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I assume C'tan Shards have lost the character keyword for targeting purposes now?

Because if they haven't, and they have new necrodermis rules of 3 wounds max per phase, then they are going to be laughable strong.

Now we know why Ophydian Destroyers have Living Metal. Because RP is almost worthless on a 3 wound model. Hopefully many other multi wound models also have LM.

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
It seems like Thousand Sons are going to wipe the floor with Necrons.

A typical build yes. If you take gloom prisims and ctan you can counter them and they cant counter you. They are pretty resilient to necron shooting though. Can crush them in melee though with certain units.

You say that they can't counter us, but all their Smites and other psychic powers negate RPs entirely.

You could use the Szarekhan faction to get that 5+ fnp against mortal wounds which would really help. And that stacks with RP against melee or shooting MWs.

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
It seems like Thousand Sons are going to wipe the floor with Necrons.

A typical build yes. If you take gloom prisims and ctan you can counter them and they cant counter you. They are pretty resilient to necron shooting though. Can crush them in melee though with certain units.

You say that they can't counter us, but all their Smites and other psychic powers negate RPs entirely.

I mean they can't counter the ctan abilities. You can counter their spells though with a gloom prism. Plus IDK how effective this would be but also Illuminator has some anti psychic abilities. One of the dynasties has a 5++ to mortal wounds as well.

I don't agree with Thousand Son's being an answer, d3 mortal wounds to a 20 man warrior squad is not game-changing.

i would say 1k sons would counter necrons pretty hard if they still had old smite bonuses.
They lost that in 9th so realistically theyre only causing ~6 mortals, and thats assuming they got that many psykers close enough to a single unit and not having 1-2 slightly closer to another unit as they cant "point" their spells.
My roommate has 1k sons and when their smite didnt increase in cost he would get tons of them off but generally spread across my army just because thats how things got placed due to terrain.

 vipoid wrote:
It seems like Thousand Sons are going to wipe the floor with Necrons.

I play Thousand Sons and don't feel like this at all. We lost our Smite bonus.

9th is all about scoring, and Thousand Sons give up 15 VPs every game by default now, which is a pretty serious downside. negating RP on a few Necron models doesn't really balance that out.

Ah, good catch. I forgot TS don't get the Smite bonus anymore.

 CKO wrote:
I don't agree with Thousand Son's being an answer, d3 mortal wounds to a 20 man warrior squad is not game-changing.

D3 maybe not. Try 20. Been subjected to that. 2 turns and no real army left

I don't really see the big issue with the new RP, yeah multi wound things are way worse but do we really use the destroyers for their staying power? I'm just super excited to run a bunch of Flayed ones now since they will be very durable and cool looking.

The way I understand it, the new Reanimation offers a very comfortable situation to your enemy.

3 leman russ-like units are facing two units of 3+ wound necron models (unit A and unit B)

First leman russ splits his two volleys firing first at unit A. One necron 3W dies and has no real chance of reanimating. Second volley targets unit B, one necron 3W dies with effectively no RP.

Second leman russ does the same. First volley targets unit A, kills one model. no RP. Second volley targets unit B. necrons get lucky, no kills, but one guy with 1W left. A couple of lasguns finishes it off. No RP.

Third leman russ, .... rince and repeat. Our glorius 5 model killy-killy unit is now 2 models left. Unless he can get some other unit in range too. RP effectively canceled out in its entirity for 3w models with some careful fire planning.

In hilariously other words: He can comfortably use an attrition like game style to beat Necrons. That table certainly turned.

Perhaps 3 wound models will rely on things other than just reanimation protocols to be effective in the game?

torblind wrote:
The way I understand it, the new Reanimation offers a very comfortable situation to your enemy.

3 leman russ-like units are facing two units of 3+ wound necron models (unit A and unit B)

First leman russ splits his two volleys firing first at unit A. One necron 3W dies and has no real chance of reanimating. Second volley targets unit B, one necron 3W dies with effectively no RP.

Second leman russ does the same. First volley targets unit A, kills one model. no RP. Second volley targets unit B. necrons get lucky, no kills, but one guy with 1W left. A couple of lasguns finishes it off. No RP.

Third leman russ, .... rince and repeat. Our glorius 5 model killy-killy unit is now 2 models left. Unless he can get some other unit in range too. RP effectively canceled out in its entirity for 3w models with some careful fire planning.

In hilariously other words: He can comfortably use an attrition like game style to beat Necrons. That table certainly turned.

And that is why all fallen necron models should be eligible for revival until the unit is wiped out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
Perhaps 3 wound models will rely on things other than just reanimation protocols to be effective in the game?

Maybe, but does it say anything on their profiles? Apparently Ophydians have Living Metal, but do the other multi-wound models have it, and what does Living Metal even do now?
It would be funny if Living Metal regenerated a wound after every enemy unit attack. That would cause a stir.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
Perhaps 3 wound models will rely on things other than just reanimation protocols to be effective in the game?

Maybe, but does it say anything on their profiles? Apparently Ophydians have Living Metal, but do the other multi-wound models have it, and what does Living Metal even do now?
It would be funny if Living Metal regenerated a wound after every enemy unit attack. That would cause a stir.

Well I hope its the case otherwise Necrons are going to be rather boring if the entire army that isn't a monolith/silentking/C'tan relies upon reanimation to do anything in the game. Remembering that many other armies don't always have similar measures.

I'm just saying that Reanimation Protocols not being the best thing for multi-wound models might not be the problem some are making it out to be. Plus until we know the full rules and the interactions possible, we can't really say what is or isn't good just yet. Once we've a more complete picture we can better judge things.


One might even argue that getting your single multiwound unit into range of 3 separate leman russ tanks is a poor choice of positioning in the part of the necron player; thus allowing their opponent to do just that tactic. Plus don't overlook the fact that they've still had to use all three tanks in one turn on one unit.

 Overread wrote:

One might even argue that getting your single multiwound unit into range of 3 separate leman russ tanks is a poor choice of positioning in the part of the necron player; thus allowing their opponent to do just that tactic. Plus don't overlook the fact that they've still had to use all three tanks in one turn on one unit.

No that was two units. Necron 3W models are not soaking any fire at this point. RP is not causing over kill any more. He can comfortably just barely kill one off with each unit that is able to do so. Evenly distributing his fire power over our army instead of wasing it on over kill. This is what he always wants to do, and RP is rewarding him for it.

And if a missile launcher rolles a 2, he can just plunk the last wound off with some long range bolters.

torblind wrote:

 Overread wrote:

One might even argue that getting your single multiwound unit into range of 3 separate leman russ tanks is a poor choice of positioning in the part of the necron player; thus allowing their opponent to do just that tactic. Plus don't overlook the fact that they've still had to use all three tanks in one turn on one unit.

No that was two units. Necron 3W models are not soaking any fire at this point. RP is not causing over kill any more. He can comfortably just barely kill one off with each unit that is able to do so. Evenly distributing his fire power over our army instead of wasing it on over kill. This is what he always wants to do, and RP is rewarding him for it.

And if a missile launcher rolles a 2, he can just plunk the last wound off with some long range bolters.

You have terrain and deployment so this world where your opponent gets to shoot all of his units at the best possible targets to maximize our weakness is not going to happen. Statistically speaking our multi-wound creatures are toughness 5 so that means they wound on 3's with battle cannons than they have to roll damage which is another die roll. Not to mention it is actually a good thing as your opponent will actually decide to take a shot at killing something, when the obvious choice should be to kill the unit on the objective.

Be prepared to see opponents screwing up target priority.

Allowing models to always attempt to revive with it triggering after each attack would be broken. Theres no possible way that could be balanced.
Even if it was on a 6+, it would mean you literally cannot kill a 20man warrior blob unless you actually forced them to suffer enough wounds to get totally wiped. Any "random shot" at that unit would potentially trigger more to stand up than was there when that "random shot" hit them. Gotta remember its not actually that common for multiple units to throw a bucket of dice that are actually accurate AND lethal.

The change to not allow previously dead models to revive was expected. The change to the multiwound models was not and imo stepped too far.

 CKO wrote:

torblind wrote:

 Overread wrote:

One might even argue that getting your single multiwound unit into range of 3 separate leman russ tanks is a poor choice of positioning in the part of the necron player; thus allowing their opponent to do just that tactic. Plus don't overlook the fact that they've still had to use all three tanks in one turn on one unit.

No that was two units. Necron 3W models are not soaking any fire at this point. RP is not causing over kill any more. He can comfortably just barely kill one off with each unit that is able to do so. Evenly distributing his fire power over our army instead of wasing it on over kill. This is what he always wants to do, and RP is rewarding him for it.

And if a missile launcher rolles a 2, he can just plunk the last wound off with some long range bolters.

You have terrain and deployment so this world where your opponent gets to shoot all of his units at the best possible targets to maximize our weakness is not going to happen. Statistically speaking our multi-wound creatures are toughness 5 so that means they wound on 3's with battle cannons than they have to roll damage which is another die roll. Not to mention it is actually a good thing as your opponent will actually decide to take a shot at killing something, when the obvious choice should be to kill the unit on the objective.

Be prepared to see opponents screwing up target priority.

Of course you can deny yourself shooting　with your destroyers. But the moment you opt to shoot you give opponent chance to do that.

You keeping destroyers/etc back rather than contributing is win for ig already

Do people think the restrictions on the protocols is bad? Or does it make it a balanced rule? Needing to be within 6” of a hero and having to have an overlord on the field in particular.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Do people think the restrictions on the protocols is bad? Or does it make it a balanced rule? Needing to be within 6” of a hero and having to have an overlord on the field in particular.

Looking at it on its own I think it's a significant limitation of the rule, I mean how many nobles are we going to be bringing? But on the other hand, if this is an indication that, say, Space Marine Doctrines are going to work similarly then I think that's a good direction to take the game in so that we have fewer full army buffs layered on top of each other everywhere.

 TheArchmagos wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Do people think the restrictions on the protocols is bad? Or does it make it a balanced rule? Needing to be within 6” of a hero and having to have an overlord on the field in particular.

Looking at it on its own I think it's a significant limitation of the rule, I mean how many nobles are we going to be bringing? But on the other hand, if this is an indication that, say, Space Marine Doctrines are going to work similarly then I think that's a good direction to take the game in so that we have fewer full army buffs layered on top of each other everywhere.

I have a feeling Doctrines won’t be changing. But if they do I agree it’d be a good direction to take these kinds of rules.

The protocols themselves are in effect in you're within range of any character, it doesn't have to be a noble. At least going by the wording on the Warcom article.

OTOH based on WD noble is related to protocols.

Maybe theres some interaction or either WD or article is in error

From my understanding you just need a noble to be on the field and then near any character.

EDIT: I could be wrong but from memory the original article that mentions protocols says they need to be within 6” of characters. So what’s the point of the extra aura range if that’s how it works? Or am I making up the 6” range.

EDIT 2: lol nvm. I’m being a derpatron.

torblind wrote:
The way I understand it, the new Reanimation offers a very comfortable situation to your enemy.

3 leman russ-like units are facing two units of 3+ wound necron models (unit A and unit B)

First leman russ splits his two volleys firing first at unit A. One necron 3W dies and has no real chance of reanimating. Second volley targets unit B, one necron 3W dies with effectively no RP.

Second leman russ does the same. First volley targets unit A, kills one model. no RP. Second volley targets unit B. necrons get lucky, no kills, but one guy with 1W left. A couple of lasguns finishes it off. No RP.

Third leman russ, .... rince and repeat. Our glorius 5 model killy-killy unit is now 2 models left. Unless he can get some other unit in range too. RP effectively canceled out in its entirity for 3w models with some careful fire planning.

In hilariously other words: He can comfortably use an attrition like game style to beat Necrons. That table certainly turned.

I still think this is far better than the current RP as it at least gives the Necron player the CHANCE to make RP roll.
Currently you just wipe the unit and be done with them. No RP possible.

And I personally think it's perfectly fluffy for it to be more difficult to repair multi wound models. They are more complex and harder to kill, so they'd naturally be harder to repair.
Warriors, otoh, should be super easy to repair by comparison.
Big units of Warriors with boosted RPs will be very hard to shift now. Finally.

-

Well you still can wipe unit and no rp. Lots of units that do that.

But yes it's slight improvement for 1w models. Multiwound models it might just as well not exist but that's just　sidestep from 8e. Useless then, useless now. Different reason, same result.

20 warriors　at least might get few rolls. Opponent will thin first with small firepower, then do remaining　15 or so at once

tneva82 wrote:
Well you still can wipe unit and no rp. Lots of units that do that.

But yes it's slight improvement for 1w models. Multiwound models it might just as well not exist but that's just　sidestep from 8e. Useless then, useless now. Different reason, same result.

20 warriors　at least might get few rolls. Opponent will thin first with small firepower, then do remaining　15 or so at once

I don't know why you are having a hard time using terrain and deployment to protect your units, if your only protection is RP you are doing something wrong. I have been playing Necrons/Imperium for nearly 20 years and RP has never been useless. This codex increases durability by giving more units t5 and giving warriors a re-roll RP of 1. The second and most important thing is the offensive capabilities of our multi-wound units. They are less durable but they hit like a ton of bricks.

We exchanged durability for offensive prowess with our multi-wound models. We have -4 AP weapons minimum of 2D weapons all over the place!

If your necron warriors can shoot at the enemy here's newsflash. So can they. Necron warriors don't have ignore LOS weapon so if you can see them so can they.

And 40k is so deadly atm that 20 T4 4+ wounds is basically no issue.

And reroll 1 for RP...Here's news. To use that you need to actually ROLL for RP. Now in case you haven't read the RP rule(old and new). If whole unit dies you don't roll RP. Reroll RP is no use if you don't roll for it. Imagine that.

tneva82 wrote:
If your necron warriors can shoot at the enemy here's newsflash. So can they. Necron warriors don't have ignore LOS weapon so if you can see them so can they.

And 40k is so deadly atm that 20 T4 4+ wounds is basically no issue.

And reroll 1 for RP...Here's news. To use that you need to actually ROLL for RP. Now in case you haven't read the RP rule(old and new). If whole unit dies you don't roll RP. Reroll RP is no use if you don't roll for it. Imagine that.

Can I have an example, what unit can wipe out 20 t4 4+ wounds?

i hear people say that all the time that 20 4+ (or even 3+ for that matter given cover or the protocol active) models are still easy enough to wipe out in 1 go.
What unit that doesnt cost considerably more than that 20 warrior blob can do this without needing some insane outside help (i.e. increasing its cost more to do it) or some ludicrous luck?
I play orks. My 6++ save deathskull boyz dont suffer that much casualties from a single attack, how the hell would a 3/4+ suffer it?

The point of the new RP is no single unit is going to deny that RP test, unless you get just the worst possible luck ever.

Everything that has the AP to ignore the armor lacks the RoF to kill 20 models (both accuracy and wounding). Anything that has the RoF, lacks the AP. The only exceptions are utilizing outside sources (i.e. Auras or strats) which add extra cost to the situation.

I swear orks are the only players that actually understand the concept of "my health is a resource" - i will gladly sacrifice a 20man warrior squad if you burn enough points worth of shooting to deny my RP that you ended up spending significantly more points to remove them than i did to bring them in the first place.