Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

IanVanCheese wrote:
I mean sure, we can play and win with Necrons, but I struggle to think of a worse faction than us?

Maybe tyranids? Maybe. So yeah, we need buffs. Many of them.

Also on a funny note, anyone else remember the huge arguments we had in this thread about whether our new model was going to be Szeras or Szerak? Looks like everyone's a winner lol.

GSC, and Harlequins (even after the update) for sure, like not even a debate.

With Sisters, Demons, Militarum Tempestus, custodes, Death Guard, T-Sons and Space Wolves as contenders for the victim awards. Most of these armies appear better then they are because of soup, but an army should be judged on its own IMO.


Edit: IMO the biggest issue with Necrons is how bland they have become. Like my Beloved Dark Eldar a ton of the flavor was gutted from the units. Several options are just shadows of what they were, and I don't even mean competitively necessarily. I would just like the flavor back and for some of the more aggregious units like spyders, FO, deathmarks and crypteks to get redone.

In regard to durability, that's not an Necron exclusive issue, it's an 8th edition problem that every army is wary of at this point. Every army is begging for buffs year on year until the lethality is just stupid. Core game needs to fix rerolls and terrain and add some sort of fog of war mechanic.

Yeah I'll take more flavour over power gaming for sure.

I'm hoping crypteks are getting some spice back with the new update, something akin to chaplain abilities but to bring back the old powers they used to have.

I agree that the game as whole need to be altered to fix durability, but a band-aid to help the necrons wouldn't go amiss in the meantime.

It occurs to me that re-rolls are the bane of this edition. I think that's because they wanted the game to be more lethal (they succeeded), which theoretically would encourage us to put more models on the table. But that just exacerbates the problem of lopsided games, and makes games take too long.

Perhaps a limitation on rerolls in the new edition would be a good thing, but it would hurt a lot of units, specifically buffing characters, which they want to sell lots of due to better profit per model.

 Red Corsair wrote:

With Sisters, Demons, Militarum Tempestus, custodes, Death Guard, T-Sons and Space Wolves as contenders for the victim awards. Most of these armies appear better then they are because of soup, but an army should be judged on its own IMO.

Sisters have been showing nice results before lockdowns.

Though this is 8th. Soup is name of the game. If faction isn't getting mono bonus it should be considered as part of soup rather than artificial restrictions.

IanVanCheese wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
I mean sure, we can play and win with Necrons, but I struggle to think of a worse faction than us?

Maybe tyranids? Maybe. So yeah, we need buffs. Many of them.

Also on a funny note, anyone else remember the huge arguments we had in this thread about whether our new model was going to be Szeras or Szerak? Looks like everyone's a winner lol.

Worse? Sisters of Silence. Theres literally one build for them. One. My buddy is trying to learn them. A braver man I've never known. But he's really good and he scores well in his losses. Lol.

I think Imperial KNights in general suffer right now.

Dark Angels perpetually it seems.

Tyranids are "ok" but Necrons kinda have their number. Too much withering firepower for bugs to handle while the Wraiths and Swarms just interminable tie them up.

I'd take Necrons over those choices.

I mean we could even venture into some of the Chaos Marine stuff while we're at it... Models are cool tho. Death gaurd can be real good, and some niche builds will give necrons hell, but i wouldnt call that an unfair fight in MOST of those matchups.

So... I dunno.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll wrote:
The difficulty is that Warriors exist to be buffed by characters. Warriors with a Cryptek invulnerability field are a bit harder to remove. Annoying part of that is that Crypteks are VERY easy to remove. Eliminators especially, but all snipers make Necrons sad.

Yeah Sniper are an issue for the Necrons for sure and none worse than Raven Guard in round one.

Sisters of Silence are not a real faction, come on now.

Sure, we have tyranids number. But in the grand scheme of balance, they're probably on par with us (they beat some armies that beat us).

Dark Angels are marines. Even the worst marines are head and shoulders above us, even if we have an OK match up against them (again, balance across the whole game, Dark Angels will beat more factions than we will).

Knights maybe, but they can be souped with a whole manner of excellent armies and they're a rough match up for us by themselves too.

I think when we're scraping the barrel of sisters of silence trying to find worse factions than us, it's a pretty good sign that we're one of the worst factions lol.

Luckily, that might all be about to change.

Well i dont share that appraisal. Sisters of Silence are certainly bad but they are a faction.

Tyranids are definitely not better. I don't think Tyranids are bad, because I play a guy who does serious work with his and its not even a truly meta list, though its developing into one that is closer. Necrons will still whoop them. They destroy an entire gaunt squad per round. A simple halo and the Genestealers are f'd. I dunno. I have a higher opinion of Tyranids.

I REALLY dont think Dark Angels have much that I think is insurmountable but i will totally agre that they are marines and are very tough, and you will absolutely have to play well but I call that a pick em game unlesss they are just not playing a typical Dark Angel list. Which could happen.

Knights are bad. No buffing can save them. Cant even recall the last time i didnt school a Knight list... They are cool loooooooking?

My only point is that we dont qualify for the bottom. I didn't say it was the top. It's floating i nthe middle of the lower tier somewhere. My friend Devin does a great job of sterring ecrons nd I dont struggle much with them which leads me to think that this is a little overblown but i also condedd that my recent game schedule has not allowed me time to practice recently with them so perhaps i would feel differently now. Like i said i might pull them out and test my mettle today with them. I use a fairly atypical list for Necrons which fits my own proclivities as a player which is something you always have to consider too. Sometimes its just that people aren't very flexible in what they are willing to play. Ive found plenty of people here that certainly dont like unorthodox ideas so it could be as simple as a certain pattern being too familiar to people.

I just encountered this. I was exhorted to look into Celestians (not to be confused with St. Celestine) who have been terrible since time began. Now they are one of the most points efficient killers I've seen. They should average 20 dead MEQ (or 10 Primaris) without any gear. Just them. 100 points. THAT is efficient. So in a larger army that allows for the CP, they are absolutely terrifying. Takes out entire ork mobs, takes out entire Primaris units... and God help you if you are T3. Yet its not a unit that gets ANY press.

So this same thing happens to other armies.

 Jancoran wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
I mean sure, we can play and win with Necrons, but I struggle to think of a worse faction than us?

Maybe tyranids? Maybe. So yeah, we need buffs. Many of them.

Also on a funny note, anyone else remember the huge arguments we had in this thread about whether our new model was going to be Szeras or Szerak? Looks like everyone's a winner lol.

Worse? Sisters of Silence. Theres literally one build for them. One. My buddy is trying to learn them. A braver man I've never known. But he's really good and he scores well in his losses. Lol.

I think Imperial KNights in general suffer right now.

Dark Angels perpetually it seems.

Tyranids are "ok" but Necrons kinda have their number. Too much withering firepower for bugs to handle while the Wraiths and Swarms just interminable tie them up.

I'd take Necrons over those choices.

I mean we could even venture into some of the Chaos Marine stuff while we're at it... Models are cool tho. Death gaurd can be real good, and some niche builds will give necrons hell, but i wouldnt call that an unfair fight in MOST of those matchups.

So... I dunno.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll wrote:
The difficulty is that Warriors exist to be buffed by characters. Warriors with a Cryptek invulnerability field are a bit harder to remove. Annoying part of that is that Crypteks are VERY easy to remove. Eliminators especially, but all snipers make Necrons sad.

Yeah Sniper are an issue for the Necrons for sure and none worse than Raven Guard in round one.

Sisters of Silence are not a real faction, come on now.

Sure, we have tyranids number. But in the grand scheme of balance, they're probably on par with us (they beat some armies that beat us).

Dark Angels are marines. Even the worst marines are head and shoulders above us, even if we have an OK match up against them (again, balance across the whole game, Dark Angels will beat more factions than we will).

Knights maybe, but they can be souped with a whole manner of excellent armies and they're a rough match up for us by themselves too.

I think when we're scraping the barrel of sisters of silence trying to find worse factions than us, it's a pretty good sign that we're one of the worst factions lol.

Luckily, that might all be about to change.

Well i dont share that appraisal. Sisters of Silence are certainly bad but they are a faction.

Tyranids are definitely not better. I don't think Tyranids are bad, because I play a guy who does serious work with his and its not even a truly meta list, though its developing into one that is closer. Necrons will still whoop them. They destroy an entire gaunt squad per round. A simple halo and the Genestealers are f'd. I dunno. I have a higher opinion of Tyranids.

I REALLY dont think Dark Angels have much that I think is insurmountable but i will totally agre that they are marines and are very tough, and you will absolutely have to play well but I call that a pick em game unlesss they are just not playing a typical Dark Angel list. Which could happen.

Knights are bad. No buffing can save them. Cant even recall the last time i didnt school a Knight list... They are cool loooooooking?

My only point is that we dont qualify for the bottom. I didn't say it was the top. It's floating i nthe middle of the lower tier somewhere. My friend Devin does a great job of sterring ecrons nd I dont struggle much with them which leads me to think that this is a little overblown but i also condedd that my recent game schedule has not allowed me time to practice recently with them so perhaps i would feel differently now. Like i said i might pull them out and test my mettle today with them. I use a fairly atypical list for Necrons which fits my own proclivities as a player which is something you always have to consider too. Sometimes its just that people aren't very flexible in what they are willing to play. Ive found plenty of people here that certainly dont like unorthodox ideas so it could be as simple as a certain pattern being too familiar to people.

I just encountered this. I was exhorted to look into Celestians (not to be confused with St. Celestine) who have been terrible since time began. Now they are one of the most points efficient killers I've seen. They should average 20 dead MEQ (or 10 Primaris) without any gear. Just them. 100 points. THAT is efficient. So in a larger army that allows for the CP, they are absolutely terrifying. Takes out entire ork mobs, takes out entire Primaris units... and God help you if you are T3. Yet its not a unit that gets ANY press.

So this same thing happens to other armies.

Off topic but yeah, I've been eyeing up Celestians for sure. The only downside is that they take up an elite slot which is usually filled with imagifiers, but they're beasts (and they can protect your Imagifiers if you're running them, which is added hotness).

Not the worst no, but we've been consistently bad for this entire edition and along with tyranids we're the biggest major faction to suck so much. It's hard to feel bad for dark angels not being top tier when a million other marine variants exist.

Does anyone have experience with the WL trait that makes units immune to morale? How effective was it?

Those of you that have experience using said WL trait, how much of an impact do you think army wide morale immunity would have?

punisher357 wrote:
Does anyone have experience with the WL trait that makes units immune to morale? How effective was it?

Those of you that have experience using said WL trait, how much of an impact do you think army wide morale immunity would have?

Immortal Pride is great for warrior blobs, but situational otherwise. Our leadership is so high that it only really comes into play with 10 man immortal squads that have lost 7+ models.

Hyperlogical Strategist or Thrall of the Silent King are my go to choices usually.

punisher357 wrote:
Does anyone have experience with the WL trait that makes units immune to morale? How effective was it?

Those of you that have experience using said WL trait, how much of an impact do you think army wide morale immunity would have?

Essential if you have 2-3 big warrior blobs but just makes those bad units to need it.

Myself being nephrek I go for -1 to hit or reroll charges if I'm throwing in lychguard around to propel them on T1 into charge.

It's also not army wide as it's limited range and if you stay in that with army you struggle with objectives.

In summary, if Necrons had army wide immunity to morale it would make our worst unit better and make little difference elsewhere...

MrPieChee wrote:
In summary, if Necrons had army wide immunity to morale it would make our worst unit better and make little difference elsewhere...

I think you can frame this either as a negative or a positive.

You can either say it the way you did, or...

"Necron's already possess high Leadership and their RP mechanic forces the opponent to focus on inefficiently eliminating entire units; such that morale is either not a problem or does not arise in the first place--making morale immunity unnecessary."

Immortal Pride looks good on paper but, as others have said, it doesn't do much in practice because the main unit it's helpful for is Warriors, who aren't very good. Also, as the edition as evolved even removing 20 T4 4+/5++ save models in one turn isn't that difficult for a lot of armies anyway. I usually use Thrall of the Silent King on a CCB (Add Lightning Field for extra lols!). I guess if Necrons get a strat to double up on WL traits we might see it more, but there are probably better options even then.

Just my 2p, but I have yet to leave army creation without Hyperlogical Strategist

With the exception of a couple meme builds for friendly shiggles games, I haven't ever been able to justify anything else. It's kinda annoying, because I would really like to try something else, but the options make it hard.

edit: spelling

I never leave home without Immortal Pride. I usually run x20 warriors and 2x10 Immortals, or 3x10 Immortals. I make my opponents commit to wiping them out fully, or they skip the morale phase, run out of LOS, and start regenerating.

My 5+ rolls to regain command points are absolutely atrocious. I think in the 4-5 games i've used Hyperlogical Stratagist....I've regained maybe 1 command point. Its let me down every time i've used it.

I've had games where it did nothing, and I've had games where it's taken my 9CP pool and I've played with 15

You could roughly compare Immortal Pride with spending 2CP for auto-pass morale.

If Hyperlogical Strategist nets you 4-6 CP, well that's three turns worth of autopass morale Warlord Trait.. for one unit each turn

In games where moral rolls aren't important, you lose out. If you dont need to pass more than 2-3 moral rolls in a game, at worst, to play to the strengths of your strategy, then perhaps HS covers
everything IP would have given you.

torblind wrote:
You could roughly compare Immortal Pride with spending 2CP for auto-pass morale.

If Hyperlogical Strategist nets you 4-6 CP, well that's three turns worth of autopass morale Warlord Trait.. for one unit each turn

In games where moral rolls aren't important, you lose out. If you dont need to pass more than 2-3 moral rolls in a game, at worst, to play to the strengths of your strategy, then perhaps HS covers
everything IP would have given you.

Theoretically you're correct, but the problem I have with IP is that wiping units out fully is just good play in 40k in general and against Necrons it's an even better idea. Combined with the increase in lethality in 8th that means big blobs of Warriors tend to either get shot off the board in one turn or left alone until they can be dealt with in one turn. Under those conditions I've never really seen IP work often enough to be worth it.

At 1,000 or 1,500, Immortal Pride can be amazingly helpful. Silver Tide!

It sounds like, in most cases and most people's experience, morale doesn't cause a unit to be lost. It's wiped out and denied reanimation by the opponent's firepower.

I wonder if morale or immunity to it is negligible specifically because players aren't using ghost arks and warriors. I'll have to play test games using warriors, ghost arks, and a house rule making Necrons immune to morale. Maybe I can get some useful information to share.

edit: spelling

I haven't used my 60 Warriors at all yet in 8th.
Been too focused on not being forced to take them and being able to run Scarabs, Spyders, Sentry Pylons, all the fun things I couldn't run because of the old FOC and mandatory Warriors.

I was always a fan of warriors and ghost arks. I liked throwing all those dice! Changes to the game, weapons, transport, etc....well the current codex doesn't really make them much fun.

Sadly, the codex overall lacks synergy. I know that it was supposedly play tested but I find that hard to believe. I definitely resent Front Line for their role in it, but that's just my own opinion.

It doesn't make much sense to me how things interact with each other. Seems to be haphazardly thrown together.

 iGuy91 wrote:
I never leave home without Immortal Pride. I usually run x20 warriors and 2x10 Immortals, or 3x10 Immortals. I make my opponents commit to wiping them out fully, or they skip the morale phase, run out of LOS, and start regenerating.

My 5+ rolls to regain command points are absolutely atrocious. I think in the 4-5 games i've used Hyperlogical Stratagist....I've regained maybe 1 command point. Its let me down every time i've used it.

They focus fire them anyway. And it's not like necron infantry is hard to remove in one go except wraiths who don't have rp except with inefficient stratagem

tneva82 wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
I never leave home without Immortal Pride. I usually run x20 warriors and 2x10 Immortals, or 3x10 Immortals. I make my opponents commit to wiping them out fully, or they skip the morale phase, run out of LOS, and start regenerating.

My 5+ rolls to regain command points are absolutely atrocious. I think in the 4-5 games i've used Hyperlogical Stratagist....I've regained maybe 1 command point. Its let me down every time i've used it.

They focus fire them anyway. And it's not like necron infantry is hard to remove in one go except wraiths who don't have rp except with inefficient stratagem

It can be mitigated by playing with LOS rules from ITC, area terrain, and for the warriors a chronometron cryptek nearby. You just pull casualties until the squad is out of los. And they never roll a save worse than a 5+

Whelp boys, looks like meat may be back on the Menu!

Not just a bunch of new models, but if the rules of evening out CP points and not rewarding soup will be pretty huge.

Just wanted to throw some tin foil out there. The large guy has the spines on his back, if you look at the codex so does the one infantry model but not the others. The models look to be, from left to right, Immortal, Warrior, Lynch Guard (he has the axe in hand)

Actually, looks to be a Lord with Warglaive of some sorts. Those spines are VERY Tyranid like.

*EDIT: This is a lord due to the head, but the guy on the dex still looks like a normal immortal but with the spines. WHAT IS GOING ON HERE.

Hmm! Most of these new necron models and aesthetics look like god awful gak!

 MoonlightSonata wrote:
Hmm! Most of these new necron models and aesthetics look like god awful gak!

I like that their faces don't look like 60's aliens any more.

I'm also curious about that gauss pistol thingy.

Perhaps we get weapon options throughout? Would be awesome regardless how rules turn out to be


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That spider thingy looks like he has a gauss shooter cc combo weapon. Didn't the Pariahs have that back in the days? (Before my time)

I don't like the new sculpts. Way too rounded, not nearly boxy enough. I do like the new 3 legged, 3 armed lord thing, and the 3 legged double handed sword wielding critter in the video. Maybe HtH destroyers without fly? They seem to imply speed in the video.

Well guys, this thread is gonna be lit the feth up this Summer/Fall season. Spotted all manner of leaks today including the new boxset and all models are new sculpts.