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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You do lose out on range though, but with the smaller table sizes that's not going to matter much.

I hope Doomsday Cannons get more than just the extra 24" range. Maybe they'll get a strength increase or something.

48" is essentially the whole table in 9th.

You guys are liking the Doomstalker? Even on the strong profile it's only 4 damage per turn against vehicles without an Invul save. And that assuming no negative modifiers like dense terrain, and no positive like MWBD because it's just not worth it on such a weak unit. And not even T7.

Geez.

Acehilator wrote:
You guys are liking the Doomstalker? Even on the strong profile it's only 4 damage per turn against vehicles without an Invul save. And that assuming no negative modifiers like dense terrain, and no positive like MWBD because it's just not worth it on such a weak unit. And not even T7.

Geez.

I mean it doesn't get much better than that outside of marines and their stupid melta men. For 130pts, that seems fair enough to me.

Whats the alternative? What does better than that vs vehicles in our book?

Hell, even the ludicrous melta marines only average 7 wounds vs a T8 tank with no inv save.

They average 8 vs T8 and 10.67 vs T7 without any buffs, which are much much easier to come by in a SM army, they are mobile while doing it and are infantry, so easier to hide out of LoS, can move through walls and can gain cover.

Thinking these things are good sounds like Stockholm syndrome, lol.

Acehilator wrote:
They average 8 vs T8 and 10.67 vs T7 without any buffs, which are much much easier to come by in a SM army, they are mobile while doing it and are infantry, so easier to hide out of LoS, can move through walls and can gain cover.

Thinking these things are good sounds like Stockholm syndrome, lol.

You're assuming they're in melta range for those numbers right? I'm not letting those fethers within 12" of my tanks, and nor will anyone with any sense.

Vs T8 it's 6 shots, 4 hits, 2 wounds, 3.5 dmg per shot, 7 damage. And they're considered to be wildly overpowered. Outside of meltamen, what would you considered to be an effective anti-tank gun? Because basically nothing stacks up to them.

With the firepower of typical SM lists it shouldn't really be difficult to get them into Melta range. Also outflank is a thing. If they are not in Melta range, they 100% have Chapter Master + Lieutnant buffs. Which makes it even worse. But it's comparing apples to oranges anyways.

Quad Lascannon Contemptor would be the best analogue. Also a vehicle, also 3+/5++, T7 but less HP and degrades (lol). 6.5 damage without any buffs or doctrines. 8.8 with rerolls, without doctrines.

Exocrine falls off hard against T8, but murders T7 and below.

Hive Guard deal only 6.2 against T8 while costing double the points, but they can safely hide, shoot twice for 2CP and don't fall off as hard against Invulns because they are only AP -2 to begin with.

Acehilator wrote:
With the firepower of typical SM lists it shouldn't really be difficult to get them into Melta range. Also outflank is a thing. If they are not in Melta range, they 100% have Chapter Master + Lieutnant buffs. Which makes it even worse. But it's comparing apples to oranges anyways.

Quad Lascannon Contemptor would be the best analogue. Also a vehicle, also 3+/5++, T7 but less HP and degrades (lol). 6.5 damage without any buffs or doctrines. 8.8 with rerolls, without doctrines.

Exocrine falls off hard against T8, but murders T7 and below.

Hive Guard deal only 6.2 against T8 while costing double the points, but they can safely hide, shoot twice for 2CP and don't fall off as hard against Invulns because they are only AP -2 to begin with.

Contemptor: OK, so a Forge World unit that costs a third more is about a third more effective (we're going without buffs here, because that's a whole mess and we have no idea what buffs we'll have access to).

Hive guard: seems balanced, they do less per pts but they can hide. Exocrine is better vs some targets, and worse vs others.

If the eradicators outflank, that's a turn of not shooting they're doing. You can screen the sides of the board, the odds of them getting in melta range is poor. Sure they can have buffs, but so can we, we don't know our buffs and both sides pay for those buffs, so it's tough to talk balance there at the moment.

You've named three of the best anti-tank units in the game, and the Doomstalker comes out pretty well vs all of them for its points. It's a stretch to say it's a bad unit. At worst, it's sightly less efficient than some of the most efficient anti-tank in the game.

Edit: did the math on Lokhust with gauss to compare. Two of them (140pts) averages 6.33 vs same target with no outside buffs. More output, but not as tough to kill. Also interesting.

Edit edit: More stuff from the interwebs. Someone has access to repaackged box of lychguard/praetorians, so we have new statlines for them. 3 attacks base on lychguard.

Also of note that the Rods appear to be Base Damage 2 for both the shooting and Melee attack now for Praetorians.

 Sasori wrote:
Also of note that the Rods appear to be Base Damage 2 for both the shooting and Melee attack now for Praetorians.

That is so spicy. Praetorians were already threatening to be good at 23pts per model. Assuming they don't go up much in the codex, they're real good. Very happy I built 10 sword and board lychguard again.

IanVanCheese wrote:

Acehilator wrote:
With the firepower of typical SM lists it shouldn't really be difficult to get them into Melta range. Also outflank is a thing. If they are not in Melta range, they 100% have Chapter Master + Lieutnant buffs. Which makes it even worse. But it's comparing apples to oranges anyways.

Quad Lascannon Contemptor would be the best analogue. Also a vehicle, also 3+/5++, T7 but less HP and degrades (lol). 6.5 damage without any buffs or doctrines. 8.8 with rerolls, without doctrines.

Exocrine falls off hard against T8, but murders T7 and below.

Hive Guard deal only 6.2 against T8 while costing double the points, but they can safely hide, shoot twice for 2CP and don't fall off as hard against Invulns because they are only AP -2 to begin with.

Contemptor: OK, so a Forge World unit that costs a third more is about a third more effective (we're going without buffs here, because that's a whole mess and we have no idea what buffs we'll have access to).

Hive guard: seems balanced, they do less per pts but they can hide. Exocrine is better vs some targets, and worse vs others.

If the eradicators outflank, that's a turn of not shooting they're doing. You can screen the sides of the board, the odds of them getting in melta range is poor. Sure they can have buffs, but so can we, we don't know our buffs and both sides pay for those buffs, so it's tough to talk balance there at the moment.

You've named three of the best anti-tank units in the game, and the Doomstalker comes out pretty well vs all of them for its points. It's a stretch to say it's a bad unit. At worst, it's sightly less efficient than some of the most efficient anti-tank in the game.

Edit: did the math on Lokhust with gauss to compare. Two of them (140pts) averages 6.33 vs same target with no outside buffs. More output, but not as tough to kill. Also interesting.

Edit edit: More stuff from the interwebs. Someone has access to repaackged box of lychguard/praetorians, so we have new statlines for them. 3 attacks base on lychguard.

Oh, is that what Japanese rules look like? If so that is interesting that they use symbols instead of abbreviations. That does make a lot of sense, now that I think of it.
Were particle casters always pistol 2?

No they were not

2D RoC makes me happy. I may start running a unit of 10 to bully primaris

I hope everyone is sitting down, because the Tomb Spyder might not be hilariously awful now. Pts dependant of course, but that's a hefty stat buff.

Overall we got a lot more Killy today.

I have 3 Spyders, so I would be happy if they got to see the table for the first time in years.

 Sasori wrote:
I have 3 Spyders, so I would be happy if they got to see the table for the first time in years.

If they can still roll in units of three, that's 15 str 8, -3, d2 attacks you got there. Now I need to dig out my second tomb spyder and build him.

And I had hoped the D6 shots D6 damage on the doomsday cannon would go away, always hated it.

IanVanCheese wrote:
Assuming it will get caught, but neither the Doomsday Blaster or Enmitic Exterminator are blast. Weird considering the Doomsday Cannon and Enmitic Annihilator are.

Got to sell new models. Lack of blast is boon for the stalker.


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IanVanCheese wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You do lose out on range though, but with the smaller table sizes that's not going to matter much.

I hope Doomsday Cannons get more than just the extra 24" range. Maybe they'll get a strength increase or something.

48" is essentially the whole table in 9th.

Luckily not all use those minimum sizes. Minimum by definition is never optimal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Acehilator wrote:
They average 8 vs T8 and 10.67 vs T7 without any buffs, which are much much easier to come by in a SM army, they are mobile while doing it and are infantry, so easier to hide out of LoS, can move through walls and can gain cover.

Thinking these things are good sounds like Stockholm syndrome, lol.

You are comparing to one of the most busted AT units in the game...

That's flawed comparison. Everything shouldn't be brought to same level of sillyness. Eradicators need to be brought down.

It's bad for game if everything becomes that level of brokeness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sasori wrote:
Also of note that the Rods appear to be Base Damage 2 for both the shooting and Melee attack now for Praetorians.

Typical Just got void blades.

Well 4 attacks isn't totally bad. I don't face much marines locally anyway so plenty W1 models to face.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Oh, is that what Japanese rules look like? If so that is interesting that they use symbols instead of abbreviations. That does make a lot of sense, now that I think of it.
Were particle casters always pistol 2?

It's the new multi language assembly guide so that you need less pages. Each language has different letters so this way you only need 1 stat block for all.

Casters 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
And I had hoped the D6 shots D6 damage on the doomsday cannon would go away, always hated it.

Seeing stalker has that don't hold your hopes up.

The 4+ to hit with the Doomstalker is going to make it rough compared to the more reliable 3+ to hit of the DDA though. But 130pts is pretty neat.

Yea, 4+ and D6 shots, D6 damage kinda kills it for me. Half the games it will do precisely nothing, the other half it will be great. If I was cynical, I would say that these stats were created to force everyone to buy three of the damned thing or none. It’s a nice model, but I think in my case it will be none.

2 things that concern me somewhat:

- Doomsday Ark. Doomsday Stalkers. Lokust Destroyers. Heavy destroyers. There is a lot of overlap in terms of low volume backfield high strength good AP anti-tank firepower in the heavy support section. It might be challenging for all these choices to find there own niche.
- The biggest issue with the Doomsday Stalker is that it is a high wound count model without QS. Necron mech lists tend to try to leverage scewing enemy anti-tank by denying them effective targets.

We got to wait to see all the rules though. Command protocols & stragems may play a huge role.

Attacks changes to Lynchguard and Praetorians look good if there points remains similar. I wonder with if Praetorians will get dynasty traits (or maybe get Szarehkhan dynasty default?)

 p5freak wrote:
And I had hoped the D6 shots D6 damage on the doomsday cannon would go away, always hated it.

Agreed. The stupidly swingy nature of Necron anti-tank always annoyed me with so many random shot D6 damage guns, which is what led tot he saturation of regular Destroyers where 3 guaranteed shots was at least reliable. I'm also not liking the fact they've kept the standing still part of the Doomsday profile. It always seemed to me that a race as advanced as the Necrons shouldn't be the only one that has that restriction on any of their guns, and if they do those guns should be absolutely devastating.

OTOH, I'm liking the look of Lokhust Heavy Destroyers with Gauss and both Lychguard and Praetorians, especially Praetorians with Rods as that's what mine are built with.

Asymmetric wrote:
2 things that concern me somewhat:

- Doomsday Ark. Doomsday Stalkers. Lokust Destroyers. Heavy destroyers. There is a lot of overlap in terms of low volume backfield high strength good AP anti-tank firepower in the heavy support section. It might be challenging for all these choices to find there own niche.
- The biggest issue with the Doomsday Stalker is that it is a high wound count model without QS. Necron mech lists tend to try to leverage scewing enemy anti-tank by denying them effective targets.

We got to wait to see all the rules though. Command protocols & stragems may play a huge role.

Attacks changes to Lynchguard and Praetorians look good if there points remains similar. I wonder with if Praetorians will get dynasty traits (or maybe get Szarehkhan dynasty default?)

Your second point suggests the distinctions required for the first:

1. DDA: Good versus 'traditional' AT fire (e.g., Lascannons and other D6 damage weaponry). Also has good Anti-MEQ/GEQ fire support at close range.
2. DDS: Better than DDA versus non-traditional AT fire (e.g., Plasma and high volume of 2dmg fire) that usually gets past QS. Also has limited volume of Anti-MEQ/GEQ fire support and high impact low volume of melee attachs.
3. LD/HD: Leverages RP for long-game resilience, and good versus high VoF / low strength fire (e.g., GEQ massed lasguns or bolters).

If you want AT, and the meta skews to Lascannons, you want a DDA. If the meta skews to Plasma, you want a DDS. If you have an RP-heavy synergy focus that you want to leverage onto your AT, you want Destroyers.

sieGermans wrote:

Asymmetric wrote:
2 things that concern me somewhat:

- Doomsday Ark. Doomsday Stalkers. Lokust Destroyers. Heavy destroyers. There is a lot of overlap in terms of low volume backfield high strength good AP anti-tank firepower in the heavy support section. It might be challenging for all these choices to find there own niche.
- The biggest issue with the Doomsday Stalker is that it is a high wound count model without QS. Necron mech lists tend to try to leverage scewing enemy anti-tank by denying them effective targets.

We got to wait to see all the rules though. Command protocols & stragems may play a huge role.

Attacks changes to Lynchguard and Praetorians look good if there points remains similar. I wonder with if Praetorians will get dynasty traits (or maybe get Szarehkhan dynasty default?)

Your second point suggests the distinctions required for the first:

My point was since they overlap so much, that the more likely outcome is one or more of the above 4 units may emerge redunant.

I don't really see how doomstalkers are an especially efficent choice in a world of damage 2 plasma as you imply, perhaps marginally so compared to other heavy support choices but not enough to gain an edge. Doomsday Arks have flayer arrays so the anti infantry firepower output point is moot.

I'm more holding out for synergy in the command protocols and stratgems.

I have to say, I'm liking the idea of D2 rods for Praetorians.

I wonder if there's any chance the Staff of Light will get similar treatment?

If the Overlord can mwbd any necrons unit will that change the people's thoughts on the doomstalker? Or would you just mwbd a DDA?

Not sure if MWBD on a heavy D6 gun is a good idea.

Necronwarrior12 wrote:
If the Overlord can mwbd any necrons unit will that change the people's thoughts on the doomstalker? Or would you just mwbd a DDA?

I suspect MWBD will get more millage on higher point cost units.

9 tomblades.
3 lokusts
6 destroyers
Necrons Lords of war. Maybe a new buffed monolith, etc.

We'll see if tesla is still good with MWBD. I'm hoping they don't make it unmodified 6s despite the speculation.

Anyone actually gotten some games in with the new rules? I'm finding that the DDA is significantly worse. It doesn't hide well, 72" range doesn't mean much more than 36" which covers most the board. Sight lines are also a nightmare for the thing now resulting in frequent maneuvering. Additionally blast is a hilariously bad keyword for it's cannon completely nullifying the unit if it gets tagged in CC which isn't that difficult with smaller boards.

Think I'll be replacing them for the most part with the new less expensive stalker. Though durability may prove an issue without QS.

There does seem like there is a lot of overlap with our destroyer options now though. With each one being better vs certain targets, wonder if we'll see a mix or if one rises as the better TAC option.

If Triarch Praetorians stay the same price, and Voidblades stay +1 Attacks, then we finally have a unit that's pretty decent at clearing chaff efficiently. (Ignoring cryptothralls, which would be amazing blenders if you could actually just take them).
They'd be a hair better than Warriors at killing GEQ, and 50% tougher.

Just getting back into the hobby after 15 years away I’m playing my first game of 9th in a mini-tournament (500 points) with friends next month. I’m up against:

Ad Mech
Guard (expecting vehicles)
Dark Angels (Primaris mostly)

What’s good for 500 points here? Silver tide? DDA for some anti-tank?

I have some Wraiths, Immortals, a Cryptek. Looking to build up from there. Any advice appreciated!