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 p5freak wrote:

torblind wrote:

On it's core it's designed not to scale.

In a 1000 pt game it's solid. On a 2000 pt game he is bringing enough firepower to clear your units one at a time and you never get a single roll.

Not really. It does scale. In a 1000 pts game you dont have as many units, or as many models. Less models, less dice to reanimate. Same with your opponent, he only has half the firepower compared to 2000 pts. Twice the firepower against twice as many models to reanimate at 2k.

A 20 man unit of warriors is a 20 man unit of warriors in a 1000 point game or a 2000 point game, but in the 2000 point game it's a hell of a lot easier to kill 20 warriors in one round. That's why RP doesn't scale.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

A 20 man unit of warriors is a 20 man unit of warriors in a 1000 point game or a 2000 point game, but in the 2000 point game it's a hell of a lot easier to kill 20 warriors in one round. That's why RP doesn't scale.

In a 2k game you have 2 or even 3 units of 20 warriors.

 p5freak wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

A 20 man unit of warriors is a 20 man unit of warriors in a 1000 point game or a 2000 point game, but in the 2000 point game it's a hell of a lot easier to kill 20 warriors in one round. That's why RP doesn't scale.

In a 2k game you have 2 or even 3 units of 20 warriors.

Of course,

but then enemy killed all warriors in the first squad, and that RP roll is now a daed weight. However the Necron still pays for that in their warrior price.

 p5freak wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

A 20 man unit of warriors is a 20 man unit of warriors in a 1000 point game or a 2000 point game, but in the 2000 point game it's a hell of a lot easier to kill 20 warriors in one round. That's why RP doesn't scale.

In a 2k game you have 2 or even 3 units of 20 warriors.

The additional units don't prevent the first unit from getting wiped more easily, losing its RP.

The scaling issue of RP is with defence, not offence

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Of course,

but then enemy killed all warriors in the first squad, and that RP roll is now a daed weight. However the Necron still pays for that in their warrior price.

You are paying 1 pt. for RP for every warrior. Thats like for free. Compare the stats of a warrior to a space marine or scout, they are pretty much the same. Warriors are a bit worse in some stats, but they have a better gun. A space marine is 13, scout is 11 and warrior is 12.

 p5freak wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Of course,

but then enemy killed all warriors in the first squad, and that RP roll is now a daed weight. However the Necron still pays for that in their warrior price.

You are paying 1 pt. for RP for every warrior. Thats like for free. Compare the stats of a warrior to a space marine or scout, they are pretty much the same. Warriors are a bit worse in some stats, but they have a better gun. A space marine is 13, scout is 11 and warrior is 12.

It's more than point cost for an isolated unit.

SM have Transports
SM have better character auras
SM have this and that, in which each unit is a cog in a machinery.

Necrons have RP to withstand that which SM have to throw at them. RP doesn't scale and has unfavorable game mechanics. RP may or may not have been intended as a strong defining army ability, it most likely is, and as such it has apparent flaws.

I didn't even realise RP scaling or not was up for debate, it clearly doesn't scale and hamstrings the army to quite a large extent. At best? It sucks. Except when your opponent messes up and fails to kill the last model in a squad, I have to admit it's awesome then. But it's not good for an army to base its strengths around your opponents mistakes or bad luck. With DG, for example, it doesn't matter what you do or how you target them, they always get their 5+++, you can't 'nullify' that, nor should you be able to.

 p5freak wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Of course,

but then enemy killed all warriors in the first squad, and that RP roll is now a daed weight. However the Necron still pays for that in their warrior price.

You are paying 1 pt. for RP for every warrior. Thats like for free. Compare the stats of a warrior to a space marine or scout, they are pretty much the same. Warriors are a bit worse in some stats, but they have a better gun. A space marine is 13, scout is 11 and warrior is 12.

I play both Space Marines and Necrons. And I've been shouting that marines are overpriced a lot, imo Battle Brother marines should be 10-11pts and Scouts be 9-10pts.

But that is not the topic here. We are talking about the usefulness of Reanimation Protocols. This rule, while revert back to be similar to what it was in the old and really fluffy rather than the OP super FnP, which I welcome this change. But it did lose on the timing of activation. Had it been able to activate on the end of enemy shooting and assault phases rather than "at the beginning of your turn". It will be much more useful and Necrons will still be the icon of undying on the tabletop.

The more I think about it, the more I feel like it is the restricted moment of activation of this rule that making it awful. If it is allowed to activate at the end of enemy shooting and each combat phase like the pre 5th edition. It would be awesome. Hell, even if it is activated at the end of the Necron movement phase it would be much better than "at the beginning of the Necron turn". It is THE moment that you cannot react to the units that have taken heavy casauties.

For example, a squad of Immortals that is 5" away from any of the Cryptek had been shoot and chop by the enemy, leaving only 3 guys standing, sorry, you are too far from the buff characters, you only RP on 5s, and enemy will destroy the rest of guys next turn. Want to move the Cryptek into range? sorry, by when the time for reanimation is over, wait for next turn to get buff, I bet you won't survive by then.

If the time for RP is changed to "at the end of (or during) the Necron movement, then we could have the buff characters like Cryptek or Overlord with Res Orb to move into range to rescue those severely depleted units.

As of now if the Necron player want to buff and ultilize their special rules (RP and MWBD), they need to form a gaint blob around their Overlord and Cryptek any time. More often than not it is hard to keep in this distance of 3" to 6" due to terrains placed on the table so the Necron army will likely become a lumbering unwieldy Phalanx.

DG has their DR built in like necrons have RP. If you delete the DG unit he cant use DR, just like necrons cant use RP.

 p5freak wrote:
DG has their DR built in like necrons have RP. If you delete the DG unit he cant use DR, just like necrons cant use RP.

That's... that's not true dude

 p5freak wrote:
DG has their DR built in like necrons have RP. If you delete the DG unit he cant use DR, just like necrons cant use RP.

Are you just trolling by now?

Deal 10 unsaved wounds to a unit of 10 DG, they get their 10 5+++ rolls

Deal 10 unsaved wounds to a unit of 10 necron warriors, they get 0 RP Rolls.

I can live in a world where i have to pay 1 point for RP on every model. But we have too much overcosted stuff IMO.

Flayed ones 17 pts. Compare them to harlequins
Doom scythe cost more than DE flyer, while having less durability and firepower
Monolith 381 point. Can't move after disembarking. Disembarking on your deploy turn 1... what?

Even DDA that is considered good unit for me is worse than ravager. I would take 3 ravagers over 2 DDA, which cost the same.

Which units are fairly priced /playable in your opinion?

I start with my summary :

Good : Destroyers, Vault
Average : Immortals , Tomb Blades , DDA
Below average : not to sound pessimistic , but everything else feels from overcosted (Annihilation Barge) to absurdly overcosted (Mono/Scythes)

In the age of Guard/Space Elves/Nids i feel like we are on the bottom end of things , not the worst but certainly not at the top of stuff

Slashy McTalons wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
DG has their DR built in like necrons have RP. If you delete the DG unit he cant use DR, just like necrons cant use RP.

That's... that's not true dude

It is true. When the unit is wiped from the battlefield he cant use DR anymore.

torblind wrote:

Deal 10 unsaved wounds to a unit of 10 DG, they get their 10 5+++ rolls

Deal 10 unsaved wounds to a unit of 10 necron warriors, they get 0 RP Rolls.

Yes. If one DG model remains he has 1 DR. If one necron models remains you have 9 RP.

Biasn wrote:
Which units are fairly priced /playable in your opinion?

I start with my summary :

Good : Destroyers, Vault
Average : Immortals , Tomb Blades , DDA
Below average : not to sound pessimistic , but everything else feels from overcosted (Annihilation Barge) to absurdly overcosted (Mono/Scythes)

In the age of Guard/Space Elves/Nids i feel like we are on the bottom end of things , not the worst but certainly not at the top of stuff

The very first post in this thread has a list which units are good, and which are not.

And you are exactly agreeing with all the statements of the first post?

Biasn wrote:
And you are exactly agreeing with all the statements of the first post?

I agree with most of it. To me the best units are wraiths, destroyers, DDAs, tesla immortals, scarabs, crypteks, overlords. Followed by destroyer lord, command barge, gauss tomb blades.

 p5freak wrote:

Slashy McTalons wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
DG has their DR built in like necrons have RP. If you delete the DG unit he cant use DR, just like necrons cant use RP.

That's... that's not true dude

It is true. When the unit is wiped from the battlefield he cant use DR anymore.

That's completely missing the point. If the unit is wiped in one go you do get to roll for DR, but you don't get to roll for RP. Hence, they do not function the same, and RP can be bypassed completely whereas DR can't. Once the unit is destroyed DR no longer functions... yeah, so what? What does that have to do with anything?

 p5freak wrote:

torblind wrote:

Deal 10 unsaved wounds to a unit of 10 DG, they get their 10 5+++ rolls

Deal 10 unsaved wounds to a unit of 10 necron warriors, they get 0 RP Rolls.

Yes. If one DG model remains he has 1 DR. If one necron models remains you have 9 RP.
.

You're trying to twist it to make the necrons sound like they got a better deal here, by omitting the fact that the DG models already got to make their 9 DR saves, when they suffered the wounds. DG always get to roll for DR, wheras RP can be bypassed completely. That's the point.

I was more pointing at the playability of units in comparisson to say like good codice (Guard/Drukhari etc). Internally the summary might be correct.

 p5freak wrote:

Slashy McTalons wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
DG has their DR built in like necrons have RP. If you delete the DG unit he cant use DR, just like necrons cant use RP.

That's... that's not true dude

It is true. When the unit is wiped from the battlefield he cant use DR anymore.

torblind wrote:

Deal 10 unsaved wounds to a unit of 10 DG, they get their 10 5+++ rolls

Deal 10 unsaved wounds to a unit of 10 necron warriors, they get 0 RP Rolls.

Yes. If one DG model remains he has 1 DR. If one necron models remains you have 9 RP.

Biasn wrote:
Which units are fairly priced /playable in your opinion?

I start with my summary :

Good : Destroyers, Vault
Average : Immortals , Tomb Blades , DDA
Below average : not to sound pessimistic , but everything else feels from overcosted (Annihilation Barge) to absurdly overcosted (Mono/Scythes)

In the age of Guard/Space Elves/Nids i feel like we are on the bottom end of things , not the worst but certainly not at the top of stuff

The very first post in this thread has a list which units are good, and which are not.

You are missing the point though. Because the DG get they're 5+++ after every wound suffered. This means they get the save immediately. Reanimation is only done at the start of the necron player turn and it can only be activated if at least1 model survives. If the entire unit is wiped then they do not get the rule at all. This is why the fact that it is built in makes reanimation worse and easier to negate at higher points costs games.

Let me put it this way:

Let's compare Plague Marines to Immortals. They're both being shot with an Assault Cannon (S6 AP-1 D1) hitting on 3s.

It takes (10*2*(3/2)*(3/2)) 45 shots to kill the Immortals.
It takes (10*(3/2)*2*(3/2)*(3/2)) 67.5 shots to kill the Plague Marines.

If you fire 45 shots into the Immortals, they are wiped and cannot Reanimate.
If you fire 45 shots into the Plague Marines, there are around 3 left standing.

In a 500 point list, you'll struggle to field 45 Assault Cannon shots.
In a 1k list, it's easier.
In a 2k list, it's even easier.

Does that make sense?

Ok, makes sense.

Biasn wrote:
Which units are fairly priced /playable in your opinion?

I start with my summary :

Good : Destroyers, Vault
Average : Immortals , Tomb Blades , DDA
Below average : not to sound pessimistic , but everything else feels from overcosted (Annihilation Barge) to absurdly overcosted (Mono/Scythes)

In the age of Guard/Space Elves/Nids i feel like we are on the bottom end of things , not the worst but certainly not at the top of stuff

I agree with this more or less although I'd say Tomb Blades are appropriately costed roughly, if only because in my opinion they're the best unit in the codex (yes, that includes destroyers)

Immortals are kind of a tricky one because I'd say Tesla Immortals are almost priced appropriately; the issue is more that Gauss is worthless on them and either needs to be reduced in points or buffed in some fashion (range increase perhaps?)

I think some people might be missing the point on RP at higher points level, yes at 1000 point massed bricks of warriors are a good deal but when you go higher in points your whole army comp ends to change. Bare in mind 20 warriors weigh in at 260 points, a fair investment at low points due to their durability thanks to RP.

At over 1,000 points though if you use just warrior bricks to fill out the mandatory slots for a battalion that's 780 points even at 2k that's almost half your points sunk into troops. I don;t think ANY other army even attempts this, why should we?

Instead consider that at 2k points RP makes small units of immortals a right pain to deal with. Nuking 20 warriors to prevent RP kicking in is worth overkill, its not worth risking overkill to wipe 5 immortals, so people tend to undershoot allowing small immortal squads to hang around well past what should have been their expiry.

I mean by all means correct me if i'm wrong anyone can estimate the maths in shots required to wipe 5 immortals, but if your dice roll even slightly under that 1 surviving immortal could be 5 next turn. At 1 point per model for the RP rule, if it brings back a single immortal it has paid for itself.

I'm starting to think our infantry isn't really worth taking. Tomb blades are just so much better. For the same cost as two immortals we get a unit that is quick like a bunny, more damaging due to their ability to use gauss and mephrit without the risk of getting stuck in combat, and durable enough to regularly get the benefit of RP that our troops have to pay for but hardly ever get to use. The fact that we can pay little more to give them invulnerable saves just feels like gravy.

It costs a couple CP but I'm starting to think it might be worth it. Am I missing something here? Well, other than how tedious putting 2-3 units of tomb blades together is?

Edit
never mind about costing CP. Just fooled around on battlescribe and managed to get all the essentials (3XDDA, 1X6Destroyers) two full squads of TB and a batalion just fine. Min squads of immortals but I got my CP and the army doesn't look like a trainwreck. Could go down to two DDA and get some scarabs or wraiths in there. Dunno if I would need that though. TB don't really need a screen and the immortals could probably be made to serve that purpose well enough for the DDA. Might consider a Nightbringer though. He could run up behind the TB...

Yeah I'd say Tomb Blades are one of the least fun models to out together for the army after Triarch Stalkers. Holy hell those two were a pain.

I'd think long and hard before giving up 10 Tesla immortals with MWBD for GEQ clearing (and genestealers)

I've stopped using troops and battallions almost entirely. The biggest misconception and poisonous idea among Necron players right now is that we need big blocks of infantry for RP and that we are a CP hungry army. We are not. My 1.5-2k point lists are just outrider and spearhead detachments. My only cp usage is on destroyers and the odd re-roll. Since I made this change and started to play the army like this my winrate has shot up and I'm even able to fight more evenly with stronger, more competitive armies and certain units which before were absolute pains to deal with (daemon princes, flyrants etc) are now much easier to deal with. By not taking battallions or troops you stop yourself from paying too many points for substandard HQ units and troops units and can focus on the units in the codex that can actually do things.

Bosskelot wrote:
I've stopped using troops and battallions almost entirely. The biggest misconception and poisonous idea among Necron players right now is that we need big blocks of infantry for RP and that we are a CP hungry army. We are not. My 1.5-2k point lists are just outrider and spearhead detachments. My only cp usage is on destroyers and the odd re-roll. Since I made this change and started to play the army like this my winrate has shot up and I'm even able to fight more evenly with stronger, more competitive armies and certain units which before were absolute pains to deal with (daemon princes, flyrants etc) are now much easier to deal with. By not taking battallions or troops you stop yourself from paying too many points for substandard HQ units and troops units and can focus on the units in the codex that can actually do things.

I think you're right. Fooled around some more and got a list with a bunch of wraiths, a few scarabs, and a Nightbringer inside two outriders. Had to take some particle beamers on some of my TB but it looked like a lot meaner list and they can be the first casualties anyway. Only 5 CP though. But if I'm just using that for destroyers like you say that could be enough. Can't wait to try out some variations on this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah I'd say Tomb Blades are one of the least fun models to out together for the army after Triarch Stalkers. Holy hell those two were a pain.

Good god yes. I love the army but we get some of the hardest models to build and paint. DDA are probably my least favorite so far. And cockpits are everywhere. Hell, that's all a TB is XD

Bosskelot wrote:
I've stopped using troops and battallions almost entirely. The biggest misconception and poisonous idea among Necron players right now is that we need big blocks of infantry for RP and that we are a CP hungry army. We are not. My 1.5-2k point lists are just outrider and spearhead detachments.

I agree with you. The last game I played, my friend used my Necrons, and someone commented of the report that his list 'sucked' cos he didn't take big max size blocks of troops to maximise RP. Now it's true wasn't a great list anyway cos we played a big game and he had to pad it out, but I took issue with the idea that Crons should think about RP at all really. I see it as 'throwing good money after bad'. RP is already crappy so doubling down and buying meh troops to try and make it work just seems illogical. Forget RP and if you ever get to make a roll, look at it as a free bonus.

I do like the idea of a cloaktek following 6 Wraiths and then using the 2CP strat to res them on a 4+ if they get whittled down, though.

Merkabah wrote:

Bosskelot wrote:
I've stopped using troops and battallions almost entirely. The biggest misconception and poisonous idea among Necron players right now is that we need big blocks of infantry for RP and that we are a CP hungry army. We are not. My 1.5-2k point lists are just outrider and spearhead detachments. My only cp usage is on destroyers and the odd re-roll. Since I made this change and started to play the army like this my winrate has shot up and I'm even able to fight more evenly with stronger, more competitive armies and certain units which before were absolute pains to deal with (daemon princes, flyrants etc) are now much easier to deal with. By not taking battallions or troops you stop yourself from paying too many points for substandard HQ units and troops units and can focus on the units in the codex that can actually do things.

I think you're right. Fooled around some more and got a list with a bunch of wraiths, a few scarabs, and a Nightbringer inside two outriders. Had to take some particle beamers on some of my TB but it looked like a lot meaner list and they can be the first casualties anyway. Only 5 CP though. But if I'm just using that for destroyers like you say that could be enough. Can't wait to try out some variations on this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah I'd say Tomb Blades are one of the least fun models to out together for the army after Triarch Stalkers. Holy hell those two were a pain.

Good god yes. I love the army but we get some of the hardest models to build and paint. DDA are probably my least favorite so far. And cockpits are everywhere. Hell, that's all a TB is XD

The thing is that I felt a sense of accomplishment after the Arks because it was awesome seeing it finally coming together as little fun as I had with the Arrays. Tomb Blades just aren't giving that feeling and Stalkers are just dumb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slashy McTalons wrote:

Bosskelot wrote:
I've stopped using troops and battallions almost entirely. The biggest misconception and poisonous idea among Necron players right now is that we need big blocks of infantry for RP and that we are a CP hungry army. We are not. My 1.5-2k point lists are just outrider and spearhead detachments.

I agree with you. The last game I played, my friend used my Necrons, and someone commented of the report that his list 'sucked' cos he didn't take big max size blocks of troops to maximise RP. Now it's true wasn't a great list anyway cos we played a big game and he had to pad it out, but I took issue with the idea that Crons should think about RP at all really. I see it as 'throwing good money after bad'. RP is already crappy so doubling down and buying meh troops to try and make it work just seems illogical. Forget RP and if you ever get to make a roll, look at it as a free bonus.

I do like the idea of a cloaktek following 6 Wraiths and then using the 2CP strat to res them on a 4+ if they get whittled down, though.

I think a single Battalion doesnt hurt as long as you're running the same Tomb Worlds, as it isn't like Immortals are the worst troop tax out there. I do agree though that a lack of CP hasn't really gotten to me though. Usually I'm in 9ish CP and then regenerating them with Hyperlogical, as much as I might want to use a different Warlord trait.