Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What does everyone thing about the Gauss Pylon? Outside of killing <TITANIC> units, is there really a use for them in competitive play? 550 points is pretty hefty, where 2-3 DDAs will do the trick.

Rumbling_Otter wrote:
What does everyone thing about the Gauss Pylon? Outside of killing <TITANIC> units, is there really a use for them in competitive play? 550 points is pretty hefty, where 2-3 DDAs will do the trick.

I think there was a discussion on this quite a few pages back.....general consensus seemed to be that DDA is the better option unless you're dealing with titans.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Aaaaaand what's the cost for the Ghost Ark?

I admit those numbers look worse than I was expecting, but when you consider that you're getting the firepower of 10 warriors (120pts) and a better RP aura than a Cryptek (70pts), 160pts looks good. Perhaps comparing it to a rhino it should drop 10-20 points. The important thing to take from the numbers is that it takes a significant amount of firepower to take it down whatever shoots at it, where as the rhino is weak against any big guns.

If it could carry 20 warriors, that would be awesome, but the model will look a bit out of place. Transporting immortals would be an interesting change, even if it's a little against the fluff...

As already mentioned, their roll is to support warriors, transporting them is just an extra. Keep one behind two units of warriors, late game when one is down below 10 models use the transport to grab an objective, and perhaps boost the unit back to 10 with a buff when disembarked on top.

MrPieChee wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Aaaaaand what's the cost for the Ghost Ark?

I admit those numbers look worse than I was expecting, but when you consider that you're getting the firepower of 10 warriors (120pts) and a better RP aura than a Cryptek (70pts), 160pts looks good. Perhaps comparing it to a rhino it should drop 10-20 points. The important thing to take from the numbers is that it takes a significant amount of firepower to take it down whatever shoots at it, where as the rhino is weak against any big guns.

If it could carry 20 warriors, that would be awesome, but the model will look a bit out of place. Transporting immortals would be an interesting change, even if it's a little against the fluff...

As already mentioned, their roll is to support warriors, transporting them is just an extra. Keep one behind two units of warriors, late game when one is down below 10 models use the transport to grab an objective, and perhaps boost the unit back to 10 with a buff when disembarked on top.

So my point is that, based on the cost, allowing Warriors in it to shoot wouldn't be a big deal.

Just remember to take that warlord trait you need to be Sautekh Dynasty.

If we're going with wishlists for rules changes instead of talking tactics, I'd say that they should just get rid of the warrior distinction altogether on Ghost Arks.

Their RP Aura should work on anything with RP.
Their ability to transport should work on any infantry without fly.

Boom, instantly viable. Scytheguard also instantly viable. Destroyers and Tomb Blades would benefit, but still be relatively weaker since fast Immortals would compete with TBs and Scythguard would compete with Destroyers for heavy killing.

Xachariah wrote:
If we're going with wishlists for rules changes instead of talking tactics

No, please.
We had finally just gotten back on topic after pages of irrelevant waffling.

If you want to talk Ghost Arks usage, let's stick to current usability... or lack thereof.
At the moment, yes, it's just a Warrior ambulance. And as Warriors are currently mediocre, the Ghost Ark by extension is not so great.
With all the delivery options we have available it's not even that good as an HQ taxi anymore (I miss Royal Court Disco Inferno Party Bus).
We could talk about all the ways they could have made it a better unit, but honestly that does nothing to help anything.

First game with Necrons. Played a semi-competitive game vs Chaos.
My list


His list


Batrep:

Things I've learned/knew already: vault is REALLY squishy, barges feel really bad for their points, mephrit is a trap and did next to nothing in the game, sniper trait and artifact are awful, gauss was always not in RF range so tesla is just better, I need destroyers(finally in stock so I ordered them).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a follow-up, my view of the codex is:
Sautekh - almost useless trait(unless someone can prove me otherwise), overpriced gem, best warlord trait)
Mephrit - trap, just bad
Novokh - necrons aren't a CC army
Nihilakh - 3DDA spearhead
Nephrekh - best one for everything not 3DDA spearhead

WL Traits - morale immune + psyker. Everything else seems bad
Relics - veil. Everything else seems bad

Units to use:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
So my 3 lists for now are:
Vault:

DDA:

Toomblades:

Im glad others are coming to realization Mephrit are a trap. Though do feel you undervalued Sautekh. personally love having my doomsday arks in this, as it allows them to be very fast and useful after all the larger targets are delt with. That and i pop CP like candy, so getting back on 5+ has saved me on multiple occasions

So it only helps DDAs, really? And only with the -1 if they move which I really don't want them to. Eh... Maybe? Just run spearhead to get that juicy trait? /shrug
Seems pretty good. Maybe Nihilak is just not worth it. Re-roll 1 if not moving vs 5+ CP trait and better if moving. hm...

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So it only helps DDAs, really? And only with the -1 if they move which I really don't want them to. Eh... Maybe? Just run spearhead to get that juicy trait? /shrug
Seems pretty good. Maybe Nihilak is just not worth it. Re-roll 1 if not moving vs 5+ CP trait and better if moving. hm...

I always take DDA as Sautekh and aggresively move forward after the first turns of shooting. Having them block enemy troops, or shoot their flayers is worth it big times. I only got good experience with this.

Edit:
Heavy melee units with high dmg weapons hate them up close!

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So it only helps DDAs, really? And only with the -1 if they move which I really don't want them to. Eh... Maybe? Just run spearhead to get that juicy trait? /shrug
Seems pretty good. Maybe Nihilak is just not worth it. Re-roll 1 if not moving vs 5+ CP trait and better if moving. hm...

Haven't tried Mephrit yet so I cannot attest to that. However, Novokh is fun and was decent in the one game I tried it. Sautekh is great. The warlord trait and Methodical Destruction are really good, and the Abyssal Staff is free and can sometimes be used to almost auto trigger Methodical Destruction. Also, Imotekh. Double MWBD and then Advancing and shooting at normal BS. How is that bad?

Nephrekh seems almost the go-to for most people at this point, and I see why.

Imotekh is not great. 2 OLs are a direct comparison: they take up more spots, they are better durability and about on par damage wise, they cost less. So immotekh has 1 CP and the OPG ability. If that's worth having to take another HQ and having to pay more points - eh, I don't think so. Depends on the list I guess

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Imotekh is not great. 2 OLs are a direct comparison: they take up more spots, they are better durability and about on par damage wise, they cost less. So immotekh has 1 CP and the OPG ability. If that's worth having to take another HQ and having to pay more points - eh, I don't think so. Depends on the list I guess

To each their own. He's been great every time I've played him.

I think that the main problem with Mephrit is that it requires units that can be consistently in half range to be effective, which makes it sub-optimal for Warriors and Immortals. However, I think that it really shines for outrider detachments of Tesla tomb blades. Having the Tesla profile allows them to be effective outside of 12", and then if they enter rapid fire range, they outperform gauss tomb blades against most targets due to the -1 AP from Mephrit

 krodarklorr wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So it only helps DDAs, really? And only with the -1 if they move which I really don't want them to. Eh... Maybe? Just run spearhead to get that juicy trait? /shrug
Seems pretty good. Maybe Nihilak is just not worth it. Re-roll 1 if not moving vs 5+ CP trait and better if moving. hm...

Haven't tried Mephrit yet so I cannot attest to that. However, Novokh is fun and was decent in the one game I tried it. Sautekh is great. The warlord trait and Methodical Destruction are really good, and the Abyssal Staff is free and can sometimes be used to almost auto trigger Methodical Destruction. Also, Imotekh. Double MWBD and then Advancing and shooting at normal BS. How is that bad?

Nephrekh seems almost the go-to for most people at this point, and I see why.

Mephrit is very strong if you want to kill marines who are "tough" due to have a good armor save. Just you still need to build your army around a strategy of teleportation or accross the field very fast. Now marines are almost on the edge of being "kicked out" of the competitive play so its value is not as high as we formerly expected.

I think in the current meta, the major factor defining "tough" becomes either hard to hit, inv saves or FnP, or even just cheap enough in points that lossing lots of them does not matter. in such a situation a further AP-1 is good but not great.

Mephrit is very strong if you want to kill marines who are "tough" due to have a good armor save. Just you still need to build your army around a strategy of teleportation or accross the field very fast. Now marines are almost on the edge of being "kicked out" of the competitive play so its value is not as high as we formerly expected.

I think in the current meta, the major factor defining "tough" becomes either hard to hit, inv saves or FnP, or even just cheap enough in points that lossing lots of them does not matter. in such a situation a further AP-1 is good but not great.

Agreed, I played a game not too long ago where an Eldar army deep-struck in Fire Dragons to try and blow up a DDA. My 15 Warriors returned the greeting in kind; AP-2 combined with Solar Pulse made short work of them.

 skoffs wrote:

Xachariah wrote:
If we're going with wishlists for rules changes instead of talking tactics

No, please.
We had finally just gotten back on topic after pages of irrelevant waffling.

If you want to talk Ghost Arks usage, let's stick to current usability... or lack thereof.
At the moment, yes, it's just a Warrior ambulance. And as Warriors are currently mediocre, the Ghost Ark by extension is not so great.
With all the delivery options we have available it's not even that good as an HQ taxi anymore (I miss Royal Court Disco Inferno Party Bus).
We could talk about all the ways they could have made it a better unit, but honestly that does nothing to help anything.

Eh, warriors can be good, but you really have to invest in them. A couple of blobs of warriors supported by a ghost ark and a chronotek + lord + Immortal Pride can be pretty durable and has a huge amount of dps.
Remember that ghost arks can buff all units within 3" now instead of just one, so you really just need 1 ark per 1-4 warriors (assuming the warriors surround the ark). If a warrior squad drops below 10 throw them into the ark to get some bodies back in peace.
Of course, such a force will require at least 600 points, 2 HQ slots, 1 transport slot and a troops slot. Depending on the game's size, you might not have enough points to get any heavy hitters.

Yes, all of our things cost enough. Reanimation protocols are a part of the model cost, but for the first time ever I feel like it is appropriately costed. This is why cagey play is important for us. If you leave a unit that can be focus fired upon, then you deserve to lose it.
JY2's 6th/7th principle "Maximum Threat Overload" is very important to us. I feel that a Deceiver Drop +VoD, etc plays into this gamestyle... so many threats in their face that they cannot deal.

Mephrit is my go-to battalion.
Usually running x2 10 man Tesla Immortals, x1 Gauss Immortals, tomb blades, and some times destroyers. Pop a warlord with a chronometron and the immortal pride warlord trait.

The destroyers get 16.7% more deadly vs anything with a 2+ or 3+ save. Tesla immortals are just deadly with AP-1. Tesla tomb blades are stupidly good, esp with the stratagem for 1 ap that removes the benefits of cover, which also negates abilities that proc based on being in cover,

How do I get there?? I walk forward...aggressively. And things die. Get them to midfield, and they have a strong field of fire.
They pair very well with the VoD and the Deceiver. Get that rapid fire turn 2 at the latest.

Mephrit is also great against any army that is trying to assault you. Any failed chargers are basically written off as dead.

I think Mephrit was GW's attempt to get people to buy Night Scythes and give Tesla a boost.

Assault armies post FAQ xD Also, who are those armies with failed charges? Here's the list of charges I've faced: 3D6, 3'' charges(due to warptime/infiltrate+move equivalents), close range deepstrike. If you're facing anyone who does deepstrike->8/9'' charge (except orks), you are facing bad opponents with bad lists.

"The destroyers get 16.7% more deadly vs anything with a 2+ or 3+ save" that's not good enough to put them into a bad position

"Walk there". Well another army can drive/fly/whatever there. The footslogging troops should really stay at that 24'' tange picking off the closest target. Since if you kill it, nothing else can usually reach you to strike back. You can also deepstrike within 12'' but that can only be done on a single unit with veil. Deceiving doesn't work because 50% of the time you won't go first and the squishy elite tier troops.

I have no idea how you're not dying if you have everything within 12'' of your opponent and Necrons are actually not good durability wise as long as the opponent focuses units from 100% to 0%

If you're going mephrit you have to play very aggressive and you have to plan on ways to get up the board fast.

This is why I think mephrit is going to with best on lists you don't see a lot of. Everyone raves about immortals...a ghost ark with mephrit has almost equivalent firepower to 10 immortals, more movement, more durability....

The monolith, though over costed, has some pretty significant firepower if within 12 inches and it can help with mobility issues. Teleporting in a unit with mephrit is going to be a threat that needs to be addressed.

Tomb blades are going to delete troops and objective holders. Their high mobility will really help.

Three good units in the codex are still good, like DDA ave destroyers, but you can't build the same list as if you were going sautekh or nephrekh.

After all that, I will say mephrit is probably never going to be our most competitive build

So new Deathwatch Stratagems were teased and I think we might have some trouble on our hands

Necron_Mason wrote:
So new Deathwatch Stratagems were teased and I think we might have some trouble on our hands

Ha, jokes on them. A good Deathwatch player would just ignore our RP by killing us entirely. Which is easy.

So? Deathwatch are the anti-Xenos codex... SM players aren't going to give up their codex rules (including Bobby G) just to rain on our parade. Not when the rules will be useless next to 2/3 of the armies in the game.
At worst, there might be a small detachment of Deathwatch in an army. If you are really worried, you can make them your main target for DDA and Wraiths, etc.

 skoffs wrote:
Yep, looking like the best best-

Spoiler:

++ Nephrekh Battalion Detachment +5CP (Necrons) [85 PL, 1335pts] ++

+ HQ +
Lord [5 PL, 76pts]: Hyperphase Sword (+ Veil)
Overlord [6 PL, 95pts]: Warscythe

+ Troops +
5x Immortals [4 PL, 85pts]: Tesla Carbine
6x Immortals [8 PL, 102pts]: Tesla Carbine
6x Immortals [8 PL, 102pts]: Tesla Carbine

+ Fast Attack +
5x Canoptek Wraiths [18 PL, 275pts]
6x Destroyers [18 PL, 300pts]
6x Destroyers [18 PL, 300pts]

++ Sautekh Spearhead Detachment +1CP [35 PL, 664pts] ++

+ HQ +
Cryptek [5 PL, 85pts]: Canoptek Cloak, Staff of Light

+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 193pts]

+++ 1999pts +++

Really wish I could fit some Scarabs in with the Nephrekhs, but there's only room for three Fast slots, so no dice.
Maybe switch the forces around, so it's a Sautekh Battalion and a Nephrekh Outrider? Hmm, but then they'd be Sautekh Gauss Immortals (not bad, but not as useful as Neph Tesla Immortals).

I think the detachments are right the way you (and I) have them. The Immortals benefit much more form Nephrek, but more importantly you want 2 HQs in the same detachment as the Detroyers so that they can buff them. In a Sautekh battalion you would have 2 HQs that only buffed 5 man immortal units.

I still don't see the wraith as a good option for this list (despite making it more interesting) for the following reasons:

-My initial idea for the list came form the general agreement that a good Necron list needed (1) a battalion (2) Destroyers, and (3) DDAs. Adding anything different dilutes the power. Wraith were never in contention for being on that list, they are in the B tier with C'tan and Scarabs. Although a list that spams 18 of them may have some merit of it's own.

-We are talking about a list for the most competitive levels of play. A unit of Wraith will put the willies up a lot of players, but are not going to phase (hehe) serious power lists. Another unit of Destroyers, that can't be prevented from getting at least one round of shooting when they deep strike, is bad for anyone.

-Also, if we're discussing potentially tournament winning lists, you don't want to spend a significant amount of points on a unit that can be hard countered in some match ups (you need to win all games). Has anyone brought Wraith vs Magnus, or Ahriman on a disk? I have, and it's not pretty. They are faster than you, they will Death Hex you (no invuls), and they deal 3 flat damage per attack. They are the most extreme examples but any list running Death Hex, Null Zone or, to a lesser extent, Jinx will hard counter Wraith. Dark Reapers + Jinx? ouch.

-With 3 units of Destroyers instead, the list has good alpha strike denial, and a strong beta strike. The Wraith reduce both of these strengths significantly.
If you deep strike all the Destroyers then the only things you are worried about losing to an alpha strike are the DDAs. They will be deployed after 9 of your opponents drops, as far away as possible, with maximum distance between them and the Immortal screens. A unit of Wraith on the other hand would need to be deployed more aggressively in order to pose a threat, making them vulnerable to alphas. You will be giving the opponent something to do on their 1st turn.
The turn 2 (or 1 if you go second against an advancing enemy) beta strike is where this list aims to win big. It's very hard to stop all 3 destroyer units getting at least one turn of shooting. The Wraith on the other hand cannot be expected to get a charge off every game before they are killed, quite often they will never get to attack. The only real threat to the Destroyers before they get to shoot is from something like the Forewarned stratagem. Worst case scenario you will lose one of the Destroyer units when they deep strike. But only one. Having 3 units means that in this scenario 2 will still get to shoot. With the Wraith taking the place of a Destroyer unit, you could lose half your Beta strike to Forewarned.

-Less HQ synergy. This is sort of a minor one as the HQs are still mostly a tax. With the Lord and Overlord Veiling in to join the 2 Destroyer units that aren't benefiting from extermination protocols you are making more of their buffs, thereby reducing the proportion of their cost that can be considered a tax.

-Finally I think it's worth considering the worst case scenarios for each version of the list. How bad are they, and how likely are they?
As previously mentioned one of the biggest problems for either version is having the destroyers shot by units that can intercept deep strikers. This is worse for the Wraith version because both lists want to teleport at least one Destroyer unit.
The next problem is against lists that are very good at screening out deep strikers. The 24" range of destroyers makes that difficult but it can happen. Now you may think that wraith would deter screens from pushing forward, but I don't think they will. The screening units can move forward immediately before your turn 2, meaning that even if the wraith charge them, your deep strike will be pushed back. Also a unit of destroyer that are deployed, or land in your deployment zone turn 1 will do just as good a job of clearing that screen as the Wraith.
For the Wraith list there seems to be a very likely worst case scenario: Your opponent can destroy the Wraith on turn one with their alpha, AND they have a Forewarned type ability- bad times.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Assault armies post FAQ xD Also, who are those armies with failed charges? Here's the list of charges I've faced: 3D6, 3'' charges(due to warptime/infiltrate+move equivalents), close range deepstrike. If you're facing anyone who does deepstrike->8/9'' charge (except orks), you are facing bad opponents with bad lists.

"The destroyers get 16.7% more deadly vs anything with a 2+ or 3+ save" that's not good enough to put them into a bad position

"Walk there". Well another army can drive/fly/whatever there. The footslogging troops should really stay at that 24'' tange picking off the closest target. Since if you kill it, nothing else can usually reach you to strike back. You can also deepstrike within 12'' but that can only be done on a single unit with veil. Deceiving doesn't work because 50% of the time you won't go first and the squishy elite tier troops.

I have no idea how you're not dying if you have everything within 12'' of your opponent and Necrons are actually not good durability wise as long as the opponent focuses units from 100% to 0%

Cool your jets, no reason to get aggressive about it.

I've run into Kraken slingshotted genestealers double moving and advancing into a charge. They bump into a scarab screen. scarabs die. Then the Genestealers die to my troops. Its an effective trade. Dark eldar had the same problem, just found their vehicles annoying to kill.

Destroyers are fast enough to get where they want to be. Depends on the matchup if I run them in Nephrek outrider in DS or Mephrit on the board.

Our troops are some of the best in the game. I feature them heavily, and I give my opponents other things to shoot. Namely, wraiths in a Nephrek outrider going for the first turn charge with the strategem. That way, I get more str 5 shooting goodness. More often than not, they split their fire, and I can usually recover.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Ha, jokes on them. A good Deathwatch player would just ignore our RP by killing us entirely. Which is easy.

Lol fair enough. Even so, this stratagem makes any lucky chance that one of our units does survive much less sweet if they are in range to use it.

At least we didn't get as screwed as the Tau did XD

 Anpu-adom wrote:
So? Deathwatch are the anti-Xenos codex... SM players aren't going to give up their codex rules (including Bobby G) just to rain on our parade. Not when the rules will be useless next to 2/3 of the armies in the game.
At worst, there might be a small detachment of Deathwatch in an army. If you are really worried, you can make them your main target for DDA and Wraiths, etc.

Yeah, I can't imagine seeing pure Deathwatch armies too often, but with the Anti-Xenos rules I can see a lot of people splashing in a Detachment of them. Honestly not too worried, but something else we have to worry about.

Necron_Mason wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Ha, jokes on them. A good Deathwatch player would just ignore our RP by killing us entirely. Which is easy.

Lol fair enough. Even so, this stratagem makes any lucky chance that one of our units does survive much less sweet if they are in range to use it.

At least we didn't get as screwed as the Tau did XD

 Anpu-adom wrote:
So? Deathwatch are the anti-Xenos codex... SM players aren't going to give up their codex rules (including Bobby G) just to rain on our parade. Not when the rules will be useless next to 2/3 of the armies in the game.
At worst, there might be a small detachment of Deathwatch in an army. If you are really worried, you can make them your main target for DDA and Wraiths, etc.

Yeah, I can't imagine seeing pure Deathwatch armies too often, but with the Anti-Xenos rules I can see a lot of people splashing in a Detachment of them. Honestly not too worried, but something else we have to worry about.

How did Tau get screwed?