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tneva82 wrote:

c) say you roll 4 and 3 for charges. You need 8"+ to charge from DS(evil sun). Super critical charge. One that you want to succeed for sure. Before you could do: Use command CP to reroll 3 hoping for 4+. But you roll 3. Drat. Well you could still have used native ork reroll ability to reroll the 4 hoping for 5+ instead. Costs CP yes but sometimes there just is such an important game deciding charge that you are willing to pay that CP to improve your odds a bit. This died in FAQ. Now you have to declare all rerolls before you roll. (also both players have to declare any rerolls they are going to do for roll offs in advance. So if you roll 3 and opponent rolls 1 do you want to reroll that 3? Cant' wait for opponent to reroll first to see)

But that's dumb though. What happens if you pass the roll? This new system seems counter intuitive.
For a version that's supposed to be more stream lined than previous editions, it sure is getting convoluted.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

c) say you roll 4 and 3 for charges. You need 8"+ to charge from DS(evil sun). Super critical charge. One that you want to succeed for sure. Before you could do: Use command CP to reroll 3 hoping for 4+. But you roll 3. Drat. Well you could still have used native ork reroll ability to reroll the 4 hoping for 5+ instead. Costs CP yes but sometimes there just is such an important game deciding charge that you are willing to pay that CP to improve your odds a bit. This died in FAQ. Now you have to declare all rerolls before you roll. (also both players have to declare any rerolls they are going to do for roll offs in advance. So if you roll 3 and opponent rolls 1 do you want to reroll that 3? Cant' wait for opponent to reroll first to see)

But that's dumb though. What happens if you pass the roll? This new system seems counter intuitive.
For a version that's supposed to be more stream lined than previous editions, it sure is getting convoluted.

I'm not sure how that's convoluted? You either re-roll one or both dice and then that's all the re-rolling done for that roll.

Given that Eldar flyers and Iron hands look like they're going to be the big hotness moving forwards, where do we stand on the Pylon?

I can see the Pylon eating the void left by the triple doom wing.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

c) say you roll 4 and 3 for charges. You need 8"+ to charge from DS(evil sun). Super critical charge. One that you want to succeed for sure. Before you could do: Use command CP to reroll 3 hoping for 4+. But you roll 3. Drat. Well you could still have used native ork reroll ability to reroll the 4 hoping for 5+ instead. Costs CP yes but sometimes there just is such an important game deciding charge that you are willing to pay that CP to improve your odds a bit. This died in FAQ. Now you have to declare all rerolls before you roll. (also both players have to declare any rerolls they are going to do for roll offs in advance. So if you roll 3 and opponent rolls 1 do you want to reroll that 3? Cant' wait for opponent to reroll first to see)

But that's dumb though. What happens if you pass the roll? This new system seems counter intuitive.
For a version that's supposed to be more stream lined than previous editions, it sure is getting convoluted.

Well you know the original result before commiting to rerolls. It's just that you can't reroll one dice and THEN decide you reroll the other. So in effect you decide to reroll one or all first and in this case you would roll just the 1(using native ork reroll) because rolling 4+ on one dice is more likely(50%) than rolling 8+ on 2d6(42%).

Before you could try to reroll one and go for 2nd reroll if that too fails. Now no more that.

Not HUGE nerf(I have yet to succeed in anything but waste of CP trying this ) but nerf nevertheless. Plus the other(albeit small) nerfs.


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IanVanCheese wrote:
Given that Eldar flyers and Iron hands look like they're going to be the big hotness moving forwards, where do we stand on the Pylon?

I can see the Pylon eating the void left by the triple doom wing.

Not sure why iron hands would help pylon? Seeing they can halve damage and then add further -1 seems like pylon AT power is getting quite a dent. Spam of -1/-2 D1 weapons that have enough S to hurt vehicles seems better deal.

Seeing I ordered pylon this morning I hope it leads to pylon being better! I just doubt it. But I'm not hopeful with necrons vs numarines anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Yeah, this. I don't see how you would get infinite hits anyway, as the strat does say that the extra hits generated wouldn't proc extra hits.

Tesla isn't only one...There were couple tricks marines could do resulting in infinite hits if that FAQ stands. So if you want the triple tesla you would have to accept marines getting infinite hits. You sure you want that?

tneva82 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

c) say you roll 4 and 3 for charges. You need 8"+ to charge from DS(evil sun). Super critical charge. One that you want to succeed for sure. Before you could do: Use command CP to reroll 3 hoping for 4+. But you roll 3. Drat. Well you could still have used native ork reroll ability to reroll the 4 hoping for 5+ instead. Costs CP yes but sometimes there just is such an important game deciding charge that you are willing to pay that CP to improve your odds a bit. This died in FAQ. Now you have to declare all rerolls before you roll. (also both players have to declare any rerolls they are going to do for roll offs in advance. So if you roll 3 and opponent rolls 1 do you want to reroll that 3? Cant' wait for opponent to reroll first to see)

But that's dumb though. What happens if you pass the roll? This new system seems counter intuitive.
For a version that's supposed to be more stream lined than previous editions, it sure is getting convoluted.

Well you know the original result before commiting to rerolls. It's just that you can't reroll one dice and THEN decide you reroll the other. So in effect you decide to reroll one or all first and in this case you would roll just the 1(using native ork reroll) because rolling 4+ on one dice is more likely(50%) than rolling 8+ on 2d6(42%).

Before you could try to reroll one and go for 2nd reroll if that too fails. Now no more that.

Not HUGE nerf(I have yet to succeed in anything but waste of CP trying this ) but nerf nevertheless. Plus the other(albeit small) nerfs.

Oh, I thought you mean like "I declare I'm going to reroll this single die if it fails"
Yeah, that makes sense.

tneva82 wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
Given that Eldar flyers and Iron hands look like they're going to be the big hotness moving forwards, where do we stand on the Pylon?

I can see the Pylon eating the void left by the triple doom wing.

Not sure why iron hands would help pylon? Seeing they can halve damage and then add further -1 seems like pylon AT power is getting quite a dent. Spam of -1/-2 D1 weapons that have enough S to hurt vehicles seems better deal.

Seeing I ordered pylon this morning I hope it leads to pylon being better! I just doubt it. But I'm not hopeful with necrons vs numarines anyway.

How are Iron Hands halfing damage? That only works on Dreadnoughts right? As for the -1, I agree that the best answer is spamming tesla. But the second best option is fewer shot, higher damage weapons. IH are going to be running Repulsors in numbers, Pylon hits and wounds them on 2+.

What in IH makes fewer shot, higher damage weapons good? Those haven't been the go to in AT department in 8th ed meta long time. What on earth IH have that I have missed where that actually is something to go? Their dreadnoughts absorb damage and invulnerable saves the IH got to their vehicles makes high AP weapons less effective than they were before IH supplement.

I see nothing in IH book that makes high S high damage weapons which were already not the best AT weapons in the game be any better. Only more protection vs those weapons.

tneva82 wrote:
What in IH makes fewer shot, higher damage weapons good? Those haven't been the go to in AT department in 8th ed meta long time. What on earth IH have that I have missed where that actually is something to go? Their dreadnoughts absorb damage and invulnerable saves the IH got to their vehicles makes high AP weapons less effective than they were before IH supplement.

I see nothing in IH book that makes high S high damage weapons which were already not the best AT weapons in the game be any better. Only more protection vs those weapons.

-1 from all damage taken. If you spam D2 weaponry, you lose 1D from every shot. Higher damage weapons suffer less. 6 damage becomes 5, whereas 3 x 2 damage becomes 3 total. The current AT meta of spamming D2 and D3 weapons is going to fall apart against IH. I think higher damage stuff will make a comeback. Also IH's can get a 5++ sure, but that's the best they can manage. part of the reason high damage stuff sucks is that Knights could get 4++ or even 3++. That's less of an issue with IH. The damage will get through, you just need more of it.

IH have absolutely ruined Tau as they currently stand though, which is nice.

tneva82 wrote:
What in IH makes fewer shot, higher damage weapons good? Those haven't been the go to in AT department in 8th ed meta long time. What on earth IH have that I have missed where that actually is something to go? Their dreadnoughts absorb damage and invulnerable saves the IH got to their vehicles makes high AP weapons less effective than they were before IH supplement.

I see nothing in IH book that makes high S high damage weapons which were already not the best AT weapons in the game be any better. Only more protection vs those weapons.

A Gauss Pylon does an average of 11 damage to a Repulsor per turn, even if it has a 5+ and -1 damage, the same number of pts worth of Immortals would do 7 damage per turn. You need little more than two wounds to go through and kill a Repulsor, you have a solid chance of one-shotting them. For the Dreadnoughts you shoot DDAs at one of them until your opponent pops the half damage Strat, then shoot the Gauss Pylon at another Dreadnought and finish off that second Dreadnought with your remaining DDAs, flyers, Tesla and you continue ignoring the Dreadnought with the Strat. QD increases durability by 20% against 1 damage (yay for breaking the rules in the design document), 27% against D3 damage and 60% against D6 damage. The SM Dread Strat increases durability by 0% against 1 damage, 50% against D3 damage and 69% against D6 damage. I am just glad we don't have any D2 weapons, nobody wanted to try using Scytheguard or Wraiths against Dreadnoughts right?

 vict0988 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
What in IH makes fewer shot, higher damage weapons good? Those haven't been the go to in AT department in 8th ed meta long time. What on earth IH have that I have missed where that actually is something to go? Their dreadnoughts absorb damage and invulnerable saves the IH got to their vehicles makes high AP weapons less effective than they were before IH supplement.

I see nothing in IH book that makes high S high damage weapons which were already not the best AT weapons in the game be any better. Only more protection vs those weapons.

A Gauss Pylon does an average of 11 damage to a Repulsor per turn, even if it has a 5+ and -1 damage, the same number of pts worth of Immortals would do 7 damage per turn. You need little more than two wounds to go through and kill a Repulsor, you have a solid chance of one-shotting them. For the Dreadnoughts you shoot DDAs at one of them until your opponent pops the half damage Strat, then shoot the Gauss Pylon at another Dreadnought and finish off that second Dreadnought with your remaining DDAs, flyers, Tesla and you continue ignoring the Dreadnought with the Strat. QD increases durability by 20% against 1 damage (yay for breaking the rules in the design document), 27% against D3 damage and 60% against D6 damage. The SM Dread Strat increases durability by 0% against 1 damage, 50% against D3 damage and 69% against D6 damage. I am just glad we don't have any D2 weapons, nobody wanted to try using Scytheguard or Wraiths against Dreadnoughts right?

This.

I'm not saying a Pylon will have us at the top of the tier list, ruining Iron hands all day every day. They are soooooo good and we already sucked before they turned up. But I think a Pylon is the best switch up to our current tournament lists that we can bring (plus it works well vs Eldar flyers, the other big worry out there at the moment).

Leviathan is currently unkillable (for all intents and purposes), no matter what you bring or what army you play. As it currently stands, your best hope is that they deploy badly and you can hide on the other side of the table and deal with their other units.

 Latro_ wrote:
Thinking about doing a necrons army, cursory glance at this thread and some blogs and it appears its not a good time for metal guys?

Am i right in thinking to even survive a game in current 8th its:
3x Doom scythes
3x Doomsday arks
immo, overlords and teks
tesla immortals up the wazoo
tomb blades or destroyers

pretty much ignore the rest of the book

Yup. Maybe add Gauss Pylon, Scarabs, Wraiths to the list.

Yeah, ive been looking at the math hammer on the Iron Hands Leviathan dread. T8, 2+,5++,6+++ with half damage and/or the reduce damage by 1. Not to mention they can repair the thing. Its been a tough nut to crack and I very much expect it to be the new "staple" like the castellaten was, but only for SM armies.

4++. It has a native 4+ Invuln.

Okay I admit my mistake.

Well good good. The more worthwhile targets there are for pylon the more use I get now that I got one! (Assuming I manage to assemble it without ending up in ruins)

edit: DDA's are worthless vs levi dread but neither pylon fares any better...

3 dda: 3.1111 before FNP
pylon: averages 3.2 wounds before FNP.

Yeah. Just don't shoot at the damn thing. If he has multiple ones you could try to trigger the stratagem and shoots the other but even then you average just 4.1 wounds pre-FNP to the non-stratagem relic.

Guess necrons have 2 options with it. Ignore it and accept casualties or charge it with wraiths. Preferably so it can't move in case it has the warlord trait that allows it to move out of combat in consolidiate move.

Has anyone noticed the quote in the Phoenix rising video that says something about keeping the sleepers forever in their slumber? Seems like a reference to the Necrons to me.

Maybe. But so far fairly reliable rumour monger isn't hinting necrons for first 4 books so necrons would be coming more like Q3 or Q4 of 2020. So plenty time to wait by the look of it :-/

Realized that I should have put that in the rumor section, so I'll post some meta-theory.

Having only played against Knights a few times, but against a LOT of other armies, I'm rethinking the need for DDAs with the new Leviathan Dread + SM meta, and moving back to my favorite unit, Wraiths.

My new 2k list looks something like this :

Sautek
Cryptek, cloak Warlord, Hyperlogical Strategist, Veil of Darkness
6 Destroyers
6 Destroyers
9 Tomb Blades, Shield Vanes, Nebuloscope

Novokh
Cryptek, cloak
6 Wraiths
6 Wraiths
6 Wraiths
5 Scarabs

Not a lot of subtlety in this list, it's very aggressive. Put everything on the front line, charge forward with the wraiths and shoot stuff with the destroyers.

It's only 5 command points, I might get 6 with the trait. Those will likely be spent on Adaptive Subroutines and Methodical destruction.

Wraiths are good for taking objectives away from people while the other units are ok at holding mid-table objectives. It really struggles against knights however.

How good are the new SM books at dealing with knights? Will we actually see the meta shift from them?

barontuman wrote:
Has anyone noticed the quote in the Phoenix rising video that says something about keeping the sleepers forever in their slumber? Seems like a reference to the Necrons to me.

It seems to me that it's from the two parts sentence :

"Death stalks from the Dark City"
"They wish eternal slumber on the sleeping"

I find it weird to be about the necron. My guess would be about the Aeldari conflict, the sleeping being the souls of the infinity circuit of the craftworlds. When an eldar soul pilot a wraithlord/wraithguard they experience reality as a dream (from lexicanum). The sleeping would be all the souls in the infinity circuits.

Quoting lexicanum on Ynnead : "Ynnead itself (the God of the Dead) is supposedly a nascent Eldar god growing in the collective Infinity Circuits of every Craftworld, from the souls of dead Eldar."

We also know that Vect is quite an antagonist to Yvraine and Ynnead and he already on occasion sent Incubi all over the place for his plans.

So my little theory is that this sentence describe Vect searching to stop Ynnead by attacking one way or the other the souls of the craftworlders. Incubi being known for their shattered stones, maybe it's all linked. Or not. Maybe i'm a fool

Back to necrons, as the objective of Psychic Awakening seems to reveal secrets and advance storyline, my bet/wish is more with knowing more about the Silent King that could be tied with some story about Baal and the Tyrannids, or the Void Dragon (the not so secret mega secret) giving us some story with the Mechanicus.

"Death Stalks from the Dark City" is a reference to the Dark Eldar.
Commoragh is also known as "The Dark City"

Eternal Slumber on the Sleeping could be a reference to Necrons though.

barontuman wrote:
Realized that I should have put that in the rumor section, so I'll post some meta-theory.

Having only played against Knights a few times, but against a LOT of other armies, I'm rethinking the need for DDAs with the new Leviathan Dread + SM meta, and moving back to my favorite unit, Wraiths.

My new 2k list looks something like this :

Sautek
Cryptek, cloak Warlord, Hyperlogical Strategist, Veil of Darkness
6 Destroyers
6 Destroyers
9 Tomb Blades, Shield Vanes, Nebuloscope

Novokh
Cryptek, cloak
6 Wraiths
6 Wraiths
6 Wraiths
5 Scarabs

Not a lot of subtlety in this list, it's very aggressive. Put everything on the front line, charge forward with the wraiths and shoot stuff with the destroyers.

It's only 5 command points, I might get 6 with the trait. Those will likely be spent on Adaptive Subroutines and Methodical destruction.

Wraiths are good for taking objectives away from people while the other units are ok at holding mid-table objectives. It really struggles against knights however.

How good are the new SM books at dealing with knights? Will we actually see the meta shift from them?

Iron Hands, Ultramarines and Raven Guard all ruin knights pretty hard. Also you're not going to see knights souped into space marine armies anymore, so I think the need to kill knights is decreasing. However, you will need to be able to drop heavily armoured lists, which I think your list will also struggle against. Wraiths are tough and can tag vehicles, but the amount of Str 5 shots marines can put out is crazy and more than enough to whittle them down. Also repulsors can just fly away and shoot you anyway.

The rising tide of codexes is starting to drown us I'm afraid, we need a new book so badly now.

Wraiths don't even make much of dent on ih vehicles. 6 makes like 2-3 wounds for fnp roll. Whee. To kill ih vehicles you need to kill the relic bearer. Likely castled up passing wounds to buddies with stratagem making even doom scythe mw bomb inefficient

They also pretty much auto lose to psychers lol. Mortal wounds really punish them and if your playing any flavor of marines or chaos your probably looking down the barrel of null zone or death hex. Wraiths need double the attacks to be worth trading them, right now a 48 point model that is so one dimensional and easily countered is terrible. They also managed to bone them in the FAQ now they can't phase through/over bunkers and have to pay vertical for walls in ruins. Maybe that was already in the FAQ, but I forgot or missed it, either way that really nails the coffin lid shut for me.

I return to my previous argument. Pylons. Pylons, everywhere.

3 Pylons and 3 DDAs + 2 Crypteks. That's under 2000pts right?

Against that leviathan you cause about 6 wounds after fnp which they heal right away on their turn.

Against repulsor 20 wounds or so with all 4(15 if target doesn't fly) before fnp. Albeit you improve it a bit with command reroll.


1140 pts btw. 30 immortals, overlord and 6 destroyers would fit. Pylon basically replaces doom scythe trio(bit more). Well if gearing vs ih no destroyers. Those are useless vs ih vehicles

They are not great verse primaris in general. Just don't expect to beat the brand new flavor of the month this far out from our release, especially when the book they wrote was a turd.

Non-ih primaris vehicles blow up just fine for destroyers. It's ih ones with -1 damage and 5++ that kills destroyers. 7.77 pre fnp is not great

I've never had an issue with null-zone, it's only 6 inches, and typically the threat range of the wraiths is enough to charge the caster before it goes into effect, or at least kill it on the charge before going down.

Glad to hear that we'll be seeing less knights. They rather ruined the game for me personally. I hate the larger models and would rather play with "miniatures" instead of "toys"

Mortal wounds from psykers are similar. Scarabs are great for absorbing those, and then the wraiths kill the psykers as well.

I'm less worried about null zone, more about ridic amount of dakka you face which isn't too worried about 3++. Hell charging leviathan has good chance of losing 2 wraiths. About quaranteed if you do charge within 8"(2 heavy flamers)

tneva82 wrote:
I'm less worried about null zone, more about ridic amount of dakka you face which isn't too worried about 3++. Hell charging leviathan has good chance of losing 2 wraiths. About quaranteed if you do charge within 8"(2 heavy flamers)

Agreed. I think for the Leviathan, we just have to admit it's unkillable and move on. Consolidating into it after a charge is always an option, and from then it's just keeping it tied up while killing everything else. I personally think we're going to be seeing lots of Agressors. Destroyers with their better movement and range will be a good counter for those.

The other issue we have is that our snipers are awful, so we can't even take out the characters that are giving the buffs.

The leviathan will be nerfed soon enough anyway (I'm expecting them to just say that you can't use the half damage strat on it, or that damage reducers don't stack).

barontuman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
I'm less worried about null zone, more about ridic amount of dakka you face which isn't too worried about 3++. Hell charging leviathan has good chance of losing 2 wraiths. About quaranteed if you do charge within 8"(2 heavy flamers)

Agreed. I think for the Leviathan, we just have to admit it's unkillable and move on. Consolidating into it after a charge is always an option, and from then it's just keeping it tied up while killing everything else. I personally think we're going to be seeing lots of Agressors. Destroyers with their better movement and range will be a good counter for those.

Issue being it\s packing hell of a punch with our range band(24"). It's going to make mincemeat of any immortal you send anywhere near and can force our dda's to move further away robbing of the main gun :-/

Also IH can make it character with warlord trait of fallback any direction so unless you surround it you can't even tag it. It consolidiates out of combat and shoots freely! Check ahead does he sport that one before sending anything into it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

IanVanCheese wrote:
The other issue we have is that our snipers are awful, so we can't even take out the characters that are giving the buffs.

You need pretty nasty snipers to get by stratagem that allows friendly guys absorb bullets though. Not many armies can do that. Not even vindicator will get him easily.