a HD in each squad to daisy chain back as he has longer range anyway. He needs to be 3" away, on average advance rolls he usually gets to where he needs to be, that and 24" range guns means the destroyers never usually need to go past half field, not a huge issue. The one game I lost him early I just flew my Cape-tek back to cover the destroyers, meant they died a bit quicker but I was making no 5++'s that game anyway so the chronometron didnt help at all lol.

- I build the list as you see (mostly), but only had 1 squad of destroyers and a DDA and TA. Then I dropped the DDA for 4 more destroyers, then realised that a TA is another squad of 5. A bit more jiggling around and I realised I could fit 15 in the list, and I would rather have 3x5 man squads than 1x5, 1x4 and 1x6 man units, as it gives pretty easy target priority to someone who knows how to negate RP by focusing a squad at a time down. The way I see it, once MD is up, you dont lose much at all from not having the extra in the unit with full rerolls.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
Yeah I ended up killing him from the tesseract vault. He brought down to 4 wounds from everything going at him (to be fair I was pretty stupid trying to take him on in cc) and then the swarmlord rolled 12 on smite and did 2 wounds to himself and 2 to my destroyer Lord, which the vault finished with cosmic fire. And the deceiver got hit first in cc before he got a change to hit back, it was what it was.

I like your list a lot. I just need to drop it down to 1500 for our local tournament rules.

This is what I am thinking.

Spoiler:

Catacomb Command Barge w/ warscythe
Destroyer Lord w / warscythe

Deceiver

Wraiths ( 5 of them )
Destroyer squad ( 5 in the squad )
Destroyer squad ( 5 in the squad )

Doomsday Ark

My issue is it's very low on command points, only 3 after using one for 2 artifacts for the hq's. That leaves very little room for stratagems but the force itself is incredibly fast and can output a lot of damage quickly. I could drop the dda for some immortals but I won't have any real way to get them around the board so I don't want to go that route.

I would personally drop the DDA for 4 more Destroyers if you have the models. Is the deciever meant to redeploy the destroyers? Your really need a cryptek with them to keep them alive, and id rock a Res orb on the D/lord if you could. You could chuck a VoD on a cryptek, blink him up the board with some destroyers, while the others get brought up with the Deciever if you wanted mobility?

Destroyers need cp. If you are running sautekh i would suggest a battalion minimum, and the sautekh warlord trait to farm them back. realistically in sautekh you are spending 3cp per turn on the destroyers. They are hungry for CP but it is extremely worth it. Immortals can camp objectives, score you points, which is crucial in most missions.

Doctoralex wrote:
Ugh.... guys, I'm at a loss here.

Last three games in a row (at my LFGS or on Tabletop Simulator) I got absolutely destroyed ;(

Someone please just... toss me an army list that works.....

Why don't you post your list and what you faced and tell us a little about each game and we can see things where you might change your strategies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Curious79 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Avoid Kutlakh? You're not serious are you?

I have not looked at him is he good what the benefits and how best to run him?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
The vault has both CTAN SHARDS and DYNASTY. This means you dont get the dynasty benefits, but you can use their stratagems. Want to make your vault (almost) unkillable ? Make it nihilakh, place it within 3" of an objective marker, or dont move it, and play the nihilakh strat where you get +1 to sv rolls. And because the strat is used outside of a phase, at the end of your turn, you can play it as many times as you want. Play it twice and your vault gets a 2++ invuln sv. That will cost you 4 CP, though.

Inevitableq wrote:

Fantastic!!! So how does that 2++ work where in the rules so I can show my opponents

What do you mean ? I explained everything in my post. You can only use a stratagem once inside a phase, BRB pg .215. Outside of a phase you can use the same stratagem as many times as you want. There is a discussion going on when outside of a phase actually is, because its undefined by the rules. There are two examples on pg. 215. Judging from that its clear to me that at the end of your turn is outside of a phase. At the end of your turn you play the nihilakh strat twice giving you +2 to your sv rolls. Your 4+ invuln sv turns into a 2+ invuln sv. If you get plus to your saving throws it applies to all your saves, including invuln sv. Thats written in the FAQs, dont remember where exactly.

Perfect brilliant page numbers and everything thanks a lot !!!!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Avoid Kutlakh? You're not serious are you?

Dead serious. As dead as Kutlakh was at the end of every game I've seen him in. As serious as robot skellies get. Tell us about your experiences if you feel he's good. I'm posting all my experiences in the hope other people will join so I can gather more data. As far as data goes I've got 2 losses with Kutlakh and one win AGAINST Kutlakh. So far no indication of Kutlakh armies being good even if Kutlakh looks ok on paper. Instead of using Kutlakh Nephrekh Lychguard you can just DS, the access to the Novokh Strat is a big enough issue that I don't think Kulakh makes them much better either. If we assume Lychguard + Overlord combo is good, then I still think Kutlakh needs a 20 pt drop like the OLord did, but if we take the fact that Kutlakh needs to make a sup-par unit worth it, he needs a 60-80 pt drop IMHO. Playing him without Lychguard seems silly so I haven't tried it.

I played another game with my Novokh Warrior-spam list, it did poorly against an Eldar list which featured no melee, unlike the Harlequins I beat. My opponent hid in a corner and put out some Wave Serpents to stop me from DSing near his main firebase. Despite me having board control he managed to pick up better objectives than me. Doom and jinx kills big units, just kind of the perfect counter for my list I figure.

Fragile wrote:

Be aware, this is a dubious claim at best. End of turn is never defined as "out of a phase". In fact the example turn shows that the end of turn is the Morale Phase. The examples on 215 state "End of Battle Round" not player turn. Your best to take this to YMDC or talk with your TO about it.

There is a discussion going on in YMDC when outside/inside of a phase actually is. GW says you can play stratagems outside of a phase as many times as you want, but outside of a phase is undefined by the rules, except for the two examples on pg. 215.

So gents.

Lets talk knights and Harlies

Knights can gib Crypteks with those invuln ignoring missiles, ignoring LOS and character screening with the stratagem.

I will note that knights cannot fall back from Wraiths in combat since they are not *Infantry* or *Swarms* which is a nice plus.

It seems like Destroyers, Wraiths and Doomsday Arks are the go-to to me.

Harlies seem like something to treat like Dark Eldar. They are fast, but melt to anything they don't immediately destroy.
They also have some nasty sniping ability.

Maybe Sword and Board Lychguard? Dunno yet, won't see them on a board until Friday

Thoughts?

You actually bring up a fantastic point about the Lychguard to protect from those Missiles. Do you think they'll actually be common enough to warrant Lychguard use though? I haven't been to the Knight Tactica thread but I know at minimum nobody makes mention of it in the AdMech one.

I don't think you can double play a stratagem, even if its at end of turn and not part of a phase. I would call a TO if someone tried this on me. Its very gamey.

As far as knights go, doomsday arks just laugh at them. 2 arks will crush a knight and have little fear of getting retaliated against from what I see. Yeah, they may kill the cryptek, but that seems like a waste of a perfectly good knight attack. Plus you can just try and reanimated the cryptek with the stratagem if they do snipe the cryptek.

As for the stratagem at the end of your turn it seems pretty simple to me. End of your turn is the end of the moral phase. There isn't a magical "half second" when your turn is ending but not in a phase but before your opponents first phase. Whatever phase your in when you say it's your turn it's now their movement phase. You have to say "ok, at the end of my turn I play this stratagem and it's now your turn".

I would be pissed if someone did it to me, don't do it to others. It's a silly thing to try and fight over. Don't be silly.

 iGuy91 wrote:
So gents.

Lets talk knights and Harlies

Knights can gib Crypteks with those invuln ignoring missiles, ignoring LOS and character screening with the stratagem.

I will note that knights cannot fall back from Wraiths in combat since they are not *Infantry* or *Swarms* which is a nice plus.

It seems like Destroyers, Wraiths and Doomsday Arks are the go-to to me.

Harlies seem like something to treat like Dark Eldar. They are fast, but melt to anything they don't immediately destroy.
They also have some nasty sniping ability.

Maybe Sword and Board Lychguard? Dunno yet, won't see them on a board until Friday

Thoughts?

IK can fall back from Wraiths, unless the Wraiths completely surround it. Because iirc, it just say "they can fall back and shoot / charge, and when they fall back they can walk over infantry and swarms" (which aims to not being trapped by high number units) As for killing the IK, I think anything that can kill Magnus or Morty quick could melt the IK quicl because most of them only have 5++

Harlequins is a troublesome enemy to Necrons. Outside being fast as you mentioned, (which grants them the inititive in choosing which part of the battlefield they want to engage and freedom in which piece of terrain they can seek shelter), you should never forget that they have army wide 4++, cumulative -1 to hit comes in cheap which WILL drop your shooting accuarcy down to Orks shooty level, furthermore, their psyker gives all Harlequin infantry -1 to enemy wound rolls by just standing near them. So calling them fragile is crimially misleading. They are actually one of the most durable army in 8th 40K. When they get to strike on you, even those MSU 5 man infantry, just do not expect anything of your Necrons could live till they get RP or Living Metal, except maybe the full strong unit of Wraiths or high toughness vehicles or 20 strong Warriors near Chono Crypteks.

I have yet to figure out the good way to deal with the Harlequins, maybe Ctan's power to pile MW on them, maybe Storm Lord plus MD stratagem on them. Maybe multiple layers of 20 men Warriors, (1st line got shoot, charged and killed, 2nd line can shoot at those infantry, if 2nd line got consolidated into 1", fall back and let 3rd line shoot). I am also seeking for the potential way to fight against them. Looking advises. Thanks dakkanuts

Could always try scarab swarms. They are fast, hit decently for their cost, have a bunch of wounds, and explode for d3 mortal wounds. Put a transcendant ctan in there for support and that's a decent amount of mortal wounds you can dish out. 2 to 3 ctan powers if you use the stratagem + d3 from a swarm popping. Don't know how economical it would be though.

 Dynas wrote:
I don't think you can double play a stratagem, even if its at end of turn and not part of a phase. I would call a TO if someone tried this on me. Its very gamey.

Yes, you can. Read the rules, BRB pg. 215.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
Could always try scarab swarms. They are fast, hit decently for their cost, have a bunch of wounds, and explode for d3 mortal wounds. Put a transcendant ctan in there for support and that's a decent amount of mortal wounds you can dish out. 2 to 3 ctan powers if you use the stratagem + d3 from a swarm popping. Don't know how economical it would be though.

Scarabs die pretty fast to knights. I had 7 scarabs fighting an armiger with chainsword, it took two turns and all 7 were killed. The armiger has 4 attacks at S12 AP-3 and D3. Each successful wound kills a scarab base. A knight can simply ignore them, and walk over them, to hit your ctan. You would need 12 scarabs, and 24 turns, to kill a knight with D3 MW. And it costs you 14 CP.

Azuza001 wrote:
Could always try scarab swarms. They are fast, hit decently for their cost, have a bunch of wounds, and explode for d3 mortal wounds. Put a transcendant ctan in there for support and that's a decent amount of mortal wounds you can dish out. 2 to 3 ctan powers if you use the stratagem + d3 from a swarm popping. Don't know how economical it would be though.

Eh, other than smite distractions, it sounds like scarabs might not be too great vs harlies and Knights.

For knights, I know they can step over infantry and swarms, but I figured that also applied to the fallback mechanic. Figured wraiths could tie them up.

So....Harlequins have a -1 army wide to hit??
Is there a range restriction to that?

If not, Tesla is...really bad against them. You could MWBD to counter it, but they could also use a stratagem to grant another -1... Gauss AP is wasted.
Thoughts?

 Klowny wrote:

Doctoralex wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
So I attended a tournament yesterday

Awesome writeup! Got a couple of questions;

-How did the Nightbringer do in your list? What was his role in your army?

-You mentioned the Chrono-tek helping the survivability of the Destroyers. How was he able to keep up?

-Why squads of 5-man for your Destoyers?

-

Thanks man, im glad to answer your questions.

- I feel the mortal wound generation capabilities of C'tan shards are too good to pass up, and i try to include at least one in every list that I have. I usually default to the Nightbringer now, I have run combinations of all three now and pound for pound he just outperforms the others so much. 80% of the time i run the smite and pulse on him, as he wants to be close, so smite until you get there then just pulse mortal wounds. His role is pretty simple. Run up the board with the wraiths and put as much pressure on their front lines as possible. He is an absolute monster in CC, any non vehicle unit melts when he starts to look at them from shooting and he pumps out mortal wounds. Combined with entropic strike and he makes short work of archons 2++ just as well as flyrants. T7 and 8w with fly means he can just fly about, shooting, MW'ing and fighting whatever he needs to. Combined with the wraiths they soak up ALOT of firepower, the smart play is to focus down the destroyers but its hard to do this when you have a bunch of angry murder toasters protecting a cosmic murder machine bearing down on you.

- So this I haven't figured out completely yet, I was very lucky in my games this weekend. First game v nids they came to me, I didnt have to move much. Second and third games were variations of DoW, so range was never an issue. I have a couple of ideas how to get around it in future, there is a VoD in the list, which I could use to reposition, or I was thinking a HD in each squad to daisy chain back as he has longer range anyway. He needs to be 3" away, on average advance rolls he usually gets to where he needs to be, that and 24" range guns means the destroyers never usually need to go past half field, not a huge issue. The one game I lost him early I just flew my Cape-tek back to cover the destroyers, meant they died a bit quicker but I was making no 5++'s that game anyway so the chronometron didnt help at all lol.

- I build the list as you see (mostly), but only had 1 squad of destroyers and a DDA and TA. Then I dropped the DDA for 4 more destroyers, then realised that a TA is another squad of 5. A bit more jiggling around and I realised I could fit 15 in the list, and I would rather have 3x5 man squads than 1x5, 1x4 and 1x6 man units, as it gives pretty easy target priority to someone who knows how to negate RP by focusing a squad at a time down. The way I see it, once MD is up, you dont lose much at all from not having the extra in the unit with full rerolls.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
Yeah I ended up killing him from the tesseract vault. He brought down to 4 wounds from everything going at him (to be fair I was pretty stupid trying to take him on in cc) and then the swarmlord rolled 12 on smite and did 2 wounds to himself and 2 to my destroyer Lord, which the vault finished with cosmic fire. And the deceiver got hit first in cc before he got a change to hit back, it was what it was.

I like your list a lot. I just need to drop it down to 1500 for our local tournament rules.

This is what I am thinking.

Spoiler:

Catacomb Command Barge w/ warscythe
Destroyer Lord w / warscythe

Deceiver

Wraiths ( 5 of them )
Destroyer squad ( 5 in the squad )
Destroyer squad ( 5 in the squad )

Doomsday Ark

My issue is it's very low on command points, only 3 after using one for 2 artifacts for the hq's. That leaves very little room for stratagems but the force itself is incredibly fast and can output a lot of damage quickly. I could drop the dda for some immortals but I won't have any real way to get them around the board so I don't want to go that route.

I would personally drop the DDA for 4 more Destroyers if you have the models. Is the deciever meant to redeploy the destroyers? Your really need a cryptek with them to keep them alive, and id rock a Res orb on the D/lord if you could. You could chuck a VoD on a cryptek, blink him up the board with some destroyers, while the others get brought up with the Deciever if you wanted mobility?

Destroyers need cp. If you are running sautekh i would suggest a battalion minimum, and the sautekh warlord trait to farm them back. realistically in sautekh you are spending 3cp per turn on the destroyers. They are hungry for CP but it is extremely worth it. Immortals can camp objectives, score you points, which is crucial in most missions.

So that’s interesting I am curious how the nightbringer out performs the Transcendent when it can put out two powers a turn?

 iGuy91 wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Could always try scarab swarms. They are fast, hit decently for their cost, have a bunch of wounds, and explode for d3 mortal wounds. Put a transcendant ctan in there for support and that's a decent amount of mortal wounds you can dish out. 2 to 3 ctan powers if you use the stratagem + d3 from a swarm popping. Don't know how economical it would be though.

Eh, other than smite distractions, it sounds like scarabs might not be too great vs harlies and Knights.

For knights, I know they can step over infantry and swarms, but I figured that also applied to the fallback mechanic. Figured wraiths could tie them up.

So....Harlequins have a -1 army wide to hit??
Is there a range restriction to that?

If not, Tesla is...really bad against them. You could MWBD to counter it, but they could also use a stratagem to grant another -1... Gauss AP is wasted.
Thoughts?

The scarabs are for harlequins. For knights all you need are doomsday arks. 2 dda, 2d6 shots at str 10 ap-4 and d6 dmg, with quantum shielding not giving craps about many of their weapons, and 72" range, it shouldn't be an issue.

So that’s interesting I am curious how the nightbringer out performs the Transcendent when it can put out two powers a turn?

The Nightbringer is superior to the T. C'tan IMO. 15 points cheaper, better in melee against any non-vehicle that is T4 or higher and his Gaze of Death is pretty much equal to a second C'tan power.

Has anybody tried Mephrit Deathmarks yet?

On paper they seem pretty potent. Meph code+TA at rapid fire range means 10 can legitimately threaten most bog standard HQs on the drop. 2.6 MWs plus another 2 to 4 normal wounds depending on toughness and saves. One unit could seriously make most HQs at least a little hesitant, and two units can take care of event he tougher ones with little trouble.

That's also not using MWBD or Veil or anything else on them. For the cost of 1 CP you can really bring some pain.

I'm wondering how easy people will find it is to bubble wrap against it and how quickly we can remover that wrapper.

Shadar_Logoth wrote:
Has anybody tried Mephrit Deathmarks yet?

On paper they seem pretty potent. Meph code+TA at rapid fire range means 10 can legitimately threaten most bog standard HQs on the drop. 2.6 MWs plus another 2 to 4 normal wounds depending on toughness and saves. One unit could seriously make most HQs at least a little hesitant, and two units can take care of event he tougher ones with little trouble.

That's also not using MWBD or Veil or anything else on them. For the cost of 1 CP you can really bring some pain.

I'm wondering how easy people will find it is to bubble wrap against it and how quickly we can remover that wrapper.

Definitely want to try it! There are some things to take into consideration though;

-RAW says a unit using Auspex Scan or Forewarned can shoot at them before they get a chance to fire when using Ethereal Interception.

-You cannot use Solar Pulse and/or Talent for Annihilation when they use Ethereal Interception.

-You can block of a flank if the enemy is dropping in two units as a deep-strike combo. For instance, an IG enemy might drop in a unit of Scions. You then drop in the Deathmarks with Ethereal Interception. Make sure you create a semi-circle around them. Now there shouldn't be enough room for the Tempestor Prime to drop in the 6" order range.

The nightbringer can fight the swarmlord in combat, for a number of reasons.
His shooting attack that hits and wounds on 2+ and forces him on his invo should strip wounds before you get there, along with the mortal wounds from the C'tan powers youll be popping off. Once in combat it comes down to who can make more 4+ invuls, but if you can manage to get the first swing in combat, entropic strike with your fist hit you can usually swing the fight in your favour. He is not as easy as just running at and killing, you need to weaken him and fight on your terms but it is possible to kill him.

Hell ive killed him with a squad of wraiths before. 3++ is way better than 4++, and when each strike is doing 2d to him, it can do it. It took me about 6 rounds of combat to finally down him with the wraiths but they got the job done.

Well, considering that the Swarmlord has 3++ vs melee weapons, you were playing very wrong.

Raxxamous wrote:

Well, considering that the Swarmlord has 3++ vs melee weapons, you were playing very wrong.

If he killed the swarmlord with his wraiths its not him who played wrong.

 iGuy91 wrote:
So gents.

Lets talk knights and Harlies

Knights can gib Crypteks with those invuln ignoring missiles, ignoring LOS and character screening with the stratagem.

I will note that knights cannot fall back from Wraiths in combat since they are not *Infantry* or *Swarms* which is a nice plus.

It seems like Destroyers, Wraiths and Doomsday Arks are the go-to to me.

Harlies seem like something to treat like Dark Eldar. They are fast, but melt to anything they don't immediately destroy.
They also have some nasty sniping ability.

Maybe Sword and Board Lychguard? Dunno yet, won't see them on a board until Friday

Thoughts?

I honestly can't imagine how Knights are going to be a problem if you're building a list with 3 DDAs and 6 Destroyers, on the other hand if you're not prepared there might not be much you can do. I haven't faced many Knights in 8th and at least a couple of them I faced with a Gauss Pylon, so I might be underestimating the threat.

If you charge an Imperial Knight with a unit of Wraiths but also charge a unit of Guardsmen, you get within 1" of the Guardsmen but not the Knight, destroy the Guardsmen. End of Fight Phase you attack again, pile into the Knight. Does the Knight get to attack?

Punish Harlies by surrounding their vehicles with your fast units, form a ring around them 1,5" away and then charge to just within 1". If you pop it in the Shooting phase the guys inside die and they also die if you destroy them in the Fight phase. Nephrekh units are great at surrounding vehicles and strangling units inside. Particle beamers should be great against their vehicles, they'll do more damage than Tesla against Harlequin vehicles because of the -1 to hit and the strength actually being relevant. If you run them with Nephrekh you can run up 20" to help strangle some clowns.

Have a good screen for your important units in case your opponent doesn't get close enough for you to surround his vehicles and instead decides to move out and charge from 20" away, don't let your opponent charge or use fusion pistols against your Destroyers/DDAs/Tesla Immortals. Anrakyr helps out a lot, counter-charging them is pretty effective since they need to strike first to win. Vehicle-less lists are good because while QS is great against fusion pistols, it's useless against haywire. Either a giant Scarab screen if your opponent doesn't use many of the D3 dmg melee weapons or a mix of Scarabs and Warriors if they do.

Don't get too greedy with your Destroyers firing at too many targets at once, if you're forced to shoot at vehicles with your Tesla Immortals you're having a bad time. Never shoot at one unit with a Tesla Immortal squad, always target at least 2 units to prevent your opponent from halving your firepower with -1 to hit.

Lychguard don't deal much damage, you might as well take more infantry, not only do you do the same damage in CC, have the same level of survivability if you invest in a Chronotek, you also get to shoot. I don't think they're not terrible against them, but you don't need the AP -3 weapons, I'd rather have more Wraiths or Scarabs. Remember with the Harlequins that they can move through your models, so you have to leave no way for the Solitaire to get within 1" of your Cryptek.

I played an ITC game against a Berserker Battalion with 3 Defilers supported by a Khorne Daemon Patrol with my Anrakyr/Szeras/Praetorian list. My opponent got first turn, I got one successful wound between Szeras, HDs and Anrakyr turn 1 dealing 2 or 3 damage, Berserkers and Bloodletters tore through 38 Warriors turn 2 while I failed to properly screen his Bloodletter bomb turn 2 letting them hold down my Praetorians so I couldn't counter-charge. I used one Scarab unit to stop two of my opponent's Defilers from shooting turn 2 and another unit I tried to hide because he had a mission to kill them, he wound up killing the second unit with his Bloodletters regardless. I should have used them to slow down his Berserkers and provided proper DS screening instead of spending a unit to slow down Defilers and trying to hide a unit just because of VP when it meant my opponent overwhelming me. I really want to cut down on the 9-man Scarab squad because of gang-busters, but I'm not sure what to spend my pts on, if I didn't mind having 3 units of Scarabs then I would definitely split it up into 7,6,3 which I will do if my opponent is bringing a competetive army. My Heavy Destroyers were Nephrekh, but I decided that I'd rather have them be Mephrit in future games so they can benefit from the Lord. Nephrekh Wraiths might be better than Praetorians, but Praetorians do have a lot more damage output vs. 1W models and they might actually be better in a list like this which is built to support them (Anrakyr can MWBD them and grants them +1 A, Szeras can improve their RP). I think HDs fit in this list more than DDAs do, but I think the whole concept of the list might be flawed.

Is it just me, or is Mephrit getting a bit of a bad rep for no reason?

I mean, look at the advantages it brings:

-Whatever infantry unit you Veil up (Warrior blob or Immortals) will have a nice boost in damage ouput.
-The DDA is, in my opinion, scarier as Mephrit than as Sautekh. I had a game where one DDA held a flank on its own against two units of Scions, thanks to the AP-2 of it's Gauss Array.
-its arguably the best dynasty for Tomb Blades. Especially Tesla ones, who can either stay save at 24" or go in for the kill at 12".
-Talent for Annihilation is an excellent stratagem that I pretty much use every turn. It simply ups a unit damage output by a fair amount. While not as powerful as Sautekh's Methodical Destruction, it is far more versatile and doesn't need a previous dealt wound to be activated.

I think a lot of people see Mephrit as a 'trap' dynasty, because Mephrit lists usually involve a lot of Warriors, thrown forward by the Deceiver. While this can lead to a powerful alpha-strike, it usually leads to a lot of dead Warriors. Many players use them too greedily because they want that sweet AP-2 on their Warriors.
Simply hang back and wait for the opportune moment to get into half range.

The big reason why Mephrit isn't chosen a lot is because it doesn't synergize well with two of your main units; Destroyers and Wraiths.
However, I think that creating a core of Warriors/Immortals as Mephrit and putting the Destroyers or Wraiths in an Auxiliary Support Detachment is the best way to use it.

Any consensus on Lychguard/Praetorians? I got 10 of em on sprues. I know neither choice is super competitve but I'm wondering how you guys have seen them perform.

I don't think it's a trap to use mephrit by itself, the trap is when it's overused. I mean, mephrit on warriors and immortals is great. Turning ap0 to ap-1 is very good, and ap-1 to ap-2 is amazing. I have used it when I wanted to show my opponent once why he was wrong to think that my warriors couldn't hurt his predator tank. Hitting on 2's (mwbd), wounding on 5's, with 40 shots, ended up doing 7 wounds after saves. Friendly game and not much else to shoot at with them.

The trap becomes "I have to get into half range or my trait was a waste" line of thinking. I have seen it happen. People moving their doomsday arks up to get next turn ap-5 because ap-4 wasn't good enough?

Point is there are 2 ways to make a competitive list with Necrons and their dynastys.

1. Pick the dynasty you like then find the best units that work with that dynasty to get the most out of it.
2. Pick the units you like and then find the dynasty that helps them the most.

These are not the same things. I took nilitak in my recent game, and that army had 4 units in it that could take advantage of the don't move reroll 1's. 2 doomsday arks, tesseract vault, and catacomb command barge. Everything else was already a destroyer. If I was working off of build design 1 I probably would have gone with mephrit. My enemy targets were right up on me all game (freaking speed nids) and mephrit would have been useful a few times when my opponent had 6+ saves that he made like a boss. But I went with 2 because I wanted my dda to be sure to hit and I wanted to get my tesseract vault at 2+/3++ save on an objective middle of the table for maximum annoyance.

I think if I was to go full mephrit it would be with destroyers, dda, and annihilation barges with destroyers on flanks.

Oh, different question, can the nilitak stratagem work on wraiths? The idea of 2++ wraiths sitting in combat wreaking face is just.... so tempting......

"I can win a GT with an army with no guns. I'm not sure I could do it with crons" - Nick Nanavati

FeelsBadMan

So I just picked up the 2016 start collecting box of crons as a project, and a clamshell cryptek cause he looked cool. not sure of my meta as I recently moved to a new state (from the Columbus ga area to the st. lous area. But looking through the book I kinda dig the suahtek dynasty. (I like the idea of assault guns every where)

At best I'm a casual player I normally play straight guard. any thoughts on what to pick up next? I was thinking forgebane.

edit for typos and misspelling and general garble

vict0988 wrote:
If you charge an Imperial Knight with a unit of Wraiths but also charge a unit of Guardsmen, you get within 1" of the Guardsmen but not the Knight, destroy the Guardsmen. End of Fight Phase you attack again, pile into the Knight. Does the Knight get to attack?

Yes, any models who are within 1" of enemy models, or charged, can attack.

Doctoralex wrote:
-Whatever infantry unit you Veil up (Warrior blob or Immortals) will have a nice boost in damage ouput.

Unless its a melee unit, who doesnt benefit from mephrit, it will get tied up in CC, and cant shoot next turn.

Doctoralex wrote:
-its arguably the best dynasty for Tomb Blades. Especially Tesla ones, who can either stay save at 24" or go in for the kill at 12".

Agreed, in this case mephrit makes sense because they can FLY. Even if they get tied up in melee, they can still fallback and shoot.

Doctoralex wrote:
I think a lot of people see Mephrit as a 'trap' dynasty, because Mephrit lists usually involve a lot of Warriors, thrown forward by the Deceiver. While this can lead to a powerful alpha-strike, it usually leads to a lot of dead Warriors. Many players use them too greedily because they want that sweet AP-2 on their Warriors.
Simply hang back and wait for the opportune moment to get into half range.

Most games are over by turn 3. How long do you want to wait ??

Doctoralex wrote:
The big reason why Mephrit isn't chosen a lot is because it doesn't synergize well with two of your main units; Destroyers and Wraiths.
However, I think that creating a core of Warriors/Immortals as Mephrit and putting the Destroyers or Wraiths in an Auxiliary Support Detachment is the best way to use it.

Wasting a command point ? Not a good idea.

Azuza001 wrote:
Oh, different question, can the nilitak stratagem work on wraiths? The idea of 2++ wraiths sitting in combat wreaking face is just.... so tempting......

Yes it does. The dynasty is called nihilakh.

rvd1ofakind wrote:"I can win a GT with an army with no guns. I'm not sure I could do it with crons" - Nick Nanavati

FeelsBadMan

Is that the IDICbeer 40k guy on youtube ?