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Jan, did you factor in D2 on the wraiths?

I even said “against one-wound models, FOs do significantly better.”

v0iddrgn wrote:
Well, Im convinced that FO's are good now. Although, I'll probably wait for them to get a plastic kit because I can't justify spending over $100 for a full unit.

Convert Warriors with cool arms. Thats what I did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Jan, did you factor in D2 on the wraiths?

I even said “against one-wound models, FOs do significantly better.”

Yessir. That is why Wraiths are 2.77 wounds better against 2-wound models, but worse against 1 or 3+ wound models.

They’re better against multi-wound models. Do the math against Custodes-even at three wounds, Wraiths are way better.

Wraiths are also faster and more durable.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Can we freaking drop the Flayed Ones discussion already?! Frak me its nothing but this for 3 pages.

Assuming the leaks are true, and Praetorians go down a few more points, would they have a niche? Right now, they fill almost the exact same role as a Wraith. But without the 3++.

Their damage output still sucks, but they're interesting as objective grabbers/holders. 100 pts for 10 wounds at T5, 3+ save with good movement. I'd consider them, but the problem is I'm not sure what I'd drop to fit them in my lists? Hopefully we get some points drops in the units we're already using (I think Immortals could drop to 14pts and our HQs all need drops for sure). Also, as good as they can be, I think Destroyers are overpointed without Extermination Protocols. I'd rather they dropped to 40pts each and Extermination Protocols went up to 2CP. Of course that's not happening though, GW bases balance on how used thing are.

Given Jancoran's condescending, smug tone I almost don't want Flayed Ones to get a drop, because they might become good and then he'll claim to be a trend setter rather than just a nob. With that said, they become interesting if they drop down to 10pts per model. But yeah, there aren't many units that wouldn't improve with a 40% drop so meh.

I think Psychic Awakening will do far more for us than any measly points drops will manage.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Assuming the leaks are true, and Praetorians go down a few more points, would they have a niche? Right now, they fill almost the exact same role as a Wraith. But without the 3++.

Well short of epic failure by GW(seeing they are the ones that told us the points) the price drop is true.

Guess depending on terrain you have they might have SOME use for counter charging but I would still pay the 4 pts more for lychguard. You can get buffed by immortal to hit on 2+ and you have 4++ which at least gives them SOME survivability. There's so much D2 weapons out there the W2 is less impressive than it sounds alas :-/

Well at least you aren't totally screwing yourself anymore. Semi competive they could work semi okay

tneva82 wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Assuming the leaks are true, and Praetorians go down a few more points, would they have a niche? Right now, they fill almost the exact same role as a Wraith. But without the 3++.

Well short of epic failure by GW(seeing they are the ones that told us the points) the price drop is true.

Guess depending on terrain you have they might have SOME use for counter charging but I would still pay the 4 pts more for lychguard. You can get buffed by immortal to hit on 2+ and you have 4++ which at least gives them SOME survivability. There's so much D2 weapons out there the W2 is less impressive than it sounds alas :-/

Well at least you aren't totally screwing yourself anymore. Semi competive they could work semi okay

Praetorians can't be buffed by My Will be Done as they lack the dynasty keyword. They have their own strat that lets gives them +1 to hit though. I think D2 weaponry isn't nearly as prevalent as it was. Outside of Leviathans, marines are spamming D1 for the most part. Also they won't be high priority targets. They'll basically do the same job 5 man intercessor squads do, camping objectives are being irritatingly difficult to remove for their points. They cost slightly more, but they're Str5/T5, fly and move 10". Honestly, at 20pts per model I think they could be alright.

.. nor need they, being immune to moral and all.

I think at 20 points you don't even care about Praetorians charging into things - you use them as bulky flying objective grabbers and put the onus on the opponent to interact with them. T5 is awkward to deal with for a lot of armies and will draw fire that would otherwise go to a doomsday ark - and if they don't deal with your Praetorians, well, you're getting free VP.

torblind wrote:
.. nor need they, being immune to moral and all.

Sorry I meant My Will be Done, Not Immortal Pride.

One thing to think about, is that a unit of 10 Praetorians would require a decent amount of shooting to take down (probably D2 weapons to be effective), and with reanimation and morale immunity they kind of do require a your opponent to take them down in a fast motion. Still, I doubt they'll be useful without any synergies to back them up. Plus, if we don't receive other huge changes, they don't fit into any current lists.

tneva82 wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Assuming the leaks are true, and Praetorians go down a few more points, would they have a niche? Right now, they fill almost the exact same role as a Wraith. But without the 3++.

Well short of epic failure by GW(seeing they are the ones that told us the points) the price drop is true.

Guess depending on terrain you have they might have SOME use for counter charging but I would still pay the 4 pts more for lychguard. You can get buffed by immortal to hit on 2+ and you have 4++ which at least gives them SOME survivability. There's so much D2 weapons out there the W2 is less impressive than it sounds alas :-/

Well at least you aren't totally screwing yourself anymore. Semi competive they could work semi okay

It's still 10-11 points per T5 3+ wound. While D2 can be common, it is not so prevalent that I think jumping through terrain is more worth it than trying to get Lychguard to make a charge.
It almost makes me want to draft a new Necron list but I'll wait for the other point drops first.

Don't believe this crap about people writing off Flayed Ones because the unit was never considered good. Do you know how many people play Warhammer 40K? If they were good as much as you say, they would be recognised as a decent competitive unit. Top competitive players consider all units and synergies to get the most out of them.

Wraiths are more versatile in their play with a good datasheet and abilities. That's why they are regarded better than Flayed Ones.

Flayed Ones are not competitive. Not because no one in the Warhammer community fielded them, but because they are just not good.

elook wrote:

Top competitive players consider all units and synergies to get the most out of them. d.

Top competitive players? I mean... um... So if like I was one of those, and I told you they were good, it sounds like you might beleive me then. Is... that right?

If I saw your name in the top 4 weekly round ups of Majors or GTs using Flayed Ones, or even a top performing list using Flayed Ones, then your point may be worth considering.

I just believe most people here see through your BS and your sake in just arguing with others. Flayed Ones aren't currently a good unit and the facts of that are obvious. Let's hope their points get tweaked to a point that they may be good.

IanVanCheese wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Assuming the leaks are true, and Praetorians go down a few more points, would they have a niche? Right now, they fill almost the exact same role as a Wraith. But without the 3++.

Well short of epic failure by GW(seeing they are the ones that told us the points) the price drop is true.

Guess depending on terrain you have they might have SOME use for counter charging but I would still pay the 4 pts more for lychguard. You can get buffed by immortal to hit on 2+ and you have 4++ which at least gives them SOME survivability. There's so much D2 weapons out there the W2 is less impressive than it sounds alas :-/

Well at least you aren't totally screwing yourself anymore. Semi competive they could work semi okay

Praetorians can't be buffed by My Will be Done as they lack the dynasty keyword. They have their own strat that lets gives them +1 to hit though. I think D2 weaponry isn't nearly as prevalent as it was. Outside of Leviathans, marines are spamming D1 for the most part. Also they won't be high priority targets. They'll basically do the same job 5 man intercessor squads do, camping objectives are being irritatingly difficult to remove for their points. They cost slightly more, but they're Str5/T5, fly and move 10". Honestly, at 20pts per model I think they could be alright.

eh that was my point That's why I prefer lychguard since they can be buffed. You can do 8" charge with reroll so if you are willing to use CP for single charge dice reroll in need you can get respectable 78% charge range. That's more like it. And then you hit on 2+ which is nice to have. The 3+ to hit cuts down on offensive output rather lot. 40k is about alpha striking your opponent off the board in first 2-3 turns so unit that has stinky damage output needs to have some special role and be cheap to be considered. Praetorians aren't cheap.

Doesn’t MWBD also give +1 to charge rolls? Or am I misremembering?

It does, yeah.

 Jancoran wrote:

elook wrote:

Top competitive players consider all units and synergies to get the most out of them. d.

Top competitive players? I mean... um... So if like I was one of those, and I told you they were good, it sounds like you might beleive me then. Is... that right?

I'm pretty sure if flayed ones won a major somebody on this site would know about it other than you

In fairness, Janc never claimed they were competitive; merely that they were somewhere above “trash” when piloted by an ultimate player.

I’m not sure that’s a great argument to make, since pro-level player skill can make nearly anything “not trash” in most circumstances.

tneva82 wrote:
eh that was my point That's why I prefer lychguard since they can be buffed. You can do 8" charge with reroll so if you are willing to use CP for single charge dice reroll in need you can get respectable 78% charge range. That's more like it. And then you hit on 2+ which is nice to have. The 3+ to hit cuts down on offensive output rather lot. 40k is about alpha striking your opponent off the board in first 2-3 turns so unit that has stinky damage output needs to have some special role and be cheap to be considered. Praetorians aren't cheap.

Indeed, if Lychguard also have a point reduction, I still don't see how pretorians could justify themselves. They need something to differentiate them from our other alrealdy not super strong melee options.
I wish both loadout were different in role, right now the Rod is cheaper because it is weaker. With a Rod maybe damage 2, you could maybe start to use them for aircraft hunting.

Shaelinith wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
eh that was my point That's why I prefer lychguard since they can be buffed. You can do 8" charge with reroll so if you are willing to use CP for single charge dice reroll in need you can get respectable 78% charge range. That's more like it. And then you hit on 2+ which is nice to have. The 3+ to hit cuts down on offensive output rather lot. 40k is about alpha striking your opponent off the board in first 2-3 turns so unit that has stinky damage output needs to have some special role and be cheap to be considered. Praetorians aren't cheap.

Indeed, if Lychguard also have a point reduction, I still don't see how pretorians could justify themselves. They need something to differentiate them from our other alrealdy not super strong melee options.
I wish both loadout were different in role, right now the Rod is cheaper because it is weaker. With a Rod maybe damage 2, you could maybe start to use them for aircraft hunting.

The higher AP value on the rod is really good versus MEQ units which lack invuln saves (Which will occupy a higher proportion of the meta). If they are meant to be troop mulchers (Which appears to be their role based on stat lines), an update for anti-Primaris (such as D2 like you suggest) would be quite good for this.

With the rod you could shoot first the charge in and do almost as much damage as with the pistol and blade load out.

This could be nice if you don't necessarily want to linger in CC (could jump out and still shoot something at least).

And the rod looks way cooler

sieGermans wrote:
The higher AP value on the rod is really good versus MEQ units which lack invuln saves (Which will occupy a higher proportion of the meta). If they are meant to be troop mulchers (Which appears to be their role based on stat lines), an update for anti-Primaris (such as D2 like you suggest) would be quite good for this.

Clearly necron become more relevant when marines are higher in the meta, at least when they don't all have a stormshield for 2 points like it was the case with Deathwatch.

With D2 on the rod, praetorians would be maybe enter the lychguard with scythes territory, but at least they would bring something different. Lychguard with scythe should also hit harder against vehicule imo. These things were the ultimate can opener before, now they are not that great.

torblind wrote:
With the rod you could shoot first the charge in and do almost as much damage as with the pistol and blade load out.

This could be nice if you don't necessarily want to linger in CC (could jump out and still shoot something at least).

And the rod looks way cooler

Of course rods looks cooler =)

Shooting before charging is very hit or miss to me. Worst case scenario you miss your charge entirely, but sometimes you still make the charge but bring less bodies to melee range. Gameplay wise Voidblades are better for me.

I would love in CA 2019 if the Seraptek Heavy Construct shaved maybe 25-50 points. Considering there is no ability to rotate ion shields, its semi-squishy.

Make that 100 pts. Compare it to an imperial knight which is about 150 pts. cheaper.

Shaelinith wrote:

sieGermans wrote:
The higher AP value on the rod is really good versus MEQ units which lack invuln saves (Which will occupy a higher proportion of the meta). If they are meant to be troop mulchers (Which appears to be their role based on stat lines), an update for anti-Primaris (such as D2 like you suggest) would be quite good for this.

Clearly necron become more relevant when marines are higher in the meta, at least when they don't all have a stormshield for 2 points like it was the case with Deathwatch.

With D2 on the rod, praetorians would be maybe enter the lychguard with scythes territory, but at least they would bring something different. Lychguard with scythe should also hit harder against vehicule imo. These things were the ultimate can opener before, now they are not that great.

torblind wrote:
With the rod you could shoot first the charge in and do almost as much damage as with the pistol and blade load out.

This could be nice if you don't necessarily want to linger in CC (could jump out and still shoot something at least).

And the rod looks way cooler

Of course rods looks cooler =)

Shooting before charging is very hit or miss to me. Worst case scenario you miss your charge entirely, but sometimes you still make the charge but bring less bodies to melee range. Gameplay wise Voidblades are better for me.

But you always shoot before charge anyway, right? It's more a matter of if you plan to stay in CC for more turns to finish them off or if you jump out for fun elsewhere. The number of 3+ to hit, S5 AP-3, for the first turn of engagement is still the same.

Of course you might not have LoS before charging, you'd just have to factor that in.

Rod of Covenant is strictly worse then the staff of light which is what they should have been armed with to begin with. I guess someone at GW thought a unit of those would be broken, but apparently a marine can have a 36" -2 D2 basic gun

torblind wrote:
But you always shoot before charge anyway, right? It's more a matter of if you plan to stay in CC for more turns to finish them off or if you jump out for fun elsewhere. The number of 3+ to hit, S5 AP-3, for the first turn of engagement is still the same.

Of course you might not have LoS before charging, you'd just have to factor that in.

As you are not forced to shoot, it would really depends on the distance between prets and their target. at 7" or more, i would probably not shoot if by removing a mini, my opponent can push me to the 8" or more range. It also depends on the terrain of course, and other factors, but in the end, i prefer more attacks than a shoot and less attacks.

One shot per pret is not enough to risk losing the charge after that, unless the target are monster in melee, but in this case you're pretty much toasted anyway.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Rod of Covenant is strictly worse then the staff of light which is what they should have been armed with to begin with. I guess someone at GW thought a unit of those would be broken, but apparently a marine can have a 36" -2 D2 basic gun

I would totally play Prets with staff of light ! At least they would be a very distinct profile.
I also don't understand how every marines HQ brings a D2 (or more) bolter when our staff of light are D1 (unless relic) for half the range and twice the cost.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Rod of Covenant is strictly worse then the staff of light which is what they should have been armed with to begin with. I guess someone at GW thought a unit of those would be broken, but apparently a marine can have a 36" -2 D2 basic gun

Well if you want the weight of attacks at least the Voidblade isn't that bad at 22 points.

Shooting is something they'll never do well without more shots though, agreed.

One thing to consider with Praetorians is that Imotekh (and Anrakyr, who I suspect is going to get a decent price cut) can give them MWBD.

The voidblade variant kick out a respectable number of attacks in melee, and the plus one strength strategem enables them to do 2 things:

Wound, and more than likely kill GEQ on 2+
Wound most fliers on a 4+

So they are close to blending two qualities, weight of dice and strong AP, forcing difficult saves.

Unfortunately, they do rely on getting into combat to do the business and the AP is often wasted when attacking something with a 4++

They're a mixed bag, being good at a few things but not great at anything. I have a big soft spot for them and love the fact they can take down flyers in melee, the mental image of ten of them wailing on a stormhawk interceptor is brilliant.

I think GW missed a wide open goal when they made Judgement of the Triarch a +1 to hit strategem not a +1 to wound. They are niche enough to get something like that and it would make them genuinely threatening to a lot of stuff