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Just add a 2+ AoF per detachment that is completely SoB.That would give you Celestine and 3x 2+ a turn in a lot of games.Give the canoness a jump pack and you got yourself a crazy fun army. Come up with a new flyer or give the SoB the Avernger Strike Fighter or Xiphon so they get the shield of faith. Also, give Celestians the Dominion treatment. Let a squad of 5 take 4 power weapons. Give them 2 attacks and WS3+. It makes them a glass canon in assault, but probably fun.

 deviantduck wrote:
Just add a 2+ AoF per detachment that is completely SoB.That would give you Celestine and 3x 2+ a turn in a lot of games.Give the canoness a jump pack and you got yourself a crazy fun army. Come up with a new flyer or give the SoB the Avernger Strike Fighter or Xiphon so they get the shield of faith. Also, give Celestians the Dominion treatment. Let a squad of 5 take 4 power weapons. Give them 2 attacks and WS3+. It makes them a glass canon in assault, but probably fun.

I wouldn't mind if sisters just got access to some of the IG fliers. Fliers are in such a weird place in 8th. I don't see them nearly as often, and if GW has limited time/resources to make Sisters of Battle into an army, I'd rather they flesh out other vehicles like the Exorcist and Immolator rather than a tacked-on flier.

But, I do agree with you on the Act of Faith. An extra Act per detachment would make things run smoother, as long as it wasn't limited to be used on a unit within that detachment, because that could get silly. Having a pool of Acts like Command Points wouldn't be bad.

I definitely think that there should be ways to generate extra Acts of Faith by achieving certain army or even Ordo-specific objectives. Kill a squad of heretic astartes? on a 4+ gain an Act of Faith. Defend an objective for a turn? on a 4+ gain an Act of Faith. Squad of Seraphim wiped in martyrdom in assault? roll that 4+. That's what the Sisters are all about.

Sisters are already an incredibly strong army in and of themselves.... giving them more acts of faith would make that army ridiculously OP. As we saw with Ynaari, shooting multiple times per turn out of phase is really, really strong, as is moving, and fighting. There are built in controls for Ynaari and there should be for sisters. The current implementation of acts of faith - while very strong - is good enough.

I'd much rather any individual Act of Faith be weaker, but allow access across more of the army. I do like the idea of using them similar to Psychic Powers, in the form of Prayer.

 Marmatag wrote:
Sisters are already an incredibly strong army in and of themselves.... giving them more acts of faith would make that army ridiculously OP. As we saw with Ynaari, shooting multiple times per turn out of phase is really, really strong, as is moving, and fighting. There are built in controls for Ynaari and there should be for sisters. The current implementation of acts of faith - while very strong - is good enough.

When was the last time we won a major event, again?

Or got into the top eight?

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Sisters are already an incredibly strong army in and of themselves.... giving them more acts of faith would make that army ridiculously OP. As we saw with Ynaari, shooting multiple times per turn out of phase is really, really strong, as is moving, and fighting. There are built in controls for Ynaari and there should be for sisters. The current implementation of acts of faith - while very strong - is good enough.

When was the last time we won a major event, again?

Or got into the top eight?

I mean top 10 @ LVO is pretty good, right? Better than Ultramarines, Death Guard, Tyranids, Orks, Tau, Astra Militarum, etc

 Marmatag wrote:
Sisters are already an incredibly strong army in and of themselves.... giving them more acts of faith would make that army ridiculously OP. As we saw with Ynaari, shooting multiple times per turn out of phase is really, really strong, as is moving, and fighting. There are built in controls for Ynaari and there should be for sisters. The current implementation of acts of faith - while very strong - is good enough.

Sisters don’t have anywhere near the individual unit power of Eldar though. Ten Dark Reapers shooting twice is terrifying. What’s the worst a Sisters unit double shooting could do? An extra 4 meltaguns and half a dozen bolters? It’s hardly a fair comparison.

As for being out of phase, Acts of Faith don’t trigger on your opponent’s turn - which is far, far more powerful than at the start of your own turn before you’ve had a chance to move.

kombatwombat wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Sisters are already an incredibly strong army in and of themselves.... giving them more acts of faith would make that army ridiculously OP. As we saw with Ynaari, shooting multiple times per turn out of phase is really, really strong, as is moving, and fighting. There are built in controls for Ynaari and there should be for sisters. The current implementation of acts of faith - while very strong - is good enough.

Sisters don’t have anywhere near the individual unit power of Eldar though. Ten Dark Reapers shooting twice is terrifying. What’s the worst a Sisters unit double shooting could do? An extra 4 meltaguns and half a dozen bolters? It’s hardly a fair comparison.

As for being out of phase, Acts of Faith don’t trigger on your opponent’s turn - which is far, far more powerful than at the start of your own turn before you’ve had a chance to move.

They do through that CA Stratagem, though!

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Sisters are already an incredibly strong army in and of themselves.... giving them more acts of faith would make that army ridiculously OP. As we saw with Ynaari, shooting multiple times per turn out of phase is really, really strong, as is moving, and fighting. There are built in controls for Ynaari and there should be for sisters. The current implementation of acts of faith - while very strong - is good enough.

Sisters don’t have anywhere near the individual unit power of Eldar though. Ten Dark Reapers shooting twice is terrifying. What’s the worst a Sisters unit double shooting could do? An extra 4 meltaguns and half a dozen bolters? It’s hardly a fair comparison.

As for being out of phase, Acts of Faith don’t trigger on your opponent’s turn - which is far, far more powerful than at the start of your own turn before you’ve had a chance to move.

They do through that CA Stratagem, though!

Which requires you to lose a character. Not exactly a great option.

 Marmatag wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Sisters are already an incredibly strong army in and of themselves.... giving them more acts of faith would make that army ridiculously OP. As we saw with Ynaari, shooting multiple times per turn out of phase is really, really strong, as is moving, and fighting. There are built in controls for Ynaari and there should be for sisters. The current implementation of acts of faith - while very strong - is good enough.

When was the last time we won a major event, again?

Or got into the top eight?

I mean top 10 @ LVO is pretty good, right? Better than Ultramarines, Death Guard, Tyranids, Orks, Tau, Astra Militarum, etc

The reality is about halfway between these two. Allowing for more acts of faith is fine but Sisters are already so vastly ahead of where most index armies started (only guard and pre-nerf stormraven Space Marines were definitively superior) that giving them too much all at once would be brutal. And if I recall correctly, SoB DID win a GT level event in the index days.

I would say 2-3 table wide AoFs would be about the max I would feel comfortable asking for out the gate. If imagifiers could also get jump packs and possibly a relic to boost their AoFs those 2 changes would establish a strong, tweakable baseline. (for the record I'm in favor of a more robust system using CP but this is a perfectly acceptable start.)

Oh, and for the record I hate the idea of them being even vaguely similar to psychic powers, or like the prayer system DoK have, or the unit by unit system we had in 7th, or the faith point systems from 5th and earlier. AoFs as they exist now are just about perfect, they just need to be expanded a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Could have the faith system reworked to all sisters getting faith on a 4+. Roll for each unit. Celestians and seraphim could do on 3+ and cannoness on 2+. Celestine can keep auto as it is.
Imagifiers could then have a 6" bubble buff of +1 to faith rolls.
Just a thought. Scales with army rhen but might be too powerful?

this would be insanity, actually. AoFs are powerful enough that they should be a limited resource that you have to invest in generating and be sure to utilize properly. Allowing every unit to generate their own AoF would be just...wooo...so op.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kombatwombat wrote:
AoF could be roll a D6 for each unit at the start each turn and it goes off on a 6+. Then you have a series of modifiers:

+1 for being within 6” of any Imagifiers
+1 for being within 6” of Celestine
+1 for a Stratagem
+1 for being within 6” of a Relic
Seraphim have a native +1 (not an aura) - maybe give Repentia a +1 natively too but prevent them from getting any other bonuses to it?
(Possibly) -1 if the unit failed a Morale Check last turn

Then hard cap it at a 4+, except for Celestine who natively gets it on a 3+.

There’s room for fine tuning in there but I think it would scale nicely (certainly better than the current system does).

For Repentia, I agree they should be dropped to the low-teen points range (12 or so?). For the Mistress, either make her be part of the squad and worth 20pts or something or let her be affected by her own Repentia aura so she can keep up.

Celestians are a hard one, but for a melee build I would suggest:
- Str +1 AP-2 Dmg1 sword (essentially a Power Axe in profile)
- Shield that gives +1 to saves, making them a 2+/5++ with Shield of Faith
- A special rule to bump them up a little bit - something like a reroll to hit/wound or +1 to hit/to wound/attack in the first round of combat. It doesn’t have to be world-beating, just a little boost.
- A relevant Stratagem. It doesn’t have to be Celestian-specific but something they can make use of.
- 20pts a model, tops. Maybe 11 for the body, 5 for the sword, 3 or so for the shield.

This would make them a reasonable assault unit that could handle Assault Marines or something but wouldn’t go hunting Berserkers.

Edit: I would also make the Shield of Faith a 5++ rather than a 6++, since the latter is all but useless - it’s only useful against things like Melta which are usually targeting tanks, and even on the rare occasion you can use it it’s only a 1/6 chance of doing anything.

This is not an iteration of the AoF system I'd use. It's managed to make AoFs tedious, time consuming, more random, less tactical, frustrating(either they'll hit the correct units and be blisteringly op or not hit the correct units and be totally worthless), swingy(see above), and with just an avalanche of book-keeping.

XD yeah. With faith as it is now, definately.

Honestly, i think GW will completely rework the faith system and its abilities for the codex. GW just cant seem to get through a single source for sisters without completely changing how it all works.
5th and before different to 6th which was different to 7th which was different to 8th. So yeah, fully expecting them to mess with it for the dex.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
XD yeah. With faith as it is now, definately.

Honestly, i think GW will completely rework the faith system and its abilities for the codex. GW just cant seem to get through a single source for sisters without completely changing how it all works.
5th and before different to 6th which was different to 7th which was different to 8th. So yeah, fully expecting them to mess with it for the dex.

Which would be heartbreaking. AoFs are amazingly fun and incredibly powerful. All the system needs is a way to jump through some kind of hoop or pay some kind of cost to generate more that DOESN'T revolve around near useless 6" move characters or Celestine.

I would assume a strategem on top of what you have now will be the way it goes, kind of like how Necrons can get an extra RP.

Scout moves and free out-of-phase actions are incredibly strong. It should surprise no one that sisters are the best index army, and are better than some codex armies.

If new units and wargear are added to the range, and AoF stay the same, sisters will be #1 for the same reason Ynaari was number one, out of phase, extra actions are incredibly powerful. When you scout your open topped stuff forward and fire a few melta-volleys before the movement phase even happens, yeah, we've got a problem.

Normally this goes without saying, but since i'm in a sisters thread, i'll just say it: I'm not advocating that Sisters get nerfed, or anything like that, just that they're already strong and GW should take that into account when updating & balancing the faction.

A.T. wrote:
Blood of Martyrs, page 118.
And the 2nd ed rulebook page 19 for the sisters explicitly wearing uniforms based on those worn as the brides of the Emperor.

Thanks, you rock .

 Marmatag wrote:
Scout moves and free out-of-phase actions are incredibly strong. It should surprise no one that sisters are the best index army, and are better than some codex armies.

If new units and wargear are added to the range, and AoF stay the same, sisters will be #1 for the same reason Ynaari was number one, out of phase, extra actions are incredibly powerful. When you scout your open topped stuff forward and fire a few melta-volleys before the movement phase even happens, yeah, we've got a problem.

Normally this goes without saying, but since i'm in a sisters thread, i'll just say it: I'm not advocating that Sisters get nerfed, or anything like that, just that they're already strong and GW should take that into account when updating & balancing the faction.

(sidebar: Units inside vehicles can't be target for acts of faith, even the repressor. If someone is doing this in your area, they're wrong)

I agree that GW has to be very careful about how they go about updating SoB, and that they're already very strong. I also agree that giving us new STUFF and new RULES together would send sisters skyrocketing into 'pre-nerf index stormraven spam' levels of OP, with no other changes; but the difference between SoB and Ynnari is that SoB's AoFs are better designed as a mechanic than soulburst.

Once they shore up the wording(there's some weird edge cases that the community basically said 'RAI I guess?' to), the AoF system is inherently limited in ways that make it tweakable. It happens at the start of your turn(outside of rare cases in martyrdom) it can only target infantry, the same unit can't benefit from AoFs more than once per turn, each act of faith beyond the first one has a cost associated to it (AoFs cost about 40pts for a 4+ chance and are heavily constrained in terms of usability outside of the 2+ and Celestine's). Your opponent always knows exactly how many AoFs you're going to get and can do things during HIS turn to prepare for them.

Acts of Faith should have a cost associated to them, they should be a limited resource that has to be spent wisely, and they should scale to the size of the army (both in raw points, and the amount of available AoF targets). We already have the first 2, the goal is to move toward getting #3. Currently, the average 2000pt SoB army get between 1.833 and 2.833 AoFs per turn(statistically. Many armies don't take imagifiers and the ones that do don't take many.). I'd like to see that range go to 2.5-4.5. From that point it would come down to what cost would be appropriate for the amount of power those extra AoFs would give. Command points? Points increases? Wargear Purchases? Compositional requirements? Some combination?

"All the system needs is a way to jump through some kind of hoop or pay some kind of cost to generate more that DOESN'T revolve around near useless 6" move characters or Celestine."

What if Cannonesses got access to Jump Packs again?

phydaux wrote:
"All the system needs is a way to jump through some kind of hoop or pay some kind of cost to generate more that DOESN'T revolve around near useless 6" move characters or Celestine."

What if Cannonesses got access to Jump Packs again?

Imagifiers are the characters that give extra chances at AoFs and yes, you are correct, that would be very helpful to the army if Imagifiers could get jump packs. For free. Because at 40pts considering the only other wargear they have is a bolter and their iteration of AoF goes off on an emperor damned 4+, 40pts for the body and the jumppack wouldn't be unreasonable.

And you're right, canonesses should get jumppacks too.

ERJAK wrote:
From that point it would come down to what cost would be appropriate for the amount of power those extra AoFs would give. Command points? Points increases? Wargear Purchases? Compositional requirements? Some combination?

Whatever they do they need to have it tested by someone who plays Sisters and understands the army, because otherwise the power generated by AoF will be vastly over-valued. The old 3rd ed WH Codex had comp requirements - Faithful characters gave you extra Faith Points which could be used by any squad to perform their Acts - but the points you spent including Canonesses over Palatines and upgrading to VSSes simply didn't make up for the guns, bodies, and Immolators you had to trim out to fit the extra Faith Points in. The AoFs were situiationally awesome, don't get me wrong, but bolters and meltaguns and tanks have general utility that a 3++ save for one phase just can't compete with.

EDIT: I'm not so enthusiastic about the return of the JP Canoness. Always felt they were a bit of a points sink myself. The JP Eviscerator Canoness did a job, but she cost a lot of points for such a fragile model and while she'd draw a lot of fire away from the rest of your army, she had too few Wounds and too little Toughness to tank all that attention. I also saw a few people running JP Power Sword Canonesses, which just seemed like a waste of time when Celestine was such a combat monster and only cost a couple more points.

 BBAP wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
From that point it would come down to what cost would be appropriate for the amount of power those extra AoFs would give. Command points? Points increases? Wargear Purchases? Compositional requirements? Some combination?

Whatever they do they need to have it tested by someone who plays Sisters and understands the army, because otherwise the power generated by AoF will be vastly over-valued. The old 3rd ed WH Codex had comp requirements - Faithful characters gave you extra Faith Points which could be used by any squad to perform their Acts - but the points you spent including Canonesses over Palatines and upgrading to VSSes simply didn't make up for the guns, bodies, and Immolators you had to trim out to fit the extra Faith Points in. The AoFs were situiationally awesome, don't get me wrong, but bolters and meltaguns and tanks have general utility that a 3++ save for one phase just can't compete with.

EDIT: I'm not so enthusiastic about the return of the JP Canoness. Always felt they were a bit of a points sink myself. The JP Eviscerator Canoness did a job, but she cost a lot of points for such a fragile model and while she'd draw a lot of fire away from the rest of your army, she had too few Wounds and too little Toughness to tank all that attention. I also saw a few people running JP Power Sword Canonesses, which just seemed like a waste of time when Celestine was such a combat monster and only cost a couple more points.

The JP Canoness does something completely different in 8th than she did before. She doesn't have to tank anything due to the new character rules, you don't have to give her any wargear(although inferno pistols are still awesome), all she needs to do is actually be able to keep up with the rest of the army. Actually being able to get reroll 1s to hit on dominions would be a huge buff. Oh, and canonesses are 45pts, and inferno pistol and jump pack would put her at... 68ish? Yeah, that seems worth it to me. Add in the fact that most lists NEED at least 3 HQs and yeah, I would kill for a JP canoness.

In regards to the rest, AoFs are so massively powerful right now that it'll be hard to make them NOT worth it. They succeeded with the imagifier by making it dramatically too expensive, highly random, and anti-synergistic to all but 1 unit of the army. Literally all they have to do is keep the imagifier at 40pts and give it a jumppack and 2 would be basically mandatory. If they made it a 3+ that would be even better.

ERJAK wrote:
The JP Canoness does something completely different in 8th than she did before. She doesn't have to tank anything due to the new character rules, you don't have to give her any wargear(although inferno pistols are still awesome), all she needs to do is actually be able to keep up with the rest of the army. Actually being able to get reroll 1s to hit on dominions would be a huge buff. Oh, and canonesses are 45pts, and inferno pistol and jump pack would put her at... 68ish? Yeah, that seems worth it to me. Add in the fact that most lists NEED at least 3 HQs and yeah, I would kill for a JP canoness.

I guess I can see that - but why would she not be able to keep up with the rest of the army as is? Can you not just chuck her in an Immolator and have her roll alongside a BSS?

In regards to the rest, AoFs are so massively powerful right now that it'll be hard to make them NOT worth it. They succeeded with the imagifier by making it dramatically too expensive, highly random, and anti-synergistic to all but 1 unit of the army. Literally all they have to do is keep the imagifier at 40pts and give it a jumppack and 2 would be basically mandatory. If they made it a 3+ that would be even better.

I can definitely see that. The current incarnation of AoF is crazy good.

 BBAP wrote:
... but the points you spent including Canonesses over Palatines and upgrading to VSSes simply didn't make up for the guns, bodies, and Immolators you had to trim out to fit the extra Faith Points / I'm not so enthusiastic about the return of the JP Canoness. Always felt they were a bit of a points sink myself / I also saw a few people running JP Power Sword Canonesses, which just seemed like a waste of time when Celestine was such a combat monster and only cost a couple more points.

It's like we played with completely different Witch Hunters books.

I appreciate that as 5th rolled on the 'optimal' WH list was stormtroopers and immolators but for a more normal sisters list the VSS was a sunk cost to get faith for your drive-by divine guidance.
The jump pack canoness was one of the better HQs in the game for ages, and Celestine (while good with her I5) had the triple drawback of high cost, de-faithing on death, and not being able to match the canoness for S8 instant death and anti-vehicle.

In 8th jump packs are a flat 25% increase so at current values you are looking at 68pts for a model that moves 12" with a 4++, 4 eviscerator attacks, and a reroll 1s aura. Inferno pistol optional.
-and that's before any of the traditional codex price cuts, relics, and a hopeful de-nerfing of the eviscerator. Just the aura alone is a huge benefit for seraphim and in support of Celestine.

Can we not have Imagifiers because the rules would be good for your competative list, please? The idea of someone holding such an unwieldly sign, two handedly, while zooming through the air on a jump pack is one step of silliness too far.

A.T. wrote:
I appreciate that as 5th rolled on the 'optimal' WH list was stormtroopers and immolators but for a more normal sisters list the VSS was a sunk cost to get faith for your drive-by divine guidance.

My 4th Edition Sisters army didn't have many vehicles (because they sucked in 4th) and I tried to play the book as it was intended to be played, with AoF being a core part of the set-up. As 5th rolled on and it became apparent that Melta-Mech MEQs were king I added more vehicles and firepower and removed some Faith Points, and as I did the army magically became more effective. The army still had Faith Points, it just wasn't built around them. Laud Hailers on the Dom's rides were my only concession to AoFs by the time a certain Spiritual Liege shat on the faction, and I never felt the army's performance suffered for it.

Also I'm getting a total nostalgia lump thinking about how awesome Sisters were in 5th Edition. They had the tools to take on everything.

The jump pack canoness was one of the better HQs in the game for ages, and Celestine (while good with her I5) had the triple drawback of high cost, de-faithing on death, and not being able to match the canoness for S8 instant death and anti-vehicle.

HQs in general were not an important part of an army back then, so while it's correct to say the JP Canoness was one of the better ones (and she was), she was still an unnecessary points sink in an army where you could buy a Melta death-ride for less than 130pts (JP Canoness with Eviscerator was around 150 with all the Relics, I believe). Celestine was likewise awesome in context - the context being a Jump Pack melee HQ, which isn't something the army ever really needed IMHO. Again, a points sink, but pretty nasty in CC if you were into that kind of thing, and definitely a better option than a JP Canoness with Power Sword (or Ardent Blade, or whatever the +2S relic was called).

Changed days now, though. Your HQs apparently matter now, so having a good one seems like a good idea. Maybe the time of the Jump Pack Canoness has finally come.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Can we not have Imagifiers because the rules would be good for your competative list, please? The idea of someone holding such an unwieldly sign, two handedly, while zooming through the air on a jump pack is one step of silliness too far.

Silliness is 40k's stock in trade. Heaven forfend that the grimdark becomes earnest and the setting starts taking itself seriously. That would be wretched.

Looking at making AoF scale somewhat better, perhaps a return of the Simulacrum Imperialis as a squad upgrade? Each squad with a Simulacrum has a chance to generate an AoF that only the unit itself can use on a 6+? Put it at perhaps a 10 point upgrade?

Seraphim and Celestians as Veteran units that have a deeper faith than their junior Sisters could grant a bonus of +1 to all rolls to gain an AoF within 6". Celestians could carry a Simulacrum themselves but I agree that jp troops carrying a holy relic around seems a bit off.

Though opening up the options for wargear to the Imagifer would be a nice addition to our character ranks. Either that or have the Palatine and Canoness provide the same +1 bonus to gain an AoF for having deeper faith that would allow units that otherwise wouldn't be able to roll for an AoF to do so.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Can we not have Imagifiers because the rules would be good for your competative list, please? The idea of someone holding such an unwieldly sign, two handedly, while zooming through the air on a jump pack is one step of silliness too far.

Well currently we don't have imagifiers because they're terrible doggak unless you have retributors for them to pocket so...

Make it a magical...faith...thing...instead. I don't care how, they just have to be able to keep up with the rest of the army WITHOUT getting into a transport.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dracpanzer wrote:
Looking at making AoF scale somewhat better, perhaps a return of the Simulacrum Imperialis as a squad upgrade? Each squad with a Simulacrum has a chance to generate an AoF that only the unit itself can use on a 6+? Put it at perhaps a 10 point upgrade?

Seraphim and Celestians as Veteran units that have a deeper faith than their junior Sisters could grant a bonus of +1 to all rolls to gain an AoF within 6". Celestians could carry a Simulacrum themselves but I agree that jp troops carrying a holy relic around seems a bit off.

Though opening up the options for wargear to the Imagifer would be a nice addition to our character ranks. Either that or have the Palatine and Canoness provide the same +1 bonus to gain an AoF for having deeper faith that would allow units that otherwise wouldn't be able to roll for an AoF to do so.

I wouldn't mind some kind of squad upgrade that contributed to AoFs but I hate the randomness factor.

Acts of Faith are so pivotal and so powerful that trying to balance them with randomness will just end up being frustrating and unfun for both players. 'Ope, all 6 of my dominions squads rolled 6s this turn, hope you didn't like anything that was within 12" of them very much because it's dead now.'

Maybe something like if you have X number of banners on the field you get an extra 2+

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Can we not have Imagifiers because the rules would be good for your competative list, please? The idea of someone holding such an unwieldly sign, two handedly, while zooming through the air on a jump pack is one step of silliness too far.

Sanguinary Guard Ancients have it worse - would you want to be using a jump pack with a flag in one hand? That's got to be a "No capes!" moment waiting to happen...

 Dysartes wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Can we not have Imagifiers because the rules would be good for your competative list, please? The idea of someone holding such an unwieldly sign, two handedly, while zooming through the air on a jump pack is one step of silliness too far.

Sanguinary Guard Ancients have it worse - would you want to be using a jump pack with a flag in one hand? That's got to be a "No capes!" moment waiting to happen...

Commander Dante: Good news Brother Vardus you have earned the honour of carrying the sacred chapter banner into battle
Vardus: I'd rather not.
Commander Dante:What?
Vardus: After watching Brother Victinis get the material sucked into the intake of his jump pack and explode I'd rather not, unless you're going to let me walk.
Commander Dante:No Sanguinary guard walks!!!
Vardus: Then give the banner someone else please.

ERJAK wrote:
Acts of Faith are so pivotal and so powerful that trying to balance them with randomness will just end up being frustrating and unfun for both players. 'Ope, all 6 of my dominions squads rolled 6s this turn, hope you didn't like anything that was within 12" of them very much because it's dead now.'

This got me thinking - I'm not sure 40pts, an Elites slot and a Character is an unfair price to pay for a shot at extra AoF, purely because they *are* so powerful and pivotal. We've already got one per turn on a 2+ - is the army so dysfunctional that it requires more in order to work? Or are people just looking to beard it up?

 BBAP wrote:
This got me thinking - I'm not sure 40pts, an Elites slot and a Character is an unfair price to pay for a shot at extra AoF, purely because they *are* so powerful and pivotal. We've already got one per turn on a 2+ - is the army so dysfunctional that it requires more in order to work? Or are people just looking to beard it up?

There are four problems with the current faith/imagifier system -

1) Inverse ninja rule - the more sisters you have, the less powerful they are. A single unit of allied sisters have almost twice the firepower of the same squad in an sisters army.
2) It's 40pts for a coin-flip, so statistically you are paying 80pts to shoot twice with... what, an 85pt unit of retributors?
3) En-mass it becomes a coin flip to see if your army will be weak or strong in any given turn with no element of tactics or strategy involved.
4) The imagifiers and timing are somewhat detached from the army - they can't keep up with a unit that uses faith to move, they don't function when disembarking in a commonly mechanised faction, they can't join either of the fast attack units effectively, they are extremely localised to the point of being a squad upgrade rather than an army upgrade, and so on.


Personally though as an army ability, given the strength of faith, the two things i'd be most interested in seeing fixed are 1 & 4 - make sisters better at faith as an army than allies and reduce the fragmentation of faith (by allowing characters to share in it). Frankly the imagifiers are probably better off doing something different like allowing a sisters player to use their faith later in the turn (making them a tactical tool) and leaving faith generation down to detachments and stratagems.