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Yeah, these points values are basically useful if you're planning to get a game in in the next month or so, but I wouldn't start buying/selling anything based on them.

IanVanCheese wrote:
Yeah, these points values are basically useful if you're planning to get a game in in the next month or so, but I wouldn't start buying/selling anything based on them.

Yeah, pretty much.

Like, I wouldn't bank on wraiths keeping free pistols when our dex comes out, though that would be sweet.

I'm just kind of eagerly awaiting our new dex at this point.

So in the time between the Indomitus set and our codex I'm assuming that only the Overlord with Tacyon arrow set up gets the new MWBD, and any Overlord made using the codex datasheet options still uses the old version?

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
So in the time between the Indomitus set and our codex I'm assuming that only the Overlord with Tacyon arrow set up gets the new MWBD, and any Overlord made using the codex datasheet options still uses the old version?

Officially yes, but have a word with your opponent. Most people will be happy for you to use the new rule wording.

Considering how much new stuff there is in the set I can't imagine that GW will leave it long before getting either new codex released or "expansion codex" booklets. Depending on how much they rework the army.

I'd wager it could even be the next release after Indomitus.

You guys painting up any stuff in the wait for the new box? I’ve been painting up Lychguard, Wraiths and the new Szeras. About to start on some Immortals.

Post up pics of your painted dudes?

Speaking of Szeras, if 9th ed games are leaning toward a hotly contested objective battle in the mid-board the 9" range on his anti-psyker ability and 18" on his shooting profile doesn't seem so bad to me at least.

 Mixzremixzd wrote:
Speaking of Szeras, if 9th ed games are leaning toward a hotly contested objective battle in the mid-board the 9" range on his anti-psyker ability and 18" on his shooting profile doesn't seem so bad to me at least.

What ? There are ~30/180 psychic powers which have a range of 9", or less, which means 83% of all psychic powers are unaffected by his "anti psyker" ability. The enemy psyker can move, and advance, before trying to manifest a psychic power. This means he can move away from szeras, more than 9" away almost every time, unless he is within engagement range. But lets say the enemy psyker cant get away from szeras. In that case his "anti psyker" ability only works when a double is rolled. And even if a double is rolled, the opponent can still use the reroll stratagem to reroll the psychic test. In short, his "anti psyker" ability is useless.

Btw, are there any official points for szeras released ? The datasheet provided in the box doesnt show points, does pariah have the points ?

Officially for 8th he was 130, for 9th the preview list has him at 145 iirc.

 p5freak wrote:

 Mixzremixzd wrote:
Speaking of Szeras, if 9th ed games are leaning toward a hotly contested objective battle in the mid-board the 9" range on his anti-psyker ability and 18" on his shooting profile doesn't seem so bad to me at least.

What ? There are ~30/180 psychic powers which have a range of 9", or less, which means 83% of all psychic powers are unaffected by his "anti psyker" ability. The enemy psyker can move, and advance, before trying to manifest a psychic power. This means he can move away from szeras, more than 9" away almost every time, unless he is within engagement range. But lets say the enemy psyker cant get away from szeras. In that case his "anti psyker" ability only works when a double is rolled. And even if a double is rolled, the opponent can still use the reroll stratagem to reroll the psychic test. In short, his "anti psyker" ability is useless.

Btw, are there any official points for szeras released ? The datasheet provided in the box doesnt show points, does pariah have the points ?

Actually they can't advance anymore. And while they can escape his aura, being able to kick psykers out of an 18" circle in the middle of the board could be significant. Sure they have a longer range, but you're making them choose between taking the risk and coming near him. I agree it's not great, but it's not useless.

He's 145 in CA2020. That's steep, hoping he drops back down to 130 in the codex.

Also you can't reroll his improvement table anymore, and Eradicators went up hard, so there will be less of them, so less need for durable buff characters.

Niche uses, I guess. Shame, really.

IanVanCheese wrote:

Actually they can't advance anymore.

Psykers can advance, and manifest psychic powers.

IanVanCheese wrote:

And while they can escape his aura, being able to kick psykers out of an 18" circle in the middle of the board could be significant. Sure they have a longer range, but you're making them choose between taking the risk and coming near him. I agree it's not great, but it's not useless.

You are not kicking them out. Its not an aura which denies any psychic power. The chance of rolling doubles is 1/6, and even if that happens, the power still gets manifested, if the roll is high enough, and the psyker doesnt die from perils, which doesnt happen the first time they peril.

Yeah, I really don't know what they were thinking with Szeras.

The number 1 complaint about him was always the randomness of the buffs table, which is still random. They also made it so you could use the ability if you kill an enemy unit in melee with exactly Szeras, which is both highly situational and also you can only buff warriors and Immortals, for which to be within 6" of melee would be suicide.
Then they give him a unique version of Technomancer but the only change effectively is that it buffs Praetorians without the dynasty keyword. He also hasn't got a dynasty keyword, so doesn't benefit from those armywide rules, making him worse still. Reanimation is just dire anyway, there's no reason to even read this rule some games.
They made his gun random shots for no apparent reason and halved the range, also for no apparent reason, making Necrons even more random with even less range; at least Szeras used to be a cheap backfield support before, he doesn't even do that now. Hitting on 3+ no reroll, of course, because why would an ancient murder machine be actually even near as good as a space marine character when shooting his apparently uncontrollable staff?
His Empyric Overcharger is a meh bonus, it's very rare for it to matter, and rarer still that it's game changing; again, an odd decision given the model carries literal blackstone, you'd have thought they might at least give it something as good as deny the witch, given the plasmancer has faux smite.
The melee is yet more S7, in an army where everyone and his dog, from overlord to literal shard of a god seem inexplicable stuck at S7, but otherwise 4 S7 AP-3 D2 attacks and 2 S6 AP-2 D1 attacks is fine if unimpressive. Of course, he has no invulnerable save of any kind and can't take a chronometron like normal Crypteks, so you'll never actually want him to get into combat with anything remotely equipped for it as he'll melt, but hey, who needs invuln saves anayway? Not Necrons apparently, given that despite it being a huge issue in every codex we've ever had, we STILL largely lack any defence against good AP weapons.
And a 3+ save, of course. Why would someone who's reformed their whole body to be as perfect as possible, altering almost every facet of it actually care about himself? Absolutely no reason to ever make yourself have better armour ever, that's for sure.

It honestly baffles me. His gun is good but all his special rules want him to be in melee, where he can't survive because his save is awful, and the things he buff don't want to be in combat because they're even worse. He can buff troops, but the troops only care about 2 of his buffs, they're totally uncontrollably random, even then only really want the toughness, and they have to be right next to him. You can make the augments trigger multiple times, but only once per unit, so even when you have that slim chance to buff after a combat, there's no point because you've usually buffed all your troops by the end of turn 2 regardless as they're not worth taking in numbers. Everything about him is a contradiction at best. I legitimately think he got downgraded because of the range reduction and the point increase - being cheap and having a long range shot were the only reasons he ever saw the slim amount of play he ever did.

Cool model though. I guess they figured he didn't need playable rules to sell?

Eh, look I agree it's not great, it's a flavour rule. The reason Szeras is meh now is that you can't reroll his augmentation ability.

Before he was reasonable value just based on his statline and weapons, along with augment. Now he's more pricey and even less reliable.

Hoping his in-built warlord trait changes to something that gives him a reroll, but not likely.

IanVanCheese wrote:
Eh, look I agree it's not great, it's a flavour rule. The reason Szeras is meh now is that you can't reroll his augmentation ability.

Before he was reasonable value just based on his statline and weapons, along with augment. Now he's more pricey and even less reliable.

Hoping his in-built warlord trait changes to something that gives him a reroll, but not likely.

The entire model is a flavour rule. Great looking, overpriced, crappy rules. The same happened to ghaz, and bile. We can only hope that the new codex will have additional rules for him.

 p5freak wrote:

The entire model is a flavour rule. Great looking, overpriced, crappy rules. The same happened to ghaz, and bile. We can only hope that the new codex will have additional rules for him.

Depending of their respective base size, you could proxy Szeras for another Skorpekh Lord if you want to play 2 of them and you hate duplicate models. Otherwise, i fear we will not play him a lot in 9th unless they miraculously change all his datasheet while dropping his cost.

Shaelinith wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

The entire model is a flavour rule. Great looking, overpriced, crappy rules. The same happened to ghaz, and bile. We can only hope that the new codex will have additional rules for him.

Depending of their respective base size, you could proxy Szeras for another Skorpekh Lord if you want to play 2 of them and you hate duplicate models. Otherwise, i fear we will not play him a lot in 9th unless they miraculously change all his datasheet while dropping his cost.

While his datasheet likely won't change, the one thing that might budge him is the warlord trait - if it's something that adds reliability to his Augmentation rule, and warrior/immortals are still worth taking in large numbers, then he could see play. As is, I'll use him for casual stuff as the model is boss and I get bored of playing optimized lists all the time. Had a whale of a time in my last game of 8th with my fully tricked out Tomb Spyder lol.

IanVanCheese wrote:
While his datasheet likely won't change, the one thing that might budge him is the warlord trait - if it's something that adds reliability to his Augmentation rule, and warrior/immortals are still worth taking in large numbers, then he could see play. As is, I'll use him for casual stuff as the model is boss and I get bored of playing optimized lists all the time. Had a whale of a time in my last game of 8th with my fully tricked out Tomb Spyder lol.

I hoped for one time that an incredible mini could have a good - not broken - profile i *want* to play.
I'll probably try him with Cryptothralls in friendly games anyway, but he decreased a few ranks in priority on the painting todo list (which is huge by the way ) .

Shaelinith wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
While his datasheet likely won't change, the one thing that might budge him is the warlord trait - if it's something that adds reliability to his Augmentation rule, and warrior/immortals are still worth taking in large numbers, then he could see play. As is, I'll use him for casual stuff as the model is boss and I get bored of playing optimized lists all the time. Had a whale of a time in my last game of 8th with my fully tricked out Tomb Spyder lol.

I hoped for one time that an incredible mini could have a good - not broken - profile i *want* to play.
I'll probably try him with Cryptothralls in friendly games anyway, but he decreased a few ranks in priority on the painting todo list (which is huge by the way ) .

I'm working on Szeras and a unit of 10 Shieldguard at the moment. I'll get some pics up soon (they're OK, nothing special but I'm happy with them so far).

I think he'll be decent in normal play, his statline and gun almost pay for the cost, his augment ability is good enough for normal games, it's just not reliable enough to build a hardcore list around.

While I agree that Szeras is not amazing I feel the need to defend him slightly. I've played a fair bit of 9th now, and used Szeras once.

In 9th edition you haul arse onto the mid board objectives turn one, and try to hold them. Durable units that fight at close quarters are what you want, preferably with the troop battlefield role.

So, in theory, we want to be moving a horde of Warriors and Immortals into the middle of the board ASAP. Szeras is clearly designed to support that play style. Now, I don't think that will be a particularly competitive way to play under our current rules, but there's nothing baffling about the way Szeras has been designed.

In the game I used him I had 2x20 Warriors and 10 Immortals who benfited from his buffs and Warlord Trait nicely. Szeras sniped a fancy Grey Knight fellow (brother captain I think) after the Warriors removed his screen (Look Out Sir is harsh), then charged in and chopped up a Strike Squad before being wiped out by their counter charge. He was alright for his cost.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
While I agree that Szeras is not amazing I feel the need to defend him slightly. I've played a fair bit of 9th now, and used Szeras once.

In 9th edition you haul arse onto the mid board objectives turn one, and try to hold them. Durable units that fight at close quarters are what you want, preferably with the troop battlefield role.

So, in theory, we want to be moving a horde of Warriors and Immortals into the middle of the board ASAP. Szeras is clearly designed to support that play style. Now, I don't think that will be a particularly competitive way to play under our current rules, but there's nothing baffling about the way Szeras has been designed.

In the game I used him I had 2x20 Warriors and 10 Immortals who benfited from his buffs and Warlord Trait nicely. Szeras sniped a fancy Grey Knight fellow (brother captain I think) after the Warriors removed his screen (Look Out Sir is harsh), then charged in and chopped up a Strike Squad before being wiped out by their counter charge. He was alright for his cost.

I think that's the main thing with him, you're paying a lot for his profile more than his rules. If you get a few good turns of firing his staff off, he'll probably pay for himself. The buffs are nice when they go off and he can do some damage in melee as a counter charger.

How you find 9th so far?

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
While I agree that Szeras is not amazing I feel the need to defend him slightly. I've played a fair bit of 9th now, and used Szeras once.

In 9th edition you haul arse onto the mid board objectives turn one, and try to hold them. Durable units that fight at close quarters are what you want, preferably with the troop battlefield role.

So, in theory, we want to be moving a horde of Warriors and Immortals into the middle of the board ASAP. Szeras is clearly designed to support that play style. Now, I don't think that will be a particularly competitive way to play under our current rules, but there's nothing baffling about the way Szeras has been designed.

In the game I used him I had 2x20 Warriors and 10 Immortals who benfited from his buffs and Warlord Trait nicely. Szeras sniped a fancy Grey Knight fellow (brother captain I think) after the Warriors removed his screen (Look Out Sir is harsh), then charged in and chopped up a Strike Squad before being wiped out by their counter charge. He was alright for his cost.

Did you play against Blast weapons ? How the warriors blobs were ? Did you tried the Gauss Reapers ?

I've been sticking to the current rules so no Indomitus options/rules. The only time blast has come up was when my Tau opponent couldn't shoot his riptides main weapon into combat against wraith, which felt good. I haven't experienced it used against warrior blobs yet which will be less good.

Wraith charging into combat with units trying to hold the objectives and playing the +1 save strat is super strong.

I'm liking 9th so far, it's all about the mission, and the mission is hard to achieve.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
While I agree that Szeras is not amazing I feel the need to defend him slightly. I've played a fair bit of 9th now, and used Szeras once.

In 9th edition you haul arse onto the mid board objectives turn one, and try to hold them. Durable units that fight at close quarters are what you want, preferably with the troop battlefield role.

So, in theory, we want to be moving a horde of Warriors and Immortals into the middle of the board ASAP. Szeras is clearly designed to support that play style. Now, I don't think that will be a particularly competitive way to play under our current rules, but there's nothing baffling about the way Szeras has been designed.

In the game I used him I had 2x20 Warriors and 10 Immortals who benfited from his buffs and Warlord Trait nicely. Szeras sniped a fancy Grey Knight fellow (brother captain I think) after the Warriors removed his screen (Look Out Sir is harsh), then charged in and chopped up a Strike Squad before being wiped out by their counter charge. He was alright for his cost.

Right, but Szeras isn't very durable in combat because he has no invuln. If he's ever shot at by AT guns, he melts, and if he faces a combat focused unit, he dies. I mean, if a Captain with TH/SS gets to combat with him, you expect Szeras to deal 20/9=~2.22 damage, and the captain then does 5 S8 AP-3 D3 attacks back, dealing 5(7/9)(2/3)(5/6)*3 = 175/27 = ~6.48 damage back, almost killing him outright. You can argue Szeras has a good gun to make up for the power difference, which is all well and good, but then he shouldn't be in combat so he can maximise that. He's also more vulnerable in combat, as attacks can be assigned to him, whereas shooting at characters in 9e is surprisingly challenging.

Don't get me wrong, in a casual game he can do fine, his damage output is reasonable and if your opponent neither has an incredibly shooty army nor anything deadly in combat, he can perform well. My issue is more that the other Necron HQs are quite focused. Overlords provide an obvious powerful benefit at almost 60% of the cost. Skorpekh Lords are considerably better in combat, are actually more durable due to their invuln and provide a strong buff for other units which want to be in combat. Royal Wardens provide decent shooting and a very helpful buff, plus are very cheap. Normal Crypteks give a similar RP buff, but a much more useful bubble of invuln. Plasmancers are fantastic HQs to move up the board, dealing a lot of damage to nearby combats without ever having to risk actually engaging. Szeras is in a weird spot where he's better than many of these, but the premium you pay is so high; at the same time, he's a jack of all trades - decent in melee but not fantastic, decent shooting but mediocre for the points, decent buffs but rarely game changing, etc. Compare him to a Triarch Stalker for example, which is fewer points but can fire a flamer into combat, has more wounds, has QS, is faster; even then, they aren't very good. It just seems like an odd price point for something which is a bit meh when other options are more focused and cheaper. Of course, I guess it's all splitting hairs - you're not likely to win as Necrons at the moment anyway, so maybe it's best just to show off a cool model and wait it out to see if things improve for us.

Eyjio wrote:
Compare him to a Triarch Stalker for example, which is fewer points but can fire a flamer into combat, has more wounds, has QS, is faster; even then, they aren't very good.

Stalker wasn't very good, it's a beast now. At 125pts with a heat ray it's an absolute steal. Move and fire without penalty and fire in combat have helped it so much, while smaller board brings the heat ray back into usefulness.

Agree on Szeras though, just don't go bashing my beloved Stalker lol.

IanVanCheese wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
Compare him to a Triarch Stalker for example, which is fewer points but can fire a flamer into combat, has more wounds, has QS, is faster; even then, they aren't very good.

Stalker wasn't very good, it's a beast now. At 125pts with a heat ray it's an absolute steal. Move and fire without penalty and fire in combat have helped it so much, while smaller board brings the heat ray back into usefulness.

Agree on Szeras though, just don't go bashing my beloved Stalker lol.

Yeah, Stalkers are looking very good right now. They gained a lot in the edition and got tickled by the new points. If they gain dynasty traits in the new dex they'll be an auto-take as they are now.

I played a 9th Ed. Mission using 8th Ed. rules today, with Szeras on a 4x4.

I love the model, and I enjoy his rules. I would say, ignoring point cost, he was “fine.” He got to shoot every turn, he got to buff units every turn (I ran a mass infantry list), and his cryptek reanimation buff got max utility... but aside from satisfying a degree of HQ tax, I’d have preferred something else; e.g., a Stalker for the same number of points (albeit losing the un target ability).

His augmentation ability is awkward: you don’t want BS+1 on the same unit you’re giving an MWBD buff to (although in 9th, you may start giving MWBD to your vehicles/etc., so that may be less ‘wasted’), you don’t care about +1 Strength unless you’re doing Anrakyr / Novokh shenanigans/etc.: which means your fishing for Toughness most of the time at 33% chance.

His anti-psycher is fine. Not scary enough to force them out of the bubble (which I think everyone was assuming would happen—frankly that’d be awesome if it was scary enough to do that), which means it does actually do have an effect... but the odds are low enough on the effect that it isn’t consistent for tournament use (I.e., you’d need ca. 6 psychic abilities going off per game in his bubble for a bell curve distribution probability, which is unlikely).

So, really, you’re bringing him for his gun and melee. Which is decent! But at d3 shots, kinda inconsistent.

I love the model, as I said, so I’ll keep bringing him for casual games (especially since he’s so cheap), but I was hoping he’d be more impactful.

Szeras isnt cheap at 145. His melee isnt decent, its ok. You dont want him in melee against melee units. Its hilarious that he only regains 1 wound, like any other normal necron. He is the master of biomancy, who knows how to modify and repair necron bodys, and should regain 2 wounds. Also his master technomancer ability should be +2 to RP, or reroll 1s. A master technomancer should be better than a regular technomancer.

 p5freak wrote:
Szeras isnt cheap at 145. His melee isnt decent, its ok. You dont want him in melee against melee units. Its hilarious that he only regains 1 wound, like any other normal necron. He is the master of biomancy, who knows how to modify and repair necron bodys, and should regain 2 wounds. Also his master technomancer ability should be +2 to RP, or reroll 1s. A master technomancer should be better than a regular technomancer.

For an untargetable 18”, d3, str8, -4ap, d6dmg gun which satisfies an HQ ‘tax’, he’s cheap for 145 points. Not good enough for tournament use, I’ve concluded, but still cheap.

I’d put him at B+ on the old scale.

HQ tax is less of a thing though, isn't it?