Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Doctoralex wrote:
Yea keep in mind that the Vault is eating ALL the anti-tank. The DDA won't be targeted because of QS and the Destroyers will eat plasma-esque weaponry.

TBH I don't get the love for the Vault.
Its a infantry killer...Our codex is already good at killing infantry. I get it, it pitches out mortal wounds, but I'm not sure its really worthwhile.

 iGuy91 wrote:

Doctoralex wrote:
Yea keep in mind that the Vault is eating ALL the anti-tank. The DDA won't be targeted because of QS and the Destroyers will eat plasma-esque weaponry.

TBH I don't get the love for the Vault.
Its a infantry killer...Our codex is already good at killing infantry. I get it, it pitches out mortal wounds, but I'm not sure its really worthwhile.

Well, Triple Vault Deceiver Bomb™ lists seem to be doing pretty well in the competitive scene. Maybe it's the singular Vaults in lists that aren't doing so great?
(I don't have any experience with either so I couldn't tell you)

The triple vault lists were the best performers in an underperforming group at the LGT. I wouldn't consider those results indicative of that list actually working at a highly competitive level.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The triple vault lists were the best performers in an underperforming group at the LGT. I wouldn't consider those results indicative of that list actually working at a highly competitive level.

Further tests would need to be conducted to form a better conclusion... but unfortunately, as has been mentioned already, not many people have access to three of the most expensive necron models available so these required tests will be few and far between.

D-Day™ lists, on the other hand (Destroyer & Doomsday centric builds), are fairly easy to come by, so we know how effective they can be.

Wish I had more Tomb Blades so I could experiment with them in lists. Quick mass Tesla or easy rapid fire range Gauss should in theory be pretty good, but without the numbers to pull it off it probably won't be as effective.


So regarding the tried and true favorites, if we make a min-max list of only our greatest hits (2x Overlords + 1x Cloak-tek, 3x10 Tesla Immortals, 3x6 Destroyers, 3x Doomsday Arks) that would come to about 2250 points... the key now is figuring out what to shave down to get it under 2k.
Easiest for me is to drop one Destroyer squad and replace with Scarabs to come in under cost. Some people might prefer to reduce the number of Immortals instead. Ymmv, obviously.

 Ordana wrote:
Yeah, Destroyers seems so far above everything else in the codex its kinda silly.

Uhuh....... 4th game with destroyers was them doing their best work. Which was barelly making back they points in FIVE shooting phases. And I spend 3 CP on them. I don't get it. Guess what - my opponent made his hive guard pts back in 1 phase with the double shoot. Like I don't know what to shoot with them. T5-6 is a rare sight for me. Everything is either T3,T4,T7 or T8. In 5 games against different opponents I got only 1 T5-T6 = obliterators (hive guard don't count as they're unshootable for most of the game).

BTW, still almost no cases where Mephrit could've done anything because people have invuls and where I use Nephrekh about 8 times per game.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Yeah, Destroyers seems so far above everything else in the codex its kinda silly.

Uhuh....... 4th game with destroyers was them doing their best work. Which was barelly making back they points in FIVE shooting phases. And I spend 3 CP on them. I don't get it. Guess what - my opponent made his hive guard pts back in 1 phase with the double shoot. Like I don't know what to shoot with them. T5-6 is a rare sight for me. Everything is either T3,T4,T7 or T8. In 5 games against different opponents I got only 1 T5-T6 = obliterators (hive guard don't count as they're unshootable for most of the game).

BTW, still almost no cases where Mephrit could've done anything because people have invuls and where I use Nephrekh about 8 times per game.

Even against T7/T8 3+, a unit of 6 with EP will be putting out almost 15 unsaved wounds on average. Point for point with EP, they are our best AV despite only being S6.

Reading through this thread to catch up, since I'm getting back into things after a few years off.

Previous list style that I had a lot of fun with was Canoptek creatures clearing out the ground to make way for Immortals coming in on Night Scythes. Wondering if this kind of thing is still viable.


Generally ran something on the order of

a Destroyer Lord or two in the initial ground wave leading the units

a squad of Canoptek Acanthrites

2 squads of Wraiths, generally with Whip Coils but I think I'll skip them this time in favor of Beamers or just claws

2 Canoptek Stalkers or Sentinels

2-3 Night Scythes with Immortals (with Tesla Carbines), dropping them down to take objectives and provide fire support once the machines have thinned things out, while the Scythes fly around to tear up light transports and things


I've heard Scythes aren't good anymore, nor Acanthrites. I thought about tossing in a Cryptek with each Immortal squad, but realized that they're not joining the unit, just hanging out with them, and the Scythes only teleport in one unit at a time so they'd have to come in in a second wave or something, so my followup thought was Crypteks with cloaks flying behind the Stalkers/Sentinels to keep them healthy. And Destroyer Lords don't impart Hatred to their units anymore, so there's less use of leading others with them, though could still be nice to add some extra punch.

Thoughts?

 Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:
Reading through this thread to catch up, since I'm getting back into things after a few years off.

Previous list style that I had a lot of fun with was Canoptek creatures clearing out the ground to make way for Immortals coming in on Night Scythes. Wondering if this kind of thing is still viable.

Spoiler:

Generally ran something on the order of

a Destroyer Lord or two in the initial ground wave leading the units

a squad of Canoptek Acanthrites

2 squads of Wraiths, generally with Whip Coils but I think I'll skip them this time in favor of Beamers or just claws

2 Canoptek Stalkers or Sentinels

2-3 Night Scythes with Immortals (with Tesla Carbines), dropping them down to take objectives and provide fire support once the machines have thinned things out, while the Scythes fly around to tear up light transports and things

I've heard Scythes aren't good anymore, nor Acanthrites. I thought about tossing in a Cryptek with each Immortal squad, but realized that they're not joining the unit, just hanging out with them, and the Scythes only teleport in one unit at a time so they'd have to come in in a second wave or something, so my followup thought was Crypteks with cloaks flying behind the Stalkers/Sentinels to keep them healthy. And Destroyer Lords don't impart Hatred to their units anymore, so there's less use of leading others with them, though could still be nice to add some extra punch.

Thoughts?

Yeah, unfortunately almost all of that isn't very viable anymore.
• Immortals are still good, but Night Scythes are not. Immortals don't really need Crypteks, but would LOVE some Overlord support.
• Wraiths are decent (keep them naked), but the Destroyer Lord isn't really a great match with them (nor is he really all that worth taking).
• Acanthrites are worse than Wraiths, more or less. Scarabs are great, though! Don't bother with Spyders, however.

Yeah i was casting 3 a turn and i had deceived it up. I'm playing again tonight but my original list I'll see how it gets on.

Necronplayer wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Yeah, Destroyers seems so far above everything else in the codex its kinda silly.

Uhuh....... 4th game with destroyers was them doing their best work. Which was barelly making back they points in FIVE shooting phases. And I spend 3 CP on them. I don't get it. Guess what - my opponent made his hive guard pts back in 1 phase with the double shoot. Like I don't know what to shoot with them. T5-6 is a rare sight for me. Everything is either T3,T4,T7 or T8. In 5 games against different opponents I got only 1 T5-T6 = obliterators (hive guard don't count as they're unshootable for most of the game).

BTW, still almost no cases where Mephrit could've done anything because people have invuls and where I use Nephrekh about 8 times per game.

Even against T7/T8 3+, a unit of 6 with EP will be putting out almost 15 unsaved wounds on average. Point for point with EP, they are our best AV despite only being S6.

I know I've done the math. But ugh. I really want to have a good experience with them. SOME. DAY. I hope that day will come soon.

Still, you have to keep pumping them with CP. Is it even worth it at that point? I'll take my "wee bit worse" damage with DDA if I don't have to pump it with CP.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Necronplayer wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Yeah, Destroyers seems so far above everything else in the codex its kinda silly.

Uhuh....... 4th game with destroyers was them doing their best work. Which was barelly making back they points in FIVE shooting phases. And I spend 3 CP on them. I don't get it. Guess what - my opponent made his hive guard pts back in 1 phase with the double shoot. Like I don't know what to shoot with them. T5-6 is a rare sight for me. Everything is either T3,T4,T7 or T8. In 5 games against different opponents I got only 1 T5-T6 = obliterators (hive guard don't count as they're unshootable for most of the game).

BTW, still almost no cases where Mephrit could've done anything because people have invuls and where I use Nephrekh about 8 times per game.

Even against T7/T8 3+, a unit of 6 with EP will be putting out almost 15 unsaved wounds on average. Point for point with EP, they are our best AV despite only being S6.

I know I've done the math. But ugh. I really want to have a good experience with them. SOME. DAY. I hope that day will come soon.

Still, you have to keep pumping them with CP. Is it even worth it at that point? I'll take my "wee bit worse" damage with DDA if I don't have to pump it with CP.

1 unit of destroyers is mandatory when you face some multiwound infantry that is gonna wreck your face fast. Destroyers are very good at killing obliterators for example. While 3 DDA struggle to kill more than 1 unit per turn.

So I know Mephrit isn't ideal for Destroyers, but what do you think of Talent for Annihilation on them? Is it overkill or...?

 skoffs wrote:

• Immortals are still good, but Night Scythes are not. Immortals don't really need Crypteks, but would LOVE some Overlord support.

Every unit that has RP likes cryptek support.

 skoffs wrote:

• Wraiths are decent (keep them naked), but the Destroyer Lord isn't really a great match with them (nor is he really all that worth taking).

You are joking right ? A model for 130 pts with 10" move, can fly, 4++, T6 W6 A4 re-roll hit rolls of 1s, lets (heavy) destroyers re-roll hit rolls of 1 in the shooting phase, who can raise from the dead two times and heals D3 wound every players turn is not worth taking ? Make him the warlord and he can snipe characters, he can get -1 to hit, reduce damage by 1, etc. etc.

 p5freak wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

• Immortals are still good, but Night Scythes are not. Immortals don't really need Crypteks, but would LOVE some Overlord support.

Every unit that has RP likes cryptek support.

 skoffs wrote:

• Wraiths are decent (keep them naked), but the Destroyer Lord isn't really a great match with them (nor is he really all that worth taking).

You are joking right ? A model for 130 pts with 10" move, can fly, 4++, T6 W6 A4 re-roll hit rolls of 1s, lets (heavy) destroyers re-roll hit rolls of 1 in the shooting phase, who can raise from the dead two times and heals D3 wound every players turn is not worth taking ? Make him the warlord and he can snipe characters, he can get -1 to hit, reduce damage by 1, etc. etc.

Agreed. Or give him a Voidblade and Honorable Combatant and he deletes enemy characters.

 p5freak wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

• Immortals are still good, but Night Scythes are not. Immortals don't really need Crypteks, but would LOVE some Overlord support.

Every unit that has RP likes cryptek support.

Likes? Sure. Needs? No. Especially when compared to the guy who can give them MWBD.

 skoffs wrote:
• Wraiths are decent (keep them naked), but the Destroyer Lord isn't really a great match with them (nor is he really all that worth taking).

You are joking right ? A model for 130 pts with 10" move, can fly, 4++, T6 W6 A4 re-roll hit rolls of 1s, lets (heavy) destroyers re-roll hit rolls of 1 in the shooting phase, who can raise from the dead two times and heals D3 wound every players turn is not worth taking ? Make him the warlord and he can snipe characters, he can get -1 to hit, reduce damage by 1, etc. etc.

Well, if you've had success with him, cool. (it's certainly possible to build a decent D.Lord, eg. Ghetto Celestine).
But his buff is pretty sub par (especially compared to a regular Lord), and while he does have more attacks, they're only hitting on 3s compared to an Overlord/CCB's 2s, so he's not exactly the unstopable combat powerhouse he once was.
Most of us tend to rather spend the points on things that can better contribute to the battle (eg. more Destroyers... but not heavies. They're not worth it)

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
The repairtek is pretty easily hidden among the DDAs where no one can drop next to him and not be within an inch of the DDAs. I'd rather have an 85 pt model doing something than a 73 pt model doing nothing. Also with the 10" move the cloaktek has, you can bounce him onto late game objectives once the threats that can get to him are removed and the DDAs either move out or start going down.

I usually wait on my immortals deployments to see what my opponent does. That being the case, deploying the warlord first is irrelevant.

Having the scarabs is by far more valuable to me as they are fast and versatile.

So, whenever I've taken a Sautekh spearhead previously I've always had a Cloak-tek as the HQ (and obviously he's the Warlord for Hyperlogical Strategist), it's the obvious choice as he's the only HQ that has any synergy with the DDAs. I never seriously considered another option till this conversation came up, due to me putting the cheapest possible option in that unfinished list just to see how many points could be available.

Now that it has come up, I think an Overlord with HPS is a much better option for only 2 more points. The Cloak-teks repair ability (like most repair abilities in the game) is crap. It's actually worse than most "Heal D3 wounds" abilities because it replaces living metal. If he begins the turn within 3" of a DDA that has been attacked but not destroyed, it will get 1 extra wound back on average. 1 extra wound often doesn't even makes a difference. It's very unlikely to be the difference between life and death for the DDA, the best you can hope for is that it takes you up a damage bracket.

It is "something", but the cost of that something is that you have a Warlord that dies to a stiff breeze. To suggest that he is safe hiding behind a DDA seems rather optimistic. DDAs are full of holes, and any infantry can see right under them. Anyone bringing snipers will be overjoyed to see such a flimsy warlord with his ass flapping in the breeze, especially one that generates CPs. Any assault units that get to grips with the DDAs will find the Cloak-tek to be a nice cherry on top. His speed does give you the option to grab an objective, but he is presumably then no longer screened by the DDAs (or they would be grabbing it), so his fragility is a liability once again.

The Overlord, by comparison, is a lot harder to kill. While he lacks the ability that might, maybe, have an effect on the game once in a blue moon, he is much more likely to protect your slay the warlord VP, and the bonus CPs- the reason he's in the list in the first place. It will take a lot more sniper fire to bring him down, and he can stand up to a moderate amount of abuse in hand to hand. If someone tries to use a small, fast unit to tag you DDAs in assault (forcing them to move and lose the high power shooting profile), the Overlord can deal with them, or tie them up to stop them doing it again. He doesn't have the speed of the Cloak-tek to grab an objective, but he is much more likely to survive if he has to go out and try.


TLDR: Both the Cloak-tek and the Overlord provide some very minor benefits beyond their primary role of generating CPs. The Overlord however is better at performing this primary role- due to being more likely to survive to do it, whilst also being less of a liability in giving up Slay The Warlord.

I therefore suggest that the oft seen; Cloak-tek + 3x DDA, should be replaced by; Overlord + 3x DDA.

I usually wait on my immortals deployments to see what my opponent does. That being the case, deploying the warlord first is irrelevant.

You're still going to be putting the destroyers in reserve. It will always depend on the game at hand, but generally you should make things in reserve your first drops, rather than deploying things on the board which allows your opponent to make more informed decisions at deployment. If putting those units in reserve costs CPs then you should have your CP refund character on the board first. Anything that the opponent will want to react to in deployment, like fast assault units and main battle tanks (Wraith and DDAs) should be deployed last.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I therefore suggest that the oft seen; Cloak-tek + 3x DDA, should be replaced by; Overlord + 3x DDA.

In a perfect world I'd ideally want to take Imotekh in that spot... but rarely do I ever have a spare 115 points left to upgrade one of my HQs to him...
Perhaps if I were running a Sautekh Battalion, so the Immortals can benefit from him properly...

 skoffs wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

• Immortals are still good, but Night Scythes are not. Immortals don't really need Crypteks, but would LOVE some Overlord support.

Every unit that has RP likes cryptek support.

Likes? Sure. Needs? No. Especially when compared to the guy who can give them MWBD.

RP is free, you should take advantage of it. If you run a battalion you need 2 HQs anyway, one cryptek, one overlord.

 skoffs wrote:
Well, if you've had success with him, cool. (it's certainly possible to build a decent D.Lord, eg. Ghetto Celestine).
But his buff is pretty sub par (especially compared to a regular Lord), and while he does have more attacks, they're only hitting on 3s compared to an Overlord/CCB's 2s, so he's not exactly the unstopable combat powerhouse he once was.
Most of us tend to rather spend the points on things that can better contribute to the battle (eg. more Destroyers... but not heavies. They're not worth it)

A decent destroyer lord cant contribute to the battle ?

 p5freak wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

• Immortals are still good, but Night Scythes are not. Immortals don't really need Crypteks, but would LOVE some Overlord support.

Every unit that has RP likes cryptek support.

Likes? Sure. Needs? No. Especially when compared to the guy who can give them MWBD.

RP is free, you should take advantage of it. If you run a battalion you need 2 HQs anyway, one cryptek, one overlord.

 skoffs wrote:
Well, if you've had success with him, cool. (it's certainly possible to build a decent D.Lord, eg. Ghetto Celestine).
But his buff is pretty sub par (especially compared to a regular Lord), and while he does have more attacks, they're only hitting on 3s compared to an Overlord/CCB's 2s, so he's not exactly the unstopable combat powerhouse he once was.
Most of us tend to rather spend the points on things that can better contribute to the battle (eg. more Destroyers... but not heavies. They're not worth it)

A decent destroyer lord cant contribute to the battle ?

I believe he is more speaking to the character's buff utility. With the reroll 1s to hit, he's nearly as good as an OL. But I find that keeping our HQs cheap seems to be the way to go. Let the army do the heavy lifting with buff utility from characters.

I'm trying to figure out a way in most of my lists to throw a Basic Lord in my Phalanxes, so they'll be fearless, with a 5++, hitting on 2s, coming back on 4s and rerolling 1s to wound

 p5freak wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
• Immortals are still good, but Night Scythes are not. Immortals don't really need Crypteks, but would LOVE some Overlord support.

Every unit that has RP likes cryptek support.

Likes? Sure. Needs? No. Especially when compared to the guy who can give them MWBD.

RP is free, you should take advantage of it. If you run a battalion you need 2 HQs anyway, one cryptek, one overlord.

That's just the thing: it's free.
You don't need to pay for it, everyone already has it. Yeah, you could increase it, but it's not really worth the investment on the unit in question (Immortals). They're perfectly capable of fending for themselves in cover. Either that or they get wiped out before they even get a chance to roll for RP (which, if you're playing against an experienced opponent, is more than likely what will happen.)
If we're talking a Battalion that includes three units of Tesla Immortals, the best HQ you can support them with would be two Overlords so you can MWBD all three of them (with Phaeron's Will strat). Granted, if this Battalion includes Destroyers, then throwing in a Cryptek would be worth it, but that's not what the above comments were about. (Alternatively, a single Lord would help all of the above as well, but wouldn't be as recommended.)

 skoffs wrote:
Well, if you've had success with him, cool. (it's certainly possible to build a decent D.Lord, eg. Ghetto Celestine).
But his buff is pretty sub par (especially compared to a regular Lord), and while he does have more attacks, they're only hitting on 3s compared to an Overlord/CCB's 2s, so he's not exactly the unstopable combat powerhouse he once was.
Most of us tend to rather spend the points on things that can better contribute to the battle (eg. more Destroyers... but not heavies. They're not worth it)

A decent destroyer lord cant contribute to the battle ?

... I never said he couldn't.

 p5freak wrote:


RP is free, you should take advantage of it. If you run a battalion you need 2 HQs anyway, one cryptek, one overlord.


A decent destroyer lord cant contribute to the battle ?

Who's better out of a Cryptek and an Overlord does seem kinda irrelevant when you'll usually be taking both I agree. MWBD is a much more powerful ability than Technomancer though, unless you're taking 20 man Warrior blobs, then I'd say the Cryptek is slightly more important.

I took a Destroyer Lord in several games as the HQ for a Nephrek outrider detachment tagged onto a Sautekh battalion. Any other HQ would be little more than a tax, so I figured I should have one that actually did something. It still makes sense in that scenario, but I was fairly disappointed with him. Necron HQs are just lame in hand to hand. It's not worth the cost of a relic and a WL trait to make them serviceable. I think the Warscythe is kind of a trap. You're not going to be slicing through tanks, or enemy HQs with any reliability. Its better to take the Staff of Light and hunt small MEQ units.

If we're talking a Battalion that includes three units of Tesla Immortals, the best HQ you can support them with would be two Overlords so you can MWBD all three of them (with Phaeron's Will strat).

I'm coming round to this way of thinking, but I think you're being a little too harsh on the Cryptek. If someone really wants to get rid of an Immortal unit they probably will, denying RP, but I've found that people do still chip away at my Immortals when there's nothing better to do. I get use out of the Technomancer ability quite regularly.


edit: Poor Crypteks, they've been taking a hammering for the last page or so lol.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Necronplayer wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Yeah, Destroyers seems so far above everything else in the codex its kinda silly.

Uhuh....... 4th game with destroyers was them doing their best work. Which was barelly making back they points in FIVE shooting phases. And I spend 3 CP on them. I don't get it. Guess what - my opponent made his hive guard pts back in 1 phase with the double shoot. Like I don't know what to shoot with them. T5-6 is a rare sight for me. Everything is either T3,T4,T7 or T8. In 5 games against different opponents I got only 1 T5-T6 = obliterators (hive guard don't count as they're unshootable for most of the game).

BTW, still almost no cases where Mephrit could've done anything because people have invuls and where I use Nephrekh about 8 times per game.

Even against T7/T8 3+, a unit of 6 with EP will be putting out almost 15 unsaved wounds on average. Point for point with EP, they are our best AV despite only being S6.

I know I've done the math. But ugh. I really want to have a good experience with them. SOME. DAY. I hope that day will come soon.

Still, you have to keep pumping them with CP. Is it even worth it at that point? I'll take my "wee bit worse" damage with DDA if I don't have to pump it with CP.

Make sure you run the numbers beforehand so that you know if eg 5 destroyers need EP to take down half a LRBT, or if MWBD wil do, at least make sure you know the gist of it. (Im sure you already do), but its worth mentioning.

I'm not saying Crypteks are in and of themselves bad,
I'm saying, in the context that was originally quoted (coming out of Night Scythes with Immortals) they would not be the best choice.
My suggestion of taking Overlords to accompany them instead was just given as a recommendation for the more efficient HQ to pair them with.
You could stick a Cryptek with them, yes. Or a Lord. But the Overlord tends to be the best choice. Not the only choice. Just the most efficient.

 skoffs wrote:
I'm not saying Crypteks are in and of themselves bad,
I'm saying, in the context that was originally quoted (coming out of Night Scythes with Immortals) they would not be the best choice.
My suggestion of taking Overlords to accompany them instead was just given as a recommendation for the more efficient HQ to pair them with.
You could stick a Cryptek with them, yes. Or a Lord. But the Overlord tends to be the best choice. Not the only choice. Just the most efficient.

I'm also now thinking that, in a teleporting Nephrek Tesla Immortals list, it's best to have the Veil on an overlord, and give the Cryptek a cloak. Previously I was going with a Veil-tek, and a CCB.

The Veil-tek option means that units arriving from reserve will benefit from his aura right away, but it may be more beneficial to have the Overlord in position ready for MWBD the following turn. Also, CCBs are expensive.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

Spoiler:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
The repairtek is pretty easily hidden among the DDAs where no one can drop next to him and not be within an inch of the DDAs. I'd rather have an 85 pt model doing something than a 73 pt model doing nothing. Also with the 10" move the cloaktek has, you can bounce him onto late game objectives once the threats that can get to him are removed and the DDAs either move out or start going down.

I usually wait on my immortals deployments to see what my opponent does. That being the case, deploying the warlord first is irrelevant.

Having the scarabs is by far more valuable to me as they are fast and versatile.

So, whenever I've taken a Sautekh spearhead previously I've always had a Cloak-tek as the HQ (and obviously he's the Warlord for Hyperlogical Strategist), it's the obvious choice as he's the only HQ that has any synergy with the DDAs. I never seriously considered another option till this conversation came up, due to me putting the cheapest possible option in that unfinished list just to see how many points could be available.

Now that it has come up, I think an Overlord with HPS is a much better option for only 2 more points. The Cloak-teks repair ability (like most repair abilities in the game) is crap. It's actually worse than most "Heal D3 wounds" abilities because it replaces living metal. If he begins the turn within 3" of a DDA that has been attacked but not destroyed, it will get 1 extra wound back on average. 1 extra wound often doesn't even makes a difference. It's very unlikely to be the difference between life and death for the DDA, the best you can hope for is that it takes you up a damage bracket.

It is "something", but the cost of that something is that you have a Warlord that dies to a stiff breeze. To suggest that he is safe hiding behind a DDA seems rather optimistic. DDAs are full of holes, and any infantry can see right under them. Anyone bringing snipers will be overjoyed to see such a flimsy warlord with his ass flapping in the breeze, especially one that generates CPs. Any assault units that get to grips with the DDAs will find the Cloak-tek to be a nice cherry on top. His speed does give you the option to grab an objective, but he is presumably then no longer screened by the DDAs (or they would be grabbing it), so his fragility is a liability once again.

The Overlord, by comparison, is a lot harder to kill. While he lacks the ability that might, maybe, have an effect on the game once in a blue moon, he is much more likely to protect your slay the warlord VP, and the bonus CPs- the reason he's in the list in the first place. It will take a lot more sniper fire to bring him down, and he can stand up to a moderate amount of abuse in hand to hand. If someone tries to use a small, fast unit to tag you DDAs in assault (forcing them to move and lose the high power shooting profile), the Overlord can deal with them, or tie them up to stop them doing it again. He doesn't have the speed of the Cloak-tek to grab an objective, but he is much more likely to survive if he has to go out and try.


TLDR: Both the Cloak-tek and the Overlord provide some very minor benefits beyond their primary role of generating CPs. The Overlord however is better at performing this primary role- due to being more likely to survive to do it, whilst also being less of a liability in giving up Slay The Warlord.

I therefore suggest that the oft seen; Cloak-tek + 3x DDA, should be replaced by; Overlord + 3x DDA.

I usually wait on my immortals deployments to see what my opponent does. That being the case, deploying the warlord first is irrelevant.

You're still going to be putting the destroyers in reserve. It will always depend on the game at hand, but generally you should make things in reserve your first drops, rather than deploying things on the board which allows your opponent to make more informed decisions at deployment. If putting those units in reserve costs CPs then you should have your CP refund character on the board first. Anything that the opponent will want to react to in deployment, like fast assault units and main battle tanks (Wraith and DDAs) should be deployed last.

Maybe it's a case of differing local metas. I rarely face snipers and when I do, it's easy enough to stick the cryptek behind a wall where they can't do anything to him. Of far more concern is things like coldstar commanders packing fusion, in which case the overlord is almost as dead as the cryptek. Of the 30 or so games I've played with them, I think I've had a DDA assaulted once, maybe twice. I screen them well enough that foot sloggers simply aren't going to get to them, and most things that can go over the screens either don't want to assault, or are easily dealt with by sixty flayer shots. Granted, I have yet to face a custodes list, but I think they are still quite managable.

If I was constantly losing my cryptek, I would agree with you, but I'm not. I also play ITC missions primarily so there is less incentive to go after the warlord unless they take the Old School secondaries which is not ideal.

As far as deployment, I get that line of thinking, and that is how I used to approach it, but I've found a few things after running this list for the last month or two:

1) I usually have fewer drops than my opponent, so they are able to keep their key units back until I'm done deploying anyway.

2) My DDAs are going down where they have the best LOS to the rest of the board, period. I know this, my opponent (usually) knows this. With the footprint they have, this usually only leaves one, maybe two possible locations for them so there is little point in trying to be clever about placing them. Likewise, I WANT them to shoot at the wraiths, which also have the mobility to pretty much get wherever I want them in a couple of turns, so i'm not trying to hide them. Often by deploying these units first, I'm forcing my opponent into deploying where I want them, rather than reacting to what they want to do.

3) Any player worth his/her salt will respect what the immortals can do and not knowing whether or not I'm deepstriking with them is a huge question mark. This means they have to prepare for both possibilities as they place units. This means possible mistakes or spreading themselves too thin. Remember, you don't HAVE to deepstrike them, and it's often more advantageous to deploy them on the board. If you simply throw them into reserves as the first few drops, you are now locked into this, and can miss opportunities.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
I'm not saying Crypteks are in and of themselves bad,
I'm saying, in the context that was originally quoted (coming out of Night Scythes with Immortals) they would not be the best choice.
My suggestion of taking Overlords to accompany them instead was just given as a recommendation for the more efficient HQ to pair them with.
You could stick a Cryptek with them, yes. Or a Lord. But the Overlord tends to be the best choice. Not the only choice. Just the most efficient.

I'm also now thinking that, in a teleporting Nephrek Tesla Immortals list, it's best to have the Veil on an overlord, and give the Cryptek a cloak. Previously I was going with a Veil-tek, and a CCB.

The Veil-tek option means that units arriving from reserve will benefit from his aura right away, but it may be more beneficial to have the Overlord in position ready for MWBD the following turn. Also, CCBs are expensive.

Nah, giving a Cryptek the Veil still isn't a bad idea if he's a Chrono carrier. That way he can jump up and the guys arriving turn 2 can benefit from his 5++.
I'm thinking about having a Chrono-tek Veil up 6 Destroyers turn 1, use Extermination Protocols, then having another 6 arrive turn 2 within his radius and using EP again... my issue is trying to figure out what to support the first group with (Wraiths? Tomb Blades?)

 Maelstrom808 wrote:


3) Any player worth his/her salt will respect what the immortals can do and not knowing whether or not I'm deepstriking with them is a huge question mark. This means they have to prepare for both possibilities as they place units. This means possible mistakes or spreading themselves too thin. Remember, you don't HAVE to deepstrike them, and it's often more advantageous to deploy them on the board. If you simply throw them into reserves as the first few drops, you are now locked into this, and can miss opportunities.

While I find your other points regarding deployment somewhat questionable, this does make sense. Deepstriking Destroyers is almost always the best choice, but the Immortals can go either way, and not knowing could throw the opponent off as they try to plan for both possibilities.

Of far more concern is things like coldstar commanders packing fusion, in which case the overlord is almost as dead as the cryptek

Actually, the Coldstar has about a 50/50 chance of popping the Overlord, whereas the Cryptek dies 3 times over. The difference in durability is kinda massive. If I'm the Tau player, 50/50 is pretty off putting. How often is the repair ability making a difference for you?

Granted, I have yet to face a custodes list, but I think they are still quite managable.

I wouldn't be so sure, they're rather infuriating. Mostly because the game is often decided by whether or not they pass their invuls. You got lucky on your 4++? guess I'm dead then. I've found self destructing scarabs very useful for tidying up Bike captains who didn't quite die when they were supposed to.

Doctoralex wrote:
So I know Mephrit isn't ideal for Destroyers, but what do you think of Talent for Annihilation on them? Is it overkill or...?

With only Extermination protocols you are getting 8.33 wounds on average with 6 destroyers to a hive tyrant. If the Hive Tyrant has the -1 to hit relic or shroud it drops to 6.67
With talent for annihilation and extermination protocols you are looking at 10.86 wounds on average to a Hive Tyrant with a sq of 6 Destroyers.
With methodical destruction and extermination protocols you are looking at 11.11 wounds to a Hive Tyrant with a sq of 6.
With no strategems and a 6 man sq of destroyers just using the base reroll 1's for the unit they are doing 4.67 to HIve Tyrant or 3.5 with -1 relic

A station DDA high power does 2.72 wounds to a Hive Tyrant, or 2.04 if it has -1 to hit buff.

So if you use your Stratgems and focus fire, you should be able to drop a Flyrant in 1 round if you are running 2 destroyer squads and 1 doomsday ark at a minimum.
Use the gauss flayers and your tesla immortals to focus down the Genestealers.
Send your scarabs into his Hive Guard. Use mortal wound suicide stratagem on them, or just tie them up in combat.

 skoffs wrote:


Nah, giving a Cryptek the Veil still isn't a bad idea if he's a Chrono carrier. That way he can jump up and the guys arriving turn 2 can benefit from his 5++.
I'm thinking about having a Chrono-tek Veil up 6 Destroyers turn 1, use Extermination Protocols, then having another 6 arrive turn 2 within his radius and using EP again... my issue is trying to figure out what to support the first group with (Wraiths? Tomb Blades?)

The Tomb blades will add more firepower, but not do much to protect the Destroyers, other than possibly eliminating threats.

The Wraith probably won't kill anything turn 1, but may deter people from getting close to the Destroyers.

Much of a muchness really.

I'm surprised chronoteks in a Nephrek outrider isn't more popular. The 5++ and 50% better RP adds a lot to a couple of 300 pt squads. Plus as Nephrek, he can just run alongside the destroyers and keep up as long as they don't advance too. I'd run it as Nephrek not only for the chronotek, but also for the one squad of wraith's 20-30" charge.