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Hello, fellow Necrons collectors.
I play and collect Iron Hands mostly, occasionally adding some Custodes or Assassinorum models in the roster.
I collected a Craftworlds army several years ago, but sold them off two years ago. After then, I never bought any Xenos army.
The leak and imminent release of Necrons codex, however, drew my attention as I have had a surfeit of playing Imperium armies only.
Although I have only skimmed through a small portion of the codex leaked online, the durability of both the vehicles and the infantry was impressive.
Most of the weaponry seemed rather short-ranged, but the potential to pour considerable number of shots in form of tesla weaponry was also attractive.
Unexpectedly mobile elements, such as the wraiths and tomb blades surprised me too.
Stratagems seemed diverse and at least more useful than those of Space Marines.
While I am a complete novice on playing Necrons but the codex looked promising.
New codex seems to offer wide range of choices with very few models being overpriced and useless.
I might actually start collecting Necrons army, depending on how much the new start collecting set costs.
There is just one thing I would like to ask.
Doomsday Ark seemed to be the only model with truly long-ranged(i.e. 48" or longer) and formidable anti-tank firepower.
Quantum Shielding and the new stratagem can make it very durable, giving it a chance to survive firefights against enemy anti-tank firepower platforms.
It must remain stationary to unleash its full firepower, but it still looked like a solid choice to me.
How do Necron players think of Doomsday Ark? Is it worth taking in competitive games? Or should I look for other options?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/19 07:20:53
Sagittarii Orientalis wrote: Hello, fellow Necrons collectors.
I play and collect Iron Hands mostly, occasionally adding some Custodes or Assassinorum models in the roster.
I collected a Craftworlds army several years ago, but sold them off two years ago. After then, I never bought any Xenos army.
The leak and imminent release of Necrons codex, however, drew my attention as I have had a surfeit of playing Imperium armies only.
Although I have only skimmed through a small portion of the codex leaked online, the durability of both the vehicles and the infantry was impressive.
Most of the weaponry seemed rather short-ranged, but the potential to pour considerable number of shots in form of tesla weaponry was also attractive.
Unexpectedly mobile elements, such as the wraiths and tomb blades surprised me too.
Stratagems seemed diverse and at least more useful than those of Space Marines.
While I am a complete novice on playing Necrons but the codex looked promising.
New codex seems to offer wide range of choices with very few models being overpriced and useless.
I might actually start collecting Necrons army, depending on how much the new start collecting set costs.
There is just one thing I would like to ask.
Doomsday Ark seemed to be the only model with truly long-ranged(i.e. 48" or longer) and formidable anti-tank firepower.
Quantum Shielding and the new stratagem can make it very durable, giving it a chance to survive firefights against enemy anti-tank firepower platforms.
It must remain stationary to unleash its full firepower, but it still looked like a solid choice to me.
How do Necron players think of Doomsday Ark? Is it worth taking in competitive games? Or should I look for other options?
Currently for the leaked codex it is a choice between the D Ark with it's long range firepower to keep it out of harms way and being fairly durable to anti tank weapons as well as being able to be with the firepower of 10 warriors in a pinch.
The other option are destroyers, who can be combined with the 1cp extermination protocols stratagem and potentially mwbd and the sautehk/mephrit stratagems if you want some more expensive buffs. This is by far the better ofption for damage as it is more spread out meaning invuls aren't as damaging against it and are also an easy target to get some bonuses to hit so aren't completely useless against -2 to hit units. They can also be deep struck if using nephrek, which gives up the damage dealing stratagems but the increased safety is worth IMO.
other options that aren't as good but still usable are the T ark which is just more expensive and has less dakka then the D Ark, and the pylon, which can only target one unit a turn and is very vulnerable to cold dice and your opponent spending cp to re roll and invul. IMO the destroyers are the way to go as they are just more aggressive and fun to play.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/19 08:18:22
^
It remains to be seen whether H.Destroyers end up being better than a D.Ark.
In general it depends on what you're setting them against.
But so far the consensus seems to be that regular Destroyers deep struck in via Nephrekh's Translocation Crypt strategem [TC] is going to be the go-to for most lists you're going to see.
(and seeing as how Wraiths and Scarabs would really like their Dynastic code so they can maximum advance, bringing along an Outrider of Destroyers and Canopteks is also probably going to be pretty common practice... though I'm not sure what the optimal HQ for that detachment would be).
Whats the damage difference between destroyers and a D-Ark against T7/T8 Targets?
If the beta points are correct you get (nearly) 4 Destroyers for one D-Arks.
So
D6 Shots S10 -5 D6 vs
12 Shots S5 -3 D3 (with possibly reroll all)
The really big advantage is really that destroyers are Alpha strike safe becau you can deep strike them, that puts em in the same spot as obliterators, which are awesome
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/19 09:23:57
stormcraft wrote: Whats the damage difference between destroyers and a D-Ark against T7/T8 Targets?
If the beta points are correct you get (nearly) 4 Destroyers for one D-Arks.
So
D6 Shots S10 -5 D6 vs
12 Shots S5 -3 D3 (with possibly reroll all)
The really big advantage is really that destroyers are Alpha strike safe becau you can deep strike them, that puts em in the same spot as obliterators, which are awesome
Stratagem that gives full reroll gives destroyers much more value. Also destroyers benefit from MWBD and reroll 1s on damage from lord (heroes you gonna take anyway mostly). I think that most powerfull anti-tank setup right now is:
3 Ghost arks goes as 2nd option. They cover more space to prevent opponent DS, more durable and can give high volume of attacks when opponent comes at your face, but dont benefit from DS, struggle against minuses to hit (which everyone pack nowadays; Destroyers can be improved by MWBD) and remains fully stationary to be effective, which puts them at 2nd place for me.
Sagittarii Orientalis wrote: Hello, fellow Necrons collectors.
I play and collect Iron Hands mostly, occasionally adding some Custodes or Assassinorum models in the roster.
I collected a Craftworlds army several years ago, but sold them off two years ago. After then, I never bought any Xenos army.
The leak and imminent release of Necrons codex, however, drew my attention as I have had a surfeit of playing Imperium armies only.
Although I have only skimmed through a small portion of the codex leaked online, the durability of both the vehicles and the infantry was impressive.
Most of the weaponry seemed rather short-ranged, but the potential to pour considerable number of shots in form of tesla weaponry was also attractive.
Unexpectedly mobile elements, such as the wraiths and tomb blades surprised me too.
Stratagems seemed diverse and at least more useful than those of Space Marines.
While I am a complete novice on playing Necrons but the codex looked promising.
New codex seems to offer wide range of choices with very few models being overpriced and useless.
I might actually start collecting Necrons army, depending on how much the new start collecting set costs.
There is just one thing I would like to ask.
Doomsday Ark seemed to be the only model with truly long-ranged(i.e. 48" or longer) and formidable anti-tank firepower.
Quantum Shielding and the new stratagem can make it very durable, giving it a chance to survive firefights against enemy anti-tank firepower platforms.
It must remain stationary to unleash its full firepower, but it still looked like a solid choice to me.
How do Necron players think of Doomsday Ark? Is it worth taking in competitive games? Or should I look for other options?
Currently for the leaked codex it is a choice between the D Ark with it's long range firepower to keep it out of harms way and being fairly durable to anti tank weapons as well as being able to be with the firepower of 10 warriors in a pinch.
The other option are destroyers, who can be combined with the 1cp extermination protocols stratagem and potentially mwbd and the sautehk/mephrit stratagems if you want some more expensive buffs. This is by far the better ofption for damage as it is more spread out meaning invuls aren't as damaging against it and are also an easy target to get some bonuses to hit so aren't completely useless against -2 to hit units. They can also be deep struck if using nephrek, which gives up the damage dealing stratagems but the increased safety is worth IMO.
other options that aren't as good but still usable are the T ark which is just more expensive and has less dakka then the D Ark, and the pylon, which can only target one unit a turn and is very vulnerable to cold dice and your opponent spending cp to re roll and invul. IMO the destroyers are the way to go as they are just more aggressive and fun to play.
The DDA the arguably the best Anti-tank we have, only falling short to Extermination Protocol Destroyers in smaller games.
(Correct me if I am wrong, as I am inexperienced with Mathhammer)
Against a Leman Russ (T8/3+)
4 Nephrekh Destroyers with Extermination Protocols = 9.877 points of damage
1 Nihilakh DDA = 6.352 points of damage
Against a Land Raider (T8/2+)
4 Nephrekh Destroyers with Extermination Protocols = 7.901 wounds
1 Nihilakh DDA = 6.352 wounds
Against a Leman Russ (T8/3+)
4 Nephrekh Destroyers without Extermination Protocols = 5.185 points of damage
1 Nihilakh DDA = 6.352 points of damage
Against a Land Raider (T8/2+)
4 Nephrekh Destroyers without Extermination Protocols = 4.148 wounds
1 Nihilakh DDA = 6.352 wounds
So if you are willing to burn a CP each time you shoot with them, Destroyers can out damage a DDA. However, if you are going against tanks with 2+ saves, you need to consider if a CP is worth the extra 1.549 damage. You also need to worry about the tactical implications that the Destroyers will be much more closer and more vulnerable than a DDA would be. However, the advantages towards the DDA greatly increase in larger games. To double the power of a DDA, you take 2 DDA, but if you wanted to match those points in Destroyers, you would need to take two Units as the maximum Unit size for Destroyers is 6. This would require you to spend 2 CP each time you shot with your Destroyers instead of 1. We also have to remember the CP we are spending to safely DS the Destroyers so they can reliably have a turn of shooting, making it 2 CP (+1 CP every time they shoot afterwards) in smaller games, and 4 CP (+2 CP every time they shoot afterwards) in larger games.
Imo, DDA are the best Necron Unit for Anti-tank. They can shoot safely from afar, only average a little less damage compared to Destroyers, and you don't need to spend valuable CP. I would personally use the Destroyers to go after lighter T6 vehicles and pricey Elite Infantry, and if the DDA whiffs a shot at a high priority tank that you need dead or crippled that turn, you have the option of using the Destroyers to pick up the slack.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/19 09:59:32
The Problem with Nihilak DDAs is that Nihilak is a really bad trait outside DDAs, so to come up with an nihilak HQ, and other stuff to fill the detachment, that doesnt feel like a total tax is hard. (Repair Cryptek with the cloak is my best guess).
2CP for 2 Destroyer Units is a no go btw, cant use the same stratagem multiple time per phase.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/19 09:57:17
stormcraft wrote: The Problem with Nihilak DDAs is that Nihilak is a really bad trait outside DDAs, so to come up with an nihilak HQ, and other stuff to fill the detachment, that doesnt feel like a total tax is hard. (Repair Cryptek with the cloak is my best guess).
2CP for 2 Destroyer Units is a no go btw, cant use the same stratagem multiple time per phase.
It's not optimal but its doable, especially in larger games where you would take 2 DDA.
Ahhh, didn't know that. Haven't played much of 8th tbh (or 7th for that matter, 8th got me back in), as I have been waiting for Necrons to get their codex lol. However that just proves my point that in larger games the DDA wins out when it comes to Anti-tank.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/19 10:16:54
Nagerash wrote: if you can't use the same stratagem multiple times, does that also means you can only hide 1 Destroyer unit with the Nephrek TC?
I think because you're using that strategem before the actual game begins it means it doesn't happen in a phase so you can do it as much as you like so long as 50% of your army is deployed as normal.
though I'm not sure what the optimal HQ for that detachment would be).
stormcraft wrote: so to come up with an nihilak HQ, and other stuff to fill the detachment, that doesnt feel like a total tax is hard.
There are Anrakyr and Szeras for just such detachments.
P.S. But I personally think that re-rolls to hit in close combat is better dynasty code for both wraiths and scarabs, while extra movement is best for immortals and warriors, competing with Mephrite's bonus to AP.
My roster ideas are rotating around Novokh outrider detachment for canopteks and Mephrite battalion with 2*10 Immortals and 1*20 warriors, but can't decide on options for support units and HQ.
One of my playmates suggests Nightbringer, while I have a guttural feeling that large number of deathmarks (20 or 30) should be taken to compete with shining spears and alpha strike armies, but this requires extra field tests to be proven. If deathmarks somehow get in Lords' aura they become very nasty.
Will be waiting untill March FAQ from GW, cause the metagame will shift most likely due to CE nerf.
Mephrit Deathmarks could possibly work for counter-deepstrike Alpha Strike armies. Not just as counter deployment shenanigans but with the AP-1 providing a harder punch for their shots.
stormcraft wrote: The Problem with Nihilak DDAs is that Nihilak is a really bad trait outside DDAs, so to come up with an nihilak HQ, and other stuff to fill the detachment, that doesnt feel like a total tax is hard. (Repair Cryptek with the cloak is my best guess).
2CP for 2 Destroyer Units is a no go btw, cant use the same stratagem multiple time per phase.
I think you can just take a Nihilak Spearhead with a cheap Crytepk (for the repair job) or lord then take 3 DDA, or 2DDA and a Spider (cheapest Heavy Support for Necron?) if you lack points. Looks not bad for me
stormcraft wrote: The Problem with Nihilak DDAs is that Nihilak is a really bad trait outside DDAs, so to come up with an nihilak HQ, and other stuff to fill the detachment, that doesnt feel like a total tax is hard. (Repair Cryptek with the cloak is my best guess).
2CP for 2 Destroyer Units is a no go btw, cant use the same stratagem multiple time per phase.
I think you can just take a Nihilak Spearhead with a cheap Crytepk (for the repair job) or lord then take 3 DDA, or 2DDA and a Spider (cheapest Heavy Support for Necron?) if you lack points. Looks not bad for me
I thought the Lord only affected Infantry? In which case you might as well stick with minor repairs.
In which case, 3 Arms, 3 Spiders, and then a Repairtek seems to be a solid backfield setup, though obviously pricey. Not even sure the Spyders are worth it as I think repairs are terrible this edition and definitely something that could be fixed. Heh.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I looked at the Spyder and to be honest i think its pretty crappy.
You get a boost from 1 Wound to D3 wound Living metal repair, so your paying 65 Points for average 1 Wound repair per turn and an otherwise really useless modell in your backfield.
A lone Heavy Destroyer for 57 Points to fill the last slot seem the better option here, at least he can make dmg.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/19 13:57:31
Aye: it feels like some people may not always account for the fact that games have a very short, finite duration. Usually around 5 turns at most. D3 * 5 is like 10 wounds healed on average. For the same cost of a Spyder, you could pick up a Heavy Destroyer and get 30% of the wounds and 29% more firepower.
stormcraft wrote: The Problem with Nihilak DDAs is that Nihilak is a really bad trait outside DDAs, so to come up with an nihilak HQ, and other stuff to fill the detachment, that doesnt feel like a total tax is hard. (Repair Cryptek with the cloak is my best guess).
2CP for 2 Destroyer Units is a no go btw, cant use the same stratagem multiple time per phase.
I think you can just take a Nihilak Spearhead with a cheap Crytepk (for the repair job) or lord then take 3 DDA, or 2DDA and a Spider (cheapest Heavy Support for Necron?) if you lack points. Looks not bad for me
I thought the Lord only affected Infantry? In which case you might as well stick with minor repairs.
In which case, 3 Arms, 3 Spiders, and then a Repairtek seems to be a solid backfield setup, though obviously pricey. Not even sure the Spyders are worth it as I think repairs are terrible this edition and definitely something that could be fixed. Heh.
Wow, you think repairs are bad this edition? Granted I play a lot of admech armies but I think repairing is under used by a lot of players. I play Chaos, and regen plus a warpsmith has won me games keeping a key unit alive. It's an average of 3 wounds a round. It means your arch is only degrading turn one if they deal it 10 wounds if you roll decent. That forces them to finish an arch before hitting the next (which is a common strategy with so many factions able to use -1 or more to hit). Since he is a back line unit they are going to be using high damage AT 9 times in 10 meaning his quantum shielding is working best as well. I imagine as soon as your opponent is aware of the spyder and or cryptek repair abilities they totally ignore the DDA.
I mean, I am thinking of taking a spyder anyway for the deny ability, he may as well pay for himself by effectively adding wounds to a DDA. Thats what you have to consider, if he heals an average of 2 wounds per turn for 3 turns, he is adding value of whatever ratio of wounds to cost he is repairing. He also adds a scarab base turn 1. I actually think spyders are fine. They also can advance and charge and are durable meaning in a pinch they can surprise someone when he jumps from the back line lol. Trap door spyder!
The Spyder is also one of the lists only ways to deny psychic powers, which is not useless at all. The repair is cool, but if I'm taking a Spyder it's probably first off because of the deny, with the repair as a nifty secondary benefit.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
Problem is that to repair the spyder has to be by your DDA in your backfield to repair, and the enemy Spykers is in theirs.
Maybe you can deny a Deep Striking Deamon Prince once in a while, but the vast majority will be out of deny range most times.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/19 14:51:51
Not sure what that will look like when I get the points figured up, but overall thoughts on the strategy/units? Too much anti-tank? Are larger squads backed up by Arks better than units in the Arks?
Trying to get a grasp on 'Crons as my next potential army, so sorry if I am entirely noobish. Also, no 'Crons in my local meta either (another reason to pursue them, actually), so I have no hands-on experience either!
stormcraft wrote: Problem is that to repair the spyder has to be by your DDA in your backfield to repair, and the enemy Spykers is in theirs.
Maybe you can deny a Deep Striking Deamon Prince once in a while, but the vast majority will be out of deny range most times.
Not entirely fair, you repair at the end of the phase, meaning with an advance roll plus the repair range, I can be at the front of the deployment zone making scarabs and denying powers, then easily hop back to slap a wrench on the arch. Anything out of range will probably be a blessing power happening far way anyway. You want denial to stop things like warp time or nasty mortal wound powers like psychic screams and smites from flyrants. He has plenty of range for those.
stormcraft wrote: Problem is that to repair the spyder has to be by your DDA in your backfield to repair, and the enemy Spykers is in theirs.
Maybe you can deny a Deep Striking Deamon Prince once in a while, but the vast majority will be out of deny range most times.
Not entirely fair, you repair at the end of the phase, meaning with an advance roll plus the repair range, I can be at the front of the deployment zone making scarabs and denying powers, then easily hop back to slap a wrench on the arch. Anything out of range will probably be a blessing power happening far way anyway. You want denial to stop things like warp time or nasty mortal wound powers like psychic screams and smites from flyrants. He has plenty of range for those.
That is actually a fair point, and a good tactic for your first round movement. Beginning Turn 2 you can either stay with the DDA to repair or return to the fron line for denying.
Anyway, im still doubtfull its worth the points, but i could see the joy in repairing a nealy dead DDA 2w3 every turn with a spyder and a cryptek. Could be really frustrating for your enemy......or absolutely useless if the DDA blows up Turn one
Wow, you think repairs are bad this edition? Granted I play a lot of admech armies but I think repairing is under used by a lot of players. I play Chaos, and regen plus a warpsmith has won me games keeping a key unit alive. It's an average of 3 wounds a round. It means your arch is only degrading turn one if they deal it 10 wounds if you roll decent. That forces them to finish an arch before hitting the next (which is a common strategy with so many factions able to use -1 or more to hit). Since he is a back line unit they are going to be using high damage AT 9 times in 10 meaning his quantum shielding is working best as well. I imagine as soon as your opponent is aware of the spyder and or cryptek repair abilities they totally ignore the DDA.
I mean, I am thinking of taking a spyder anyway for the deny ability, he may as well pay for himself by effectively adding wounds to a DDA. Thats what you have to consider, if he heals an average of 2 wounds per turn for 3 turns, he is adding value of whatever ratio of wounds to cost he is repairing. He also adds a scarab base turn 1. I actually think spyders are fine. They also can advance and charge and are durable meaning in a pinch they can surprise someone when he jumps from the back line lol. Trap door spyder!
It's something to consider.
In general, degrading one BS3+ vehicle and then moving on to the next doesn't make sense, even when you can rely on a -1 hit mod. A BS3+ vehicle will degrade to 4+ at half wounds. With a -1 hit mod it's moving from a 4+ to a 5+, so it's losing only 33% of its output after losing half its wounds. You're better off killing it entirely and getting rid of the remaining 67% of its output than moving on to another vehicle and reducing it to half wounds as well. Even for BS4+ vehicles (or with a -2 hit mod on everything worth shooting, which is extremely rare) you want to get them down to their third profile before moving on, and the third profile does not generally last very long. I think that to the extent your opponents are inclined to degrade and move on, and your bringing repair stuff inclines them towards killing vehicles entirely, you're paying points to get your opponents to do what they should have been doing all along.
If your opponents simply can't consistently kill a DDA in a turn, then, sure, go for it. But I feel like you're in pretty good shape already if your opponent wants to but can't kill a 200 point model in a turn.
Spyders in particular have the problem that they're actually more vulnerable to lots of things than are the vehicles that you're bringing them to repair. They're not Techmarines that can hide using the character rule. A lascannon gets about twice as much out of shooting a full-health Spyder as a DDA. If your opponent just shoots the Spyder first, you'd have been better off bringing more DDAs instead (obviously you can't buy only half a DDA but you get the idea).
~4100
~1660
