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2018/03/30 19:36:17
Subject: Re:Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - 3/27 first draft of unit grading in OP
MarkM wrote: Why is everyone doing the easy stuff - Unit grading, math hammer on best weapons etc. and ignoring the difficult stuff?
This Codex has one huge glaring weakness - T1 board control.
We have no way to contest the open space between the armies; which means we have no easy way to survive a good Alpha.
Any army with scout or scout equivalents will lock up midfield, denying us good spots for our Alpha, and keeping their options wide open.
Do we have a way to stop an army from dropping every DS unit they have 21" from our baseline?
I played a horde CSM/Daemon list today and 30 Pinks, 40 Cultisits and 9 Obilterators will tear any army a new one.
Unless we can mitigate this sort of problem we are dead in the water.
Now I have only read the leaked codex - but I cannot see anyway to stop the above.
Please prove me wrong - I really want to start a new Necron army - but as it stands just don't see even a semi-competitive list.
Agreed.
Our vehicles are resilient, depending on what gets dropped in. But that's really about it. Spamming warriors, maybe, for screening and blocking deep strike locations? The veil relic could also be a good counter, at least against hordes. Dropping in Warriors in rapid fire range should mostly wipe at least one horde.
It's a tough question for sure, and I don't think we have good enough answers to it.
2018/03/30 20:12:42
Subject: Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - 3/27 first draft of unit grading in OP
MarkM wrote: Why is everyone doing the easy stuff - Unit grading, math hammer on best weapons etc. and ignoring the difficult stuff?
This Codex has one huge glaring weakness - T1 board control.
We have no way to contest the open space between the armies; which means we have no easy way to survive a good Alpha.
Any army with scout or scout equivalents will lock up midfield, denying us good spots for our Alpha, and keeping their options wide open.
Do we have a way to stop an army from dropping every DS unit they have 21" from our baseline?
I played a horde CSM/Daemon list today and 30 Pinks, 40 Cultisits and 9 Obilterators will tear any army a new one.
Unless we can mitigate this sort of problem we are dead in the water.
Now I have only read the leaked codex - but I cannot see anyway to stop the above.
Please prove me wrong - I really want to start a new Necron army - but as it stands just don't see even a semi-competitive list.
Because everyones Meta is different and don't include filth like that. Not everyone is going to be up against lists like the one you stated. So, us unit grading, math hammering and choosing best weapons is for us to to understand what the best builds are before we go into the "harder" questions.
The only way to counter something like this and make sure you have some board control is to use the Deceivers Grand Illusion to re-deploy 1-4 units up the board before the enemy can get into position. Also, getting 1st turn can help quite a lot but infiltrating units and other units that have rules like it will hamper us quite badly.
MarkM wrote: Why is everyone doing the easy stuff - Unit grading, math hammer on best weapons etc. and ignoring the difficult stuff?
This Codex has one huge glaring weakness - T1 board control.
We have no way to contest the open space between the armies; which means we have no easy way to survive a good Alpha.
Any army with scout or scout equivalents will lock up midfield, denying us good spots for our Alpha, and keeping their options wide open.
Do we have a way to stop an army from dropping every DS unit they have 21" from our baseline?
I played a horde CSM/Daemon list today and 30 Pinks, 40 Cultisits and 9 Obilterators will tear any army a new one.
Unless we can mitigate this sort of problem we are dead in the water.
Now I have only read the leaked codex - but I cannot see anyway to stop the above.
Please prove me wrong - I really want to start a new Necron army - but as it stands just don't see even a semi-competitive list.
Because everyones Meta is different and don't include filth like that. Not everyone is going to be up against lists like the one you stated. So, us unit grading, math hammering and choosing best weapons is for us to to understand what the best builds are before we go into the "harder" questions.
The only way to counter something like this and make sure you have some board control is to use the Deceivers Grand Illusion to re-deploy 1-4 units up the board before the enemy can get into position. Also, getting 1st turn can help quite a lot but infiltrating units and other units that have rules like it will hamper us quite badly.
Not disagreeing with you but I don't think the deceiver will help here. Deceiver happens before the first turn is taken but after figuring out who is going first. This allows a lot of strategic shenanigans but units like scouts will already be placed and granting a large amount of board control at that point. Deceiver won't be able to fix that.
Myself how I am considering countering this is by taking scarabs and putting them as far forward as I can during deployment. A wall of scarabs are quite effective. Then I will take my warriors and put them 9" behind the scarabs, 2 large blobs of 20, with a cryptek with the cloak. Finally use the deceiver. If I roll well for deceiver it will allow me to reposition the force however I want from one flank to the other potentially putting some of my enemy's force completly out of position. Even on a poor roll I can move one squad of warriors and the 2nd will be moved with the cryptek to get into position.
If we get first turn advance the scarabs up and past the enemy "no man land" so that they are doing the same thing, stopping the enemy from having a good place to drop. Use the warriors to deal with enemy chaff that is now behind the scouts. Use big stuff to then go to town on whatever flank needs to be hit hardest. If we go second the scarabs will still move up and engage whatever dropped in and the warriors have more targets to work with.
Not the best solution but from theory hammer it's the best I can come up with. Feel free to replace warriors with immortals if you want as well, I just plan on running a ghost ark for double rp rolls. If my opponent focus fires and kills a single squad of warriors first turn then nothing shot at my DDA'S or vault or wraiths or whatever. Again it's theory hammer but what else can we do until the models hit the table?
2018/03/30 20:32:24
Subject: Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - 3/27 first draft of unit grading in OP
Myself how I am considering countering this is by taking scarabs and putting them as far forward as I can during deployment. A wall of scarabs are quite effective. Then I will take my warriors and put them 9" behind the scarabs, 2 large blobs of 20, with a cryptek with the cloak. Finally use the deceiver. If I roll well for deceiver it will allow me to reposition the force however I want from one flank to the other potentially putting some of my enemy's force completly out of position. Even on a poor roll I can move one squad of warriors and the 2nd will be moved with the cryptek to get into position.
Any reason why the warriors are behind 9"? My understanding was that the sweet spot would typically be 3"
2018/03/30 21:47:03
Subject: Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - 3/27 first draft of unit grading in OP
Myself how I am considering countering this is by taking scarabs and putting them as far forward as I can during deployment. A wall of scarabs are quite effective. Then I will take my warriors and put them 9" behind the scarabs, 2 large blobs of 20, with a cryptek with the cloak. Finally use the deceiver. If I roll well for deceiver it will allow me to reposition the force however I want from one flank to the other potentially putting some of my enemy's force completly out of position. Even on a poor roll I can move one squad of warriors and the 2nd will be moved with the cryptek to get into position.
Any reason why the warriors are behind 9"? My understanding was that the sweet spot would typically be 3"
To give as much room as possible to place your stuff but keep the opponent out.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/03/30 22:02:59
Subject: Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - 3/27 first draft of unit grading in OP
MarkM wrote: Why is everyone doing the easy stuff - Unit grading, math hammer on best weapons etc. and ignoring the difficult stuff?
You start with the easy stuff, and since we've had "access" to our codex for just about two weeks, that's most of what we've had time for. The difficult stuff as you say will take games to work out.
MarkM wrote: This Codex has one huge glaring weakness - T1 board control. We have no way to contest the open space between the armies; which means we have no easy way to survive a good Alpha. Any army with scout or scout equivalents will lock up midfield, denying us good spots for our Alpha, and keeping their options wide open. Do we have a way to stop an army from dropping every DS unit they have 21" from our baseline?
Condensed for ease of response, The deceiver's grand illusion allows us to set up outside of our deployment zone, which give us a manner in which to hold no man's land from deep strikers. Another option is that we are the only army with counter deep strikers, On paper at least it seems like a good way to create a zone of control in the middle, wait until he drops his first unit, and then drop one or two of our own to disrupt further placement. When mixed with some denied flank and proper scarab placement we could lock certain types of opponents out of no man's land. Our screens are also fast enough to tarpit anyone who lands too closely.
I suppose the answer is a mix of things, we'll have to experiment to find out.
Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.
2018/03/30 22:47:14
Subject: Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - 3/27 first draft of unit grading in OP
The Deceiver 'may' be of use if we get 1st turn. But even then many armies have the middle covered with 2-4 units of scout-like troops. So we have nowhere to go that's not within 12" of the enemy except in our own deployment zone.
Same for Deathmarks - counter DS yes - but more than 9" away. Again 3 enemy units in no-mans land means we can only drop in our own deployment area.
This means that unlike most other armies we cannot defend in depth as we only get 12" (a bit more in some scenarios) to deploy into and cannot make space for our own DS units.
If the Monolith and Invasion beams are meant to offset this, they do a pretty poor job of it.
2018/03/30 22:48:53
Subject: Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - 3/27 first draft of unit grading in OP
How do people feel about the Psyker spam matchup? I can't see we'll ever hold a candle in any game against Thousand Sons just because we're missing out on a game phase.
Huh, weird. I could load the other one just fine, but I can't figure out how to make this one work...
it's probably a versioning thing, go to manage data, click download new data, and then make sure you check the box for delete the existing data. That will get you back to Necron v20, after that just extract the zip file somewhere and open the file for necrons.cat. At least that's what I had to do
Good to see they've got a branch up, for those that use Battlescribe on phones look at a file manager and move that Necron file into the Battlescribe data folder. It's a shame you can't link directly to github and pull the beta data though.
2018/03/30 22:54:44
Subject: Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - 3/27 first draft of unit grading in OP
MarkM wrote: The Deceiver 'may' be of use if we get 1st turn. But even then many armies have the middle covered with 2-4 units of scout-like troops. So we have nowhere to go that's not within 12" of the enemy except in our own deployment zone.
Same for Deathmarks - counter DS yes - but more than 9" away. Again 3 enemy units in no-mans land means we can only drop in our own deployment area.
This means that unlike most other armies we cannot defend in depth as we only get 12" (a bit more in some scenarios) to deploy into and cannot make space for our own DS units.
If the Monolith and Invasion beams are meant to offset this, they do a pretty poor job of it.
Deathmarks aren't terrible though when they're Mephrit. Don't they kill 4 Scions in Rapid Fire range in a minimum squad?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/03/30 23:02:12
Subject: Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - 3/27 first draft of unit grading in OP
Darsath wrote: Deathmarks aren't exactly a good choice to counter any deepstrikers. They lack any real amount of damage to be effective for this scenario.
But they can counter certain strats that are pretty popular at the moment.
Oblits and JP sorc: ds in when sorc comes down and shoot him to death no prescience or miasma/death hex.
Same kinda thing for ds poxbringers etc who buff there troops.
You could use them on your turn to clear scouts for your own deepstrike shenanigins. Granted this isnt amazing but its still useful.
Onto sumthing abit different.
Imotekh, immortals with tesla, stalker, warrior blob/destroyers/hdestroyers and the 1cp +1mwbd and 2cp sautehk shooting strat +1tohit.
With imo you can buff 3 squads with mwbd, strat allows +1tohit and tesla immortals are now hitting on 4+ for xtra hits! stalker for reroll 1's a lord for reroll 1's wounding.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/31 02:11:28
2018/03/31 03:09:39
Subject: Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - 3/27 first draft of unit grading in OP
In perpetration for the new codex I started making my 1st Codex list and something came across my mind. 1 unit of mixed tomb blades e.g. some having Shields vanes and others having Shadowlooms. That is in a Nihilakh detachment you can pop the "RALE" stratagem when they are near an Objective to give them 2+ save and/or 4++ invul depending on how you loaded them out. Those stats plus -1 to hit when shot at makes these guys really good at eating shoots. Also, if the objective is on terrain and if your TBs are hidden they can have ++2. 1 for cover and 1 for "RALE" stratagem.
MarkM wrote: The Deceiver 'may' be of use if we get 1st turn. But even then many armies have the middle covered with 2-4 units of scout-like troops. So we have nowhere to go that's not within 12" of the enemy except in our own deployment zone.
Same for Deathmarks - counter DS yes - but more than 9" away. Again 3 enemy units in no-mans land means we can only drop in our own deployment area.
This means that unlike most other armies we cannot defend in depth as we only get 12" (a bit more in some scenarios) to deploy into and cannot make space for our own DS units.
Why do you feel like this is even a problem? What missions are you playing that this alone means you'll lose?
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
2018/03/31 06:05:08
Subject: Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - 3/27 first draft of unit grading in OP
Odrankt wrote: In perpetration for the new codex I started making my 1st Codex list and something came across my mind. 1 unit of mixed tomb blades e.g. some having Shields vanes and others having Shadowlooms. That is in a Nihilakh detachment you can pop the "RALE" stratagem when they are near an Objective to give them 2+ save and/or 4++ invul depending on how you loaded them out. Those stats plus -1 to hit when shot at makes these guys really good at eating shoots. Also, if the objective is on terrain and if your TBs are hidden they can have ++2. 1 for cover and 1 for "RALE" stratagem.
You want play necrons like imperial soup but they cant. In this tactic we always be wors because we dont have GEQ.
Personaly i always have different tactic. I deploy my force deep in corner. Screan by hide scarabs, put second line infrantry in cover and d-ark back. And i wait. Most player atack my position in firs turn - witch meen they only put on me DS and long range unit. They split army, have less fire power so cant kill my unit in one turn. If shoot infrantry done good job, if cc my character counter. After 2-3 turn i have still almost all army thanks to rp and then i move ahead. Turn 5 its good time to use veil and surround enemy.
Most games i have more army live at the end but not always win in VP. Still its better then try alfa strike with army witout good fire power and with expensive way to do it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/31 06:18:22
2018/03/31 06:28:27
Subject: Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - 3/27 first draft of unit grading in OP
Wait, what is the closest something can deep strike next to our stuff?
(Is there something that can drop closer than 9"?)
If not, wouldn't we be able to leave 17-18" between our models and still be safe from something being able to pop in between them? I'd imagine that'd be a pretty large amount of board space we could cover (2" between each model, 18" between each unit)
2018/03/31 06:37:59
Subject: Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - 3/27 first draft of unit grading in OP
Darsath wrote: Deathmarks aren't exactly a good choice to counter any deepstrikers. They lack any real amount of damage to be effective for this scenario.
MarkM wrote: Slayer, we won't have much left to worry about later turn DS'ing if we can't sort out a defence to Alpha.
Deathmark's help not one jot.
They do. I shut down a Tau Commander Droplist with 3 squads of 5.
First commander droped down, as close as possible, to fusion/melta my vehicles, took 2 squads and placed them sidelong behind him (direction of opponents deployment) and generated a bubble of safezone arround him. Other drops could not come down near him and he got shot bad, because he calculated with more drones to shield him. His other drops could not be placed in valuable spots, so he decided to hold them. Next turn I swarmed the most spots of the board with scarabs.
Alternatively he could have put them in some unvaluable corners, but got nothing of note to shoot at close by.
COLD CASH wrote: But they can counter certain strats that are pretty popular at the moment.
Oblits and JP sorc: ds in when sorc comes down and shoot him to death no prescience or miasma/death hex.
Same kinda thing for ds poxbringers etc who buff there troops.
By propper placement you can isolate parts of the enemys alpha, and in this edition this can be of high value. On paper they might not be the uber-omg-kill-everything-at-zero-points-with-no-effort unit, but think outside the box. They defenitely have their uses.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skoffs wrote: Wait, what is the closest something can deep strike next to our stuff?
(Is there something that can drop closer than 9"?)
If not, wouldn't we be able to leave 17-18" between our models and still be safe from something being able to pop in between them? I'd imagine that'd be a pretty large amount of board space we could cover (2" between each model, 18" between each unit)
Morgon (Tyranids) can come close, but out of 1", and cant charge. Swarmlord can slingshot nearly anything in your fave, the bigger the gaps in your screens, the worse, genestealer cult can come up really close if good roled cult ambush, Nemesor/Zhandrek slingshot can come really close too.
That the ones i know right now out of my head. There might be more.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/31 06:44:46
24.000 Tyranids painted, still rising in numbers
4.000 Genestealer Cult
7.000
2018/03/31 07:29:05
Subject: Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - 3/27 first draft of unit grading in OP
Darsath wrote: Deathmarks aren't exactly a good choice to counter any deepstrikers. They lack any real amount of damage to be effective for this scenario.
MarkM wrote: Slayer, we won't have much left to worry about later turn DS'ing if we can't sort out a defence to Alpha.
Deathmark's help not one jot.
They do. I shut down a Tau Commander Droplist with 3 squads of 5.
First commander droped down, as close as possible, to fusion/melta my vehicles, took 2 squads and placed them sidelong behind him (direction of opponents deployment) and generated a bubble of safezone arround him. Other drops could not come down near him and he got shot bad, because he calculated with more drones to shield him. His other drops could not be placed in valuable spots, so he decided to hold them. Next turn I swarmed the most spots of the board with scarabs.
Alternatively he could have put them in some unvaluable corners, but got nothing of note to shoot at close by.
COLD CASH wrote: But they can counter certain strats that are pretty popular at the moment.
Oblits and JP sorc: ds in when sorc comes down and shoot him to death no prescience or miasma/death hex.
Same kinda thing for ds poxbringers etc who buff there troops.
By propper placement you can isolate parts of the enemys alpha, and in this edition this can be of high value. On paper they might not be the uber-omg-kill-everything-at-zero-points-with-no-effort unit, but think outside the box. They defenitely have their uses.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skoffs wrote: Wait, what is the closest something can deep strike next to our stuff?
(Is there something that can drop closer than 9"?)
If not, wouldn't we be able to leave 17-18" between our models and still be safe from something being able to pop in between them? I'd imagine that'd be a pretty large amount of board space we could cover (2" between each model, 18" between each unit)
Morgon (Tyranids) can come close, but out of 1", and cant charge. Swarmlord can slingshot nearly anything in your fave, the bigger the gaps in your screens, the worse, genestealer cult can come up really close if good roled cult ambush, Nemesor/Zhandrek slingshot can come really close too.
That the ones i know right now out of my head. There might be more.
Thanks for pointing this out, I think a lot of people miss the point of deathmarks. My friend loves playing custodes with all the teleportation chamber stuff, he'll hold at least 2 groups in reserve and try to remove my destroyers and doomsday arc as with there D3 damage there the only credible threats. He deepstrike in first squad and then you send in the deathmarks, with proper placement you can really blunt the alpha strike.
Will the hurt custodes no, but I'd rather lose 100pts of deathmarks then my destroyers or other high value necrons
2018/03/31 07:31:54
Subject: Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - 3/27 first draft of unit grading in OP
How is everyone thinking you could block deepstrikers with deathmarks? If something drops 9 inches away you can't get in between that and the target because you have to keep 9 away with your desthmarks too.
There will be a lot of situations where you cant use deathmark intercept at all because of the stupid 9 to 12 inch deepstrike restriction.
So you spend 190 points to averagly strap a couple of wounds of something. Ask yourself if 15 deathcompany, 30 bloodletters oder a full squad of shining spears really care. Imho investing the 190 points in scarabs for a proper screen is the better investment
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/31 08:46:47
2018/03/31 09:28:55
Subject: Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - 3/27 first draft of unit grading in OP
stormcraft wrote: How is everyone thinking you could block deepstrikers with deathmarks? If something drops 9 inches away you can't get in between that and the target because you have to keep 9 away with your desthmarks too.
There will be a lot of situations where you cant use deathmark intercept at all because of the stupid 9 to 12 inch deepstrike restriction.
So you spend 190 points to averagly strap a couple of wounds of something. Ask yourself if 15 deathcompany, 30 bloodletters oder a full squad of shining spears really care. Imho investing the 190 points in scarabs for a proper screen is the better investment
it's more for blocking massed grouped deeptrikes, since they can only get one unit down before your deathmarks deny the rest of the area.
Obviously this is not a great plan as if they have units of 5 or more then you have enough space to place buffing models such as you'd find in a bloodletter or sanguinary guard bomb but above is the general reasoning behind the strategy.
2018/03/31 09:35:34
Subject: Necrons NEW 8th ed. Codex tactica - 3/27 first draft of unit grading in OP
Problem is it all falls apart if the enemy properly blocks the midfield with infiltrating units (scouts/nurglings). He will abolute board controll and you cant place your deathmarks anywhere but your own deployment where they wont block anything
