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How about a tomb blade wing with the DLord? Run 2*6 cheapo tomb blades perhaps mephrit for that nice AP -1, or novokh even, really putting money behind the cc threat, season with 6 scarabs perhaps to make the novokh outrider complete.

One six blade squad with particle beamers shoots and charges to kill 8-9 guardsmen, letting morale deal with rest.

DLord charges first, eating the overwatch with T6 vs S3, and supreme healing in both turns. Throws his attacks where the blades hot below average.

The group is very fast, can dart up fast to shift the dynamic of the battle

The problem with the dlord still stands. His buff only effects other destroyers, I don't find anything wrong with him myself in fun games or fluff based armies (All destroyer, all the time! Lists) but competitive situations there are better hq choices.

Compare a dlord to ccb, the ccb gives better support to a necron army in pretty much all situations, for 30 extra points. Plus while the dlord can be super hard to kill with Regen and get back up strat compare it to ccb which can get 4++ save, quantum shielding, and the mortal wound on a 4+ for a pseudo extra attack, I don't see the dlord worth saving 30 pts.

Yeah the buff I'd out the window regardless.

The CCB though doesn't really need the speed alot of the time, if he is buffing infantry units with 12" range.

torblind wrote:
How about a tomb blade wing with the DLord? Run 2*6 cheapo tomb blades perhaps mephrit for that nice AP -1, or novokh even, really putting money behind the cc threat, season with 6 scarabs perhaps to make the novokh outrider complete.

Again, why bother with a D.Lord at that point? He doesn't help the TBs at all.
If it's to provide CC threat, Wraiths will more or less do the same job at a similar price point.

 skoffs wrote:

torblind wrote:
How about a tomb blade wing with the DLord? Run 2*6 cheapo tomb blades perhaps mephrit for that nice AP -1, or novokh even, really putting money behind the cc threat, season with 6 scarabs perhaps to make the novokh outrider complete.

Again, why bother with a D.Lord at that point? He doesn't help the TBs at all.
If it's to provide CC threat, Wraiths will more or less do the same job at a similar price point.

Nothing helps the TBs (bar a tag-along do-no-good cryptek)

There's a difference though, the wraiths are fire magnets. The DLord is not, he's untouchable. Enemy has to start digging through the blades to get to him.

It's likely he will focus on your DDAs, your wraiths elsewhere, your scarab screen, or your advancing immortals

This small relatively cheap combat group offers flexibility, getting where its needed and threaten small and medium T targets with both shooting and melee

Don't think its competitive, but perhaps surprisingly durable for LFGS games

Played my Nids against a 3x Tesseract Vault Deceiver trick list using ITC mission rules this weekend. We played 3 full turns before we timed out. Nids won 16-13. The T Vault is good for Mortal wounds and can do some nasty alpha strike, but after turn 2 when they were damaged and degrading he started having trouble. Not sure if it would be a viable list.

Now I would be interested in trying 3x Transcendent C'tan and running those guys with some Destroyers and Tesla immortals. Anyone tried the Trans C'tan yet?

torblind wrote:

There's a difference though, the wraiths are fire magnets. The DLord is not, he's untouchable. Enemy has to start digging through the blades to get to him.

You're correct that the D. Lord is basically untouchable until the Tomb Blades are dead. But I'm not seeing how that's a point in his favour, as it means you're getting nothing out of his enhanced durability.

It's like hiding a distraction carnifex behind your glass cannons.

 vipoid wrote:

torblind wrote:

There's a difference though, the wraiths are fire magnets. The DLord is not, he's untouchable. Enemy has to start digging through the blades to get to him.

You're correct that the D. Lord is basically untouchable until the Tomb Blades are dead. But I'm not seeing how that's a point in his favour, as it means you're getting nothing out of his enhanced durability.

It's like hiding a distraction carnifex behind your glass cannons.

Remember he does the occasional charge, eats 1-2 DMG from overwatch and when they hit back, but conveniently getting 4w back on average each turn. Perfect role for his regeneration.

And your enemy will likely grasp that he's not killy enough to warrant digging through all those tomb blades



Automatically Appended Next Post:
You could throw in a couple of shield vanes and some invuo saves for good measure too, for scrap points left over

torblind wrote:
And your enemy will likely grasp that he's not killy enough to warrant digging through all those tomb blades

Unfortunately this is also reason enough for most of us to warrant not taking him in the first place...

I think they really f-ed up his gameplay design.
I wonder if there's any way for GW to be able to fix him? (eg. in Chapter Approved)

Maybe 3x9 Tomb Blades list will work? I have only 12 tomb blades but if anyone tried i would be happy to hear some feedback before building another 16 tomb blades

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Maybe 3x9 Tomb Blades list will work? I have only 12 tomb blades but if anyone tried i would be happy to hear some feedback before building another 16 tomb blades

Well my idea was to have it cheap enough that the rest of your army will always the main threat, allowing this flanking to pass relatively peacefully on his side to harass where needed and become a late game problem for him

 skoffs wrote:

Shadar_Logoth wrote:

You claimed there was a way to use it other than buffing Destroyers. I'm asking you once again to substantiate that.

I think he's made it pretty clear that it wasn't the aura itself that makes the DLord potentially viable, its other things he does.

Yes, but are those other things he does worth it?
With a Warscythe and Phylactery/Casket (arguably his best loadout) he's 131 points, right?
What's he doing for those 131 points? Not buffing Destroyers, that's a waste of time compared to what they can do with their strat.
So he's supposed to be getting into combat, right?
Okay, well a couple of Wraiths would be 20 points cheaper. Can he do a better job in combat than a couple Wraiths?
4 S7 AP-4 D2 attacks w/ T6 6W 4++ (rr1th, regains wounds, might get back up once a game)
6 S6 AP-2 D2 attacks w/ T5 6W 3++ (can charge after advancing/falling back and get RP with strats)

The thing he does is act independently compared to the rest of the force.

There is value there. Obviously we try and get as many CP for this army as we can, so that means we can't be bothering with taxes. If you're looking at just adding some squads of Wraiths and Destroyers, the Destroyer Lord is awesome because he fulfills any of those HQ requirements for the units that are also more independent. If you were to add something like a Lord or Overlord or Cryptek, they're not going to do much for the detachment.

Take him strictly in a Novokh/Nephrekh Outrider and use him like an extra squad of Wraiths.

 skoffs wrote:

torblind wrote:
How about a tomb blade wing with the DLord? Run 2*6 cheapo tomb blades perhaps mephrit for that nice AP -1, or novokh even, really putting money behind the cc threat, season with 6 scarabs perhaps to make the novokh outrider complete.

Again, why bother with a D.Lord at that point? He doesn't help the TBs at all.
If it's to provide CC threat, Wraiths will more or less do the same job at a similar price point.

I'm not sure if it's fair to compare him to Wraiths. The DLord fills a prereq slot. The Wraiths do not.

The fairest comparison is the CCB. I tend to lean more towards the CCB for competitive play, but I do think the two are pretty close. Thee CCB's versatility with MWBD just wins out.

That being said I'm still thinking one running with a a bunch of Destroyers is a reasonable investment.

Something like this:



That's about 1500 points depending on upgrades. I would likely give him a Res Orb in the configuration, and probably an upgraded Staff of Light depending on which Dynasty you are running.

Now you are potentially give 18 Ds and 9 HDs reroll 1's to wounds. I haven'y hammered it out yet but my intuition tells me you will be getting a considerable amount of mileage out of it at that point, and it won't cost you any CP to do so.

Also, while he's not shooting or chopping in general, he's still there to run up and punch anything in the face if it gets too close. Mephrit can give his staff 18" range as well, which works pretty well with the D's range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i guess what I'm working around to is we already know Destroyers are good. Is spending one your required HQ slots on a unit that does nothing but buff them and provide some deterrent to CC threats to them really that unreasonable?

The more I think about it the more I'm starting to understand the logic in his design.

Of course, this is all sticking with the notion that you need several units of Ds and/or HDs to get his full potential. Otherwise you are generally better off with and Overlord.

JNAProductions wrote:
*Cough cough Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike cough cough*

Can you tell me where i find the rule that the shield captain on jetbike can rise from the dead twice and regenerate D3 wounds on every players turn ?

 p5freak wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:
*Cough cough Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike cough cough*

Can you tell me where i find the rule that the shield captain on jetbike can rise from the dead twice and regenerate D3 wounds on every players turn ?

No. But it has better shooting, a better armor save, better CC, can get a better invuln and reroll failed charges...

So yes, if your criteria for good is solely "Can resurrect and regenerate wounds" then no, the Shield Captain isn't good. But when you compare what they can actually do...

 JNAProductions wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:
*Cough cough Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike cough cough*

Can you tell me where i find the rule that the shield captain on jetbike can rise from the dead twice and regenerate D3 wounds on every players turn ?

No. But it has better shooting, a better armor save, better CC, can get a better invuln and reroll failed charges...

So yes, if your criteria for good is solely "Can resurrect and regenerate wounds" then no, the Shield Captain isn't good. But when you compare what they can actually do...

Can you also find me ONE person that thinks the Custodes Bikers are fairly priced?

And can you guys drop this now? Seriously.

Noooooo. Definitely not. You want Destroyers as far away as you can from things that can charge them. While Talent For Annihilation is alright for Destroyers, Mephrit's Dynasty code is one of the more useless for them.

I couldn't disagree with this statement more. In fact, outside of Sautekh, it's the only one they could reasonably get some mileage out of.

Nihilahk? Completely and truly useless. Novokh? Helps the DLord, not so much the Ds. Nephrek? Once in a blue moon situational at best.

So its' basically Sautekh to occasionally make the make them a little faster at the expense of accuracy, or Mephrit. And, yes, while there is some diminishing returns better AP -3 and AP -4, 3+ saves and 4+ saves in cover are still pretty ubiquitous in this game, and in most cases are not accompanied by a ++.

 Dynas wrote:
Played my Nids against a 3x Tesseract Vault Deceiver trick list using ITC mission rules this weekend. We played 3 full turns before we timed out. Nids won 16-13. The T Vault is good for Mortal wounds and can do some nasty alpha strike, but after turn 2 when they were damaged and degrading he started having trouble. Not sure if it would be a viable list.

Now I would be interested in trying 3x Transcendent C'tan and running those guys with some Destroyers and Tesla immortals. Anyone tried the Trans C'tan yet?

I played with one at a local tourney this last weekend. Transcendent Ctan and Deceiver are nasty together, the mortal wound output is amazing and their threat level in cc is high enough that most things (other than Gman himself) will want nothing to do with them. You do have to watch for swarm tarpit units and other elite stuff that can hurt a lot, but I rolled in all my games for the traits and got +1 to saving throws twice. I really wish we had more control over our abilities, a 3++ cast both powers each turn would be great.

However I got

Game 1 : 3++, Regen wounds at the beginning of your turn, and it never got targeted once.
Game 2 : double 1's so I only got "use both powers" which is still damn nice
Game 3 : 3++ and ignore cover, but this game this guy got into it with a bunch of death guard and it took a chaos Lord, 3 sorcerers, and 4 death guard men to kill it in cc, and it still ended up killing the 4 men and the Lord before dying. Unfortunately no explosion even with reroll
...

Want to try either deciver, nightbringer, and transcendent or deciver, transcendent, vault but I need more bits to get myself a vault.

COLD CASH wrote:

So Tesla worked well against marines without any AP was this just due to the volume of saves they had to make?



Yeh and the high str makes quite a difference, rolling 18 2+ cover saves per 6 TB's netted me 4 wounds or 2 dead primaris. I forgot to use the solar pulse strat to negate his cover save.
But i was impressed with the basic efficiency when i negated his -1 with method D.

TB and immortals did an excellent job, despite my crap positioning and continual mistakes(but it was good to make them, coming from DG i dont really need to worry about positioning because they are so tough and i use a grinding approach.) Learning a more surgical playstyle, watching distances and being very particular when and were i bring my forces on is obviously needed with crons since they are made of china!


Ohh and despite the drubbing i really enjoyed them, the surgical style while mentally consuming was also really fun and reminded me of 2nd edition when i last used to play and was pro!
Im no longer consumed with winning and prefer to put up a good fight and win or lose have fun.
But its nice to have to make difficult strategic calls again(i used to run Wolves) back in the day and every move and every placement needed to be perfect. Crons gave me a similiar feeling last week.

4 wounds out of 18 is that good? I might be just wanting too much, how did the immortals do? Really can’t decide between warriors
Or immortals against marines then tesla or gauss I seem to just like having more troops and it’s easier to give the buffs to blobs
Than immortals I think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shadar_Logoth wrote:

Curious79 wrote:
I actually like the Monolith and what can now be done
With certain strats I just can’t get it to survive long enough
To do any cool stuff Plasma and Lascannon Spam
Monolith goes boom most of the time first round of shooting
Anybody had success with it yet?

I think Mephrit is the way to go to unlock their potential. The buffs really synergize with what they do, which is drop in close and then use their portals to drop other units in closer.

I think you really need two, though, which pretty much means 1850 to 2k.

I'm playing with a list that starts like this:

2xMono
2x10 Gauss Immortals
1x10 WS Lychguard

I figure with 2 Monos, Enhanced Invasion Beams, and Emergency Invasion Beams you can feel pretty confident getting 3 units on the board before both Monos go poof. The Gauss Immortals make sense because with Meph you are bringing 40 S5 AP -4 shots to bear, and the WS Lychguard just always screamed to me to be a unit that needs some Mono love. Of course, I'm also playing this with the assumption that the Mono (and NS) will get errata'd soon to allow charges out of the invasion beams. All the testers I've spoken too confirm that was the intention.

To go with that I'm thinking something along the lines of CCB, DLord, or Cloaktek to bolt up the board and provide assistance, escorted my Destroyers, Wraiths, or TPs.

One of the best things the Mono potentially has going for it its an RP saver. Use them to help hide that one dude in each squad out of LOS.

Yeah it annoys me that we have to take two or three just to transport in troops while I am ranting I hate how we have to find crazy ways to get an
HQ up there or spend CP hopefully that will change
I am pretty sure you can charge after these strats as there at the beginning of the movement phase.
Also some sau patrol or spearhead to try reclaim the CP as this list will eat them up

i

Shadar_Logoth wrote:

 Cmdr_Sune wrote:
Sadly Szeras buff disappears when veiled and as torblind said turn 1 deep strike outside of deployment zone is not possible anymore. Szeras doesn't really bring anything to that list.

You could of course wait until turn 2 with the veil and deep strike and use turn 1 to clear and screens.

I didn't word it well but what I meant to say is Szeras buffs them turn 1 and then on turn 2 they drop in behind the DSed Flayed Ones.

Why would Szeras buff disappear when veiled? I'm not aware of anyone who plays it that way, nor any rule that would cause you to interpret it as such.

Also, even outside of buffing the 20 Warriors he has 5 other units of Immortals to buff, both their RP and with his augmentation. He also fills the requisite third HQ slot. Not sure how you could interpret that as not bringing anything to the list.

It's in a FAQ or somewhere that if you remove something from the battlefield and set it up again all status effects such as buffs disappear. So for example MWBD does not work on a veiled unit and I think that this also affects "permanent" buffs.

From the Warhammer 40,000 Main Rulebook FAQ:

Q: If you use a Stratagem to remove a model from the battlefield and set it up again, does the model retain any persistent effects (for example, a bonus to one of its characteristics as a result of an ability)?

A: No.

What constitutes a 'persistent effect' is best discussed in another forum.

I will once again point out that MWBD is not a persistent effect as it has a built in end of duration. Szeras buff and orikan transformations are persistent effects. Will also point out again that the FAQ entry is specifically for strategems and is limiter for tide of traitors. Using veil on anything that has been MWBD will not remove the buff.

Agreed with folks ignoring Mepherit. 20x Warriors, MWBD, Talent for Annihilation, veiled with Criptec, is no joke. 40 S4 -2, with +1 to hit and 6s causing additional rolls. Then then have to be shifted, placed in cover and that requires volume of shots and decent AP

Azuza001 wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
Played my Nids against a 3x Tesseract Vault Deceiver trick list using ITC mission rules this weekend. We played 3 full turns before we timed out. Nids won 16-13. The T Vault is good for Mortal wounds and can do some nasty alpha strike, but after turn 2 when they were damaged and degrading he started having trouble. Not sure if it would be a viable list.

Now I would be interested in trying 3x Transcendent C'tan and running those guys with some Destroyers and Tesla immortals. Anyone tried the Trans C'tan yet?

I played with one at a local tourney this last weekend. Transcendent Ctan and Deceiver are nasty together, the mortal wound output is amazing and their threat level in cc is high enough that most things (other than Gman himself) will want nothing to do with them. You do have to watch for swarm tarpit units and other elite stuff that can hurt a lot, but I rolled in all my games for the traits and got +1 to saving throws twice. I really wish we had more control over our abilities, a 3++ cast both powers each turn would be great.

However I got

Game 1 : 3++, Regen wounds at the beginning of your turn, and it never got targeted once.
Game 2 : double 1's so I only got "use both powers" which is still damn nice
Game 3 : 3++ and ignore cover, but this game this guy got into it with a bunch of death guard and it took a chaos Lord, 3 sorcerers, and 4 death guard men to kill it in cc, and it still ended up killing the 4 men and the Lord before dying. Unfortunately no explosion even with reroll
...

Want to try either deciver, nightbringer, and transcendent or deciver, transcendent, vault but I need more bits to get myself a vault.

love the CTan it’s just I am rubbish with them would love to open it up to the forum if peepz are up for to try and get a solid list
With one or two CTan and the combinations that they bring and any tactics that work for each especially against marines I think 1500 is prob too low to include one
So 1850+


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TommyBoy13 wrote:
Agreed with folks ignoring Mepherit. 20x Warriors, MWBD, Talent for Annihilation, veiled with Criptec, is no joke. 40 S4 -2, with +1 to hit and 6s causing additional rolls. Then then have to be shifted, placed in cover and that requires volume of shots and decent AP

I like it!!! You would need to be mindful of them being charged the following turn so postioning
Would be really important and having a Counter charge unit near by any suggestions for the support unit
and for the best targets for the warriors to go for?

 TommyBoy13 wrote:
Agreed with folks ignoring Mepherit. 20x Warriors, MWBD, Talent for Annihilation, veiled with Criptec, is no joke. 40 S4 -2, with +1 to hit and 6s causing additional rolls. Then then have to be shifted, placed in cover and that requires volume of shots and decent AP

Mephrit is great for Warriors. The reason people are down on Mephrit is that it isn't a good fit for a lot of other units. If you are running 20 man warrior blobs then you really should be Mephrit, if you have 3x 10 Tesla Immortals it's probably not the best choice.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

Mephrit is great for Warriors. The reason people are down on Mephrit is that it isn't a good fit for a lot of other units. If you are running 20 man warrior blobs then you really should be Mephrit, if you have 3x 10 Tesla Immortals it's probably not the best choice.

Yes, its great to have your 20 warriors within 12" of the enemy, he can easily charge them, disabling their shooting, warriors are great in melee with 1 attack at S4 AP0 D1. Your strat is only good for shooting at one enemy unit, mephrit is useless, except for the warlord trait, which is great on the CCB with tesla.

Inevitableq wrote:
I will once again point out that MWBD is not a persistent effect as it has a built in end of duration. Szeras buff and orikan transformations are persistent effects. Will also point out again that the FAQ entry is specifically for strategems and is limiter for tide of traitors. Using veil on anything that has been MWBD will not remove the buff.

Szeras's buff says "for the rest of the battle." I see nothing in the FAQ that implies that would no longer work.

I'll continue to play it that way and simply not play with anyone that wouldn't, unless I see a rule that specifically delineates his buff not working with a Veiled unit. That seems pretty absurd to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yes, its great to have your 20 warriors within 12" of the enemy, he can easily charge them, disabling their shooting, warriors are great in melee with 1 attack at S4 AP0 D1. Your strat is only good for shooting at one enemy unit, mephrit is useless, except for the warlord trait, which is great on the CCB with tesla.

Pet peeve of mine, but that's not what the word "useless" means. The word simply does not mean "not good enough in my eyes." Useless means "of absolutely no use."

For instance, Nihilahk is truly useless for Destroyers. The buff literally does nothing for them.

On the other hand, buffing 20 Warriors with AP -1 exactly within their rapid fire range is not useless. Is it potentially risky? Sure. Can you mitigate that risk if you have a fully functioning frontal lobe? Absolutely. Necron's have no shortage of units like FOs, TPs, Scarab and C'Tans that can crush in CC and keep your shooty mens alive, even if they are close to the enemy.

Also, 20 Meph warriors with TA and MWBD can knock out almost 13 MEq, on average, in one salvo. You should be able to blow away anything that could potentially threaten you in CC.

Shadar_Logoth wrote:

Szeras's buff says "for the rest of the battle." I see nothing in the FAQ that implies that would no longer work.

I'll continue to play it that way and simply not play with anyone that wouldn't, unless I see a rule that specifically delineates his buff not working with a Veiled unit. That seems pretty absurd to me.

Ghaz already quoted from the FAQs, scroll up a little.

Shadar_Logoth wrote:

Pet peeve of mine, but that's not what the word "useless" means. The word simply does not mean "not good enough in my eyes." Useless means "of absolutely no use."

Ok, its very little use.

Shadar_Logoth wrote:

Also, 20 Meph warriors with TA and MWBD can knock out almost 13 MEq, on average, in one salvo. You should be able to blow away anything that could potentially threaten you in CC.

You can only attack one unit with TA.

 Ghaz wrote:
From the Warhammer 40,000 Main Rulebook FAQ:

Q: If you use a Stratagem to remove a model from the battlefield and set it up again, does the model retain any persistent effects (for example, a bonus to one of its characteristics as a result of an ability)?

A: No.

What constitutes a 'persistent effect' is best discussed in another forum.

Also, not to be that guy, but the FAQ specifically says stratagem and not relic, which veil is. So the FAQ quite literally has no effect on Veil.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ghaz already quoted from the FAQs, scroll up a little.

Right, which is why I wrote "I see nothing in that FAQ." Which means I read the FAQ. And found it had nothing to do with Szeras or Veil. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

You can only attack one unit with TA.

Incorrect:

Use this Stratagem before a MEPHRIT unit from your army attacks in the Shooting phase. Each time you make an unmodified hit roll of 6 for a model in that unit, you can make one additional hit roll for that model with the same weapon against the same target. These additional hit rolls cannot themselves generate any further hit rolls.

The additional hits have to target the unit they were generated against, that's the only limitation.