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moonsmite wrote:
Yesterday was in a local tournament which had 4 Necron players out of 20,

Came join 5th with the list in my sig. The guy who tabled me also joined me at 5th lol (not much i can do against 180 orc boys with da jumps into my face. though did get him down to about 30 or so)

Guy who came first, was also Necrons. Using 3 DDA, 17 Destroyers and 6 Wraiths. was a brutal list to be fair. though dont think mephit benefited the destroyers much imo.

I tell you it's weird seeing other necrons at tournaments, I only had two at mine this weekend (myself and one other) and the reaction is always like:



I think we might be seeing more of us though, when I came in the store was almost sold out of Necrons, and after my almost win (got second by going 3-0) lots of people expressed interest in starting necrons. The dirty secret though is I feel I won more despite my necrons than because of them. It's probably just the combination of me being rusty with necrons after a long break, and it being a new list I hadn't worked the kinks out of yet.

The first was a mortarion/pox walker farm, which I won by isolating mortarion, killing him the second round. He held his pox walkers back to keep them out of my range while playing with his cultist forward, so I just used MWBD Tesla Immortals to kill all of his cultist in a single volley, which forced him to place his new pox walkers in his deployment zone (within cohesion of the existing pox walkers). I then kept him off of the objectives by rushing the pox walker blob with my wraiths, while Morty got killed by destroyers and tomb blades. Then I just collapsed the two halves of my army on him, and we hit time on the fourth round. My opponent was so afraid of losing morty that he deployed him away from the main body of my army thinking he would be safe to flank, but deep striking destroyers and fast moving tomb blades were able to win that fight with fairly minimal losses, after that it was almost a 2 to 1 points advantage in my favor so it was literally just moping up. I feel like I won this one because I was the better problem solver, not because my army was better than his, if he had come right at me with his whole force instead of trying to flank I would have been in trouble.

Second was also against death guard, just a solid list with a mix drones, pox walkers, plague marines, lead by typhus, a lord of contagion, and a DP. The long and the short is I won by trading better. We met at the middle of the board, due to deployment he had a hard time concentrating fire, and deployed wide and shallow. Things were pretty even until my wraiths broke through his line and killed typhus, his plague caster, and whatever the dude with bell is. After that you could see the fight leave my opponents eyes, he tried a deep strike charge on my immortals but failed and lost his terminators and lord of contagion. After that he conceded. Necrons traded fairly well, he lost his DP and I lost My D-lord, and were able to hold the line, it was anyone's game until the wraiths did their thing. His HQ would have been perfectly safe against any other threat, they were properly screened against deep strike and far enough back to not be consolidated into. Wraith Flight let them break off from the DP, find a hole, and gut his leadership.

Third was against Tau, objectives and setup were important for this one so I'll briefly go over them. The store mission had three objectives, one of the southwest, one in the middle of the board, and one in the northeast. The deployment for this one was quadrants with a 9" no mans land in the center. I won the roll to chose quadrant and I chose the south east. My plan was to use nephrek to rush the objectives with my warriors and immortals, and cross the T on him. His plan was to huddle up deep in the northwest corner thin out my ranks and then go claim objectives. He was running a ghostkeel, 3 stealth suits, a riptide, three broadsides, some fire warriors and pathfinders. during deployment I placed the wraiths in the middle of my line out in the open, to give them a straight line to his troops if I went first, and if I lost the roll off to bait him into wasting his alpha strike on my wraiths. After I deployed he set up his Ghostkeel and stealth suits on the objective in the north east. He won the roll off and took the bait, dropped his entire armies firepower into my wraiths, and killed all but one. It's at this point I'm thinking I might be in trouble, he nuked one of my strongest units, and is already contesting one of the objectives I had counted on. I drop the 2 cp to have the wraiths roll RP and get two back, and send them with the d-lord off to deal with the stealth suits and ghost keel. I knew at half strength they would likely get overwatched off of the board if they went after his main blob. and they spent the rest fo the game playing cat and mouse with his infiltrators killing his drones and stealth suits but never sealing the deal on the ghostkeel. I drop the destroyers in close to his blob, and zoom the tomb blades up. his is forking his novacharge to get the invul and his broadsides are in cover, so I didn't waste shots on them and instead went for the pathfinders and fire warriors. I drop the pathfinders and a unit of fire warriors, and maul another unit. He then proceeds to beat the crap out of my tomb blades and destroyers with the riptide and broadsides, thanks to RP I was getting some back every round so it takes him about three shooting phases to kill them all. However while he was killing them I get the other unit of fire warriors and kill most of his drones. Then my opponent realizes what just happened, without marker lights his offense is much weaker, and he has lost almost all of his anti-infantry fire power with the deaths of the drones and the fire warriors. My obsec infantry are just camping out on two of the objectives, and my wraiths chase him ghostkeel off of the third one. The final score is like 11 to 3. I should have lost this match, his list was flat better than mine, more firepower, more tricks, better synergy. I won because I was able to keep him off of objectives, took out his marker lights early on, and eliminated his ability to deal with my infantry (at great cost to my own army in the process). Though i can mark making tau charge me off of my bucket list, as he had to charge his riptide at my last tomb blade to kill it.

So uhhh Necrons won the first GT after codex with vault. ._.

C'tan shards can't gain the benefit from dynasty codes, but can they proc things for the the <dynasty> detachment they are in?

Ex. C'tan shard and Methodical Destruction

I'm leaning towards a no on this, but can someone confirm?

Necronplayer wrote:
C'tan shards can't gain the benefit from dynasty codes, but can they proc things for the the <dynasty> detachment they are in?

Ex. C'tan shard and Methodical Destruction

I'm leaning towards a no on this, but can someone confirm?

I don't see why not? They are <dynasty>. You're not allowed to benefit from the dynastic codes, but they don't say anything about stratagems.

Edit: I should mention that TV's are dynasty. The other shards aren't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, while looking through I noticed a typo. There are rules for "C'tan Shard", but there are no units called "C'tan Shard" only "C'tan Shards".

I doubt that anyone would ever be padantic to try and get advantage from it, but it's there.

If they try, just bring in your Ghost Ark loaded with ten Catacomb Command Barges...

So I've tried running the Transcendent C'tan twice, and thought I'd share my experiences thus far.

Both games were at the 1000pts, for context.

My conclusion from its performance is that Cosmic Tyrant is nearly mandatory from an efficiency perspective. If you're not casting two powers a turn, the c'tan is unlikely to be earning its points worth. It may be a playstyle thing, but I found that the chance of rolling Cosmic Tyrant and another desirable trait for fractured personality wasn't worth the risk.

The other traits might make it more durable, or make it faster, but it just tries to turn the c'tan into smth it wasn't meant to be, imho. It isn't really meant to be a CC monster/roadblock, we have wraiths and scarabs for that. The main draw was the powers, and if you only fling d3 mortal wounds a turn...

Gonna be running a Tesseract Vault next, just to see if the strategy of running a mortal wounds spam build makes sense. If it does make such a big difference, i might just forgo rolling for fractured personality next time.

Thoughts?

I've been trying to work out a good loadout for wraiths.
For me, it seems the best loadout would be claws + pistols with maybe a single whip.

Whips are nice, but they add to the cost of a wraiths. Still, the idea of being guaranteed attacks in the fight phase is tempting, which is why just one might be a good idea.

I'm not sold on beamers. Those are pretty pricey and don't really deal that much damage. Not to mention that unless you are running sautekh, you will be receiving hit penalties.
Is it worth fielding one, or should I not bother?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I've been trying to work out a good loadout for wraiths.
For me, it seems the best loadout would be claws + pistols with maybe a single whip.

Whips are nice, but they add to the cost of a wraiths. Still, the idea of being guaranteed attacks in the fight phase is tempting, which is why just one might be a good idea.

I'm not sold on beamers. Those are pretty pricey and don't really deal that much damage. Not to mention that unless you are running sautekh, you will be receiving hit penalties.
Is it worth fielding one, or should I not bother?

I would just run them with no extra weapons.

As you pointed out, the guns don't do that much damage, or inflate the cost unnecessarily. Whip coils, while nice, are somewhat redundant. I say this because wraiths can fall back and charge, ensuring that they hit first in most cases.

In the event that you are charged, it is relatively unlikely that the opponent can wipe them all out in CC. Those few units that can would probably shrug off whatever retaliatory strike you were hoping to pull off anyway.

I'd personally save the points to try and get more CP so I can use RP on the wraiths, but YMMV of course.

willow wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I've been trying to work out a good loadout for wraiths.
For me, it seems the best loadout would be claws + pistols with maybe a single whip.

Whips are nice, but they add to the cost of a wraiths. Still, the idea of being guaranteed attacks in the fight phase is tempting, which is why just one might be a good idea.

I'm not sold on beamers. Those are pretty pricey and don't really deal that much damage. Not to mention that unless you are running sautekh, you will be receiving hit penalties.
Is it worth fielding one, or should I not bother?

I would just run them with no extra weapons.

As you pointed out, the guns don't do that much damage, or inflate the cost unnecessarily. Whip coils, while nice, are somewhat redundant. I say this because wraiths can fall back and charge, ensuring that they hit first in most cases.

In the event that you are charged, it is relatively unlikely that the opponent can wipe them all out in CC. Those few units that can would probably shrug off whatever retaliatory strike you were hoping to pull off anyway.

I'd personally save the points to try and get more CP so I can use RP on the wraiths, but YMMV of course.

I agree with just running them plain. They are already expensive as is, once you start adding options they just get too expensive.

 Sasori wrote:

willow wrote:

...

I agree with just running them plain. They are already expensive as is, once you start adding options they just get too expensive.

How about keeping just one or perhaps two, if you expect them to get charged. If they chip a wound or two of someone, in a pure isolated mathematical sense, they likely would make their 6pt back again, a wound on a multiwound model certainly is costed at more than 6pt. A unit of cheap hordes likely won't lose "utility value" worth 6pt, but its something to keep in mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah, its 9pt, but still

willow wrote:
So I've tried running the Transcendent C'tan twice, and thought I'd share my experiences thus far.

Both games were at the 1000pts, for context.

My conclusion from its performance is that Cosmic Tyrant is nearly mandatory from an efficiency perspective. If you're not casting two powers a turn, the c'tan is unlikely to be earning its points worth. It may be a playstyle thing, but I found that the chance of rolling Cosmic Tyrant and another desirable trait for fractured personality wasn't worth the risk.

The other traits might make it more durable, or make it faster, but it just tries to turn the c'tan into smth it wasn't meant to be, imho. It isn't really meant to be a CC monster/roadblock, we have wraiths and scarabs for that. The main draw was the powers, and if you only fling d3 mortal wounds a turn...

Gonna be running a Tesseract Vault next, just to see if the strategy of running a mortal wounds spam build makes sense. If it does make such a big difference, i might just forgo rolling for fractured personality next time.

Thoughts?

That's what I've been thinking too about the T. C'tan. However, 225 points just for some Mortal Wounds per turn? I dunno... A C'tan is meant to get stuck in.

However, what is your opinion on the Nightbringer compared to the T. C'tan? He's 15 points cheaper, has a powerful ranged attack and is better against any non-vehicle unit that is T4+.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So uhhh Necrons won the first GT after codex with vault. ._.

Spoiler:

What WL trait did he use? I could see reroll charge working, or -1 Damage if he really wanted to be unkillable, maybe the reroll to wound or +D3 attacks vs chars?

It's a nice fast list, it might struggle vs a parkinglot thought, with just the Destroyers+HD for kinda anti-tank. The wraiths and C'tan(s) could do some work vs vehicles as well I guess.

 Nagerash wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So uhhh Necrons won the first GT after codex with vault. ._.

Spoiler:

What WL trait did he use? I could see reroll charge working, or -1 Damage if he really wanted to be unkillable, maybe the reroll to wound or +D3 attacks vs chars?

It's a nice fast list, it might struggle vs a parkinglot thought, with just the Destroyers+HD for kinda anti-tank. The wraiths and C'tan(s) could do some work vs vehicles as well I guess.

Impressive. Makes me happy on the inside. My question is where is the second artifact he took? Am I missing something?

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Nagerash wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So uhhh Necrons won the first GT after codex with vault. ._.

Spoiler:

What WL trait did he use? I could see reroll charge working, or -1 Damage if he really wanted to be unkillable, maybe the reroll to wound or +D3 attacks vs chars?

It's a nice fast list, it might struggle vs a parkinglot thought, with just the Destroyers+HD for kinda anti-tank. The wraiths and C'tan(s) could do some work vs vehicles as well I guess.

Impressive. Makes me happy on the inside. My question is where is the second artifact he took? Am I missing something?

It's probably a VoD for the cryptek to veil the warriors in Mephrit range when the melee group (DLord+Wraiths+C'tan) reaches their lines?

 Nagerash wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Nagerash wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So uhhh Necrons won the first GT after codex with vault. ._.

Spoiler:

What WL trait did he use? I could see reroll charge working, or -1 Damage if he really wanted to be unkillable, maybe the reroll to wound or +D3 attacks vs chars?

It's a nice fast list, it might struggle vs a parkinglot thought, with just the Destroyers+HD for kinda anti-tank. The wraiths and C'tan(s) could do some work vs vehicles as well I guess.

Impressive. Makes me happy on the inside. My question is where is the second artifact he took? Am I missing something?

It's probably a VoD for the cryptek to veil the warriors in Mephrit range when the melee group (DLord+Wraiths+C'tan) reaches their lines?

Oh, you know, now that I think about it. Yeah, you don't put that relic on your roster, correct? You can choose it last minute, right before the battle.

arhurt wrote:
What has a better cost to killing power ratio?

10x Deathmarks (190pts)
10x Nephrekt Gauss Immortals (170pts + 1cp)

I'm ignoring the fact that the Deathmarks can target characters, as pointed out previously, it's better to use them for another function. The mortal wounds can stack up considerably against elite infantry or demons, but I feel like the -2 AP is better at everything else.

1) You can do mephrit Deathmarks.
2) They can intercept an ennemy deepstriking (almost every list has one), effectively shooting twice on that turn.
3) Give em a lord to reroll 1s to wound and improve the chance of MW.

I have a combo: C'Tan Deceiver who dispalces with a lord (and any other unit of your choice if you roll 2 or 3 on your D3, but the lord is there). Then the Deathmarks can deepstrike by themselves in range of the lord and do their thing.

Whelp, with that winning GT list, I've started necrons (forgebane, immortals, vault, start collecting x2, destroyers, destro-lord, deceiver)

Which means I'm going to have to add necrons to my mathammer spreadsheet sooner rather than later.

Anything else I should get?

Any thoughts on this list?

Just a heads up, Necrons will be featured on Warhammer Live this Friday, with Tactical Tips at 5 PM BST.

Necronplayer wrote:
C'tan shards can't gain the benefit from dynasty codes, but can they proc things for the the <dynasty> detachment they are in?

Ex. C'tan shard and Methodical Destruction

I'm leaning towards a no on this, but can someone confirm?

Even if the Vault could take a dynastic code, I'm not sure it would be worth it as you would need a Supreme Command Detachment with x3 HQ choices I think? Our HQ's are a bit limited to begin with, so the only option would be to run x3 Vaults, which wouldn't make you many friends (but would be a strong army if you have the wallet for it).

The Necron stratagems are usable but the code stratagems are off for the vault I think.

Dynasty keywords are not the same thing as Dynasty codes. Even if a unit cannot gain the benefit of a Dynasty code (because it has the C'tan keyword, or is in a super-heavy auxillary detachment), they still count as a <Dynasty> unit as long as they have the keyword. This means that they can still use strategems and trigger things like Methodical Destruction.

T.Vaults only don't get the benefits from Dynasty Codes if taken as Super Heavy Auxiliary. The restriction isn't there for the other methods of taking them in other Lord of War ok detachments.
...
But does anyone even *have* three Vaults to try out that Deceiver Mega Nuke idea?
(I mean, I posted it as a joke, but the Deceiver Bomb itself was initially a joke idea that turned out to actually be useable, so who knows how this ridiculous thing might actually function in a competitive setting?)

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Whelp, with that winning GT list, I've started necrons (forgebane, immortals, vault, start collecting x2, destroyers, destro-lord, deceiver)

Which means I'm going to have to add necrons to my mathammer spreadsheet sooner rather than later.

Anything else I should get?

Chronotek if you run immo and destroyers.
Lord if you get 3 hq.
DArk for more heavy power.
Wraiths?

Doctoralex wrote:

willow wrote:
So I've tried running the Transcendent C'tan twice, and thought I'd share my experiences thus far.

Both games were at the 1000pts, for context.

My conclusion from its performance is that Cosmic Tyrant is nearly mandatory from an efficiency perspective. If you're not casting two powers a turn, the c'tan is unlikely to be earning its points worth. It may be a playstyle thing, but I found that the chance of rolling Cosmic Tyrant and another desirable trait for fractured personality wasn't worth the risk.

The other traits might make it more durable, or make it faster, but it just tries to turn the c'tan into smth it wasn't meant to be, imho. It isn't really meant to be a CC monster/roadblock, we have wraiths and scarabs for that. The main draw was the powers, and if you only fling d3 mortal wounds a turn...

Gonna be running a Tesseract Vault next, just to see if the strategy of running a mortal wounds spam build makes sense. If it does make such a big difference, i might just forgo rolling for fractured personality next time.

Thoughts?

That's what I've been thinking too about the T. C'tan. However, 225 points just for some Mortal Wounds per turn? I dunno... A C'tan is meant to get stuck in.

However, what is your opinion on the Nightbringer compared to the T. C'tan? He's 15 points cheaper, has a powerful ranged attack and is better against any non-vehicle unit that is T4+.

The one thing that keeps me coming back to the mortal wounds "spam" is that they cut through invul saves and high toughness. Stuff like Shield Captains need to be careful about their positioning when you bring out a C'tan that can fling 2D3 wounds with no denies or saves allowed.

I haven't actually thought about the Nightbringer that much since my lists are generally more shooty, trying to not avoid getting locked in combat etc. A Nightbringer in that list would be a very expensive countercharge unit. The other thing that worries me about getting stuck in is that there are a lot of things out there that can easily take out a C'tan in melee. (I'm looking at you Slamguinius)

Having said that, it's a good point you make about the Nightbringer, I'll have to mull it over. He definitely brings the killy in a more traditional sense.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skoffs wrote:
T.Vaults only don't get the benefits from Dynasty Codes if taken as Super Heavy Auxiliary. The restriction isn't there for the other methods of taking them in other Lord of War ok detachments.
...
But does anyone even *have* three Vaults to try out that Deceiver Mega Nuke idea?
(I mean, I posted it as a joke, but the Deceiver Bomb itself was initially a joke idea that turned out to actually be useable, so who knows how this ridiculous thing might actually function in a competitive setting?)

Vaults still have the <C'tan Shard> Keyword though. If I haven't read the Codex wrongly, that means they can never benefit from the Dynasty Codes.

I sadly only have one Vault, as a nice fluffy centre-piece for my army. Never thought I'd see the day where it'd be so competitive that people would want three....

 skoffs wrote:
T.Vaults only don't get the benefits from Dynasty Codes if taken as Super Heavy Auxiliary. The restriction isn't there for the other methods of taking them in other Lord of War ok detachments.
...
But does anyone even *have* three Vaults to try out that Deceiver Mega Nuke idea?
(I mean, I posted it as a joke, but the Deceiver Bomb itself was initially a joke idea that turned out to actually be useable, so who knows how this ridiculous thing might actually function in a competitive setting?)

Codex 108: ctan shard can never benefit from dynasty code. Valut have ctan key word.

 skoffs wrote:
T.Vaults only don't get the benefits from Dynasty Codes if taken as Super Heavy Auxiliary. The restriction isn't there for the other methods of taking them in other Lord of War ok detachments.
...
But does anyone even *have* three Vaults to try out that Deceiver Mega Nuke idea?
(I mean, I posted it as a joke, but the Deceiver Bomb itself was initially a joke idea that turned out to actually be useable, so who knows how this ridiculous thing might actually function in a competitive setting?)

Ive git two and am actively looking for my third. If i continue having an issue i may just use the pylon. Current list being:

Leaves 41 points to play with. Undecided on dynasty. Mephrit makes those strength 7 tesla that much scarier. Nihilakh venefits the pylon and has the potential to give a vault a 3++ if it needs it. Sautekh would give me the potential cp regen.

Inevitableq wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
T.Vaults only don't get the benefits from Dynasty Codes if taken as Super Heavy Auxiliary. The restriction isn't there for the other methods of taking them in other Lord of War ok detachments.
...
But does anyone even *have* three Vaults to try out that Deceiver Mega Nuke idea?
(I mean, I posted it as a joke, but the Deceiver Bomb itself was initially a joke idea that turned out to actually be useable, so who knows how this ridiculous thing might actually function in a competitive setting?)

Ive git two and am actively looking for my third. If i continue having an issue i may just use the pylon. Current list being:

Spoiler:

Super heavy detachment
Vault 496
Vault 496
Pylon 550

Outrider
Cloaltek 85
Deceiver 225
Scarab 3x3

Leaves 41 points to play with. Undecided on dynasty. Mephrit makes those strength 7 tesla that much scarier. Nihilakh venefits the pylon and has the potential to give a vault a 3++ if it needs it. Sautekh would give me the potential cp regen.

Yeah as we pointed out, Mephrit does nothing for all the C'tan. Still, 20 shots, 20 hits, at S7 with mathematical averages should still damage something. Does the pylon gain any benefits from Dynasty codes? I remember reading somewhere in this thread that it also didn't gain any benefit.

Not that it's not a good tactic mind you. 3 Vaults in your face with all them mortal wounds and tesla shots will tear people a new one.

willow wrote:

Inevitableq wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
T.Vaults only don't get the benefits from Dynasty Codes if taken as Super Heavy Auxiliary. The restriction isn't there for the other methods of taking them in other Lord of War ok detachments.
...
But does anyone even *have* three Vaults to try out that Deceiver Mega Nuke idea?
(I mean, I posted it as a joke, but the Deceiver Bomb itself was initially a joke idea that turned out to actually be useable, so who knows how this ridiculous thing might actually function in a competitive setting?)

Ive git two and am actively looking for my third. If i continue having an issue i may just use the pylon. Current list being:

Spoiler:

Super heavy detachment
Vault 496
Vault 496
Pylon 550

Outrider
Cloaltek 85
Deceiver 225
Scarab 3x3

Leaves 41 points to play with. Undecided on dynasty. Mephrit makes those strength 7 tesla that much scarier. Nihilakh venefits the pylon and has the potential to give a vault a 3++ if it needs it. Sautekh would give me the potential cp regen.

Yeah as we pointed out, Mephrit does nothing for all the C'tan. Still, 20 shots, 20 hits, at S7 with mathematical averages should still damage something. Does the pylon gain any benefits from Dynasty codes? I remember reading somewhere in this thread that it also didn't gain any benefit.

Was likely my post you read. Pylon gains codes just fine the issue is super-heavy auxilary detatchments do not. So outside if strategems the pylon only really gets a boost from nihilakh. Mephrit is a bit of over kill as it already has -4 ap. For the other three the pylon cant move so its kinda pointless.

I notice nobody takes res orbs. Are they just considered not worth it?

 Woolly.Mammoth wrote:
I notice nobody takes res orbs. Are they just considered not worth it?

From what I've gathered, most people don't like Silver Tide or infantry blobs in general, so Rez Orbs don't add much to the list. But are they bad? No, not at all.