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torblind wrote:
Yeah for 2+, or in cover, Gauss is better in rapid fire range , by a small margin.

Well yeah, but why wouldn't you want to get in rapid fire range with gauss? Its also better against 3+ saves at short range too.
To me, tesla and gauss are intended to be balanced in that one is good at long range, but the other is better at short ranges. Its why they are the same points cost despite one having better stats overall.
It would seem to me that a good composition would be mostly tesla with gauss thrown in to act as can openers / breachers. Something like 2:1 Tesla to gauss.

I run exactly that, 2:1 Tesla:Guass

I still however think the weapon options dont make much sense how they are. I think that Guass should be Assault 2 and then Tesla should be RF1

just makes more sense that way in my head.

but, as for pure numbers, I do think a unit of 10 Gauss Immortals are pretty good for a single-use 'I need this relatively squishy glass cannon thing dead'

Yeah, a return to 3rd ed immortal stats would be nice.
Assault 2 Blasters and T5 immortals were great. They were elites too back then though, but nowadays that's not very special for an elite unit, so they can probably stay as troops even with that loadout.

Changing tesla to RF 1 without touching their AP would make them useless though.

it would make them questionable, but it would make Mephrit have an actual purpose

also, Tesla TBs become downright lethal (if Mephrit even moreso)

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
How are you getting Tesla being more efficient than gauss against multi-wound MEQ/TEQ at close range? I'm getting higher numbers with gauss.
Then again, there's no MWBD option in the Mathhammer site, but is it really fair to compare them with buffs involved? What if you can't buff?

Gauss is better against MEQ at close range and a lot better against TEQ at close range. But why would you take Gauss Immortals over Gauss Tomb Blades? If we assume you want Gauss, then the best option is TBs. Tesla Immortals have the benefit of MWBD which makes them a good option compared to Tesla Tomb Blades. It might be that Gauss Immortals are better in a few circumstances compared to Tesla Immortals, but Gauss Tomb Blades are better than Gauss Immortals in almost all cases. Tomb Blades are ideal for bringing RF weapons close to the enemy line, while Gauss Immortals are sitting ducks at best or opportunities for your opponent to take captives and slingshot into your lines at worst.

Tesla multiplies damage by 1 at -1, 1,5 at +0, 1,8 at +1 and 2,2 at +2.

AP-2 multiplies damage output by 1 against 7+ Sv, 1,2 against 6+, 1,5 against 5+, 1,67 against 4+, 2 against 3+, 3 against 2+, 2 against 1+, 0% against 0+.

AP-1 (or AP-2 if your opponent has an invulnerable save 1 pt worse than their Sv) multiplies damage output by 1 against 7+ Sv, 1,2 against 6+, 1,25 against 5+, 1,33 against 4+, 1,5 against 3+, 2 against 2+, 1 against 1+.

The difference between AP- and AP-1 for Mephrit multiplies damage output compared to the difference between AP-2 and AP-3 for Mephrit by 1 against 7+ Sv, 1,2 against 6+, 1,25 against 5+, 1,11 against 4+, 1,20 against 3+, 1,5 against 2+ and 0,5 against 1+. So Mephrit has a bigger impact for Tesla than it does Gauss in all cases except for 1+ Sv.

RF 1 multiplies damage by 0,5 at ranges over 12".

-2 non-RF Gauss is equal to or better compared to -2 Tesla against 3+ Sv or better.

-2 RF Gauss is equal to or better compared to -2 Tesla in ALL CASES.

-1 non-RF Gauss is equal to or better compared to -1 Tesla against 3+ Sv or better.

-1 RF Gauss is equal to or better compared to -1 Tesla in ALL CASES.

+0 non-RF Gauss is equal to or better compared to +0 Tesla against 2+ Sv.

+0 RF Gauss is equal to or better compared to +0 Tesla against 5+ Sv or better. Or 4+ Sv or better if the unit is Mephrit.

+1 non-RF Gauss is equal to or better compared to +1 Tesla in NO CASES.

+1 RF Gauss is equal to or better compared to +1 Tesla against 3+ Sv. Or 2+ Sv or better if the unit is Mephrit.

+2 non-RF Gauss is equal to or better compared to +2 Tesla in NO CASES.

+2 RF Gauss is equal to or better compared to +2 Tesla against 2+ Sv.

But that's just being equal, with how much better Tesla is against a lot of targets and how rarely Gauss is better there is no real contest in terms of which weapon to put on your Immortals. The only case for Gauss Immortals is in a min-size Battalion/Brigade if you have a tonne of Tesla from Flyers/Lords of War where you need the CP, don't need the anti-GEQ and you need the anti-MEQ/TEQ. Even then, you are probably better off just taking an Outrider with a Cloaktek and some Gauss Tomb Blades instead of taking 3-4 sub-par units just to get 4 CP.

Let's look at the armies where Gauss is better Sisters, Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Custodes, then at the ones where Tesla is better: Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Tau, Tyranids, Genestealer Cults, Daemons of Chaos, Orks, Knights, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Harlequins, then finally at the ones where they are about equally good which is all the SM and CSM chapters and legions not previously mentioned. Tesla is a bazillion times better for a tournament lists ATM. While Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Custodes and Alpha Legion are things to consider, they simply don't make up a large enough chunk of the meta to be worth sacrificing as much shooting as you will commonly do by taking Gauss against GEQ and often those lists include non-MEQ units anyways. Tesla can output as much as 4x the damage Gauss can, while Gauss at best does twice as much damage as Tesla in RF range, often against units you'd be better off shooting with Destroyers or DDAs anyways.

 vict0988 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
How are you getting Tesla being more efficient than gauss against multi-wound MEQ/TEQ at close range? I'm getting higher numbers with gauss.
Then again, there's no MWBD option in the Mathhammer site, but is it really fair to compare them with buffs involved? What if you can't buff?

Gauss is better against MEQ at close range and a lot better against TEQ at close range. But why would you take Gauss Immortals over Gauss Tomb Blades?

Well, there are a few reasons I could think of for not taking tomb blades -

>Not enough FA slots
> Don't have Tomb Blades at all
>Pretty expensive and fragile. Its 30 pts with a 4+ save. There is a -1 to hit penalty against them which is nice, but if one dies its going to be a problem due to its small squad size. Its a similar weakness to destroyers, except they have better defensive stats. Immortals at least have the numbers to have a chance at getting RP and aren't as affected by multi-damage weapons.
> Not enough points for Tomb Blades and a 3rd Tesla troop unit
> Really hate the model. Seriously, what a terrible design. Who's the git who sculpted it up and thought "yeah, this looks amazing. Let's put it through production"?

 IHateNids wrote:
I think that Guass should be Assault 2 and then Tesla should be RF1

That's actually not a bad idea, although I might make Gauss Blaster 18" Assault 2, S5 AP-2. Allows them to stay farther back than 24" RF1 Telsa wants to, but not TOO far back.
Short of Destroyers and DDAs, Necrons have always been an "up in your face" army. The changes above would mesh well with that and put both weapons on par with each other.

You take Gauss for the more "reliable" number of shots at a safer range, when Tesla is the more, up in your face pew-pew
I think statistically, RF1 Telsa outside 12" would average just under the same number of hits as Assault 2 Gauss, but within 12" Telsa will easily get more hits, but without AP.

But enough with the proposed rules. As it stands, I agree Tesla is the best option, especially for Mephrit

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


>Pretty expensive and fragile. Its 30 pts with a 4+ save. There is a -1 to hit penalty against them which is nice, but if one dies its going to be a problem due to its small squad size. Its a similar weakness to destroyers, except they have better defensive stats. Immortals at least have the numbers to have a chance at getting RP and aren't as affected by multi-damage weapons.

?
You can take blades in units of 9, immortals in units of 10, there is a one model difference in max unit size.
Besides, tomb blades have 2 w each and t 5, and can be given shield vanes for a 3+ save, and shadowlooms for a 5++
Furthermore, they're like the only necron unit that can take mixed wargear, so you can give some of them vanes and some of them looms for maximised efficiency

They're one of the most durable non-vehicle units we have, and infinitely more durable than immortals

Kahi the Uncertain wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


>Pretty expensive and fragile. Its 30 pts with a 4+ save. There is a -1 to hit penalty against them which is nice, but if one dies its going to be a problem due to its small squad size. Its a similar weakness to destroyers, except they have better defensive stats. Immortals at least have the numbers to have a chance at getting RP and aren't as affected by multi-damage weapons.

?
You can take blades in units of 9, immortals in units of 10, there is a one model difference in max unit size.
Besides, tomb blades have 2 w each and t 5, and can be given shield vanes for a 3+ save, and shadowlooms for a 5++
Furthermore, they're like the only necron unit that can take mixed wargear, so you can give some of them vanes and some of them looms for maximised efficiency

They're one of the most durable non-vehicle units we have, and infinitely more durable than immortals

Well, with shield vanes they'll be almost as much as 2 immortals, so that sort of balances out.
Good point about the T5 though. I made a mistake about that. So they are tougher than immortals by a fair bit, though RP is still a problem if they do take losses unless you max them out.
A max squad of blades would cost considerably more than a max squad of immortals. You do get more wounds out of it, however.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Well, with shield vanes they'll be almost as much as 2 immortals, so that sort of balances out.
Good point about the T5 though. I made a mistake about that. So they are tougher than immortals by a fair bit, though RP is still a problem if they do take losses unless you max them out.
A max squad of blades would cost considerably more than a max squad of immortals. You do get more wounds out of it, however.

You also get double the damage output since they have 2 blasters each. A blade with blasters and shield vanes costs 31 points vs 2 immortals at 34. They have an equal amount of wounds and shots. Now, blades are susceptible to multi damage weapons, but they also get T5 and -1 to hit, as well as the fly keyword and almost triple the move characteristic, making them a lot better at the role of getting into rapid fire range and laying down the hurt, while also having a chance at survival.

And if they suffer casualties or get charged, they can zip off 14" to hide and reanimate, whereas the immortals are stuck with a 5" move and the inability to fall back and shoot.

Their force org role is the only thing that warrants taking gauss immortals over tomb blades, really, since they're worse in every single way

Kahi the Uncertain wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Well, with shield vanes they'll be almost as much as 2 immortals, so that sort of balances out.
Good point about the T5 though. I made a mistake about that. So they are tougher than immortals by a fair bit, though RP is still a problem if they do take losses unless you max them out.
A max squad of blades would cost considerably more than a max squad of immortals. You do get more wounds out of it, however.

You also get double the damage output since they have 2 blasters each. A blade with blasters and shield vanes costs 31 points vs 2 immortals at 34. They have an equal amount of wounds and shots. Now, blades are susceptible to multi damage weapons, but they also get T5 and -1 to hit, as well as the fly keyword and almost triple the move characteristic, making them a lot better at the role of getting into rapid fire range and laying down the hurt, while also having a chance at survival.

And if they suffer casualties or get charged, they can zip off 14" to hide and reanimate, whereas the immortals are stuck with a 5" move and the inability to fall back and shoot.

Their force org role is the only thing that warrants taking gauss immortals over tomb blades, really, since they're worse in every single way

... And very impptantly the ability to take MWBD

torblind wrote:


... And very impptantly the ability to take MWBD

... Which is not very important for gauss

Oh I thought we were talking immortals in general. Agree fully then.

I'll take gauss everyday as in my area peeps like to sit in cover with hellblasters all the time a 2 up save is a pita to get though and anything that reduces that is good.

Skullhammer wrote:
I'll take gauss everyday as in my area peeps like to sit in cover with hellblasters all the time a 2 up save is a pita to get though and anything that reduces that is good.

Why not spam Destroyers and DDAs? Why not take Tesla Tomb Blades with Nebuloscopes or Gauss Tomb Blades with/without Nebuloscopes? Gauss Immortals aren't really good against Hellblasters in cover, just less bad than Tesla Immortals. If you get into RF range you'll lose almost as many Immortals as you kill Hellblasters just from the Ancient allowing them to shoot you when they die at least if your opponent is taking the RF Plasma which has been my overwhelming experience against Hellblasters.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

torblind wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
How are you getting Tesla being more efficient than gauss against multi-wound MEQ/TEQ at close range? I'm getting higher numbers with gauss.
Then again, there's no MWBD option in the Mathhammer site, but is it really fair to compare them with buffs involved? What if you can't buff?

http://www.dice-hammer.com has this, just change model count and weapon stats, click the tesla checkbox on the weapon and +1 for the unit and you can pick out the Sv 3+ / T4 cell above for damage output. You can also toggle "in cover" up in the top bar.

I'm still getting higher numbers with Gauss. 5.56 with Gauss against T4 2+ save and 7.41 against T4 3+ save as opposed to 3.33 against T4 2+ save and 6.67 against T4 3+ save on tesla. Both have MWBD.
I compared the results with Mathhammer and it seems to check out.

Yeah well T4 2+ in rapid fire is pretty much ONLY situation where gauss is better. And that's too small niche. Power armour sucks 8th ed anyway so worrying about 3+ in cover is pointless. And if there's really critical 3+ save unit in cover you need to delete tesla+solar pulse does the trick better. And there's lot more targets out there than 2+ anyway. This is edition of cheap chaff in terms of infantry, not power armour. And against those even tesla immortals struggle nevermind gauss immortals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

torblind wrote:
Yeah for 2+, or in cover, Gauss is better in rapid fire range , by a small margin.

Well yeah, but why wouldn't you want to get in rapid fire range with gauss? Its also better against 3+ saves at short range too.
To me, tesla and gauss are intended to be balanced in that one is good at long range, but the other is better at short ranges. Its why they are the same points cost despite one having better stats overall.
It would seem to me that a good composition would be mostly tesla with gauss thrown in to act as can openers / breachers. Something like 2:1 Tesla to gauss.

Because you don't get automatically into rapid range just like that. Only semi reliable way is veil but that costs relic, chance to use it to bail out of combat without fall back, is vulnerable to chaff screens preventing(have fun veiling'g within 12" of...IG troopers. Mighty good provide!).

On foot you are looking at 1-2 turns outside of rapid so you aren't comparing gaus in rapid fire. You are comparing something like 3 rounds at full strenght for tesla vs 2 rounds at half strength and 1 round at full strength for gaus. That's extra round of shooting for tesla..

But sure if you have enemy rushing into rapid fire range without charging gauss is good Pretty unusual opponent though


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skullhammer wrote:
I'll take gauss everyday as in my area peeps like to sit in cover with hellblasters all the time a 2 up save is a pita to get though and anything that reduces that is good.

Presumably gaus tomb blades? Because frankly immortals have no way to get into RF range reliably. Veil can be blocked by chaff and even if not you'll get round of fire from hellblasters in your face before you shoot. Boom. No more gauss immortals. The auspex scan is pain for that. And if they have banner nearby any kills your survivors might do cause you to lose rest anyway.

Anyone here got a competitive 1k list for Necrons?

It has to deal with Knights at 1k and/or Baneblade variants.

I have an idea of what to take but somehow it lacks something, I just dont know what...

Knights and Baneblades at 1k... ouch.

I'd go with something like

Cloaktek
2 DDA's
1 Teserract Ark
1 Triarch Stalker
9 Tomb blades with Neb scopes

If you don't have a T.Ark, then take a 3rd DDA and 3 Scarabs.

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Anyone here got a competitive 1k list for Necrons?

It has to deal with Knights at 1k and/or Baneblade variants.

I have an idea of what to take but somehow it lacks something, I just dont know what...

You didnt say anything about the mission, does it have objective markers ? So, here is a suggestion.



I dont like doom scythes, but against knights they look useful. They block their movement, use the 1CP strat to try to deal 3D3 MW. Destroyers deepstrike and try to kill a knight with MD. Scarabs hold objectives (if any).

Alternative list :

Used the Doom Scythe strat to great effect over the weekend, scoring max mortal wounds against one unit of aggressors and 5 mortal wounds against another.

I'm not familiar enough with the Space Marines codex to know what 12 Aggessors costs in points but I know a huge chunk of my opponents firepower got blown away and probably won me the game straight off the bat.

Flyers dont block anymore.

So, last weekend was a local tourney, came 4th out of 24. In spoilers is my list plus a few footnotes I sent to another social group I'm part of, so pardon the formatting.



I also appeal for some Hive Mind Guideance.

If you could only have DDAs or Doom Scythes working under Sautekh codes thanks to TO houserules, which is better to take? I'm leaning towards Doom Scythes, but this is a narrow lead...

Context:
The tourney I was in is part of a championship, and the next round is in august so I have time to get more things painted.
The local store prefers people to have their different factions presented in different colours, which is perfectly understandable. (Note - not dictated to be WYSIWYG. I frequently fight some Alpha-Night Legion-Lords, or my personal favourite Farsight T'au Sept)
I recently came into some 80% done Sautekh-scheme infantry. I can finish these as Sautekh, and I have my own custo scheme which my DDAs are currently sitting pretty in (Commision Jobs, because I'm not very good at paitning that much)

I also have 2 unpainted and one half finished (and therefore easily redactable) Doom Scythes.

I ask:
Would it be better to paint up the 3 unfinished DSs to create a Sautekh Battalion+Air Wing (inc Imotekh), allowing me to use the rest of my models with my own scheme (Novokh Inspired, but not locked) to create a multi-faction Dynamic
Or
Just commit to the one faction, and make do?

Not quite sure what would be better for me at this point.

For additional context - my one outstanding purchase in the foreseeable couple of months is going to be a Tesseract Ark, which will be painted in Sautekh pretty much regardless.

Any help would be appreciated. Feel free to ask for clarification if I botched this question, which I probably did...

COLD CASH wrote:
Flyers dont block anymore.

Well in practice you can still block quite a lot. Those bases are big. Hard to get completely 1" away from it.

The doom scythe formation can be a real pain for your opponent in their movement phase if they've got hordes

Cynista wrote:
Knights and Baneblades at 1k... ouch.

I'd go with something like

Cloaktek
2 DDA's
1 Teserract Ark
1 Triarch Stalker
9 Tomb blades with Neb scopes

If you don't have a T.Ark, then take a 3rd DDA and 3 Scarabs.

I dont have a TArk

3DDAs are not allowed due to rule of 2 at 1k points

Dont underestimate a unit of 3 Heavy Destroyers

sure, they're "only" lascannon, but they reroll 1s to hit, arte immune to movement penalties, and can use Extermination if something just absolutely needs to die

That being said, your milage my not be amazing

x3 HDs are actually on average, about as dangerous damage-wise as a DDA, 3 shots vs avg 3.5 shots, but are more accurate (reroll 1s to hit naturally). However, they are not nearly as durable. 9 T5 3+ wounds vs 14 T6 4+ QS wounds. Similar price point too.

What would you add to the following list to:
A) get to 1500pts and
B) make it slightly more competitive


The original goal of the list was to have a non-Eldar Xenos opponent list for my 2 sons' Marines. I also wanted to have all the "classic" Necrons, which is why the Immortals in the list are actually modeled as Warriors (pre-5th only Troops choice and had 3+ armour at the time) and why I have Scarabs, Destroyers and the Monolith.

But if I wanted to add to the list to bring it up in power a bit (as my boys now each have 1500pts of UM and Salamanders including Plasma Inceptors, Hellblasters and plenty of Intercessors), what would you add?
Maybe a Command Barge lord and split the 3 FAs into an Outirider?
Triarch Stalker? Wraiths?

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Dda. You have huge at lack so any vehicle has just to deal with 3 destroyers and that's it. Also bumb immortals to 10

tneva82 wrote:
Dda. You have huge at lack so any vehicle has just to deal with 3 destroyers and that's it. Also bumb immortals to 10

Yeah, fair enough. We don't use many vehicles, so the only things the list would face is 2-3 Dreads. Probably not going to expand at all since at 1500pts, we use Eldar as the main Marine opponent, but I'd like to get some ideas just in case.

With what I have already, do you think Mephrit is the best Dynasty, or would you go with something else. The plan is to leave the 6-bot Immortals in cover near back-to-mid field Objectives, while the Monolith and Veiled 10-bot Immortal unit moves forward. I figure at ~1000pts, 10 MWBD Tesla Immortals with AP-1 (Mephrit) should be enough to take care of big threats early.
Using the Monolith as an LoS blocker for the Destroyers and 10 Immortals turn 1. Scarabs move as harassment/tarpits for less threatening targets near the 10 Immortal unit

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