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The destructor should be 2 damage (it is an autocannon equivalent), but -1 ap doesn't feel right on tesla. I don't think that weapon type has ever had an AP value, even in 5th.

Points changes, from our battlescibe catalog author, as he updated the file.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The destructor should be 2 damage (it is an autocannon equivalent), but -1 ap doesn't feel right on tesla. I don't think that weapon type has ever had an AP value, even in 5th.

Well then at least make it S8, S7 is another hole you don't want to be in if other weapon stats already don't favor you. (Improves against T4 and T8 both)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The destructor should be 2 damage (it is an autocannon equivalent), but -1 ap doesn't feel right on tesla. I don't think that weapon type has ever had an AP value, even in 5th.

For the record, the Tesla C'Tan power in 7th had AP.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The destructor should be 2 damage (it is an autocannon equivalent), but -1 ap doesn't feel right on tesla. I don't think that weapon type has ever had an AP value, even in 5th.

Vehicles didn't have armour saves in 5th ed, and one shot from a sufficient str weapon was often enough to blow them up. Once again though it's not about what the weapon was, it's about what we need it to be. Ap -1 is the bare minimum we need on an anti-vehicle weapon, and would make it the lowest AP weapon (tied with the autocannon) that is in general use for hunting vehicles. It would still be a tesla weapon, it would still get boned by a -1 to hit, and it would still rely on volume of shots to get damage through. If anything it brings it much closer into line with how they were used in 5th ed,

 axisofentropy wrote:
Points changes, from our battlescibe catalog author, as he updated the file.

Strange, my battlescribe hasn't been updated with these changes yet.

 p5freak wrote:
So, these are the significant point drops rvd1ofakind promised I was right not to believe him Some nice point reductions, could be better, though.

Some of those are pretty significant and he did correctly get prices for some stuff correct (I do recall him giving the Loyalist Scum Terminator price a while back)

Doctoralex wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
Points changes, from our battlescibe catalog author, as he updated the file.

Strange, my battlescribe hasn't been updated with these changes yet.

lol it's not published yet chill. Probably some time next week.

Anyone dissatisfied with these changes should quit the faction now. It will be a year before you see anything change, and this was the best expectable outcome.

So parts of the datasheets were leaked. One page is dedicated to horrors, another is dedicated to intercessors and fiends. I don't see how we could fit in the other 2 pages.

 MoonlightSonata wrote:
Here

No way. Who sacrificed their firstborn to the chaos gods? Screw the Vault, this is amazing. So much more than I had hoped for, ya'll noobs if you can't work with this. The changes seem to have been decided upon by a toddler at random, but I think we got a pretty good result from this if you're ignoring Vault lists. Why might you ignore Vault lists? Because they're dead, forget about them move on to slightly less green pastures. I got the minimum change on the Monolith I asked for so that's very nice, time to test it out some more, my gut instinct is that it's still trash.

Annihilation Barge -22-23%: Still worse than Tomb Blades in most circumstances, better against Lasguns, but where you find Lasguns you find other guns as well.

Canoptek Tomb Sentinel -19%: Very fair. If you need more AV than 3 DDAs I might consider one.

Canoptek Tomb Stalker -21%: Still quite bad. Slightly better than Flayed Ones.

Canoptek Wraiths -12%: Amazing again, I felt like they were merely good with the Codex while they were amazing in the index. Sadly all the options except for the naked ones are still much worse.

Catacomb Command Barge -7-10%: Pretty good, I still prefer Overlords for my MWBD needs.

Deathmarks -11%: Still not good enough.

Doom Scythe -27%: It got so much better, still not viable.

Doomsday Ark -17%: It was already good lol. What even is this, 3 in every list.

Gauss Pylon -14%: it's very good, especially against Knights, not mandatory like it was in the index though.

Ghost Ark -9%: still a borderline must-have in lists featuring 20+ Warriors. Taking two or three Ghost Arks isn't a bad idea in lists with 40+ Warriors.

Immortals -12%: I think 30 Tesla Immortals are going to become a mainstay.

Lord -7-11%: must-have in lists with 400+ pts of troops. About as good as Crypteks now, I wouldn't say one or the other is stronger except on a case by case basis.

Lychguard -7-18%: the shields are no longer a complete joke. I still prefer the warscythes if I'm taking a single unit and lopping it at an enemy with some kind of teleport ability. But for really big groups or if you're using them to block sniper shots the shields are about as good. Still an overall bad choice that has to be made to work with support units.

Monolith -16%: Bad, but not terrible. The Monolith was the worst unit in the Codex and when good choices get bigger buffs than the Monolith, it's tough.

Necron Warriors -11%: better compared to competitive units which got nerfed or stayed the same, but they remain useless against Knights which is very, very bad with the lack of nerfs to Knights. You could possibly build a strong list around them if you were expecting few Knights or if you had a list that is otherwise extremely well-equipped to deal with Knights, triple Pylon anyone?

Night Scythe -19%: Pretty good against Orks, still meh overall.

Night Shroud -16%: Still terrible.

Sentry Pylon -16-22%: Good, but I don't think they are tournament viable, best with Sautekh using the deep striking heat cannon or Nihilakh with the Gauss Exterminator deploying on the field.

Obelisk -11%: Still bad, less of a cost if you want to be ready to punch a DE player in the gak.

Overlord -0-2%: still a solid choice, with Immortals being better he's gotten better since that's what he's best at supporting. I don't think I can justify taking a hyperphase sword any longer now that the warscythe is just 6 pts away, the voidscythe upgrade is still solid tech against Knights and the voidblade remains the best choice against groups of enemies, but the warscythe is probably going to be my go-to rather than the hyperphase sword.

Tesseract Ark -23-25%: much better but I still don't think it's viable.

Tesseract Vault +14%: it's fair, which is no fair when Knights stay unfair. It's still a very versatile unit and fairly resistant to much shooting.

Tomb Blades -0-12%: I feel sorry for you if you built yours with particle beamers, they're now an invalid choice. Tomb Blades are incredibly strong now, if it weren't for Lootas I'd say they'd be mainstay in every list, but Lootas are so damn good against them, Disintegrator Cannons and Avenger Gatling Cannons and Knight stomps will also do a number on them. The popular damage types that are currently in the game are holding them back, but they'll be brutal in many match-ups. If the meta shifts they'll be OP.

Transcendent C'tan -11%: just short of good enough.

Triarch Praetorians -19%: decent, but not viable.

Triarch Stalker -33-34%: that's a hilariously big drop for a unit that was just shy of being good enough. I think one is mandatory if you're bringing 3 DDAs... So one is mandatory. I'd always go Twin-HGC on the first one, but I might switch it up for any additional ones if I were to take more than one, I think all options have their place, but the first one just needs that HGC for the range so that you can pick between more targets. The only lists where it remains not good enough is Destroyer heavy lists and Nihilakh dynasty lists, but otherwise a very solid pick.

C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer -14%: really, really good, especially with the buff to Wraiths.

Illuminor Szeras -16%: I still wouldn't take him in an army with a single dynasty, but he was already often the best choice in multi-dynasty armies, now even more so.

Imotekh the Stormlord -20%: not an auto-include, but very good.

Nemesor Zahndrekh -17%: still only good with Vargard Obyron. But is now actually good with Obyron. The Zahndrekh Deceiver bomb still isn't OP, but not a waste of points neccessarily.

Toholk the Blinded -24%: I think he's as good a choice as a Cryptek in the right list now.

Trazyn the Infinite -10%: his WL trait still sucks and his Dynasty is pretty bad in the first place, no reason not just to take a regular Overlord.

Vargard Obyron -11%: I think Vargard Obyron and Zahndrekh will find more of a home in some kind of shooty infantry list rather than trying to fling the still overpriced Lychguard at the enemy.

My favourite army, Anrakyr Szeras Balance got 216 pts cheaper, now what to remove to put in 3 DDAs???

Overall I'd say GW did a piss poor job with balancing Necrons between all the wrong moves they made and all the right moves they failed to make, it's a total farce. But I can definitely work with it. I think Frontline Gaming should just come out and fix this gak in 6 months after they finish collecting data from their tournaments and then stop relying on GW to balance things, release an update every 3 months with data that is one month old instead of every 12 months with data that is 6 months old. Much of this seems to be a FW cash-grab, but maybe that's a bit too negative, I'm sure people who've spent a lot of money on FW units feel like they deserve to have their units be at least as good as the codex ones.

I think I'm going to be replacing the Vault in several of my lists with a Gauss Pylon, I'm very happy we still have an effective <500 pt LoW for triple LoW lists, I may also experiment more with the Obelisk since it's going to be less of a target than my Seraptek Heavy Constructs in my double Construct list(s).

 Grimgold wrote:
I honestly feel like our flyer slots would be better spent on night scythes. With lychguard w/ scythes at 28 points a pop, and a reasonable delivery method, they could ruin a knights day on a charge, just add disruption fields for 1 cp to bring them to str 8.

If you go first, you still couldn't emergency beam them turn 1 if he downs all your flyers, right? So you what.. need to bring three, or go second?

torblind wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
I honestly feel like our flyer slots would be better spent on night scythes. With lychguard w/ scythes at 28 points a pop, and a reasonable delivery method, they could ruin a knights day on a charge, just add disruption fields for 1 cp to bring them to str 8.

If you go first, you still couldn't emergency beam them turn 1 if he downs all your flyers, right? So you what.. need to bring three, or go second?

Sadly, going second does not change anything since the Big FAQ 2, you can't arrive round one period :
"Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round."

So no Emergency Beam turn 1 whether you start or not.

Nightscythe are still a gamble ...

You could beam them in, it counts as disembarking from a transport, per the big fall FAQ, so it could even be done if you get first turn and the flyer dies in your opponents deployment zone.The trick though is the stratagem only works if it's your last night scythe or monolith, so if you brought two of them and two units in TWD, and lost both in the same turn, you'd have to use the enhanced invasion beam stratagem in addition to the emergency invasion beam.

Necron FAQ wrote:Change the penultimate sentence of this ability to read:
‘Set up the unit so that it is wholly within 3" of this
model and more than 1" from any enemy models;
the unit that has just been set up counts as having
disembarked from a transport for all rules purposes.’

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shaelinith wrote:


Sadly, going second does not change anything since the Big FAQ 2, you can't arrive round one period :
"Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round."

So no Emergency Beam turn 1 whether you start or not.

Nightscythe are still a gamble ...

You can exit a transport on turn 1, no matter where it is. I can see the confusion though, they are not arriving as reinforcements, they are disembarking from a transport, which means it's the same thing as if you flew up a stormraven into your opponents territory turn one and it got blown up. Under the old rules were they were deep striking that would be correct, but they went out of their way to not completely dick us.

RAW, it doesn't count as disembarking from a transport until AFTER they've been set up. I'll requote with emphasis: "the unit that HAS JUST BEEN SET UP counts as having disembarked".

As such, I would argue that they still count as "arriving on the battle mid-game as reinforcements" until such a time as the unit has been set up. And considering the rule prevents them from being set up in the first place... SOL.

Edit: I would only attempt to argue this though if it were a very competitive game, and even then would happily defer to a TO's rule decision otherwise, because it's more fun to allow it in casual games anyhow.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll wrote:
RAW, it doesn't count as disembarking from a transport until AFTER they've been set up. I'll requote with emphasis: "the unit that HAS JUST BEEN SET UP counts as having disembarked".

As such, I would argue that they still count as "arriving on the battle mid-game as reinforcements" until such a time as the unit has been set up. And considering the rule prevents them from being set up in the first place... SOL.

Edit: I would only attempt to argue this though if it were a very competitive game, and even then would happily defer to a TO's rule decision otherwise, because it's more fun to allow it in casual games anyhow.

I'd say having disembarked for all rule purposes would cover anyone pedantic enough to try an order of operations switcharoo, because the intent of the rule is so clear. Also In all cases you don't count as having disembarked until after you have setup, because until you are setup you are not disembarked.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll wrote:
RAW, it doesn't count as disembarking from a transport until AFTER they've been set up. I'll requote with emphasis: "the unit that HAS JUST BEEN SET UP counts as having disembarked".

As such, I would argue that they still count as "arriving on the battle mid-game as reinforcements" until such a time as the unit has been set up. And considering the rule prevents them from being set up in the first place... SOL.

Edit: I would only attempt to argue this though if it were a very competitive game, and even then would happily defer to a TO's rule decision otherwise, because it's more fun to allow it in casual games anyhow.

Yeah it's pretty obvious what the intent was, otherwise there was zero change in the rules after the new wording. Try and call someone on it if you like, but you're as likely to get smacked down for rules sharking as anything else.

On topic again, I'm wondering if the drops for Nightsycthes and Lychguard make them somewhat usable (in semi-competitive settings, obviously we're still boned at the top tables). The monolith got a drop, but honestly it wasn't enough imo. It needed to drop a cool 100 to be considered sadly. At the very least bringing a unit of Lychguard to veil up in someone's face is a bit more tempting.

The Sentry Pylon drop saves me 270 and makes taking 9 a thing!

Run Nihilakh, sit and shoot, Scarabs as screen, getting rebuilt by Spyders, each set of 3 Pylons gets 2 Spyders for repair, with the cloakteks doing emergency healing, or just healing themselves.

2x Cloaktek
3x (3 Sentry Pylons with Heat Cannon)
3x (2 Spyders with Fabricator Claws)
2x 4 Scarabs
Total: 1999

IanVanCheese wrote:

Yeah it's pretty obvious what the intent was, otherwise there was zero change in the rules after the new wording. Try and call someone on it if you like, but you're as likely to get smacked down for rules sharking as anything else.

On topic again, I'm wondering if the drops for Nightsycthes and Lychguard make them somewhat usable (in semi-competitive settings, obviously we're still boned at the top tables). The monolith got a drop, but honestly it wasn't enough imo. It needed to drop a cool 100 to be considered sadly. At the very least bringing a unit of Lychguard to veil up in someone's face is a bit more tempting.

Why not two units of lychguard, a sword and board to be used with veil, and scythe guard in a night scythe to take out heavy vehicles. An interesting idea is bring a cryptek with the scythe guard, since you can drop them both off at the same time, and the cryptek will give them better reanimate and a 5++ vs shooting. Or you could bring a lord for that sweet reroll ones to wound, and another scythe with a few attacks. To be fair flyer deployed fatties isn't great for SM, but since we are looking for ways to be less dependent on destroyers it's not a terrible way to go for us since the night scythe is a fair bit cheaper than the space marine options. For lulz you could always do a 20 man blob flayed ones, with immotek to give them rerolls to hit, though I think that would be more meme than beef.

It might be that shooty crons go the way of the old ones, and instead the new necron meta could revolve around getting our CC units into the fight untouched via novel ways like viel and night scythe, backed up by fast units like wraiths and C'Tan. I'd start list crafting but I'm lazy, and want to wait for battlescribe to be updated. Not that I'm trying to rush anyone, since the volunteers who update battlescribe put in a lot of work for our enjoyment, and the only time they hear from us is when we are whining about how long it takes or complaining when they screw up. So do 40k a favor and thank your battle scribes,

Okay, so if Warscythe Lychguard are supposed to be to take against Knights, how are people planning on getting them into combat now?
Veil? (9" charge?)
Night Scythe? (turn 3 charge?)
Monolith? (turn ? charge?)
... walking? (turn 3 charge? if they actually even manage to reach it?)

 skoffs wrote:
Okay, so if Warscythe Lychguard are supposed to be to take against Knights, how are people planning on getting them into combat now?
Veil? (9" charge?)
Night Scythe? (turn 3 charge?)
Monolith? (turn ? charge?)
... walking? (turn 3 charge? if they actually even manage to reach it?)

Why would night scythe be turn 3? zoom it across the board turn 1, turn 2, 3" disembark + 5" move + charge. Veil is turn 2 for a risky charge (or turn one for a really risky charge), but by that point your faster foot units like wraiths and C'Tan have caught up. Another idea is to bring the nemesor in the night scythe along with the lychguard, and obyron in your deployment zone with another unit of lychguard, and then you'll have a gak load of charging lychguard on turn two, backed up by whatever wraiths, scarabs or C'Tan make it across the board. I'm dubious it will be the end all be all, but if the points are right and we can bring enough elite melee to give us a chance against gunline. Maybe you go all in on it, and have the deceiver GI some additional units to mid field, as well as some translocation crypt for units like destroyers and we could be a decent beta strike. Up to this point the challenge with deceiver bomb (and strategies like it) has been the lack of efficiency and how bad tomb world deploy sucked, but TWD was mostly fixed in the big fall FAQ, and with the points drops on all of the units involved, it might be worth taking another look at. Once again though I haven't built any specific lists, getting ready for a tournament tomorrow, so don't have the time to do it by hand.

Amazing we got a price reduction.. oh no wait.. here are the eldar reductions..




Now as I'm aware eldar didn't need changing nor did any of the other armies but grey knights yet they all seem to be down on points? So sorry to burst all of our bubbles but like my source said... you will not like what they have done.

Character across the board got cost reductions, and aside from that the only wow that's a big drop is for the wraith knight which was kinda being punished for how good it was in the prior edition. The other changes were in line with what all armies received, so I'm not overly impressed. Do you think that the changes made any of the units in green auto-include or spammable? When I look at the green I mostly see second string units adjusted down in an attempt to make them more attractive.

Sn33R wrote:
]


Now as I'm aware eldar didn't need changing nor did any of the other armies but grey knights yet they all seem to be down on points? So sorry to burst all of our bubbles but like my source said... you will not like what they have done.

Actually their internal balance wasn't that hot. Some good units yes but plenty units nobody bothers to take either.

Don't be too worried about the Eldar changes, every unit that got buffed is a unit people didn't use and some of the best Eldar units got nerfed (thinking Shining Spears and Wave Serpents here).

Yeah, and one of our problems was anti armor. With the drop in points for a lot of our anti armor units. Our ability to handle armor just got a heck of a lot easier now. Handling infantry or elite infantry was never a problem for Necrons.

And yes, they can still delete a whole unit to get around RP. But if you are facing 3 doom scythes, 3 doomsday arks, destroyers, then how much shooting do you really have to devote to wiping out an entire infantry unit?

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Don't be too worried about the Eldar changes, every unit that got buffed is a unit people didn't use and some of the best Eldar units got nerfed (thinking Shining Spears and Wave Serpents here).

Though other price drops for weapons mean the eldar armies don't get much of price hike even if used units like shining spears. However when other armies(minus orks) got point drops and the #1 eldar list stayed almost same relatively that was nerf.

But no point complaining wraith knight got price drop for example as it's stil' junk. Don't remember seeing much striking scorpions around either and last time i saw wraithlord might have been in 4th ed

Wonder how my necron collection changed with this one. Should get around those one day. Orks are fine for now so just need to get titans settled and could finally get around to necrons

As I said...Those point drops just mean more spam for Necrons...In addition to your 2x 6Destroyers (now with a HDestroyer if you so wish) you can take 2-3DDAs AND a battalion.

The positive thing I see is the additional Battalion one can take now!

If Knights remain in the meta I guess a Pylon will be a auto include!
The point drop on warriors us a joke especially since Immortals got a 2points drop making them sooooo much better than before.

Looks like you didnt notice that 8th is all about spam and hordes. 100+ pink horrors, 100+ cultists, 100+ gaunts... Elite armys are in a bad spot.

 p5freak wrote:
Looks like you didnt notice that 8th is all about spam and hordes. 100+ pink horrors, 100+ cultists, 100+ gaunts... Elite armys are in a bad spot.

This or that plus a Knight.

I proposed this list as Knights were the thing I struggled the most with. Sadly I dont think Necrons can take a good All Comers list?

Immortals got a nice buff but still die in an instant.

8th edition is just not meant for elite armies

 p5freak wrote:
Looks like you didnt notice that 8th is all about spam and hordes. 100+ pink horrors, 100+ cultists, 100+ gaunts... Elite armys are in a bad spot.

Especially with battalions granting 5 CP. Every time I build a soup list with a patrol or spearhead or something I always stop and think to myself, "you know what, if I just rearranged some stuff here and there I could fit another battalion into this..."

Factions with access to efficient troops are king. Welcome to 8th Edition Battalionhammer.