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You are bleeding Bring them down with too many spiders. Can't have more then six, imho.

And you need higher priority stuff for your opponent's AT to shoot at, otherwise that's already 12 points with low effort. But as dangerous melee threats with no Invul and no QS, they are already a juicy target. So it's probably best to stay with three, and max. two other vehicles for giving up a total of 12 points, with 6 of them being hard to achieve.

Regarding the comparison to Praetorians, Spiders have the <DYNASTY> keyword, so there is quite a bit there to improve them further, and T5 or T6 is quite a bit of difference with more S5 and S6 shots getting thrown around.

The only dynasty that really does much for spyders IMO is the custom obsec + 6" move one; that does do a tremendous amount to boost their threat and utility. The others seem pretty minor.

T5 vs T6 is significant vs some stuff, but I think it pretty much balances out with having RPs that have a chance of working and having more bodies to split fire into. Against almost all weapons, equal points of praetorians have very close to equivalent survivability to spyders.

Got to try necrons though only small crusade games(2) and due to nature of beast some rules like protocols didn't get(my crusade force　has skorpek　lord as sole hq so noble for example.).

T5 a2 immortals were　sweet vs orks. Funny enough guns didn't do anything. Rp was overall worse but 23-35 pl games are where old style was at it's best. Praetorians put extra attack to good use. Missed the old timesplinter relic(went for living metal heals 2). Stalker was scary as hell with new stats. The flat 3 ended up killing warboss first game(then died as it struct in death)

Auto wound stratagem was nice security. Otherwise didn't have much of chance to try new stratagems.

So Praetorians are good even without any buffs? Can they be used as a sort of independent ganking unit?

epaemil wrote:
So Praetorians are good even without any buffs? Can they be used as a sort of independent ganking unit?

They had crusade buffs but none mattered here(obsec, Well no objectives to contest. Didn't get charged so free overwatch pointless nor got to use　reroll battleshock). With orks with mostly s4-5 ap0 they pretty much shrugged off all they threw and 40 attacks was nasty enough hitting on 2+ with stratagem made short work and really you average 7 w2 marines anyway.

So far in 9e they have been great. Do wish i had rods though. But i assembled with void blades pre leaks but at least it's not total junk.

Biggest worry i have is heavy bolter spam if that becomes　popular

epaemil wrote:
So Praetorians are good even without any buffs? Can they be used as a sort of independent ganking unit?

Yes - they have fly keyword so they can gank over walls and such. They have really good shooting too now that it's 2 damage. Plus they do get a lot out of some protocols. For killing meq they are probably our best unit. They aren't bad at all vs anything popular ether. The only thing they are missing is "core".

Yeah. Weird turn of events that Necrons now have too many viable melee units to fit into a list.
Everything apart from Ophidian Destroyers varies from great to ok.

On an unrelated note, looking forward to the new FW book. Hopefully the Tomb Stalker/Sentinel and Acantrites become useful too. Such cool models.

I would use the radiation custom trait on a Spyder heavy army. They are then wounding even Custodes and Aggressors on 2's. Lack of any inherent damage mitigating rules does hurt them though so like several things in the dex, they are overpriced.

What's wrong with Ophydian destroyers? Sure they're a bit squishy I think they could be a good harassing unit

Cynista wrote:
I would use the radiation custom trait on a Spyder heavy army. They are then wounding even Custodes and Aggressors on 2's. Lack of any inherent damage mitigating rules does hurt them though so like several things in the dex, they are overpriced.

60 points for 6 wounds 3+ t6 with 5 Str 8 ap-3 attacks at flat 2....its not overpriced. It's just a 3+ save can be completely ignored. T6 is usually a decent spot for toughness though. It's more rock paper scissors than anything. Which...That is 40k!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

epaemil wrote:
What's wrong with Ophydian destroyers? Sure they're a bit squishy I think they could be a good harassing unit

Damage wise I think they are second to none. They will straight roll over things BUT defensively they are utterly pathetic. t4 3 W and a 4+ save? They got looks going for them which is enough for me to get 2 kits on preorder.

They're not just squishy, they're absurdly squishy. That's the problem. Even in Novokh they only have a ~65% chance of making their charge (with the reroll), and if they don't, they just die. So that's a 35% chance to just do nothing. And even if they do make it in, they die the next round.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Cynista wrote:
I would use the radiation custom trait on a Spyder heavy army. They are then wounding even Custodes and Aggressors on 2's. Lack of any inherent damage mitigating rules does hurt them though so like several things in the dex, they are overpriced.

60 points for 6 wounds 3+ t6 with 5 Str 8 ap-3 attacks at flat 2....its not overpriced.

Yes it is and I mentioned why.

Ophydians are more expensive than, and about as durable, as a Flayed One. However, Flayed Ones have really good stratagems (-1 to be hit and fight again) .

Ophydians are also costed the same as Skorpekh Destroyers, which have +1T and +1 Sv over them.

Edit: If the Ophydian -1 to be hit ability was in every phase, not just during combat, I would like them a lot more. At that point they would be a melee Tomb Blade, but as they are now, I would take more Skorpekh every time.

Their damage output makes them worth experimenting with at least!

+1 S too, which actually makes a huge difference as going from S4 to S5 is a big breakpoint for lots of stuff. Ophydians get 6 attacks at S4, 4 of them -3 2D, 2 of them -1 1D. Skorpekhs get 4 S5 -3 2D. It's not actually all that different.

And they also don't have access to the -1 to wound strat that Skorpekhs get; -1T and not getting -1W is a massive, huge difference in durability.

Cynista wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Cynista wrote:
I would use the radiation custom trait on a Spyder heavy army. They are then wounding even Custodes and Aggressors on 2's. Lack of any inherent damage mitigating rules does hurt them though so like several things in the dex, they are overpriced.

60 points for 6 wounds 3+ t6 with 5 Str 8 ap-3 attacks at flat 2....its not overpriced.

Yes it is and I mentioned why.

How overpriced immortals then are? Less t, more points per wound.

Spyders are about right price-wise for that they offer IMO. The trouble is just that what they offer is hard to use well. You have to use them really carefully or they'll just be a waste. Slow, short-ranged models without overwhelming durability tend to be a tough sell in 40k. Especially when they also give up secondary points like candy.

Two units of Flayed Ones in range of the same enemy unit generate -4 to Ld? Does this aura stack?

 Xyxel wrote:
Two units of Flayed Ones in range of the same enemy unit generate -4 to Ld? Does this aura stack?

Unless it specifically says it stacks, the same rule does not.

Don't Ophydians have a -1 to hit in cc, if so that increases their durability.

RAW it does stack, but I think it's 99% likely to be unintended and just a drafting error; they forgot to do the usual "-2LD if within 3" of any FLAYED ONE units" thing.

In the meantime I guess you could have some lols with psychomancers and the deceiver's power combined with flayed ones, though.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CKO wrote:
Don't Ophydians have a -1 to hit in cc, if so that increases their durability.

Yes, but their durability in CC isn't the issue. If the -1 to hit was for shooting too they might be interesting.

Ophydians pretty much wont have to worry about CC durability since theyre either gonna melt whatever they charged or get shot off the board.
That -1 to hit being in both shooting/melee would have been nice, but just melee is kinda meh.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Ophydians pretty much wont have to worry about CC durability since theyre either gonna melt whatever they charged or get shot off the board.
That -1 to hit being in both shooting/melee would have been nice, but just melee is kinda meh.

If they are str 4 I don't think they will melt units as skorpekh destroyers do. Do they have 4 hyperphase thresher attacks and 2 ophydian claws each?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xyxel wrote:
Two units of Flayed Ones in range of the same enemy unit generate -4 to Ld? Does this aura stack?

Unless it specifically says it stacks, the same rule does not.

Quote? There's such rule for aura's specifically. So far haven't seen anything for non-aura and feels odd anyway to have rule separately for aura and non-aura ability.

It is an aura, so if there is something in general 9th rulebook about auras not stacking, it wouldn't stack.

 Xenomancers wrote:

epaemil wrote:
What's wrong with Ophydian destroyers? Sure they're a bit squishy I think they could be a good harassing unit

Damage wise I think they are second to none. They will straight roll over things BUT defensively they are utterly pathetic. t4 3 W and a 4+ save? They got looks going for them which is enough for me to get 2 kits on preorder.

What about if you add a Chronomancer to give them a 5++ and let them reroll Charge rolls?

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

epaemil wrote:
What's wrong with Ophydian destroyers? Sure they're a bit squishy I think they could be a good harassing unit

Damage wise I think they are second to none. They will straight roll over things BUT defensively they are utterly pathetic. t4 3 W and a 4+ save? They got looks going for them which is enough for me to get 2 kits on preorder.

What about if you add a Chronomancer to give them a 5++ and let them reroll Charge rolls?

Then you can't Deep Strike them-that happens in the Command Phase, if I recall correctly, which is BEFORE they'd be on the table.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

epaemil wrote:
What's wrong with Ophydian destroyers? Sure they're a bit squishy I think they could be a good harassing unit

Damage wise I think they are second to none. They will straight roll over things BUT defensively they are utterly pathetic. t4 3 W and a 4+ save? They got looks going for them which is enough for me to get 2 kits on preorder.

What about if you add a Chronomancer to give them a 5++ and let them reroll Charge rolls?

Then you can't Deep Strike them-that happens in the Command Phase, if I recall correctly, which is BEFORE they'd be on the table.

So can you not just start them on the table?

Ophydian's with the -1 toughness dynastic tradition is good if you know how to use their 10-inch movement to protect them using terrain or keeping them in combat. The average player will not be able to get the most out of this unit.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ophydian's with the -1 toughness dynastic tradition is good if you know how to use their 10-inch movement to protect them using terrain or keeping them in combat. The average player will not be able to get the most out of this unit.

 vipoid wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

epaemil wrote:
What's wrong with Ophydian destroyers? Sure they're a bit squishy I think they could be a good harassing unit

Damage wise I think they are second to none. They will straight roll over things BUT defensively they are utterly pathetic. t4 3 W and a 4+ save? They got looks going for them which is enough for me to get 2 kits on preorder.

What about if you add a Chronomancer to give them a 5++ and let them reroll Charge rolls?

Then you can't Deep Strike them-that happens in the Command Phase, if I recall correctly, which is BEFORE they'd be on the table.

So can you not just start them on the table?

Which leads to their fragility problem-T4 4+ is not a good defensive statline, even with three wounds each.

For reference, to kill one ODestroyer, it would take...

Half a Helverin (3.375 S7 AP-1 D3 shots at BS 3+)
7 IG Mortars (24 S4 AP0 D1 shots at BS 4+)
7 Rapid-Firing Intercessors without Doctrines (13.5 S4 AP-1 D1 shots at BS 3+)

 JNAProductions wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

epaemil wrote:
What's wrong with Ophydian destroyers? Sure they're a bit squishy I think they could be a good harassing unit

Damage wise I think they are second to none. They will straight roll over things BUT defensively they are utterly pathetic. t4 3 W and a 4+ save? They got looks going for them which is enough for me to get 2 kits on preorder.

What about if you add a Chronomancer to give them a 5++ and let them reroll Charge rolls?

Then you can't Deep Strike them-that happens in the Command Phase, if I recall correctly, which is BEFORE they'd be on the table.

So can you not just start them on the table?

Which leads to their fragility problem-T4 4+ is not a good defensive statline, even with three wounds each.

For reference, to kill one ODestroyer, it would take...

Half a Helverin (3.375 S7 AP-1 D3 shots at BS 3+)
7 IG Mortars (24 S4 AP0 D1 shots at BS 4+)
7 Rapid-Firing Intercessors without Doctrines (13.5 S4 AP-1 D1 shots at BS 3+)

Well, the durability aspect was precisely why I suggested the Chronomancer.

However, going by your list, it seems there may nevertheless be sufficient weapons capable of threatening them with just AP-1.

Welp, I guess I'll chalk them up as another unit I have no reason to buy.