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Asymmetric wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Asymmetric wrote:

But if you want to be really degenerate;

Current RAW = Deceiver redeploy + Night scythe + new wording on Enhanced Invasions beams + Any Necron infantry held on tomb world = Very high chance of first turn charge. Just throw 10 lychguard into someone's face Turn1.

Current RAW in eternal war missions is reinforcements cannot arrive T1. Any unit that isnt set up on the battlefield during deployment is reinforcements. When you have a night scythe you set up infantry on the tomb world, rather than setting them up on the battlefield. Therefore, a unit set up on the tomb world is reinforcements, and cannot arrive T1. And even if it would be possible, spending 630 pts to kill some chaff unit on with 10 lychguard on T1 is ridiculous.

As of the FAQ, they have changed the wording of strategem to allow for deployement regardless of matched play rules on Turn 1. The current wording is like space marine drop pods that allow for t1 deployment.

You can discuss it here https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790787.page

Its likely a mistake, but its RAW.

I looked at this a year ago when the wording changed. The wording *only* works for Emergency Invasion Beams, not our normal invasion beams. I.e. You are relying on the enemy to pop a NightScythe first turn to make use of that. Gods, I *wish* the faq on EIB worked for normal invasion beams off monoliith/scythe too, but RAW, it certainly does not.

*robot sadface*

Datasheet for wraiths in repackaged boxes leaked. -1 ws, bs, -2 s(though claws give 1 back), gained extra attack. Overall less killy. Darn,

tneva82 wrote:
Datasheet for wraiths in repackaged boxes leaked. -1 ws, bs, -2 s(though claws give 1 back), gained extra attack. Overall less killy. Darn,

Well they want us all to run out and buy those three-legged killers, right? Killy wraiths isn't helping with that.

Well the roles are bit different. Destroyers are more killy but the destroyers are also super squishy. Wraiths are rather durable.

And since Wraiths are canoptek models it makes sense that they follow the canoptek "theme" of having WS/BS 4+.
Even though it sucks of course, since it's a nerf to a model many players have a lot of.

torblind wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Datasheet for wraiths in repackaged boxes leaked. -1 ws, bs, -2 s(though claws give 1 back), gained extra attack. Overall less killy. Darn,

Well they want us all to run out and buy those three-legged killers, right? Killy wraiths isn't helping with that.

Killy Wraiths with a 3++ has been a balance problem since 6th. This is a good change. We don’t need them propping up the Codex anymore.

Falkman wrote:
And since Wraiths are canoptek models it makes sense that they follow the canoptek "theme" of having WS/BS 4+.
Even though it sucks of course, since it's a nerf to a model many players have a lot of.

It's only a nerf if they are mis-costed


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sieGermans wrote:

torblind wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Datasheet for wraiths in repackaged boxes leaked. -1 ws, bs, -2 s(though claws give 1 back), gained extra attack. Overall less killy. Darn,

Well they want us all to run out and buy those three-legged killers, right? Killy wraiths isn't helping with that.

Killy Wraiths with a 3++ has been a balance problem since 6th. This is a good change. We don’t need them propping up the Codex anymore.

I agree it's nice to have more defined roles, hammer and anvil in this case. Cheaper wraiths still at T5/3W/3++ , but now possibly also 2+ in cover, isn't that bad really. Some interesting gun options there too.

torblind wrote:
Cheaper wraiths still at T5/3W/3++ , but now possibly also 2+ in cover, isn't that bad really. Some interesting gun options there too.

We don't actually know if they still have the 3++ invulnerable save.

True. Could be going to 4++ since GW is moving away from high inv saves a lot. That would be lot bigger nerf than WS4+

Well, looks like Wraiths are going back on the shelf.

+1 Attack vs reduction from WS 3+ to WS4+ is mostly a wash. S6 vs S5 for claw is a minor nerf. On many targets it won't matter, T3, T5 & T6 it will.

Whether they are good to keep 3++ or go to a 4++ all just depends on the final point cost.

I assume that's a Flat Damage 3 Transdimensional beamer, which sounds moderately interesting?

Asymmetric wrote:
+1 Attack vs reduction from WS 3+ to WS4+ is mostly a wash.

A dedicated melee unit with WS4+ is utter garbage.

 vipoid wrote:

Asymmetric wrote:
+1 Attack vs reduction from WS 3+ to WS4+ is mostly a wash.

A dedicated melee unit with WS4+ is utter garbage.

It's literally the same.

18 attacks. 12 hits.

24 attacks. 12 hits.

The only difference is what re-rolls on miss they get access to or hit modifiers.

 vipoid wrote:

Asymmetric wrote:
+1 Attack vs reduction from WS 3+ to WS4+ is mostly a wash.

A dedicated melee unit with WS4+ is utter garbage.

If it keeps its 3++ its probably meant to be an objective holder now.

Asymmetric wrote:
+1 Attack vs reduction from WS 3+ to WS4+ is mostly a wash. S6 vs S5 for claw is a minor nerf. On many targets it won't matter, T3, T5 & T6 it will.

Whether they are good to keep 3++ or go to a 4++ all just depends on the final point cost.

I assume that's a Flat Damage 3 Transdimensional beamer, which sounds moderately interesting?

Anyone know what that Icon next to the TBeam is supposed to represent? Is it too much to hope that they've become Assault?

 vipoid wrote:

Asymmetric wrote:
+1 Attack vs reduction from WS 3+ to WS4+ is mostly a wash.

A dedicated melee unit with WS4+ is utter garbage.

Uh you realize both versions result in same number of hits?

So if 4 attacks at WS4+ is utter garbage so is 3 attacks at 3+. So wraiths have been utter garbage all the time according to YOU.

Asymmetric wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Asymmetric wrote:
+1 Attack vs reduction from WS 3+ to WS4+ is mostly a wash.

A dedicated melee unit with WS4+ is utter garbage.

It's literally the same.

18 attacks. 12 hits.

24 attacks. 12 hits.

The only difference is what re-rolls on miss they get access to or hit modifiers.

Isn’t this actually a buff with the +1 to hit from Indomitus MWBD?

18 attacks at buffed 2+ To hit is 15 hits, but 24 attacks at buffed 3+ is 16 hits.

And for further buff: If you have reroll misses new is better, reroll 1's and it's equal.

So yeah. Real utter garbage. It's either same or better with new version.

But real garbage indeed. For Vipoid's sake I hope he hasn't been using them as he has been using utter garbage all the time then.

 Malkyr wrote:

Asymmetric wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Asymmetric wrote:
+1 Attack vs reduction from WS 3+ to WS4+ is mostly a wash.

A dedicated melee unit with WS4+ is utter garbage.

It's literally the same.

18 attacks. 12 hits.

24 attacks. 12 hits.

The only difference is what re-rolls on miss they get access to or hit modifiers.

Isn’t this actually a buff with the +1 to hit from Indomitus MWBD?

18 attacks at buffed 2+ To hit is 15 hits, but 24 attacks at buffed 3+ is 16 hits.

Yes. Its a minor buff.

The only time I can think of right now where 4+ with extra attack is worst is in the rare cases where the enemy has a Negative hit modifier (like nurgle cloud of flies).

i.e. 6 wraiths with -1 to hit
24 attack 5+ = 8 hits.
18 attacks 4+ = 9 hits.

The strength change is a nerf but again it's so minor in reality to most units and doesn't change the core function of the unit which is one of distraction carnfex, objective taker and pinning units in melee.

More to the point, as we have just spent the last page of tactics talking about, Scarabs are a WS4+ Melee only unit that everyone has been singing there praises of as one of the best units, if not the best, in the entire codex currently. So obviously a WS4 unit can be good.

That comparison fails as scarabs aren't really melee unit but rather objective holder/screen/nuisance.You don't bring them for 4 automatic wounds and 12 hits at their paltry S no AP.

tneva82 wrote:
That comparison fails as scarabs aren't really melee unit but rather objective holder/screen/nuisance.

I don't see the difference, that is what wraiths are. You get what you pay for in points you put into the unit.

Neither unit is a melee blender

Asymmetric wrote:
+1 Attack vs reduction from WS 3+ to WS4+ is mostly a wash. S6 vs S5 for claw is a minor nerf. On many targets it won't matter, T3, T5 & T6 it will.

Whether they are good to keep 3++ or go to a 4++ all just depends on the final point cost.

I assume that's a Flat Damage 3 Transdimensional beamer, which sounds moderately interesting?

S6 to S5 is a minor nerf? It’s a nerf against almost every single army in the entire game. Most non marines have T3 troops, most elites are T5 and some light vehicles or things like ork buggies are T6. It’s fairly substantially worse.

If they become 4++, I don’t think you ever take them.

Transdimensional Beamer is bad. 1 shot at BS 4+, maybe BS 5+? I mean, what would you realistically pay for that when you fire it once, maybe twice if you’re lucky?

Eyjio wrote:

Asymmetric wrote:
+1 Attack vs reduction from WS 3+ to WS4+ is mostly a wash. S6 vs S5 for claw is a minor nerf. On many targets it won't matter, T3, T5 & T6 it will.

Whether they are good to keep 3++ or go to a 4++ all just depends on the final point cost.

I assume that's a Flat Damage 3 Transdimensional beamer, which sounds moderately interesting?

S6 to S5 is a minor nerf? It’s a nerf against almost every single army in the entire game. Most non marines have T3 troops, most elites are T5 and some light vehicles or things like ork buggies are T6. It’s fairly substantially worse.

If they become 4++, I don’t think you ever take them.

Transdimensional Beamer is bad. 1 shot at BS 4+, maybe BS 5+? I mean, what would you realistically pay for that when you fire it once, maybe twice if you’re lucky?

What material difference will any of that make to the edge cases of chipping a wound off an ork buggy or wounding guardsman on 2+ vs 3+ when the point of wraiths will be to throwing them into objectives with Nihilakh Necrons T1. Its 9th edition, not 8th.

It doesn't matter if they go down to a 4++ if they drop the points cost. If there overcosted for what they do, then of course you won't use them.

Asymmetric wrote:
What material difference will any of that make to the edge cases of chipping a wound off an ork buggy or wounding guardsman on 2+ vs 3+ when the point of wraiths will be to throwing them into objectives with Nihilakh Necrons T1. Its 9th edition, not 8th.

It doesn't matter if they go down to a 4++ if they drop the points cost. If there overcosted for what they do, then of course you won't use them.

Versus guard or orks? Not much. Versus armies which are actually good, like harlequins, death guard (especially nurglings) or marines in gravis? Really quite impactful. Against T3, a full unit is killing 2 fewer models, which is massive. You’re right that objective secured is more valuable, of course, but that doesn’t make the nerf insignificant at all - everyone else is playing the same game, and the easier Wraiths can remove units, the more likely you are to win. Given Necrons haven’t been very good at that, seeing a nerf is disheartening.

Eyjio wrote:

Asymmetric wrote:
What material difference will any of that make to the edge cases of chipping a wound off an ork buggy or wounding guardsman on 2+ vs 3+ when the point of wraiths will be to throwing them into objectives with Nihilakh Necrons T1. Its 9th edition, not 8th.

It doesn't matter if they go down to a 4++ if they drop the points cost. If there overcosted for what they do, then of course you won't use them.

Versus guard or orks? Not much. Versus armies which are actually good, like harlequins, death guard (especially nurglings) or marines in gravis? Really quite impactful. Against T3, a full unit is killing 2 fewer models, which is massive. You’re right that objective secured is more valuable, of course, but that doesn’t make the nerf insignificant at all - everyone else is playing the same game, and the easier Wraiths can remove units, the more likely you are to win. Given Necrons haven’t been very good at that, seeing a nerf is disheartening.

I concede that against T5 objective secured units, like plague marines or custodes the nerf will make an impact (and those armies are strong at present).

Against the majority of ob sec units they should get the better of them or be no worst, including most importantly primaris. Against the real mean melee units your more just hoping to tied them up.

Here's hoping they get a strategem / protocol to situationally buff there offensive output if required.

Asymmetric wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
That comparison fails as scarabs aren't really melee unit but rather objective holder/screen/nuisance.

I don't see the difference, that is what wraiths are. You get what you pay for in points you put into the unit.

Neither unit is a melee blender

Uuk 6 wraiths will blender squad of primaris marines. Scarabs don't.

tneva82 wrote:

Asymmetric wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
That comparison fails as scarabs aren't really melee unit but rather objective holder/screen/nuisance.

I don't see the difference, that is what wraiths are. You get what you pay for in points you put into the unit.

Neither unit is a melee blender

Uuk 6 wraiths will blender squad of primaris marines. Scarabs don't.

By mathematical coinsidence, against T5, it seems that by just giving the new wraiths +1 to hit you correct precisely the damage drop coming initially from S6 to S5. Which of course also means that new wraiths with +1 are now better against T7 and T8 (since S5/S6 difference doesnt come into play there). On T6 the old wraiths are still better.

Source:
https://imgur.com/l51GaVi (using dice-hammer.com, disclaimer: I wrote the tool)

tneva82 wrote:

Asymmetric wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
That comparison fails as scarabs aren't really melee unit but rather objective holder/screen/nuisance.

I don't see the difference, that is what wraiths are. You get what you pay for in points you put into the unit.

Neither unit is a melee blender

Uuk 6 wraiths will blender squad of primaris marines. Scarabs don't.

I'd hardly call slightly more than 5 primaris dead especially impressive. Its a couple more marines than 18 scarabs would. I like wraiths, I just think most people overinflate there offensive power.

Now Skorpehk Destroyers will obliterate units on the charge. They just have glaring issue of medicore durability / speed for there relative cost.

Eyjio wrote:

Asymmetric wrote:
What material difference will any of that make to the edge cases of chipping a wound off an ork buggy or wounding guardsman on 2+ vs 3+ when the point of wraiths will be to throwing them into objectives with Nihilakh Necrons T1. Its 9th edition, not 8th.

It doesn't matter if they go down to a 4++ if they drop the points cost. If there overcosted for what they do, then of course you won't use them.

Versus guard or orks? Not much. Versus armies which are actually good, like harlequins, death guard (especially nurglings) or marines in gravis? Really quite impactful. Against T3, a full unit is killing 2 fewer models, which is massive. You’re right that objective secured is more valuable, of course, but that doesn’t make the nerf insignificant at all - everyone else is playing the same game, and the easier Wraiths can remove units, the more likely you are to win. Given Necrons haven’t been very good at that, seeing a nerf is disheartening.

I agree. Their ability to push/hold objectives vs. elite armies is now a problem and if they go down to 4++, then they will just be shot off objectives more easily by non-elite armies making them an inferior choice compared to other FA choices.

However they still can be useful for scoring secondaries like Engage on all fronts or Linebreaker.

Asymmetric wrote:

I like wraiths, I just think most people overinflate there offensive power.

Now Skorpehk Destroyers will obliterate units on the charge. They just have glaring issue of medicore durability / speed for there relative cost.

Yep. Wraiths should never be relied on to kill anything other than chaff and MSU. They're a harassing and objective holding unit. A real distraction carnifex.