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So the new Immortal and Deathmark Statline has leaked.

Immortals
+1 Toughness.
+1 Attack
+6 range on Gauss

Deathmarks
+1 Toughness
+ Now 2+ Ballistic skill
+ Gun improved to Strength 5, -2AP.
+ Gun Changed from rapid fire 1 24" to 36" Heavy.
+ Retain there ignoring look out sir rule and ummodifed 6s on wound cause mortals.

Discuss. The dream of all T5 necrons is alive.

I think with 36" range deathmarks there deepstrike hunter from cyber space rule has got to change since its not particularly synergistic.

New deathmark is better than old when used as backfield camper(though 80 pts for about 2.5 wounds vs t4 3+ isn't hottest thing).

If you use deepstrike 12" range isn't issue and old was better　vs anything but 2+ and difference was no real difference.

tneva82 wrote:
New deathmark is better than old when used as backfield camper(though 80 pts for about 2.5 wounds vs t4 3+ isn't hottest thing).

If you use deepstrike 12" range isn't issue and old was better　vs anything but 2+ and difference was no real difference.

A unit of 10 in the backfield is pretty solid and drops most normal characters in one round (primaris captain takes 2 turns). I think they're super solid as backfield snipers. T5 and a 2+ in cover makes them durable to small arms fire too.

Hoping they get the ability to mark a target before the game starts again. Maybe for +1 to wound vs that target.

I needed a unit to stay back and sit on an objective, anyways, Deathmarks might work.

Bizazedo wrote:
I needed a unit to stay back and sit on an objective, anyways, Deathmarks might work.

New Nihilakh seems a decent fit for them. Objective secured and ignore -1AP when in your deployment zone.

_______________________

I think the +1 Attack on Immortals will make tagging them with chaff or lone characters often a bad idea. The +1 toughness goes a long way against small arms fire.

Points will probably go up for deathmarks and immortals.

Makes Illuminor Szeras buffing Immortals a little more interesting — either they get BS2+ for better shooting, become T6 and turn heavily-resistant to S3 weapons, or they get S5 melee — which is still the least useful, but the extra attack makes it not as useless as before.

 p5freak wrote:
Points will probably go up for deathmarks and immortals.

I doubt it. 18 seems fair for immortals with new stats, same cost as tac marine which has 2W but worse T and weapon.

Well, it all depends how repair protocols land really.

IanVanCheese wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Points will probably go up for deathmarks and immortals.

I doubt it. 18 seems fair for immortals with new stats, same cost as tac marine which has 2W but worse T and weapon.

That would be funny. Gw admitting they pretty much deliberately overcosted immortals in ca20.

tneva82 wrote:
New deathmark is better than old when used as backfield camper(though 80 pts for about 2.5 wounds vs t4 3+ isn't hottest thing).

If you use deepstrike 12" range isn't issue and old was better　vs anything but 2+ and difference was no real difference.

Well yeah, it wasn't an issue, but it didn't matter because their guns were so weak that they didn't have a good chance at killing stuff, and even if they did kill their target they'd get wiped out.
36" range and heavy is just more useful on them. You can still use their deep strike to get into a better firing position, its just now you don't have to sacrifice them to get the most out of them.

Deathmarks seem more useful now at least, though their new profile seems somewhat far removed from their fluff.

Deathmarks losing half of their shots hurts for minimum-size squads, even with the extra strength and AP. They're effective against characters that lack an invulnerable save, but I feel like I need to bring a 10-man squad to guarantee results for anything else.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
New deathmark is better than old when used as backfield camper(though 80 pts for about 2.5 wounds vs t4 3+ isn't hottest thing).

If you use deepstrike 12" range isn't issue and old was better　vs anything but 2+ and difference was no real difference.

Well yeah, it wasn't an issue, but it didn't matter because their guns were so weak that they didn't have a good chance at killing stuff, and even if they did kill their target they'd get wiped out.
36" range and heavy is just more useful on them. You can still use their deep strike to get into a better firing position, its just now you don't have to sacrifice them to get the most out of them.

They still suck at damage. Sure you can sit at 36". You still do less damage than before.

With obscuring terrain heavy weapon on infantry isn't that hot as you need to move around

They still are just min squads to get to backfield objectives. Now just with less damage output.

I have no idea where this they suck at damage comes from. For 160pts you get a backfield sniper unit that drops a primaris character a turn reliably.

They're also a pain to shift now with T5 and not needing to get close. I think you're all forgetting how many armies rely on characters to function, and how much 10 of these forces certain armies into a super tough spot.

Marine chapter master doesn't want to poke his head out with these around. Death guard characters go bye bye, incluidng that stupid grenade man.

I'll be testing 10 of them as backfield fire support.

We've only get a small snap shot of the true picture as well.

We don't know what the deathmark special rules are.
We don't know what the at least 6 command protocols with 2 different modes do.
We don't know what stratagems interact with deathmarks.
We don't know what deathmarks points cost are in the new codex.
We don't know if any relics interact with deathmarks.
We still don't know what RP does.

All we can really say is currently, they are much more capable of being a backfield objective camper.

I think I'll bite, and add another squad of 5 to my army. I have 5 spare immortals with no purpose anymore so I may just chop those up and use the multitude of spare guns I have lying around to finish them up

IanVanCheese wrote:
I have no idea where this they suck at damage comes from. For 160pts you get a backfield sniper unit that drops a primaris character a turn reliably.

They're also a pain to shift now with T5 and not needing to get close. I think you're all forgetting how many armies rely on characters to function, and how much 10 of these forces certain armies into a super tough spot.

Marine chapter master doesn't want to poke his head out with these around. Death guard characters go bye bye, incluidng that stupid grenade man.

I'll be testing 10 of them as backfield fire support.

Well was it good damage dealing before? Because new one does less damage vs t4 3+. Even less if target has 4++ like the characters you said.

Never heard anybody say deathmarks good damge output even when they did more...

And i doubt death guard character worries about 2 wounds that much. Then he deletes the　squad.

Whilst Deathmarks may not deal as much damage at once, they should deal more damage overall as they aren't going to die instantly like they did before.

Before they would drop, deal their burst damage and die.

Now you can harass the enemy constantly over the course of the game, unless your opponent goes out of his way to destroy them.

As you can now place them in cover a safe distance away, effort is now required to remove them, which means that if they do die other things might live long enough to be a problem.

tneva82 wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
I have no idea where this they suck at damage comes from. For 160pts you get a backfield sniper unit that drops a primaris character a turn reliably.

They're also a pain to shift now with T5 and not needing to get close. I think you're all forgetting how many armies rely on characters to function, and how much 10 of these forces certain armies into a super tough spot.

Marine chapter master doesn't want to poke his head out with these around. Death guard characters go bye bye, incluidng that stupid grenade man.

I'll be testing 10 of them as backfield fire support.

Well was it good damage dealing before? Because new one does less damage vs t4 3+. Even less if target has 4++ like the characters you said.

Never heard anybody say deathmarks good damge output even when they did more...

And i doubt death guard character worries about 2 wounds that much. Then he deletes the　squad.

Are you still honestly trying to take the position that the old version was better? Seriously?

You know what the army was missing in a pretty noticeable way? Snipers that actually snipe, which was a literal complaint many ITT had about death marks and their short comings. Now we actually have a unit that not only snipes, but better then most other armies in the game and your somehow taking the stance that a few bolter shots were better? You must be trolling.

Not only did they get a massive boot to durability, but they actually can take out buff characters or at the very minimum keep them honest and hidden. If you want short ranged double tappers then just take gauss immortals or tomb blades lol. They are way better at that role DM formerly had, which was the exact reason no one used DM. Apparently you never played VS anyone with omniscramblers or auspex scan strats. Nothing like your ethereal interceptors being intercepted themselves

 Red Corsair wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:
I have no idea where this they suck at damage comes from. For 160pts you get a backfield sniper unit that drops a primaris character a turn reliably.

They're also a pain to shift now with T5 and not needing to get close. I think you're all forgetting how many armies rely on characters to function, and how much 10 of these forces certain armies into a super tough spot.

Marine chapter master doesn't want to poke his head out with these around. Death guard characters go bye bye, incluidng that stupid grenade man.

I'll be testing 10 of them as backfield fire support.

Well was it good damage dealing before? Because new one does less damage vs t4 3+. Even less if target has 4++ like the characters you said.

Never heard anybody say deathmarks good damge output even when they did more...

And i doubt death guard character worries about 2 wounds that much. Then he deletes the　squad.

Are you still honestly trying to take the position that the old version was better? Seriously?

You know what the army was missing in a pretty noticeable way? Snipers that actually snipe, which was a literal complaint many ITT had about death marks and their short comings. Now we actually have a unit that not only snipes, but better then most other armies in the game and your somehow taking the stance that a few bolter shots were better? You must be trolling.

Not only did they get a massive boot to durability, but they actually can take out buff characters or at the very minimum keep them honest and hidden. If you want short ranged double tappers then just take gauss immortals or tomb blades lol. They are way better at that role DM formerly had, which was the exact reason no one used DM. Apparently you never played VS anyone with omniscramblers or auspex scan strats. Nothing like your ethereal interceptors being intercepted themselves

I completely agree with you. I guess to each their own but that old gun was hot garbage. Ive seen people complaining that they are now Heavy yet they also don’t mention being bs2 now.

 Red Corsair wrote:
[q

Are you still honestly trying to take the position that the old version was better? Seriously?

You know what the army was missing in a pretty noticeable way? Snipers that actually snipe, which was a literal complaint many ITT had about death marks and their short comings. Now we actually have a unit that not only snipes, but better then most other armies in the game and your somehow taking the stance that a few bolter shots were better? You must be trolling.

Not only did they get a massive boot to durability, but they actually can take out buff characters or at the very minimum keep them honest and hidden. If you want short ranged double tappers then just take gauss immortals or tomb blades lol. They are way better at that role DM formerly had, which was the exact reason no one used DM. Apparently you never played VS anyone with omniscramblers or auspex scan strats. Nothing like your ethereal interceptors being intercepted themselves

I'm saying old gun had more damage output aka DAMGE CAUSED TO ENEMY unless opponent has 2+ save and even then you aren't causing even 1 wound more per 10 deathmark. That's not an opinion but fact proven by mathematics. If you don't see them too bad your math is worse than elementary school kid.

Of course if you want backfield sniper then fair enough. It's different role and you are paying points for abilities you don't use. Your damage output is also bad as usual. It was bad before and it is worse than it was before(again mathematical fact).

Their damage output wasn't good enough to take out characters before and with reduced output(in particular vs 4++ targets) they aren't going to take out anybody out easily either. So you take potshots, don't kill target and enemy can easily wipe them out. T5 is fine but 1W models with no inv save are paper thin targets with no real durability. Also being heavy you can't even get reliably LOS without degrading your own firepower while reverse is not true. You need to degrade your firepower to get target, opponent can take you out without worrying about that.

Maybe also besides math you should work on reading comprehension? I didn't say old gun was better. I said it's DAMAGE OUTPUT was better which is different thing. I also said it's sidestep. Aka not buff, not nerf. Because damage output was and is bad and you just trade role and unit still sucks just as it did before.

I can comprehend just fine.

You just like to make garbage inflammatory posts without taking a minute to review prior to hitting send.

In the N&R you literally missed the toughness boost as well as the BS2+

Slow down and stop trying to be the first person to opine on things and maybe you will make less mistakes. Or you know, own up to being wrong and stop doubling down on your garbage hot takes.

I mean he's wrong about the new damage output being lower on T4 3+.

New DM = 5.09 wounds
Old deathmarks in RF range = 4.44 wounds

Vs a 4++ the new ones have a slightly lower output, it's true.

New DM = 4.17 wounds
Old deathmarks in RF range = 4.44 wounds

I also dispute that it's super easy to shift 10 wounds of T5 infantry chilling in your backfield.

It takes over 1200pts of intercessors rapid firing to kill a single unit in cover (about 1000pts if in tactical doctrine). That's pretty resilient as infantry goes. Take them as new Nihilakh and they shrug ap-1 and the numbers get even better.

Played my first friendly necron 9th edition game yesterday. The new MWBD is great. Used it twice on two DDAs. Had two stalkers with heat ray, which performed great, QS helped against LC and ML, burned infantry at close range and in melee, killed vehicles with its melta profile. Played two anni barges for the first time ever, and they helped killing infantry with tesla, and got me some VPs for engage on all fronts. A victory for the necrons against AM/Dkok.

Damage output not being good enough for deathmarks is all about how many you take. If you think 10 cannot reliably drop a character, then take 2 squads of 10. That should definitely do the trick. If two squads isn't enough, then go for 3 ?

I don't think it will be wasted, because there are always characters to kill. Every army has at least two, if not more. Even if they have killed every character, then go for the sergeants.

I mean, regardless of the list I built I wouldn't be overly happy to see 10 or 20 deathmarks ranging up across the field. As long as you back it up with a little armor cracking for those handful of armies that like to slap their characters in vehicles. Such as the occasional ork list.

I would also like to add, that if deathmark killing becomes a priority, that kind of interferes with your opponent trying to wipe out other necron infantry units. Like he needs to kill your deathmark squads, and then he also needs to wipe out completely your immortal squads or necron warrior squads or they will RP back up (even based on old RP rules).

At some point, your opponent won't have that many infantry killing guns to do them all.

If you bring a skew list that has no vehicles. Then your whole army is an infantry only target. That would create a lot of target priority problems for your opponent.

Would you count destroyers and the like as vehicles? They sort of sit in a place similar to sentinels in my mind. Besides that do necrons have much anti tank that's not a vehicle/walker?

I think destroyers are more like infantry. They are T5, and have only a few wounds per model. Vehicle are usually 8W or more and are T6 and above, and have quantum shielding and living metal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cody.d. wrote:
Would you count destroyers and the like as vehicles? They sort of sit in a place similar to sentinels in my mind. Besides that do necrons have much anti tank that's not a vehicle/walker?

Heavy destroyers for long ranged shooting, C'tan can punch out vehicles in close combat. So can warscythe lychguard and the new scorpeck destroyers and destroyer lord I supposed. The overlord has a Tachyon arrow as well, though its good for only 1 shot. I suppose if you pour enough shots into a vehicle, it will eventually get chipped to death ... lol