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Scarabs were max 6 on the datasheet leaked

torblind wrote:
Scarabs were max 6 on the datasheet leaked

That's almost certainly just because that's what's in the box. Inceptors were 3 man only in Dark imperium, but went up to 6 in the book.

It's not impossible they'll be 6 limit in the codex, but I'd be shocked.


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Asymmetric wrote:
I'm really hoping we can make a total blitz melee crons Novokh list with some real teeth now. Something built around a core of:

Outrider battalion (do we really care about playing down 3cp? People were successfully take outrider detachments in 8th with far less CP)

1 Skorpekh lord (loaded up with nastiest relic & warlord trait possible)
~18 Wraiths
~12 Skorpekh destroyers + 2 plasma (i'm assuming there unit size will go up to 6 in the codex).
~9 Scarab Filler.

Should come to around a little over ~1,500 points assuming the rumours for points costs are true for the indomitus kit and wraiths haven't drastically changed. Fill out the rest with fire support / troops / C'tan or whatever else takes my fancy until 2k.

Only thing I'm little concerned over is how quick we can reliably get the Skorpekh destroyers into melee without anyone blowing them off the table first turn.

It's an interesting idea. Very fast, very tough, but lack of ob sec units could hurt. Of course it's filled with units that should mulch other ob sec units, so maybe less of an issue. if points allowed, I'd try to squeeze a cryptek on cloak in there for Skorpekh RP boost (also wraiths/scarabs if you pop the strat)

I really wish Skorpekh had an innate 5++ or something. Just to make them that bit more survivable

 Aza'Gorod wrote:
I really wish Skorpekh had an innate 5++ or something. Just to make them that bit more survivable

It'd be nice, but at the same time get them in cover and they have a two up, they're not getting shot by many Ap-4 weapons so don't think a 5++ would do much for them, and we'd probably pay through the teeth for it. I'm happy with them as they are, especially for the rumoured/leaked 40pts per model cost.

We really got to see how the new Reanimation protocols work and what other protective synergy exist (such as cryteks with chrono).

Skorpekh destroyers should be capable of making mince meat out of most units they charge, but the trick is they do need to live and get off the charge. The problem with regular shooty destoyers is they also usually get shot off the board as soon as come out of line of site, but they are at least usually guaranteed to get one round of shooting off.

Skorpekh destroyers are directly competing with Wraiths in the fast attack slot, which are currently more mobile and under the existing rules more durable. Wraiths actually can take a shooting phase. Wraiths can be charged by other melee units and hold them up and wraiths don't care about terrain. Yeah they might not hit the hardest but more often than not just living and reaching your opponents in melee is the biggest hurdle.

As an aside, while the Skorpekh destroyers may be vulnerable, A Skorpekh Lord with Semipiternal Weave and the Enduring will warlord trait would be a durable monster. T7 W7, 3+, 4++, reducing all damage by 1, living metal, stratagem to get back up, is very hard to chew through for a 130pt model. Whether that configuration will be valid come the new codex remains to be seen.

Asymmetric wrote:
We really got to see how the new Reanimation protocols work and what other protective synergy exist (such as cryteks with chrono).

Skorpekh destroyers should be capable of making mince meat out of most units they charge, but the trick is they do need to live and get off the charge. The problem with regular shooty destoyers is they also usually get shot off the board as soon as come out of line of site, but they are at least usually guaranteed to get one round of shooting off.

Skorpekh destroyers are directly competing with Wraiths in the fast attack slot, which are currently more mobile and under the existing rules more durable. Wraiths actually can take a shooting phase. Wraiths can be charged by other melee units and hold them up and wraiths don't care about terrain. Yeah they might not hit the hardest but more often than not just living and reaching your opponents in melee is the biggest hurdle.

As an aside, while the Skorpekh destroyers may be vulnerable, A Skorpekh Lord with Semipiternal Weave and the Enduring will warlord trait would be a durable monster. T7 W7, 3+, 4++, reducing all damage by 1, living metal, stratagem to get back up, is very hard to chew through for a 130pt model. Whether that configuration will be valid come the new codex remains to be seen.

Slight correction, but Skorpehks are Elites.

I agree they're competing and it looks like staying alive will be more important than killing in 9th. With that said, Skorpekhs are cheaper than wraiths (even before the inevitable pts increase for wraiths), get RP as standard, don't take up a valuable Fast attack slot and are much better at killing. I think units with Reap-blades (still a bad name) will be the way to go. Heavy hitters who mulch three wound infantry and, importantly, 6 wound vehicles, very easily.

Skorpekh lord is a beast for sure.

IanVanCheese wrote:


Slight correction, but Skorpehks are Elites..

Oh that is interesting. I missed that. Just assumed they were fast attack.

Asymmetric wrote:
We really got to see how the new Reanimation protocols work and what other protective synergy exist (such as cryteks with chrono).

Skorpekh destroyers should be capable of making mince meat out of most units they charge, but the trick is they do need to live and get off the charge. The problem with regular shooty destoyers is they also usually get shot off the board as soon as come out of line of site, but they are at least usually guaranteed to get one round of shooting off.

Skorpekh destroyers are directly competing with Wraiths in the fast attack slot, which are currently more mobile and under the existing rules more durable. Wraiths actually can take a shooting phase. Wraiths can be charged by other melee units and hold them up and wraiths don't care about terrain. Yeah they might not hit the hardest but more often than not just living and reaching your opponents in melee is the biggest hurdle.

As an aside, while the Skorpekh destroyers may be vulnerable, A Skorpekh Lord with Semipiternal Weave and the Enduring will warlord trait would be a durable monster. T7 W7, 3+, 4++, reducing all damage by 1, living metal, stratagem to get back up, is very hard to chew through for a 130pt model. Whether that configuration will be valid come the new codex remains to be seen.

RP seems to be the thing that will make or break Skorpekh destroyers IMO. If it works similarly to 7e, they will be significantly better than Wraiths; if it's more like 8e, they'll be questionably survivable for sure. That said, the damage difference is massive! For example, vs Intercessors, damage output per Wraith is 3*(2/3)(2/3)(2/3)*2 = 16/9 = ~1.78 wounds; comparatively, a Skorpekh does:
- 4*(7/9)(2/3)(5/6)*2 = 280/81 = ~3.46 wounds per thresher
- 3*(7/9)(2/3)*2 = 28/9 = ~3.11 wounds per sword (2 due to capped damage)
- 5*(7/9)(2/3)(5/6)*2 = 350/81 = ~4.32 wounds per infused thresher
- 4*(7/9)(5/6)*2 = 140/27 = ~5.19 wounds per infused sword
In the best case, Wraiths do around 57% of the destroyer, 34% worse case, and this is one of the most favourable comparisons for them. There are things like vehicles where the destroyers are almost 3 times as effective; in the above case, it can be more beneficial to get in 3 Skorpekh Destroyers as it is to have 5 Wraiths. It's an interesting comparison though, especially as things are not quite so simple as comparing damage outputs. Wraiths are faster, can fall back without penalty and much tougher; Skorpekhs are deadlier, can use the defensible terrain trait as they're infantry, can be buffed by a lord and get reanimation. So, if RP is good, these guys seem useful.

The comparison to normal destroyers is much more interesting. Their shooting vs threshers is about 5% worse vs T3, 25% worse against T4, the same vs T5, 13% better vs T6 and then 25% worse against T7+, but you also always get it. Compared to the sword, it's more like 20%-40% worse. With infusion, the destroyer shooting is obviously always 40% worse against threshers (same S, AP, D2 vs D D3, but 5 attacks vs 3 shots), and 35%-70% worse than the sword, depending on T and Sv. Both almost always beat heavy destroyers, which are usually around 35% as effective as an uninfused sword. Still, otherwise looking at same survivability and shooty destroyers have more movement, so it depends on if you can ever actually get the Skorpekhs into combat. Also worth noting that is destroyers see no point changes and the rumoured 40pts is correct for Skorpekhs, they come in a good 20% cheaper.

Depressing fact of the day: Eradicators are considerably better at shooting than heavy destroyers, even if they're outside half range and the heavy destroyer gets reroll 1's to wound. It's not even particularly close either, it's about 50% better; without reroll it's 76%. They also fight a little better in melee - same damage output but angels of death swings it. Guess they really felt marines needed another buff.

Eyjio wrote:
Depressing fact of the day: Eradicators are considerably better at shooting than heavy destroyers, even if they're outside half range and the heavy destroyer gets reroll 1's to wound. It's not even particularly close either, it's about 50% better; without reroll it's 76%. They also fight a little better in melee - same damage output but angels of death swings it. Guess they really felt marines needed another buff.

Great analysis, but on that last point, bare in mind that our heavy destroyers are about to be replaced by the Lokhust. Leaked points suggested 70 pts for this thing, but we also have no idea on its gun, statline or capabilities. I think it's safe to assume it'll be tougher than the current heavy destroyer, and has two weapon options at the very least.

I think the Emnitic Exterminator gun could be very interesting based on what we saw from the Skorpekh lord's baby version of it, while it also has a new Gauss weapon, the Gauss Destructor.

IanVanCheese wrote:
Great analysis, but on that last point, bare in mind that our heavy destroyers are about to be replaced by the Lokhust. Leaked points suggested 70 pts for this thing, but we also have no idea on its gun, statline or capabilities. I think it's safe to assume it'll be tougher than the current heavy destroyer, and has two weapon options at the very least.

I think the Emnitic Exterminator gun could be very interesting based on what we saw from the Skorpekh lord's baby version of it, while it also has a new Gauss weapon, the Gauss Destructor.

Sure, that's fair, and goodness only knows something needs to give it a boost. My concern is mostly this - the biggest disadvantage to the current destroyer is that it's quite expensive for what it does, which is largely fire once then melt into oblivion. Skorptekhs have a way around this because if they hit combat, they become largely immune to shooting, or cause the enemy to have to fall back off a potential objective, so they're strong in combat and give a positional advantage. Did we really need yet another expensive model with a big gun? The usefulness of the heavy destroyer currently is that it's relatively cheap, compared to the doomsday ark which is the main competition. If they get more expensive, it's going to make our pre-existing issues of being squishy without cheap dangerous units even worse.

My anticipation would be that the Gauss Destructor will still be a single shot, given that most gauss weapons have approximately the same number of barrels as shots, in which case it will be awful at 70 points pretty much irrespective of anything else. I mean, let me put it like this: to be as good as eradicators at killing a knight at full range, they would need to be flat 5 damage, to be as good at half range they'd need to be 6 damage, and to be worth 75% more points, you're looking at a S16 AP-4 D8 shot. Look at the model - do you ever expect GW to make that gun S16 with flat 8 damage? Let alone giving it equivalent stats of T5 W9 A8 + charge defence to even match the hardiness. So, we're realistically hoping for 2 shots, in which case they're still much less point efficient than Eradicators. I dunno, the Gauss Destructor at 70 points seems totally DOA to me, I can't even think of how they could make the model tough OR shooty enough to compete. If heavy gauss cannon can't compete at 37 points, doubling the cost of the model makes everything so much worse.

That means my hopes rest on the Emnitic Exterminator. Given the Skorptekh Lord's statline and the obvious push of blast weapons in this edition, we can almost certainly determine it'll also be blast. My best optimistic guess would be like 24" 3D3 S7 AP-2 D2 blast - if so, it's still too squishy, but that would be better shooting than 2 destroyers. My pessimistic guess would be 24" 3D3 S6 AP-1 D2 blast, making it almost unplayable. Who knows.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I haven't been really seriously considering the Lokhust Heavy Destroyer at all, because I don't expect them to be good. For 70 points, presuming the destroyer stats are still T5 W3 3+, you'd have to do something quite spectacularly overpowered to be worth taking and I don't see that they will. Maybe it'll get T6 W4 or something but given the Indomitus Necrons have ranged from meh (Skorptekhs, Plasmancer, Overlord change) to quite genuinely awful (the reanimator), I'll hold judgement for when we know whether we're hosed for another few years again or not.

Eh, I think that's a pessimistic outlook. I agree that the Emnitic gun is potentially going to be the most interesting, but who knows. Maybe we also get a shoot twice ability?

And again, Eradicators are ludicrous. Trying to balance our new stuff against them is pointless. Balance against what most army's anti-tank output is, because Eradicators are too cheap and powerful (and amusingly terrible against necron vehicles).

Eradicators will also suffer from Destroyer syndrome - they get one round of shooting and then get smoked off the board.

I wouldn't worry to much about our balance until we know more. All the playtesters have been subtly hinting that Necrons are getting the fixes we need. Just be patient, let marines have their silly melta man.

The rules for the Convergence of Dominion, our fortification network and others, are up on the WHC site.







Each Starsteles also gives +2 ld to Necrons within 6"

Unless they are free or there is more those are hot trash. I mean, who cared about leadership, especially in the MSU edition anyway, and that damage output is embarrassing. For a civilization with the power to destroy or enslave their Gods, the ability to create or snuff out entire star systems and with a name like transdimensional abductor, those are terrible lol.

Meanwhile the starcraft Mary Sue fort an apparently shoot at everything it can draw a bead on with 4 times as many guns lol.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Unless they are free or there is more those are hot trash. I mean, who cared about leadership, especially in the MSU edition anyway, and that damage output is embarrassing. For a civilization with the power to destroy or enslave their Gods, the ability to create or snuff out entire star systems and with a name like transdimensional abductor, those are terrible lol.

Meanwhile the starcraft Mary Sue fort an apparently shoot at everything it can draw a bead on with 4 times as many guns lol.

Its funny how necrons seem to be scared of any gun with a range greater then 24 inches. I think we can count the number of guns we have with a range greater then this on 1 hand lol, I get they are pushing us to be a mobile gunline but 12 inches is pistol range and makes the gauss reaper range seem more viable

The only thing that might redeem this model is quantum shielding and T 7 3+ to make them very tough as otherwise there short range will make them unviable and meltarifles are just gonna laugh at it

The only question I have regarding the new Mary sue fort is accuracy, it makes it out to be automated defenses so is it gonna be hitting on 4+ (with some rule if say a guy goes inside to hit on 3+)

Yeah they need to be hilariously cheap to be usable me thinks.

Leadership buff ain't bad, because I still don't think Necrons can be playing MSU. But yeah, underwhelming. I'll just keep Immortal Pride thanks GW.

IanVanCheese wrote:
Yeah they need to be hilariously cheap to be usable me thinks.

Leadership buff ain't bad, because I still don't think Necrons can be playing MSU. But yeah, underwhelming. I'll just keep Immortal Pride thanks GW.

You could deep strike 20 flayed ones, and zap up one of these to make them ld 12 and shoot some things that need shooting

But d3 S4 shots won’t kill much.

It kills about half an Intercessor on average.

But what do Flayed Ones really care about being leadership 12? They drop in charge, hopefully kill something and then get muclhed.

The fact it takes a full turn to warp up is ludicrous too. Again, our super advanced teleporting is functionally worse than just dropping gak from orbit.

I've been super positive and look on the bright side so far, but this is pretty whack, especially when shown alongside that ridiculous marine bunker.

Yeah unless this thing is so ridiculously cheap that it justifies itself as a LOS blocker I don't see any purpose to it. Weak gun and weak special rule. How much of the power budget for this thing went into just being able to move it?

I'll be honest, if it's cheap, I can see a super cheese tactic in literally using it as a teleporting wall to stop enemies moving forwards. I hate it, but that's how it's gonna see use, if at all.

Teleport onto an objective, you can't hold it but you force the enemy to come within shooting range of your weak ass gun to get it.

If they're 25 pts each and reasonably tough....maybe. And they're gonna be more expensive than that.

Sigh, I wouldn't even care about marines getting something super good and better than us, but why does our thing have to be actively bad.


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Eyjio wrote:
I'll be honest, if it's cheap, I can see a super cheese tactic in literally using it as a teleporting wall to stop enemies moving forwards. I hate it, but that's how it's gonna see use, if at all.

You'd need three crypteks to do it... and they'd have a turn to spot what you were doing and react... and you'd have to teleport them 9" away from any enemy models. Honestly, the best way to move these is with the deceiver. You could build your wall turn 1 then. That might be funny.

Yeah the gun should've been at least Str 5, 6 would be nice but Str 5 would really scare elite infantry. At Str 4 it can fight old marines and basic primaris but the more elite primaris don't need to worry too much about it

Eh, maybe there will be a strat to teleport a unit to them ala the Monolith. I dunno. I wish they'd stop pairing our reveals with marine stuff, it just makes everything we get look bad lol.

Yeah this terrain piece annoys me haha. It’s hard to say anything good about these. I guess the -3AP and 3D is nice, if any of the Measly shots even wound a target that needs to take that dmg, and people are dumb enough to move it within 12”.
Man, why is the teleporting the worst in the game? We are the most advanced race in the galaxy! Space Marines have standard issue weapons better than our constructs!

Meh, it's some cool necron themed terrain, that's how I'm looking at it. If they'd just released these as terrain with no rules, I'd be super happy so I'm just ignoring the (presumably) bad rules.

There may be something we don't know about them.

Anyway, everyone get their pre-orders sorted? I got my set, and the guy I'm getting more necrons off got his.

Well ended up with 3 sets of necrons from big box.hopefully melee destroyers in book can be fielded in 5 strong mobs. Going to have plenty of melee models available with 12 wraiths and 10 lychguard already.

tneva82 wrote:
Well ended up with 3 sets of necrons from big box.hopefully melee destroyers in book can be fielded in 5 strong mobs. Going to have plenty of melee models available with 12 wraiths and 10 lychguard already.

Nice one. Yeah I'm positive it'll be a 6 unit limit on the destroyers (9 would be too much).

Until we get our new book, I actually think Novokh necrons might be our strongest build. Sautekh got hit hard by new rules for heavy weapons and stacking pluses to hit. Nihilakh requires sitting still, but new cover rules are super opposed to that. Nephrek could be decent too for getting early board control. Mephrit is still a trap, but could have use if you build for it.

My main hope is that full units can all take the Reap-blades with Destroyers. Threshers are OK, but it's all about the big chunky swords.

6 is giving too many disadvantages so i'm sticking with 5.

As for dynasty have played nephrekh from the start and will not change. Even melee elements can benefit and melee destroyers have rr1 so only losing on rr2's. Here's hoping there will be way to advance and charge them.

Btw did airwing go? Getting 3 doom scythe for stratagem harder?

tneva82 wrote:
6 is giving too many disadvantages so i'm sticking with 5.

As for dynasty have played nephrekh from the start and will not change. Even melee elements can benefit and melee destroyers have rr1 so only losing on rr2's. Here's hoping there will be way to advance and charge them.

Btw did airwing go? Getting 3 doom scythe for stratagem harder?

Yes airwing is a thing of the past. You have to take at least two Patrols to play the stratagem now (Patrol grants 0-2 Flyer slots) . I'm pretty sure this stratagem will change (or even disappear) in our next codex though.

Well free bat and aux or patrol. Aux has no hq troop tax.

If stratagem goes then better buff them as without stratagem not good flyers.