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Facisminthe41m wrote:
Looks like GW would like our feedback again on April 15th. I think it would be great if we could get them to look at some of the changes to Necrons that have been discussed in this thread.

What would be the top three things you'd like to see changed to the army?

Some way of using reanimation protocols on a wiped unit, as a Strat/unit ability/wargear/something. Maybe do a two for one and repurpose enhanced reanimation protocols with being able to res from a fully wiped unit.

Mixed Lychguard weapons.

Final clarification on MWBD + Veil to confirm or overrule the LVO judges.

Cleaning up the wording on Invasion Beams, Emergency Invasion Beams, and Enhanced Invasion Beams.Even if the intent is that you can't use Enhanced Invasion Beams with Emergency Invasion Beams, they should make that a little more clearer or create an 'INVASION BEAM' keyword or something.

1. Fix RP and clarify any rules inconsistencies

2. Bring our terrible units (Spyder, Monolith, Flayed Ones, Obelisk, Destroyer Lord) up to scratch or hugely down in points

3. Bring back Pariahs as characters

For those asking about the Community Survey Post, it is located over halfway down this page and also includes a prize drawing for participants who can win new sisters of battle units. This is the same survey that gave us plastic sisters of battle, apparently.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/28/breaking-news-dark-power-unleashed/

1) Fix RP. Change it to something new. Allow wiped units to do RP. Just gives us more control over our faction rule (right know it can just be straight out denied by the opponent without us being able to do anything).

2) Change some buffs auras etc. Why only 3“ auras? Why restrictions like „reroll 1s for INFANTRY ONLY“, why does Imothek buff Flayed Ones? Destroyer Lord?? Why are all of our dynasties very niche buffs, benefiting only small/single units in our codex?

3) Fix our teleportation! Why Deciever more than 12“ away and NO charge afterwards? Why Monolith 12“ away and no immediate disembarking of units? Is it actually disembarking or are our units coming from reserve meaning not before turn 2?

3.5) Have a look at some (weapons) profiles and point costs. We habe tons of S5/6 weapons but almost no D2/3 S7/8

Edit: But it all starts 15. April? Does GW provide some „special“ survey email or how is this survey supposed to work?

barontuman wrote:

5) Improve Toughness and Save of all non-flyer Necron vehicles by 1 (especially the monolith).
6) Change Amalgamated Targeting data to work with 2 or 3 Doom Scythes, much like a Fire Prism.
7) Increase the strength and attacks of the Destroyer Lord, or make his buff to destroyers be a re-roll

I think asking for stat changes to every single vehicle is a little ridiculous, DDAs are already extremely good, I'd also prefer to prioritize a cost reduction for the Monolith compared to a Toughness change and then having to wait even further for another points increase in case GW waits and sees if a T change is enough.

Amalgamated Targeting works just like the Vindicator Stratagems for Marines, should those be changed as well? Is it really that important, you might not be able to use the Strat if you lose one of your D-Scythes, but the Strat isn't that strong in the first place so losing access matters relatively little in most games outside of going second against a castle, but most castles will be able to shoot down 2 D-Scythes turn 1 anyway, so it matters an extremely small amount.

The Destroyer Lord is already one of our better units, he is already sharing first place our HQ with the most attacks, a buff to all our aura abilities would be rather fair to bring our HQs more in line with those of other armies and the D-Lord could be included in that.

1) Make Emergency Invasion Beams an exception to the rules for reinforcements not being able to come in before turn 2 in matched play.

2) Change Invasion Beams to be reinforcements at the end of the Movement phase and Eternity Gate to end of the Movement phase even if the Monolith plopped down that same turn. No transport bullcrap. Or just change it to work entirely like transports, putting multiple units on the Tomb World is suicidal anyways, our "transports" would be much better as actual transports. Units should basically never be destroyed before setting up on the table for Necrons.

3) Write down all our abilities that go away when a unit is removed from the table and say whether going into a transport counts as well. Really just remove this BS, it wasn't in the rules before they made that gak FAQ (who asked this question, no one? Because nobody I ever played thought it was the case before they released the FAQ, it was an Errata in FAQ's clothing and how broadly it should be interpreted also infuriates me) and I'm not sure if I'm going to start playing again if they don't remove it and I definitely won't if they don't write out that the FAQ affects non-Stratagems as well and exactly what abilities are affected by the FAQ.

I guess I'm in the minority, but I think RP is in a good place right now. I think a stratagem to let a unit that died roll RP would be cool, other than that, leave it.

Agree that our aura's need fixing. Lord should affect everything, not just infantry.

Fix our transports.

Monolith 2+ save, or 5+ Inv, or another 50-75 points drop. Points drops for our other, expensive sub-par units.

Spyder getting Character could spice things up. Alongside a cryptek you're now looking at healing a vehicle 2D3 a turn which could make a real difference.

Monolith at T9 would be interesting too. It could arguably be tougher than a modern cheap flimsy AM tank .

just out of interest, what do people think would happen to MWBD if it became an Aura?

6" bubble as it is, and then Immotekh's version being changed to +2, or 9" instead? Leave the CCB's version compltetely untouched, being a case of 12" bubble?

All of our buffs need to be 6" to start with, and we can discuss form there

This is a tactics thread not a wishlist. I think we all know what's wrong with Necrons. Will our issues be fixed ? I don't think so. GW already announced minor changes, whatever that means

 vict0988 wrote:
The Destroyer Lord is already one of our better units

Do you really think so? For its points it's a super average beatstick with un-optimised rules. If it was say, 90 points I might agree with you.

And I don't think the DDA is really good. T6 and 4+ save for a model that big is poor. It only stays alive because we keep them right at the back out of range of most damage 2 weapons and they rarely get targeted. Then gun is also 10 times the size of a lascannon but only +1 STR. Call me old fashioned but I do like rules to be representing models, the Doomsday Cannon could easily be STR 12.

Cynista wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
The Destroyer Lord is already one of our better units

Do you really think so? For its points it's a super average beatstick with un-optimised rules. If it was say, 90 points I might agree with you.

And I don't think the DDA is really good. T6 and 4+ save for a model that big is poor. It only stays alive because we keep them right at the back out of range of most damage 2 weapons and they rarely get targeted. Then gun is also 10 times the size of a lascannon but only +1 STR. Call me old fashioned but I do like rules to be representing models, the Doomsday Cannon could easily be STR 12.

I guess it can be one of our better units still without being particularly good. And you certainly can build something around what he does.

As for the DDC its AP is also part og the picture.. and we have to pick our flights, don't think S12 would give us much.. T6 targets aren't a consistent threat in the meta currently?

But it should have 3+ and perhaps T7, like the Ark.

 p5freak wrote:
This is a tactics thread not a wishlist. I think we all know what's wrong with Necrons. Will our issues be fixed ? I don't think so. GW already announced minor changes, whatever that means

minir changes to necrons specifically or to the game?

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
This is a tactics thread not a wishlist. I think we all know what's wrong with Necrons. Will our issues be fixed ? I don't think so. GW already announced minor changes, whatever that means

minir changes to necrons specifically or to the game?

We're not sure at this point, since the statement was made as a general overview of the changes they're going to be making. But again, Games Workshop do think that Necrons are in a good spot as is, so I wouldn't hold your breath for any larger changes regardless.

torblind wrote:
Spyder getting Character could spice things up. Alongside a cryptek you're now looking at healing a vehicle 2D3 a turn which could make a real difference.

Monolith at T9 would be interesting too. It could arguably be tougher than a modern cheap flimsy AM tank .

Spyder getting Character AND Scarabs getting Troop would be a good thing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
This is a tactics thread not a wishlist. I think we all know what's wrong with Necrons. Will our issues be fixed ? I don't think so. GW already announced minor changes, whatever that means

The recent flood of wish listing in in preparation for the April 15th feedback.

It would be a good thing if every Necron player had at least similar things to say when they open that up.

As I said the other day, with the "updates" caused by the recent codex re-releases maybe this will kick the rules writers in the gut with how much Necrons need to get a little better.

 vict0988 wrote:

The Destroyer Lord is already one of our better units, he is already sharing first place our HQ with the most attacks, a buff to all our aura abilities would be rather fair to bring our HQs more in line with those of other armies and the D-Lord could be included in that.

I disagree that the Destroyer Lord is a one of our better units. I've played him (often 2) the majority of my games and found that he doesn't really have a place in our list.

With his stats and abilities, I see primarily 2 useful roles :
1) Running with Wraiths/Scarabs as an additional damage threat
2) Babysitting destroyers

For #1, the issue is simply the size of his base and his speed. He's incredibly difficult to get into a good position against a skilled opponent. He moves 2" slower than Wraiths, meaning that he won't be keeping up (particularly when paired with the Adaptive Subroutines stratagem). You can give him Implacable Conqueror, but that comes at the opportunity cost of Crimson Haze, or Eternal Madness, and again doesn't really stack with Adaptive Subroutines. I know it seems absurd, but 10" is just too slow.

For #2, destroyers can already use Extermination Protocols with is all around better. Given their relatively short range, the enemy will immediately eliminate the destroyers after their first volley anyway, so you're better off buying another 2 destroyers rather than paying the HQ tax for a Destroyer Lords buff.

Not to mention fluff-wise, a destroyer lord hanging back with a 12" 3 shot gun makes no sense at all: "those few that do favour slaughtering from afar train their deathly beams upon enemies with cold, dispassionate precision. The resultant annihilation - though often spectacular - ..." Where do I sign up for deathly beams with spectacular destruction? All I see is a staff of light.

I would say that any message reading some variation of "fix RP" is going to be forgotten instantly.

My top request would be to change wording on Eternity Gate/Invasion Beams so it happens at the end of the movement phase. Either that or allow the Monolith to use the Eternity Gate immediately after using Death Descending.

barontuman wrote:

I disagree that the Destroyer Lord is a one of our better units. I've played him (often 2) the majority of my games and found that he doesn't really have a place in our list.

With his stats and abilities, I see primarily 2 useful roles :
1) Running with Wraiths/Scarabs as an additional damage threat

He is the only unit in the entire game who can come back twice after being slain. With a voidreaper he can wound anything that isnt a vehicle on 2+. A T8 tyranid monster ? 2+. Mortarion ? Magnus ? 2+. Play a 1 CP stratagem, and your voidreaper dlord is almost guaranteed to make 3 damage with his first attack against a non vehicle unit, because no inv can be used, and its AP-4. He is pretty good for his points.

barontuman wrote:

For #1, the issue is simply the size of his base and his speed. He's incredibly difficult to get into a good position against a skilled opponent. He moves 2" slower than Wraiths, meaning that he won't be keeping up (particularly when paired with the Adaptive Subroutines stratagem). You can give him Implacable Conqueror, but that comes at the opportunity cost of Crimson Haze, or Eternal Madness, and again doesn't really stack with Adaptive Subroutines. I know it seems absurd, but 10" is just too slow.

Looks like you have no idea how to move him around. As nephrekh he can auto advance 16", or he can deepstrike for 1 CP, more than 9" away from enemy models. With the obyzahn combo he can be ghostwalked within 4" of enemy models. The deceiver can GI him more than 12" away anywhere on the battlefield.

I agree that he is useless for babysitting destroyers.

 p5freak wrote:

barontuman wrote:

I disagree that the Destroyer Lord is a one of our better units. I've played him (often 2) the majority of my games and found that he doesn't really have a place in our list.

With his stats and abilities, I see primarily 2 useful roles :
1) Running with Wraiths/Scarabs as an additional damage threat

He is the only unit in the entire game who can come back twice after being slain. With a voidreaper he can wound anything that isnt a vehicle on 2+. A T8 tyranid monster ? 2+. Mortarion ? Magnus ? 2+. Play a 1 CP stratagem, and your voidreaper dlord is almost guaranteed to make 3 damage with his first attack against a non vehicle unit, because no inv can be used, and its AP-4. He is pretty good for his points.

T8 is typically not an issue unless it's a Knight, which comprises the majority of the competitive meta, at which point, he's pretty pathetic.

barontuman wrote:

For #1, the issue is simply the size of his base and his speed. He's incredibly difficult to get into a good position against a skilled opponent. He moves 2" slower than Wraiths, meaning that he won't be keeping up (particularly when paired with the Adaptive Subroutines stratagem). You can give him Implacable Conqueror, but that comes at the opportunity cost of Crimson Haze, or Eternal Madness, and again doesn't really stack with Adaptive Subroutines. I know it seems absurd, but 10" is just too slow.

Looks like you have no idea how to move him around.

Nice insulting assumption. Remember to at least compare him to his own codex, not to mention what's available in other codecii.

As nephrekh he can auto advance 16",

Big deal. Advance 16", when the wraiths have already moved 12" advanced 3, then charged 7 inches (average 20" which can use a CP reroll if necessary) . He still can't charge after that, and can't buff the wraiths as nephrekh anyway, and they will be much less useful than being Novokh. I'd rather take another 2 wraiths with points to spare. 6 WS3 S6 AP-2 D2 vs 4 WS3 S7 AP-4 D2. Typically they will do much more damage, and are more survivable without spending CP.

or he can deepstrike for 1 CP, more than 9" away from enemy models.

So spending our scarce CP, he can then charge chaff units on turn 2? Or maybe being annihilated by Tau overwatch? The wraiths will have already charged and killed/hopped over the chaff units. 2 more wraiths would be better and more survivable.

With the obyzahn combo he can be ghostwalked within 4" of enemy models. The deceiver can GI him more than 12" away anywhere on the battlefield.

Spending how many good points to improve a mediocre/bad unit? I'm not convinced. I ran 2 DLords most of last edition and love the models. After really analyzing how they work on the tabletop, unfortunately, they just aren't work their points.

Soooo...Local group is starting summer escalation. Good excuse to finally get Necrons to playing stage! I have little orks to be painted for the league in spirit of "getting things ready" especially as I just been finishing things. Imperium also more or less done without investing in new models and if I'm going to invest might just as well invest in the start of necron army I have!

So far have the forgebane contents + bunch of necrons I got 2nd handed(more immortals, 3 wraiths, command barge, I think there was that legged walker from elite slot, not sure what else). Also planning to pick up the dominion spearhead from FLGS since they have one. Assuming it doesn't sell in meanwhile...That I will try to get by until august.

League will start with 500 pts, monthly rounds with 300 pts added each round so 500, 800, 1100, 1400, 1700 and finally 2000. First round patrol, then patrol or battallion and then further being added options(note this obviously means no knights etc will be coming my way). First round also max 1 vehicle unit.

How do these steps look roughly?



Biggest ??? I have is with doom scythes but like the models so was tempted to put in some in. Guess just 1 would be option as well.

Can't understand people knocking the DDA. Yeah it could be tougher, yeah it could be less random but for 160 pts it's an absolute steal.

I think you'd way better served starting with

Overlord
10 x Tesla Immortals
Triarch Stalker - Heat Ray
Fill on Guass Tomb Blades (Shieldvanes if you have points for upgrades but not bodies)

Run as Mephrit, you have access to a point-click-mark-unload (basically a mini Methodical Destruction), your 1 vehicle is much less specialised but can do most things, and you have a very good mobile firebase.

Also a decent kite.

I'm not sure how to move upwards from there though. At 800 points I would honestly suggest a Cryptek and 20 Warriors, just because Silver Tide works very well at lower points
This also allows for a transition to a Battalion if you arent against running 2x10

After that though, it depends on your rules, if you have to keep the previous models in your list or not. DDA is mandatory for 1100+ though, and I would consider taking the wraiths at that point as well, or get more Immortals



Something like that maybe

That could also work. Not sure what weapon the stalker I have has though. Need to check(The flipside of buying 2nd handed. Good deal money wise, equipments might not be optimal).

Not sure about rule about previous units! Have to check. Main reason why I try to keep is pure practical. I'm trying to get this 2k in reasonable price(low on budget money) for which helps if I use as much models as I already have rather than buying new ones.

fully agreed, broke-ass student over here

tneva82 wrote:
That could also work. Not sure what weapon the stalker I have has though. Need to check(The flipside of buying 2nd handed. Good deal money wise, equipments might not be optimal).

Not sure about rule about previous units! Have to check. Main reason why I try to keep is pure practical. I'm trying to get this 2k in reasonable price(low on budget money) for which helps if I use as much models as I already have rather than buying new ones.

If you buy new models, get more tomb blades, they are really good. Fast, hard to kill because of 9 models in a unit, T5 W2, -1 to hit, and can reanimate. They can fly, cant be tied up in melee, and can still shoot after falling back.

IanVanCheese wrote:
Can't understand people knocking the DDA. Yeah it could be tougher, yeah it could be less random but for 160 pts it's an absolute steal.

Perhaps it just my local meta, but against competitive players it doesn't have good targets. Things like Land Raiders and our Monoliths which rely on high T and armor are typically left on the shelf. Knights have such a high invulnerable save that Scarabs, Wraiths, and even Tesla Immortals will statistically do much more damage per point than a DDA. The gauss flux arks seem to be a huge added bonus until you realize that it's best sitting in the back corner taking pot shots, otherwise small arms fire will take it down quickly.

It's got a lot of utility, and situationally it can be amazing. Or, it can roll 1 for its number of shots followed by a 1-2 to hit all game long. It all depends on the matchup and the dice, which is what makes me not enamored with it.

barontuman wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
Can't understand people knocking the DDA. Yeah it could be tougher, yeah it could be less random but for 160 pts it's an absolute steal.

Perhaps it just my local meta, but against competitive players it doesn't have good targets. Things like Land Raiders and our Monoliths which rely on high T and armor are typically left on the shelf. Knights have such a high invulnerable save that Scarabs, Wraiths, and even Tesla Immortals will statistically do much more damage per point than a DDA. The gauss flux arks seem to be a huge added bonus until you realize that it's best sitting in the back corner taking pot shots, otherwise small arms fire will take it down quickly.

It's got a lot of utility, and situationally it can be amazing. Or, it can roll 1 for its number of shots followed by a 1-2 to hit all game long. It all depends on the matchup and the dice, which is what makes me not enamored with it.

That's fair. I generally run them with support (Stalker for reroll 1s + play them as Sautekh for Methodical Destruction). 3 DDAs hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s is no joke. Sure inv saves on big targets suck some of the wind out of your sails, but you'll still do big damage to a knight even with average rolls.

If you're lacking good targets, resist the urge to hang back and be aggressive with them. Get those flayers in range.

barontuman wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

barontuman wrote:

I disagree that the Destroyer Lord is a one of our better units. I've played him (often 2) the majority of my games and found that he doesn't really have a place in our list.

With his stats and abilities, I see primarily 2 useful roles :
1) Running with Wraiths/Scarabs as an additional damage threat

He is the only unit in the entire game who can come back twice after being slain. With a voidreaper he can wound anything that isnt a vehicle on 2+. A T8 tyranid monster ? 2+. Mortarion ? Magnus ? 2+. Play a 1 CP stratagem, and your voidreaper dlord is almost guaranteed to make 3 damage with his first attack against a non vehicle unit, because no inv can be used, and its AP-4. He is pretty good for his points.

T8 is typically not an issue unless it's a Knight, which comprises the majority of the competitive meta, at which point, he's pretty pathetic.

barontuman wrote:

For #1, the issue is simply the size of his base and his speed. He's incredibly difficult to get into a good position against a skilled opponent. He moves 2" slower than Wraiths, meaning that he won't be keeping up (particularly when paired with the Adaptive Subroutines stratagem). You can give him Implacable Conqueror, but that comes at the opportunity cost of Crimson Haze, or Eternal Madness, and again doesn't really stack with Adaptive Subroutines. I know it seems absurd, but 10" is just too slow.

Looks like you have no idea how to move him around.

Nice insulting assumption. Remember to at least compare him to his own codex, not to mention what's available in other codecii.

As nephrekh he can auto advance 16",

Big deal. Advance 16", when the wraiths have already moved 12" advanced 3, then charged 7 inches (average 20" which can use a CP reroll if necessary) . He still can't charge after that, and can't buff the wraiths as nephrekh anyway, and they will be much less useful than being Novokh. I'd rather take another 2 wraiths with points to spare. 6 WS3 S6 AP-2 D2 vs 4 WS3 S7 AP-4 D2. Typically they will do much more damage, and are more survivable without spending CP.

or he can deepstrike for 1 CP, more than 9" away from enemy models.

So spending our scarce CP, he can then charge chaff units on turn 2? Or maybe being annihilated by Tau overwatch? The wraiths will have already charged and killed/hopped over the chaff units. 2 more wraiths would be better and more survivable.

With the obyzahn combo he can be ghostwalked within 4" of enemy models. The deceiver can GI him more than 12" away anywhere on the battlefield.

Spending how many good points to improve a mediocre/bad unit? I'm not convinced. I ran 2 DLords most of last edition and love the models. After really analyzing how they work on the tabletop, unfortunately, they just aren't work their points.

What you can do is run your DLord as your Warlord and give the Novokh wraiths exploding 6s, they really love that.

But you risk losing your WL

What you can do is run your DLord as your Warlord and give the Novokh wraiths exploding 6s, they really love that.

But you risk losing your WL

Assuming you could keep up (you can't), and manage to get a full squad of wraith into combat, then on average you'll get 3 additional attacks. Or, you could just take 2 more wraiths, and get 6 additional attacks plus some points back.

Has anyone considered running a crimson haze dlord with 3x9 novokh scarabs ? That's 108 attacks, re-rolling failed hits, with additional attacks on 6s, again re-rolling all failed hits ?

 p5freak wrote:
Has anyone considered running a crimson haze dlord with 3x9 novokh scarabs ? That's 108 attacks, re-rolling failed hits, with additional attacks on 6s, again re-rolling all failed hits ?

It's fun. Wraiths and scarabs are our best units imo with cost per point off damage to knights. It's unlikely that you'll ever gain the full benefit just due to the size of the bases and units though. Hard to get thst many large bases into comtact with the enemy.

Crimson haze doesn't add that much, but when you're taking most of your points in fast attack anyway, you might as well take a dlord.