Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i hear people say that all the time that 20 4+ (or even 3+ for that matter given cover or the protocol active) models are still easy enough to wipe out in 1 go.
What unit that doesnt cost considerably more than that 20 warrior blob can do this without needing some insane outside help (i.e. increasing its cost more to do it) or some ludicrous luck?
I play orks. My 6++ save deathskull boyz dont suffer that much casualties from a single attack, how the hell would a 3/4+ suffer it?

The point of the new RP is no single unit is going to deny that RP test, unless you get just the worst possible luck ever.

Everything that has the AP to ignore the armor lacks the RoF to kill 20 models (both accuracy and wounding). Anything that has the RoF, lacks the AP. The only exceptions are utilizing outside sources (i.e. Auras or strats) which add extra cost to the situation.

I swear orks are the only players that actually understand the concept of "my health is a resource" - i will gladly sacrifice a 20man warrior squad if you burn enough points worth of shooting to deny my RP that you ended up spending significantly more points to remove them than i did to bring them in the first place.

It was a trap, I know there isn't a unit like that! I just wanted to hear his answer, his last few post have been very negative! (Thousand Sons mortal wounds, RP sucks, they can wipe the whole unit out, useless on multi-wound models)

Oh its not just here i hear that all the time in person or on Discord too.

Hence why i said it the way i did. Legit i am hearing that ALL. THE. TIME. so people are basically thinking RP will never go off anyway.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Oh its not just here i hear that all the time in person or on Discord too.

Hence why i said it the way i did. Legit i am hearing that ALL. THE. TIME. so people are basically thinking RP will never go off anyway.

A Leman Russ Punisher cannot even do it! They wound on 3's you save on a 4+/5+ if they take tank ace.

I am excited about resurrection orbs if they allow you to re-roll or +1 they are worth it.

There is a few units out there that can wipe a 20-man unit in one go, but not a ton. Aggressors come to mind.

Yes aggressors can, but i'd be kinda surprised to see a full warrior squad get hit by aggressors.

Aggressors are short ranged and are so lethal for their laughably cheap price tag that they are valid targets for proper anti-tank guns. I always kill them the instant i can see them. They piss me off lol.

I'd expect any warrior unit to get hit by aggressors to already be around half strength anyway. Whcih at that point yeah byebye warriors lol

 Sasori wrote:
There is a few units out there that can wipe a 20-man unit in one go, but not a ton. Aggressors come to mind.

Captain Aizen it can happen but 72 shots equal 48 hits which means 24 wounds than with the warrior's save 12 or 16 dead Warriors if the correct doctrine is in place.



Edited after Sasori reminded me of buffs and the ability to fire twice which means they can on average kill the unit without RP.

 CKO wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
There is a few units out there that can wipe a 20-man unit in one go, but not a ton. Aggressors come to mind.

Captain Aizen it can happen but 72 shots equal 48 hits which means 24 wounds than with the warrior's save 12 or 16 dead Marines if the correct doctrine is in place.

It's safe to assume that there will be some rerolls on the marine side, as well as a very large chance of firing twice.

I stand corrected Aizen(Sasori)! Your spiritual pressure and wisdom have always been superior but, you still fear my combat prowess!

On a more serious note, we do have a plethora of ways to deal with Gravis units with the new codex at a safe distance.

aggressors wont be able to wipe a squad out since the new RP means half your guys will get back up.

Since they have to declare both volley's of their attacks at the same time, they will be wasting alot of their shots.

I know it's early, but do you think the new RP rules might be enough to make Silver Tide lists viable again?

I def think ghost arks are gonna make a comeback.

2 ghost arks with warriors inside, 3 squads of immortals, a CCB, the deceiver, the void dragon, one big squad of warriors for backfield, one squad of shooty destroyers seems like a good 9th list.

Not sure what the points is on that atm, but its got early game mobility, a durable backfield unit and some midfield threat.

 vipoid wrote:
I know it's early, but do you think the new RP rules might be enough to make Silver Tide lists viable again?

No, you cannot win a game on durability alone. It may be possible if the gauss reaper can get rapid-fire out to 18 inches.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
aggressors wont be able to wipe a squad out since the new RP means half your guys will get back up.

Since they have to declare both volley's of their attacks at the same time, they will be wasting alot of their shots.

If I'm reading the previewed rule correctly in that you only roll for models killed in the current attack...

6 aggressors with no buffs at all (including doctrines) kill an average of 12 warriors on the 1st volley (they do get blast on frag launchers). Maximum buffed warriors (+1 to RP from somewhere) with the latest datasheet rerolling 1's get an average of 7 back, aggressors shoot again and take 12 again, 7 come back again. 10 warriors are gone which doesn't sound bad for standing up to aggressors incredible shooting, but the point is that those 10 are never coming back at all under any circumstances. Under new RP it seems like its just a nerfed version of disgusting resiliance rather than a regeneration ability. If the previews are the whole picture then necrons cannot hide a depleted unit to regen it back up, strats to put RP on wraiths are laughably bad, and small multi wound units have such a low chance of passing RP the rule may as well not apply (1/27 chance of 1 3w model standing up, if failed on the 1st roll its dead for ever).

New RP rules feel way worse for multi wound units (astronomically low chance of success), and substantially worse for single wound units (fail once = permadeath). I kinda feel that a much simpler solution would be to have changed nothing on the RP rule itself, but add stratagems for at least 2 scenarios:
1. Last model in unit is wiped out, enact stratagem that allows for an immediate RP roll. Boom, problem of focusing a unit is gone.
2. Other factions that do not have a thematic ability to regen units have "recycle a unit" stratagems (remove unit, bring it back on from an edge at full strength), necrons should have this.

 vipoid wrote:
I know it's early, but do you think the new RP rules might be enough to make Silver Tide lists viable again?

Quite possible, though the main issue aside that was hamstringing it besides RP, is the inability for Gauss to really kill tanks anymore. You'll need to supplement the tide with a fair amount of Anti-tank options.

So are we disappointed about the Necrons so far? It seems a lot are disappointed with protocols, and Reanimation seems like it’s great for warriors but has gotten a nerf to big things.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
So are we disappointed about the Necrons so far? It seems a lot are disappointed with protocols, and Reanimation seems like it’s great for warriors but has gotten a nerf to big things.

No, not really. RP is still an improvement over what we have now. It's great on 1W models, good on 2W, and not great on 3W+. That being said, the way it's worded leaves a lot of room for rules to turn knobs and dials for improvents, as well as the WHFB post saying that as well.

My main beef for the protocols is you have to go through an extensive amount of hoops to use them, that does not seem needed at the power level they provide. Several are really good, like sudden storm, but it still doesn't quite justify what's going on here.

We also know that there has been tons of improvements to our unit profiles from all the updated datasheets. Nearly ever unit has been improved in some manner.

There is a lot to be happy about from what we know, and still a lot more that needs to be revealed. I'll hold out judgement until I see the full rules and points, but the army is 100% in a much better place from what we have seen.

Not at all.
As long as they dont overpriced the gak out of us, Necrons are totally fine. RP is more of a bonus right now than something you rely on.

Okay awesome I’m glad to hear. I was seeing a lot of negative stuff and was a little worried.

Insularum wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
aggressors wont be able to wipe a squad out since the new RP means half your guys will get back up.

Since they have to declare both volley's of their attacks at the same time, they will be wasting alot of their shots.

If I'm reading the previewed rule correctly in that you only roll for models killed in the current attack...

6 aggressors with no buffs at all (including doctrines) kill an average of 12 warriors on the 1st volley (they do get blast on frag launchers). Maximum buffed warriors (+1 to RP from somewhere) with the latest datasheet rerolling 1's get an average of 7 back, aggressors shoot again and take 12 again, 7 come back again. 10 warriors are gone which doesn't sound bad for standing up to aggressors incredible shooting, but the point is that those 10 are never coming back at all under any circumstances. We dont know that. Ghost arks could bring some back, and there may be new strats Under new RP it seems like its just a nerfed version of disgusting resiliance rather than a regeneration ability. If the previews are the whole picture then necrons cannot hide a depleted unit to regen it back up, strats to put RP on wraiths are laughably bad, and small multi wound units have such a low chance of passing RP the rule may as well not apply (1/27 chance of 1 3w model standing up, if failed on the 1st roll its dead for ever).There could be something new that increases the wound pool (hopefully reanimators and spiders do this).

New RP rules feel way worse for multi wound units (astronomically low chance of success), and substantially worse for single wound units (fail once = permadeath). I kinda feel that a much simpler solution would be to have changed nothing on the RP rule itself, but add stratagems for at least 2 scenarios:
1. Last model in unit is wiped out, enact stratagem that allows for an immediate RP roll. Boom, problem of focusing a unit is gone.
2. Other factions that do not have a thematic ability to regen units have "recycle a unit" stratagems (remove unit, bring it back on from an edge at full strength), necrons should have this.I agree that crons should get this with warriors.

Insularum wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
aggressors wont be able to wipe a squad out since the new RP means half your guys will get back up.

Since they have to declare both volley's of their attacks at the same time, they will be wasting alot of their shots.

If I'm reading the previewed rule correctly in that you only roll for models killed in the current attack...

6 aggressors with no buffs at all (including doctrines) kill an average of 12 warriors on the 1st volley (they do get blast on frag launchers). Maximum buffed warriors (+1 to RP from somewhere) with the latest datasheet rerolling 1's get an average of 7 back, aggressors shoot again and take 12 again, 7 come back again. 10 warriors are gone which doesn't sound bad for standing up to aggressors incredible shooting, but the point is that those 10 are never coming back at all under any circumstances. Under new RP it seems like its just a nerfed version of disgusting resiliance rather than a regeneration ability. If the previews are the whole picture then necrons cannot hide a depleted unit to regen it back up, strats to put RP on wraiths are laughably bad, and small multi wound units have such a low chance of passing RP the rule may as well not apply (1/27 chance of 1 3w model standing up, if failed on the 1st roll its dead for ever).

New RP rules feel way worse for multi wound units (astronomically low chance of success), and substantially worse for single wound units (fail once = permadeath). I kinda feel that a much simpler solution would be to have changed nothing on the RP rule itself, but add stratagems for at least 2 scenarios:
1. Last model in unit is wiped out, enact stratagem that allows for an immediate RP roll. Boom, problem of focusing a unit is gone.
2. Other factions that do not have a thematic ability to regen units have "recycle a unit" stratagems (remove unit, bring it back on from an edge at full strength), necrons should have this.

I think the main problem is assuming that aggressors have no buffs, that's almost always not going to be the case in practice. We also don't know what ways there will be to buff it to 4+, so putting that in the comparison doesn't make a lot of sense.

The new RP rules are not substantially worse for single wound units, because you actually get to roll for units now. In a vacuum the old RP looks great. In practice it was almost never relevant. You either counted on your player not knowing how Necrons worked, or in very rare circumstances you got to make a roll for a depleted unit. That rare circumstance did not make up for the built in cost that you were paying and never getting to use most of the time.

I really want Resurrection Orbs to go back to being a constant aura effect.

I’m also interested in Rites of Reanimation. Curious if this is a +1 to RP or if it’s a new way to bring back dead dudes in your command phase or something.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
I’m also interested in Rites of Reanimation. Curious if this is a +1 to RP or if it’s a new way to bring back dead dudes in your command phase or something.

+1 to Reanimation is the cryptek ability, and Szarekh isn't a cryptek.

Re: the aggressor debate, while they are certainly close to the perfect matchup to warriors anything that shoots or fights twice is gonna be pretty upset when Necrons get back up between attack resolutions.

I have a feeling everybody here plays against fluff players, noobs or really weak armies. I´ve had multiple times were my 20 warriors were shot down in 1 turn.
And even if they used 3 times the points then my warriors it's still frustrating if it happens on first turn, you still lost 240 points of shooting, or holding obj.
And yes i use terrain, but they can still move to see you, there are a lot of MW dealing stuff so no save against that and there are like lots of armies who can use a shoot again strata (necrons should get that to)
And T5 is fun, but 1k sons and nids have lots of S5+ weapons.

I'm not a fan of the new RP rules, but i think we should wait for the codex to really know if its a nerf or not.
They should have just made it a fnp again... ist that better?

Krull wrote:
I have a feeling everybody here plays against fluff players, noobs or really weak armies. I´ve had multiple times were my 20 warriors were shot down in 1 turn.
And even if they used 3 times the points then my warriors it's still frustrating if it happens on first turn, you still lost 240 points of shooting, or holding obj.
And yes i use terrain, but they can still move to see you, there are a lot of MW dealing stuff so no save against that and there are like lots of armies who can use a shoot again strata (necrons should get that to)
And T5 is fun, but 1k sons and nids have lots of S5+ weapons.

I'm not a fan of the new RP rules, but i think we should wait for the codex to really know if its a nerf or not.
They should have just made it a fnp again... ist that better?

Not, necessarily. If the warriors are being shot by 2+ dmg weapons, you’re only having to roll 1 dice per warrior to get them back up, as opposed to FnP where you’d be rolling 2+ dice and needing them all to succeed for them to live. It gets worse than FnP, I think, when you get 3+ wound models dying and it becomes the opposite way around.

We haven’t seen though some of the other rules which might help out higher wound models. Rites of Reanimation, for example, could be a way to bring back models who haven’t come back from RP.

Tiberius501 wrote:I’m also interested in Rites of Reanimation. Curious if this is a +1 to RP or if it’s a new way to bring back dead dudes in your command phase or something.

I suspect it might be some sort of healing mechanic, similar to some abilities in AoS that allow you to resurrect a certain number of dead models in the Command Phase. If that is the case it's another piece of the puzzle affecting Necron durability, especially for multi-wound models which are hurt pretty hard by the new RP rules.

Krull wrote:I have a feeling everybody here plays against fluff players, noobs or really weak armies. I´ve had multiple times were my 20 warriors were shot down in 1 turn.

At the moment that's certainly the case but the new RP mechanic makes it more difficult to kill any units of 1-Wound models. It's trivial to direct enough firepower at a unit to kill it in most 40k games so whether you have 20 Necron Warriors or 30 Boyz, you're probably going to lose them if your opponent wants to kill them. The new RP rules make that much harder, especially on Warriors because you actually need to wipe the unit out with a single unit's shooting to prevent RP. Even leaving 1 Warrior out of 20 alive means you're likely facing anywhere between 8-12 when your next unit shoots.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
So are we disappointed about the Necrons so far? It seems a lot are disappointed with protocols, and Reanimation seems like it’s great for warriors but has gotten a nerf to big things.

I'm solidly on the fence right now. A lot of it will come down to points, especially for the multi-wound units. If those are still priced as if they actually get any benefit from RP they could be pretty useless. The Protocols rules annoy me quite a bit. There are so many hoops to jump through and conditions to meet compared to, say, Doctrines, that it feels like the bonuses they provide aren't really worth it a lot of the time. I like that GW is being a bit more creative with its special rules as opposed to just handing out re-roll 1s everywhere but the Necron approach seems really convoluted for no real reason.

I know we may see changes to Doctrines and the way other army's special rules operate but the problem with that is GW hasn't revealed it yet, and in the case of non-SM armies those changes won't be coming for a while so taking the "wait and see" approach is going to be very annoying for the foreseeable future.

Krull wrote:
I have a feeling everybody here plays against fluff players, noobs or really weak armies. I´ve had multiple times were my 20 warriors were shot down in 1 turn.
And even if they used 3 times the points then my warriors it's still frustrating if it happens on first turn, you still lost 240 points of shooting, or holding obj.
And yes i use terrain, but they can still move to see you, there are a lot of MW dealing stuff so no save against that and there are like lots of armies who can use a shoot again strata (necrons should get that to)
And T5 is fun, but 1k sons and nids have lots of S5+ weapons.

I'm not a fan of the new RP rules, but i think we should wait for the codex to really know if its a nerf or not.
They should have just made it a fnp again... ist that better?

Killing 20 warriors in one turn was quite easy. Did you even read the new RP ? You get to make RP rolls after the attacking unit makes its attacks. If you have a cryptek nearby killed warriors get up on 4+(unless this changes in the new codex), and reroll 1s. If you have a ghost ark you can roll again for RP (unless this changes in the new codex). You do this every time after an enemy unit makes it attacks. Its now much harder to wipe out a unit of 20 warriors.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
I def think ghost arks are gonna make a comeback.

2 ghost arks with warriors inside, 3 squads of immortals, a CCB, the deceiver, the void dragon, one big squad of warriors for backfield, one squad of shooty destroyers seems like a good 9th list.

Not sure what the points is on that atm, but its got early game mobility, a durable backfield unit and some midfield threat.

Well, I still like the idea of using Doom Scythes and eventually Annihilation Barges.

Warriors with gauss reapers. How do they shoot with Sautekh dynasty rules?
2 shoots within 18" or 2 shoots within 18" and 4 shoots within 7" ?

 Xyxel wrote:
Warriors with gauss reapers. How do they shoot with Sautekh dynasty rules?
- 2 shoots within 18"
or 2 shoots within 18" and 4 shoots within 7" ?

2 shots within 14” for reapers. It’s rapid fire up to 18” instead of half range, not that it extends the base range of the weapon. I think it needs a little FAQ just to clarify but I’d say that’s how it works.