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Lets talk about how to kill a knight. One way would be DDAs, or destroyers with EP. Problem is that knights can get a 3+ invuln sv against shooting attacks. Their "weakness" is melee, they can "only" get a 4+ invuln sv in melee with the rotate ion shield stratagem, and they only get a 5+ invuln sv against melee (buffed to 4+ with the stratagem) when they pick a relic. An overlord with voidscythe has S10 AP-4 D3 and 3 attacks. He can buff himself with MWBD, negating the -1 to hit for the voidscythe. Three of them would be serious threat to a knight. Novokh would let them re-roll failed hits in the fight phase which is critical because all attacks must succeed. Anrakyr would help with his +1A buff, but its impossible to get him anywhere fast. One overlord would be the warlord with implacable conqueror, re-rolling failed charge rolls with +1 from MWBD. Problem is how to deliver them. One can be veiled with a cryptek. The other two would need to be teleported from a night scythe. But the night scythe can be shot down before it gets close to a knight. The deceiver could redeploy them 12" from the knight, but they wouldnt be able to charge. With nephrekh they could deepstrike but it would cost 3 CP, and each of them would need a 9" charge, re-rolling because of the warlord trait, they cant use MWBD, because they arent on the battlefield, and they would only hit on 3s. How can we deliver them safely ?

As boring as it is I think mass Wrathes are our only solid way of dealing with them.
DDA's can not do enough damage in a game to bring ONE down. Destroyers could if they were left alone all game... which will never ever happen. Scythe Lytchguard with that Dispersion strat getting them up to str8 would work but they have no reliable way to get them to the knight and die to a stiff breeze. So we are left with boring Wrathe spam.... again.

Fingers crossed the new FW spider tank will be a real answer.

Aye, Wraiths are solid because they cannot fall-back 'through' them, since they aren't Infantry or Swarm.

Don't know about the base-size of a Knight, but you probably need 5-6 Wraiths to surround him while staying in coherency. Then the Knight will probably take one down with his Titanic Feet, thus making the strategy not all that viable.

6 novokh wraith would not deal enough damage to a knight with a 4+ invuln sv. Its only 4-6 wounds. Nihilakh wraith can get a 2+ invuln sv with reclaim a lost empire, but its very unlikely that they survive long enough.

 p5freak wrote:
Lets talk about how to kill a knight. ...
Their "weakness" is melee, they can "only" get a 4+ invuln sv in melee with the rotate ion shield stratagem, and they only get a 5+ invuln sv against melee (buffed to 4+ with the stratagem) when they pick a relic. An overlord with voidscythe has S10 AP-4 D3 and 3 attacks. He can buff himself with MWBD, negating the -1 to hit for the voidscythe. ...

I haven't done the math, but how about 3-4 ccb? One can take lightning field for one mw per turn, and the other blood scythe. They are limited to warscythes but their QS means only Titanic feet can hurt them so you don't have to worry about cc knights...

At 169 a pop with a gauss cannon they aren't cheap, but the speed and exta mwbd's could open you up to very aggressive play - a warlord with crimson haze would make a fairly ok combo with other cc units.

3 attacks on the ccb really isn't enough, but as others have said what options are there? (Wraiths, but they would be perfect to support!)

MrPieChee wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Lets talk about how to kill a knight. ...
Their "weakness" is melee, they can "only" get a 4+ invuln sv in melee with the rotate ion shield stratagem, and they only get a 5+ invuln sv against melee (buffed to 4+ with the stratagem) when they pick a relic. An overlord with voidscythe has S10 AP-4 D3 and 3 attacks. He can buff himself with MWBD, negating the -1 to hit for the voidscythe. ...

I haven't done the math, but how about 3-4 ccb? One can take lightning field for one mw per turn, and the other blood scythe. They are limited to warscythes but their QS means only Titanic feet can hurt them so you don't have to worry about cc knights...

And their not infantry nor swarm.

There's the rule of three though

I have a list with 2 sentry heat cannons and 2 DDA and 1 unit of 6 destroyers.

or 1 gauss pylon and 2 sentry heat cannons and 6 Destroyers.

I think against the Imperial Knight, you might have to try to lure their "rotate iron shield" out on one Kinght, then switch to the other quick. Also, if you lured the stratagem on the Dominus class Knight, then it is profit for you because it cost them 3CP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Said this before somewhere, if I know I will be up against Imperial Knights, and I have that many models I would bring 3 units of 3 Heavy Destroyers, and 3 units of 6 men Destroyers w 1 Heavy in each.

MrPieChee wrote:

I haven't done the math, but how about 3-4 ccb? One can take lightning field for one mw per turn, and the other blood scythe. They are limited to warscythes but their QS means only Titanic feet can hurt them so you don't have to worry about cc knights...

At 169 a pop with a gauss cannon they aren't cheap, but the speed and exta mwbd's could open you up to very aggressive play - a warlord with crimson haze would make a fairly ok combo with other cc units.

3 attacks on the ccb really isn't enough, but as others have said what options are there? (Wraiths, but they would be perfect to support!)

CCBs are expensive and they need chaff to protect them from being killed before they reach the knight. And if they surround and trap the knight one wont survive long enough for the entire game, only one needs to die for the knight to break free. A knight still has 12 3+ attacks with titanic feet. QS wont stop a lot of D3 damage. Lightning field only does 1 MW on a 4+. Thats something like 650 pts. for just one knight. A knight list can have up to five of them.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
I think against the Imperial Knight, you might have to try to lure their "rotate iron shield" out on one Kinght, then switch to the other quick. Also, if you lured the stratagem on the Dominus class Knight, then it is profit for you because it cost them 3CP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Said this before somewhere, if I know I will be up against Imperial Knights, and I have that many models I would bring 3 units of 3 Heavy Destroyers, and 3 units of 6 men Destroyers w 1 Heavy in each.

I would bring 3 DDAs and some kind of melee, 6 or 12 wraith probably, they are the most durable units we have.

Pyrothem wrote:
As boring as it is I think mass Wrathes are our only solid way of dealing with them.
DDA's can not do enough damage in a game to bring ONE down. Destroyers could if they were left alone all game... which will never ever happen. Scythe Lytchguard with that Dispersion strat getting them up to str8 would work but they have no reliable way to get them to the knight and die to a stiff breeze. So we are left with boring Wrathe spam.... again.

Fingers crossed the new FW spider tank will be a real answer.

I seriously hope that that thing won't be a better answer to Knights than Pylons are, also hoping for a Knight nerf, Knight meta is gak meta, I guess we can hope our Thousand Sons bros can make the Knight players cry with mortal wounds, because I don't think C'tan do enough to really make a difference. As for Wraiths, 18 won't be enough, part of a strategy to have a chance against Knights? Maybe, but not really something that will deal with the problem by themselves. Multiple Pylons are the only real answer. Bring 2 units of 4 Wraiths to easily get 36 of the 48 Power for Deep Striking two Pylons, units of 6 Immortals and 4 Scarabs are also decent. Also makes most other mechanised lists cry and since Shadowswords will become more popular and since Maggy, Morty and Tesseract Vaults are all popular the list might not be the dumbest thing ever. Also gaks all over serpent shields, -1D? So 5+D3? You're still probably losing big time to any Aeldari list, hitting their dumb -2 flyers on 3s isn't bad though, given that Aeldari are really popular and their Knights are bad I don't think this list will do anything other than make Knight players feel bad, but I'm not certain that's a bad thing.

Doctoralex wrote:
Aye, Wraiths are solid because they cannot fall-back 'through' them, since they aren't Infantry or Swarm.

Don't know about the base-size of a Knight, but you probably need 5-6 Wraiths to surround him while staying in coherency. Then the Knight will probably take one down with his Titanic Feet, thus making the strategy not all that viable.

You only need 4 while staying in coherency and there's no rule forcing you to keep coherency when you remove models, so 3 will keep it locked. That being said, it still only takes a couple of turns for them to get out and you're relying on your opponent not moving in formation to allow himself plenty of escape paths. It gets better if you can use terrain to pin it down, on a good day you can get away with 1 Wraiths.

MrPieChee wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Lets talk about how to kill a knight. ...
Their "weakness" is melee, they can "only" get a 4+ invuln sv in melee with the rotate ion shield stratagem, and they only get a 5+ invuln sv against melee (buffed to 4+ with the stratagem) when they pick a relic. An overlord with voidscythe has S10 AP-4 D3 and 3 attacks. He can buff himself with MWBD, negating the -1 to hit for the voidscythe. ...

I haven't done the math, but how about 3-4 ccb?

Won't do jack, voidscythe Olord does 3 times the damage of a CCB at two thirds the price. So you either get two CCBs dealing 1x damage or 3 Voidscythe Olords dealing 4,5x damage. A CCB with the -1 Dmg WL trait dies to 24 attacks, a CCB with 4+ invul dies even faster since your opponent will always use feet against a CCB. You can hold it with just two Wraiths if you do get a CCB or an Annihilation Barge in. Further, the feet will absolutely destroy CCBs, if you're fighting Knights with mixed weapons then Olords probably won't do the trick either. Maybe two Voidscythe Olords and 6 Wraiths can get the job done, but then you've still suffered the Knight's shooting and you're overspending or in case of a melee Knight you've just overspent a lot, it gets worse pts-wise if you need to ferry the Voidscythe Olords with a Ghost Ark if your opponent isn't coming to you.

Just lost an ITC game against 3 Renegade Knights with twin-gatlings and a Nurgle Daemon Battalion with a Sautekh Battalion, Sautekh Outrider and Nephrekh Outrider list with 12 Destroyers. List and battle recap spoilered.

3 games i played against Knights wraiths been not very impressive. I had only 1 unit though. Like i charge one, lose 1 wraith to overwatch, another 1-2 to attacks, while dealing him about 4 damage.

One time i was able to lock Knight in combat - thats not easy, cause other knights near are characters and can make heroic intervention, which increase casualties in a wraith squad and most likely after fighting with 2 knights you wont have enought bodies to lock someone.

I dont see ways for necrons to win knights ATM. We have ways not to lose on 0 points, but dont think we can win.

Sounds like Knights just ruined 40k

torblind wrote:
Sounds like Knights just ruined 40k

They are strong, no doubts. We just dont have enought tools. Most of our book units are overpriced. Those which are not can be countered by knights -> sad necron players.

I think we're too reliant on AP to function against a lot of things; if we had a Death Hex equivalent then the Doomsday Ark would look a hell of a lot better against IK's.

We just need adequate prices and somewhere profiles changes (Annihilation barge). Annihilation barge supposed to fill same role as Ravager with desintegrators. Why Ravager is much better, while costing lower? Why Flayed Ones 17 points pm? Why Monolith 381 point? Don't even start comparing our flyers to DE ones (or any other faction). Fixing all those stuff will help a lot.

Because we have wonky defensive rules like Reanimation and Quantum Shielding that we pay a gak load of points for. Ditto on Monolith, they are worse than a Knight is like every conceivable way. Compare a Monolith to a Gallant that is almost 50 points cheaper....

An anti Knight list:




Lots of fast little units to play hide and seek while trying to grab objectives. Hope the Knight player overkills and underkills units to reduce their efficiency. Slow play like a MF. Necrons can't kill Knights so don't even bother trying.

Depressing.

Edit: Forgot the rule of 3 on HQs. Swap 2 overlords for Crypteks/Lords.

Looks like it would give a running for knights.

I might consider bigger wraith squads. They aren't infantry right? Tie up knights in h2h they can't escape. Knights hate that and clearing bit bigger squad with stomps would take annoying long time

Knights are characters and can heroic intervene when they are close to each other. Your wraith wont survive 24 titanic feet attacks.

I still think DDAs are the way to go. Even though knights are "weak" in melee, we just dont have powerful enough melee units. If you play against knights put your DDAs on top of terrain. They must play a stratagem to attack the DDA in melee, and they must use their chainsword or gauntlet, titanic feet attacks automatically fail, which means you are safe, because QS will ignore the damage on a roll of 1-5. If you play the quantum shield stratagem you are 100% safe.

 p5freak wrote:
titanic feet attacks automatically fail

Why?

In my games 3 knights shooting kills 2 DDA in cover per turn. Avenger gatling cannon is just to good against it.

-Sentinel- wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
titanic feet attacks automatically fail

Why?

In my games 3 knights shooting kills 2 DDA in cover per turn. Avenger gatling cannon is just to good against it.

Read the stratagem. My advice is against melee attacks, not shooting attacks. Did you use the quantum shield stratagem ? Did you have a cloaktek which can repair DDAs ? Did you have a spyder which can repair DDAs ?

Knights could probably ignore the DDAs all game and tank their shooting if they had too.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Knights could probably ignore the DDAs all game and tank their shooting if they had too.

What about 3 DDAs and a pylon? Start the shooting with the DDAs, knowing that he needs the imvuø shield for the pylon he likely doesn't deploy it.

Then with the pylon you one shot another knight instead, even with invul shield, that gives you 1.5 knights worth of shooting damage.

By turn 2 your maybe putting out the last half worth of knight to finish another off, them the rest of the game you just have to real eith the remaining knight.

Also another fun fact: 3 full Tesla immortals with MWBD outperform 3 DDAs with DD Cannon against T8/3+/4++

Two options above, So I will be facing a friendly 1850 round robin this week there is two boards one with little to no cover but some line of sight blocking and the other loads of both so tough for vehicles, potentially going up against ad Mec custodes assassins death guard Raven Guard Ultramarines and thousand sons finding difficult what to use the others pionts for to bring a rounded list I am thinking of dropping the 20 warriors for immortals my thinking is they are just going to veil in as a distraction I could drop storm L I really love his mortal wound storm and his two MWBD on the immortals is excellent any thoughts would be much appreciated

They can just ignore the DDA's. They only do like 3.5ish wounds around and pop real easy to Gats and shoot mini knights.

Pyrothem wrote:
They can just ignore the DDA's. They only do like 3.5ish wounds around and pop real easy to Gats and shoot mini knights.

Its more like 5. If you get it +1 to hit and 10 gauss shots in range, you're looking at 8 wounds

Curious79 wrote:

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Necrons) [61 PL, 1190pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Sautekh

+ HQ +

Cryptek [5 PL, 80pts]: Artefact (Sautekh): The Abyssal Staff, Staff of Light

Imotekh the Stormlord [10 PL, 200pts]: Warlord

+ Troops +

Immortals [8 PL, 170pts]: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine

Immortals [8 PL, 170pts]: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine

Immortals [8 PL, 170pts]: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine

+ Elites +

C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer [12 PL, 210pts]

Deathmarks [5 PL, 95pts]: 5x Deathmark

Deathmarks [5 PL, 95pts]: 5x Deathmark

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Necrons) [44 PL, 659pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Nephrekh

+ HQ +

Cryptek [5 PL, 85pts]: Artefact (Nephrekh): The Solar Staff, Canoptek Cloak, Staff of Light

+ Fast Attack +

Canoptek Scarabs [6 PL, 104pts]: 8x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

Canoptek Wraiths [18 PL, 220pts]: 4x Canoptek Wraith

Destroyers [15 PL, 250pts]
. 5x Destroyer: 5x Gauss Cannon

++ Total: [105 PL, 1849pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)




++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Necrons) [55 PL, 1070pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Sautekh

+ HQ +

Cryptek [5 PL, 80pts]: Artefact: The Veil of Darkness, Staff of Light

Imotekh the Stormlord [10 PL, 200pts]: Warlord

+ Troops +

Immortals [8 PL, 170pts]: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine

Immortals [8 PL, 170pts]: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine

Necron Warriors [12 PL, 240pts]: 20x Necron Warrior

+ Elites +

C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer [12 PL, 210pts]

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Necrons) [36 PL, 586pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Nephrekh

+ HQ +

Cryptek [5 PL, 85pts]: Artefact (Nephrekh): The Solar Staff, Canoptek Cloak, Staff of Light

+ Fast Attack +

Canoptek Scarabs [6 PL, 91pts]: 7x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

Destroyers [15 PL, 250pts]
. 5x Destroyer: 5x Gauss Cannon

Tomb Blades [10 PL, 160pts]
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Gauss Blasters: 2x Gauss Blaster
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Gauss Blasters: 2x Gauss Blaster
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Gauss Blasters: 2x Gauss Blaster
. Tomb Blade: Shadowloom, Shieldvanes
. . Two Gauss Blasters: 2x Gauss Blaster

++ Total: [91 PL, 1656pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

Two options above, So I will be facing a friendly 1850 round robin this week there is two boards one with little to no cover but some line of sight blocking and the other loads of both so tough for vehicles, potentially going up against ad Mec custodes assassins death guard Raven Guard Ultramarines and thousand sons finding difficult what to use the others pionts for to bring a rounded list I am thinking of dropping the 20 warriors for immortals my thinking is they are just going to veil in as a distraction I could drop storm L I really love his mortal wound storm and his two MWBD on the immortals is excellent any thoughts would be much appreciated

I vote the 2nd list if you aren't looking for direct tweaks. It doesn't have deathmarks, which are pretty bad.

torblind wrote:

Also another fun fact: 3 full Tesla immortals with MWBD outperform 3 DDAs with DD Cannon against T8/3+/4++

With 24" range. It will only take one turn for a knight to tie them all up (at least two) in melee, and stop their shooting.

 p5freak wrote:

-Sentinel- wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
titanic feet attacks automatically fail

Why?

In my games 3 knights shooting kills 2 DDA in cover per turn. Avenger gatling cannon is just to good against it.

Read the stratagem. My advice is against melee attacks, not shooting attacks. Did you use the quantum shield stratagem ? Did you have a cloaktek which can repair DDAs ? Did you have a spyder which can repair DDAs ?

What stratagem is it? Why can't you just state why the fail ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pyrothem wrote:
They can just ignore the DDA's. They only do like 3.5ish wounds around and pop real easy to Gats and shoot mini knights.

Sautek Stalkers with Heat Rays, use deceiver if necessary to get them in close. After they attack, then use your Destroyers with Methodical Destruction, basically now hitting on 2's reroll 1's, lord for Reroll 1's aura. Use DDA to bring them down. Hell Even deathmarks, since they are only S4, will be wound on 6's but each one is a mortal wound. Get them low enough and Times Arrow could be used to finish one off, might be worth the CP reroll as well.

 Dynas wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

-Sentinel- wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
titanic feet attacks automatically fail

Why?

In my games 3 knights shooting kills 2 DDA in cover per turn. Avenger gatling cannon is just to good against it.

Read the stratagem. My advice is against melee attacks, not shooting attacks. Did you use the quantum shield stratagem ? Did you have a cloaktek which can repair DDAs ? Did you have a spyder which can repair DDAs ?

What stratagem is it? Why can't you just state why the fail ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pyrothem wrote:
They can just ignore the DDA's. They only do like 3.5ish wounds around and pop real easy to Gats and shoot mini knights.

Sautek Stalkers with Heat Rays, use deceiver if necessary to get them in close. After they attack, then use your Destroyers with Methodical Destruction, basically now hitting on 2's reroll 1's, lord for Reroll 1's aura. Use DDA to bring them down. Hell Even deathmarks, since they are only S4, will be wound on 6's but each one is a mortal wound. Get them low enough and Times Arrow could be used to finish one off, might be worth the CP reroll as well.

Sadly, Time's Arrow is based on their base wounds stat, not their current wound count