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It takes you from an 8/9 hit rate to a 35/36, or an improvement of less than 10%.

If you're running into hit penalties, it's probably a lot more worth it, but with a normal hit rate, probably not.

 iGuy91 wrote:
What is the math regarding a unit of destroyers hammering a suped-up squad of GK paladins? Is that a worthwhile use of them?
Also, curious. Is MWBD worth throwing onto a destroyer unit that will be getting EP?

Redoubtable Defence (-1 D), Sanctuary (4++) and Armoured Resilience (-1 to wound) or is there something else?

*18 shots
*16 hits
*10,67 wounds
*5,33 unsaved wounds
*Complicated maths lead to roughly 2 dead

Destroyers going from +1 to +2 to hit multiplies damage output by 0,97, going from +0 to +1 multiplies damage by 1,06, going from -1 to +0 multiplies damage by 1,33, going from -2 to -1 multiplies damage by 1,5, going from -3 to -2 multiplies damage by 2.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It takes you from an 8/9 hit rate to a 35/36...

34/36, you have to re-roll your "failed" hit rolls of 2.

 vict0988 wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
What is the math regarding a unit of destroyers hammering a suped-up squad of GK paladins? Is that a worthwhile use of them?
Also, curious. Is MWBD worth throwing onto a destroyer unit that will be getting EP?

Redoubtable Defence (-1 D), Sanctuary (4++) and Armoured Resilience (-1 to wound) or is there something else?

*18 shots
*16 hits
*10,67 wounds
*5,33 unsaved wounds
*Complicated maths lead to roughly 2 dead

Destroyers going from +1 to +2 to hit multiplies damage output by 0,97, going from +0 to +1 multiplies damage by 1,06, going from -1 to +0 multiplies damage by 1,33, going from -2 to -1 multiplies damage by 1,5, going from -3 to -2 multiplies damage by 2.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It takes you from an 8/9 hit rate to a 35/36...

34/36, you have to re-roll your "failed" hit rolls of 2.

Oh damn, really? It's not a "may" or "can"?

That's some hot malarky there.

Also, if they don't use the -1 Wound Power, they still have Transhuman Physiology, which makes any wounds of 1-3 automatically fail, so you're never wounding them on 3+ if the GK player doesn't want you to.

"Re-roll failed hit and wound rolls for that unit until the end of the phase." Nothing less, nothing more.

Transhuman Physiology actually makes Destroyers better if your opponent is also using the -1 to wound power since it allows you to re-roll the "successful" wounds that won't wound after modifiers since with the Stratagem they fail before and after modifiers not just after.

 vict0988 wrote:
"Re-roll failed hit and wound rolls for that unit until the end of the phase." Nothing less, nothing more.

Transhuman Physiology actually makes Destroyers better if your opponent is also using the -1 to wound power since it allows you to re-roll the "successful" wounds that won't wound after modifiers since with the Stratagem they fail before and after modifiers not just after.

No opponent is gonna use both-they both take you from a 3+ to a 4+ to-wound, and nothing more, so it's one or the other.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
"Re-roll failed hit and wound rolls for that unit until the end of the phase." Nothing less, nothing more.

Transhuman Physiology actually makes Destroyers better if your opponent is also using the -1 to wound power since it allows you to re-roll the "successful" wounds that won't wound after modifiers since with the Stratagem they fail before and after modifiers not just after.

No opponent is gonna use both-they both take you from a 3+ to a 4+ to-wound, and nothing more, so it's one or the other.

My friend used both Transhuman Physiology AND the -1 to my wound rolls power to push my wound rolls up to 5+ before. Is this not allowed?

v0iddrgn wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
"Re-roll failed hit and wound rolls for that unit until the end of the phase." Nothing less, nothing more.

Transhuman Physiology actually makes Destroyers better if your opponent is also using the -1 to wound power since it allows you to re-roll the "successful" wounds that won't wound after modifiers since with the Stratagem they fail before and after modifiers not just after.

No opponent is gonna use both-they both take you from a 3+ to a 4+ to-wound, and nothing more, so it's one or the other.

My friend used both Transhuman Physiology AND the -1 to my wound rolls power to push my wound rolls up to 5+ before. Is this not allowed?

No, that's now how they interact. Transhuman Strat affects rolls pre-modifiers, it doesn't turn a modified roll of 3 into a fail if it was originally a successful 4.

You lost me. The example isn't with my Destroyers but with Impaler Cannons. He used Transhuman to push them from wounding on 2's to wounding on 4's and then the -1 wound power kicked in after that pushing successful wounds to a 5+. No rerolls were available at the time.

v0iddrgn wrote:
You lost me. The example isn't with my Destroyers but with Impaler Cannons. He used Transhuman to push them from wounding on 2's to wounding on 4's and then the -1 wound power kicked in after that pushing successful wounds to a 5+. No rerolls were available at the time.

Transhuman Physiology makes unmodified 1s, 2s, and 3s fail.

So, let's say you get 6 wound rolls. You roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. You would then remove the 1, 2, and 3 immediately, due to Transhuman Physiology-they just fail, no modifiers allowed. You'd then look at the remaining dice, apply modifiers as appropriate, and check S vs. T.

 JNAProductions wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:
You lost me. The example isn't with my Destroyers but with Impaler Cannons. He used Transhuman to push them from wounding on 2's to wounding on 4's and then the -1 wound power kicked in after that pushing successful wounds to a 5+. No rerolls were available at the time.

Transhuman Physiology makes unmodified 1s, 2s, and 3s fail.

So, let's say you get 6 wound rolls. You roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. You would then remove the 1, 2, and 3 immediately, due to Transhuman Physiology-they just fail, no modifiers allowed. You'd then look at the remaining dice, apply modifiers as appropriate, and check S vs. T.

So, he did it correctly pushing my successful wounds from 2+ to 5+ with the combination of those two things since the modifier comes AFTER Transhuman.

v0iddrgn wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:
You lost me. The example isn't with my Destroyers but with Impaler Cannons. He used Transhuman to push them from wounding on 2's to wounding on 4's and then the -1 wound power kicked in after that pushing successful wounds to a 5+. No rerolls were available at the time.

Transhuman Physiology makes unmodified 1s, 2s, and 3s fail.

So, let's say you get 6 wound rolls. You roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. You would then remove the 1, 2, and 3 immediately, due to Transhuman Physiology-they just fail, no modifiers allowed. You'd then look at the remaining dice, apply modifiers as appropriate, and check S vs. T.

So, he did it correctly pushing my successful wounds from 2+ to 5+ with the combination of those two things since the modifier comes AFTER Transhuman.

No.

You remove any dice showing 1-3. That's what Transhuman does-once that's done, it has no more effect.

A modified 3 is unaffected by Transhuman Physiology, provided it came from a 4 or higher on die.

 JNAProductions wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:
You lost me. The example isn't with my Destroyers but with Impaler Cannons. He used Transhuman to push them from wounding on 2's to wounding on 4's and then the -1 wound power kicked in after that pushing successful wounds to a 5+. No rerolls were available at the time.

Transhuman Physiology makes unmodified 1s, 2s, and 3s fail.

So, let's say you get 6 wound rolls. You roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. You would then remove the 1, 2, and 3 immediately, due to Transhuman Physiology-they just fail, no modifiers allowed. You'd then look at the remaining dice, apply modifiers as appropriate, and check S vs. T.

So, he did it correctly pushing my successful wounds from 2+ to 5+ with the combination of those two things since the modifier comes AFTER Transhuman.

No.

You remove any dice showing 1-3. That's what Transhuman does-once that's done, it has no more effect.

A modified 3 is unaffected by Transhuman Physiology, provided it came from a 4 or higher on die.

What about any 4's rolled? Are they fails since the -1 to wound power is in effect?

v0iddrgn wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:
You lost me. The example isn't with my Destroyers but with Impaler Cannons. He used Transhuman to push them from wounding on 2's to wounding on 4's and then the -1 wound power kicked in after that pushing successful wounds to a 5+. No rerolls were available at the time.

Transhuman Physiology makes unmodified 1s, 2s, and 3s fail.

So, let's say you get 6 wound rolls. You roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. You would then remove the 1, 2, and 3 immediately, due to Transhuman Physiology-they just fail, no modifiers allowed. You'd then look at the remaining dice, apply modifiers as appropriate, and check S vs. T.

So, he did it correctly pushing my successful wounds from 2+ to 5+ with the combination of those two things since the modifier comes AFTER Transhuman.

No.

You remove any dice showing 1-3. That's what Transhuman does-once that's done, it has no more effect.

A modified 3 is unaffected by Transhuman Physiology, provided it came from a 4 or higher on die.

What about any 4's rolled? Are they fails since the -1 to wound power is in effect?

If you have a Strength greater than their Toughness, no.

Natural 1s, 2s, and 3s get removed. Then everything else proceeds normally.

 JNAProductions wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:
You lost me. The example isn't with my Destroyers but with Impaler Cannons. He used Transhuman to push them from wounding on 2's to wounding on 4's and then the -1 wound power kicked in after that pushing successful wounds to a 5+. No rerolls were available at the time.

Transhuman Physiology makes unmodified 1s, 2s, and 3s fail.

So, let's say you get 6 wound rolls. You roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. You would then remove the 1, 2, and 3 immediately, due to Transhuman Physiology-they just fail, no modifiers allowed. You'd then look at the remaining dice, apply modifiers as appropriate, and check S vs. T.

So, he did it correctly pushing my successful wounds from 2+ to 5+ with the combination of those two things since the modifier comes AFTER Transhuman.

No.

You remove any dice showing 1-3. That's what Transhuman does-once that's done, it has no more effect.

A modified 3 is unaffected by Transhuman Physiology, provided it came from a 4 or higher on die.

What about any 4's rolled? Are they fails since the -1 to wound power is in effect?

If you have a Strength greater than their Toughness, no.

Natural 1s, 2s, and 3s get removed. Then everything else proceeds normally.

Re-rolls first of all, just making sure nobody reading this gets the wrong idea.

 vict0988 wrote:
Re-rolls first of all, just making sure nobody reading this gets the wrong idea.

Well, the poster I'm responding to didn't have rerolls.

But, just for clarity, here's the order of operations for shooting a Marine unit with Transhuman Physiology AND -1 to-wound.

1) Roll dice
2) Reroll as appropriate
3) Remove any dice showing 1, 2, or 3
4) Apply modifiers
5) Compared ending results to the SvT table

 JNAProductions wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
Re-rolls first of all, just making sure nobody reading this gets the wrong idea.

Well, the poster I'm responding to didn't have rerolls.

But, just for clarity, here's the order of operations for shooting a Marine unit with Transhuman Physiology AND -1 to-wound.

1) Roll dice
2) Reroll as appropriate
3) Remove any dice showing 1, 2, or 3
4) Apply modifiers
5) Compared ending results to the SvT table

Right, it sucks when your DDA's suddenly have to roll 5+ to wound GK infantry.

v0iddrgn wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
Re-rolls first of all, just making sure nobody reading this gets the wrong idea.

Well, the poster I'm responding to didn't have rerolls.

But, just for clarity, here's the order of operations for shooting a Marine unit with Transhuman Physiology AND -1 to-wound.

1) Roll dice
2) Reroll as appropriate
3) Remove any dice showing 1, 2, or 3
4) Apply modifiers
5) Compared ending results to the SvT table

Right, it sucks when your DDA's suddenly have to roll 5+ to wound GK infantry.

Which they'll never have to. The worst is 4+, with Transhuman.

Also, no Necrons in PA Pariah. Sadface


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
Re-rolls first of all, just making sure nobody reading this gets the wrong idea.

Well, the poster I'm responding to didn't have rerolls.

But, just for clarity, here's the order of operations for shooting a Marine unit with Transhuman Physiology AND -1 to-wound

1) Roll dice
2) Reroll as appropriate
3) Remove any dice showing 1, 2, or 3
4) Apply modifiers
5) Compared ending results to the SvT table

Right, it sucks when your DDA's suddenly have to roll 5+ to wound GK infantry.

Which they'll never have to. The worst is 4+, with Transhuman.

Yes, with Tranhuman plus the -1 to wound modifier GK psychic power (Armoured Resilience).

Transhuman and ARmored Resilience DO NOT STACK.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Transhuman and ARmored Resilience DO NOT STACK.

After reviewing them both I see no resean why not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Modifiers happen AFTER everything and are applied to the final result, meaning Transhuman removes 1's-3's then Armoured Resilience applies the -1 to the roll, thus Doomsday Cannon's go from wounding on 2+ to wounding on 5+.

v0iddrgn wrote:

Modifiers happen AFTER everything and are applied to the final result, meaning Transhuman removes 1's-3's then Armoured Resilience applies the -1 to the roll, thus Doomsday Cannon's go from wounding on 2+ to wounding on 5+.

This is not how its played. Transhuman removes unmodified 1s-3s. A DDA usually wounds infantry on 2+ with its cannon. Thus, a roll of 3 is required to wound, because of armoured resilience -1 to wound. But, because there arent any 3s anymore, only whats left wounds infantry, which is 4s-6s.

2. Wound Roll: If an attack scores
a hit, you will then need to roll
another dice to see if the attack
successfully wounds the target.
The roll required is determined
by comparing the attacking
weapon’s Strength characteristic
with the target’s Toughness
characteristic, as shown on the
following table:

Is the Strength
TWICE (or more)
than the Toughness?

2+

v0iddrgn wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Transhuman and ARmored Resilience DO NOT STACK.

After reviewing them both I see no resean why not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Modifiers happen AFTER everything and are applied to the final result, meaning Transhuman removes 1's-3's then Armoured Resilience applies the -1 to the roll, thus Doomsday Cannon's go from wounding on 2+ to wounding on 5+.

Are you trolling?

"Use this Stratagem when a GREY KNIGHTS unit from your army that is not a VEHICLE or a SERVITOR is chosen as a target for an attack. Until the end of the phase, when resolving an attack made against that unit, an unmodified wound roll of 1-3 always fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or the model making that attack may have."

"Until the end of the phase, when resolving an attack made against that unit, an unmodified wound roll of 1-3 always fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or the model making that attack may have."

"an unmodified wound roll of 1-3 always fails"

"an unmodified"

"unmodified"

If you apply a -1 to a 4 that turns it into a 3 then it's a modified 3 and an unmodified 4.

You are wrong. It's in the designer's commentary that they stack the way I stated earlier.

v0iddrgn wrote:
You are wrong. It's in the designer's commentary that they stack the way I stated earlier.

What part of the designers' commentary?

Q: If a rule states that an ability triggers on, for example, ‘hit rolls of 6+’, does this refer to the result of the dice rolls before or after modifiers are applied?
A:
It refers to the final result, after re-rolls and modifiers (if any) have been applied.

The only exception to this would be abilities that specifically state, for example, ‘unmodified hit rolls of 6’, or ‘hit rolls of 6 before modifiers are applied.’

v0iddrgn wrote:
You are wrong. It's in the designer's commentary that they stack the way I stated earlier.

What designers commentary ?? They have been removed from the FAQs, and are no longer valid.

Guys let him play it the wrong way if he wants lol.

But if you really want to debate it, take it to YMDC instead. There is no point in explaining it to him for another page or two.

YMDC Thread, for anyone who's interested.

Hi people ! I was wondering what was our best way to deal with T7+ and Sv2+ Monsters / Vehicles beside doom scythes (I already have 3) and DDA (I already have 3).
I am asking this because lately I've been mostly playing my Imp. Knights and my SW, but I don't want my 'crons to collect dust (they are the first army with which I was actually competent for the first time back in 6ed). Yet, I mostly play against Daemons (Bloodthirsters and DP all across the board) and Astra Militarum (Russ heavy).
So I need to devise a tactic to deal with their heavy hitters. Sadly, tesla guns aren't really useful against them and we lost our good old gauss rule back in 7th ed.

What would you recommend me to use ?

Daemons and IG don't... They don't HAVE 2+ models, as far as I'm aware.

Oups, sorry, I made an error. I meant 3+