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drbored wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Not sure why people think the Immolator needs to be redone. It is fine as it is. Probably because the Exorcist metal parts are attached to the Immolator pieces.

Now the Exorcist needs to be converted to plastic to get rid of those metal parts. The question is will we get a plastic pipe organ or will GW go in a different direction to give themselves an easy opportunity to build a second tank off of the new sprue they create for the Exorcist?

After that, I expect GW will want to create a plastic Penitent Engine to allow them to check that vehicle off the list. It is possible they decide to go in an entirely different direction, but that's the easy pick.

This is hilarious to me. People think the Immolator DOESN'T need to be reworked?

Compare the new Death Guard models to the old ones. Have you seen the old metal Plague Marines? They're a head shorter than normal Tactical Marines by this point. The new Death Guard models are now similar in size to the new Primaris, not to mention the incredible level of detail that's packed into those models.

By ignoring kits like the Immolator, you open the army up to look horribly mixed between the old style of models that are 20+ years old, and new models that will have a much higher fidelity. It'd be like playing a video game where all of the graphics are hyper realistic, but once in a while you'll face an enemy that looks like it was dragged out of the original Pacman. How distracting!!

More importantly, I think that GW needs to prepare for the time when eventually the Rhino will be changed as the end-all be-all tank of the Imperium. That kit is showing its age. I understand that its versatility is impressive, covering multiple Imperium and Chaos factions with minor bits swaps, but it still will suffer from that difference in resolution of detail without some help.

I'd actually prefer to see the Immolator and Exorcist totally replaced by a new kind of transport option that's not based on the Rhino at all.

The immolator already is the best looking rhino chassis vehicle out there and the rhino isn't going anywhere anytime soon. I honestly think they're unlikely to ever redo the rhino. Likely the most we'll see is sprues like the immolator has to gussy them up a bit.

Immolators look brutally out of place compared to battle sisters NOW because of how much nicer and newer they look. Oh and the vast majority of people who play SoB will be mixing and matching the old and new for years after release. Plenty of people will NEVER upgrade models that still fit in the codex, so get used to that.

Using the deathguard as an example is weird, they still have the same rhino everyone else has. A rhino that is actually nowhere near as nice looking as the immolator is with its extra sprue. I mean the plagueburst crawler, mephitic blight hauler, and Foetid bloat drone are all better looking models, but it's not like the rhino sticks out really. (side note: all nurgle models are overrated and overly busy)

Finally, you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You don't like immolators. Good for you. They're still an all plastic option in our incredibly small codex that we can't afford to lose. They're only going to release a maybe 3 vehicle kits, 4ish infantry kits, a big centerpiece, and a handful of characters. That doesn't leave enough room for throwing out perfectly fine unit options with perfectly fine models(assuming the exorcist turret gets a plastic upgrade sprue) because you're not a big fan of 'rhino chassis'. Otherwise we could end up like deathguard where we don't have enough good units to put together a decent list anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
They may also make Veridian a named character again.

You say again - has she ever actually been a playable named character? I didn't think so.

She had specfic rules in 7th when she came out.

I must've missed them entirely - thanks for letting me know.

kombatwombat wrote:
- Combined plastic sprue for Immolator/Exorcist upgrade from a Rhino

OK, I'm going to ask the question - why do people keep thinking the Immolator needs a rework, aside from a new box?

And even if it did, why the frak would it be combined with the Exorcist? Other than the Rhino at their heart, the designs are very different (assuming pipe organ artillery remains as the design).

Actually, the exorcist isn't an upgraded rhino, it's an immolator with some metal bits stuck to it. Look closely at the picture on the store and you'll see that the Exorcist's turret is actually seated on top of the extra top hatch piece from the immolator kit. Actually when the immolator went off the store for about a year, the best way to get a new immolator was to buy an exorcist and just chuck out the metal parts. Making a combined kit would just be a rebox of the immolator with a sprue for the turret bits that are currently metal.

That's actually what I meant for the previous comment too. They'll rebox the immolator/exorcist with a plastic version of the EXORCISTS turret bits(again, alongside some new vehicle upgrade options to make the kit more appealing to the seasoned collector). The immolator is fine as is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 John Prins wrote:

 BBAP wrote:


The AoF system is exactly as limited as it needs to be, because getting huge numbers of extra actions every turn allows you to affect the game far too much to be fair.

Basically it seems that AoF are so powerful they have to be heavily limited, but it has some issues IMO scaling up with higher point values. It's very strong at low points (2-3 AoF reliably), but at higher values the number of AoF per turn varies wildly because it's mostly on 4+ rolls, and as noted previously, heavily dependent on positioning and really restricts certain kinds of builds - someone who wants a Seraphim army is out of luck.

That said, this is a solvable problem - Jump Pack Canonesses with AoF providing Relics would fix that. Expanded Relics, Warlord Traits and faction Traits might solve a lot of problems.

See, this is all I'm really asking for. Making the AoF system a bit more usable. Expand it a bit so that it's not as antithetical to how the rest of the army plays. Fix imagifiers. A fair system would be 1 free AoF, 1-2 mdeium-low cost AoFs, Celestine(who doesn't really count, she's costed assuming you AoF HER every turn so it's a 0 sum game) 1+ High cost AoFs for an average of 3-5 per turn depending on how much you invest in them. Also not hamstringing the rest of your army for a chance at double shooting something on turn 3, which is what imagifiers are now.

And I don't care what BBAP says, if you don't have retributors, more than 1 imagifier is absolute garbage. Even then, that one imagifier is mostly going to be used for trying and failing to AoF ITSELF to catch up with the rest of the army, and the 2+ you get for desperately suiciding it in a sad effort to make it somehow worth 40pts.

I'm looking at the Immolator as we speak and all I see are lumpy, outdated details that really need an update. If the rest of the line gets an update but the Immolator stays the same, it's not going to look great.

For every player that will be using old Sisters models I predict that there will be two more that will be buying fresh sisters armies, either because they are coming back to the hobby, or because they've been waiting for this army for a long time but were always dissuaded by local grognards into picking up something else, OR because they saw it for the first time when it gets updated and want to hop in on nuns with guns.

A lot of people will not be happy if the Immolator isn't improved upon and updated.

A simple solution, then, to make everyone happy, is a new upgrade sprue that includes Immolator and Exorcist bits in fresh, new, redesigned plastic, with a few new options to boot.

 BBAP wrote:

 dracpanzer wrote:
Looking at BBAP's posts in the Sisters Tactics thread I think its safe to assume they haven't played Sisters that much.

Since 4th Edition, friend. This is only my second game in 8th, though.

Point stands, two times.

It isn't that AoF's themselves are bad, unless you play pure foot Sisters they don't scale. There is simply no way to make the AoF's available to the units you want to use them on. Celestine is almost always going to be using her own, which gives us the sole 2+ army wide AoF to divide between all the Seraphim, Dominions and otherwise mech'd up units that spend the entire game moving away from your Imagifers.

Like many have said the AoF's themselves are fine, Sisters just need a way to make them available to the units we actually use while they do the things they do. One Imagifer is good for Retributors if you can't afford a second squad of them, after that, not so much.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Command Re-rolls were made for that sort of thing. Sure you'll double 1 once in 36 games, but that's an acceptable risk.

Totally forgot about Command Rerolls.

Did I mention character protection? Play it right and she'll never be a target for more than a fraction of their firepower, and 2+ saves are remarkably effective against boltgun fire.

2+ saves will help you bounce a lot of wounds - but T3 helps you take a lot of wounds, which helps you fail saves. Then she dies, you roll a 1... so you Command Reroll, she gets back up 35/36 times and your opponent sighs and tries to find more bolters to kill her with. That's actually really nasty - she's sucking in the same kind of shooting as a Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant.

I just can't get past that price tag, though. So, so many bolters - and they can get back up too.

ERJAK wrote:
See, this is all I'm really asking for. Making the AoF system a bit more usable. Expand it a bit so that it's not as antithetical to how the rest of the army plays.

... to how you want to play the army. MSU Sisters in tanks don't take best advantage of the AoF system - but that's the price you pay for extra mobility and protection. You gain an advantage in one area, you lose it in another. The AoF system is fine.

A fair system would be 1 free AoF, 1-2 mdeium-low cost AoFs, Celestine(who doesn't really count, she's costed assuming you AoF HER every turn so it's a 0 sum game) 1+ High cost AoFs for an average of 3-5 per turn depending on how much you invest in them. Also not hamstringing the rest of your army for a chance at double shooting something on turn 3, which is what imagifiers are now.

If you're only using Divine Guidance you're missing 3/4ths of the AoFs you can use. My footsloggers used AoFs every single turn, sometimes to move, sometimes to fight (I know, right?), on one occasion to Fall Back. That's the bonus I get for not riding in vehicles - the trade-off is my Sisters are slow and unprotected.

And I don't care what BBAP says, if you don't have retributors, more than 1 imagifier is absolute garbage. Even then, that one imagifier is mostly going to be used for trying and failing to AoF ITSELF to catch up with the rest of the army, and the 2+ you get for desperately suiciding it in a sad effort to make it somehow worth 40pts.

You want more AoFs. Imagifers give you more AoFs. More Imagifers increase the odds of more AoFs. What more can I say?

drbored wrote:
I'm looking at the Immolator as we speak and all I see are lumpy, outdated details that really need an update. If the rest of the line gets an update but the Immolator stays the same, it's not going to look great.

I disagree completely. As long as the rhino stays the same for SM's, the look of the Immolator will stay the same.

drbored wrote:
I'm looking at the Immolator as we speak and all I see are lumpy, outdated details that really need an update. If the rest of the line gets an update but the Immolator stays the same, it's not going to look great.

For every player that will be using old Sisters models I predict that there will be two more that will be buying fresh sisters armies, either because they are coming back to the hobby, or because they've been waiting for this army for a long time but were always dissuaded by local grognards into picking up something else, OR because they saw it for the first time when it gets updated and want to hop in on nuns with guns.

A lot of people will not be happy if the Immolator isn't improved upon and updated.

A simple solution, then, to make everyone happy, is a new upgrade sprue that includes Immolator and Exorcist bits in fresh, new, redesigned plastic, with a few new options to boot.

That's still 1 out of 3. Which means you're going to see a lot of old sisters, for a long time, just like I just said. I doubt anyone else will be angry about immolators being not being updated. I've been scouring every square inch of the internet for anything even vaguely SoB related for years and this is 100% the only time I've seen someone have any issue with the immolator beyond 'repressors are better' or 'they're not in stock right now.'

The immolator will look just as good(actually better) next to the new stuff as rhinos look compared to deathguard and primaris now. If you have a problem with rhino chassis, take that up with GW. As for right now, I'd rather have an immolator and a NEW tank than an immolator but with like...3 extra purity seals or whatever nonsense on it.

If they did make a new sprue or someting, cool. Whatever. They don't need to and you're literally the only person in the entire world who will notice, but sure. Go for it.

I can't do this, as I haven't built Celestine or the twins yet, but how do they look alongside the Immolator?

 Dysartes wrote:
I can't do this, as I haven't built Celestine or the twins yet, but how do they look alongside the Immolator?

Bout like this.

We also have this problem of the Repressor no longer being sold, but being one of the most popular transports for the Sisters, so much so that 3rd party 3D printers are now supplying the majority of parts for it.

I definitely see GW releasing an Immolator/Repressor updated kit, and then maybe changing the Exorcist to be more of a centerpiece kit that's not based on the Rhino.

 BBAP wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Command Re-rolls were made for that sort of thing. Sure you'll double 1 once in 36 games, but that's an acceptable risk.

Totally forgot about Command Rerolls.

Did I mention character protection? Play it right and she'll never be a target for more than a fraction of their firepower, and 2+ saves are remarkably effective against boltgun fire.

2+ saves will help you bounce a lot of wounds - but T3 helps you take a lot of wounds, which helps you fail saves. Then she dies, you roll a 1... so you Command Reroll, she gets back up 35/36 times and your opponent sighs and tries to find more bolters to kill her with. That's actually really nasty - she's sucking in the same kind of shooting as a Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant.

I just can't get past that price tag, though. So, so many bolters - and they can get back up too.

ERJAK wrote:
See, this is all I'm really asking for. Making the AoF system a bit more usable. Expand it a bit so that it's not as antithetical to how the rest of the army plays.

... to how you want to play the army. MSU Sisters in tanks don't take best advantage of the AoF system - but that's the price you pay for extra mobility and protection. You gain an advantage in one area, you lose it in another. The AoF system is fine.

A fair system would be 1 free AoF, 1-2 mdeium-low cost AoFs, Celestine(who doesn't really count, she's costed assuming you AoF HER every turn so it's a 0 sum game) 1+ High cost AoFs for an average of 3-5 per turn depending on how much you invest in them. Also not hamstringing the rest of your army for a chance at double shooting something on turn 3, which is what imagifiers are now.

If you're only using Divine Guidance you're missing 3/4ths of the AoFs you can use. My footsloggers used AoFs every single turn, sometimes to move, sometimes to fight (I know, right?), on one occasion to Fall Back. That's the bonus I get for not riding in vehicles - the trade-off is my Sisters are slow and unprotected.

And I don't care what BBAP says, if you don't have retributors, more than 1 imagifier is absolute garbage. Even then, that one imagifier is mostly going to be used for trying and failing to AoF ITSELF to catch up with the rest of the army, and the 2+ you get for desperately suiciding it in a sad effort to make it somehow worth 40pts.

You want more AoFs. Imagifers give you more AoFs. More Imagifers increase the odds of more AoFs. What more can I say?

Celestine is better than any other 250pts the army can bring to bear. It's not even close. And if you really think resurrecting 2-3 9pt sisters per turn(assuming you have the 200pts of imagifiers you'd need to do so consistently) is enough to say 'they get back up too', then you're wrong.

The price tag on the extra mobility and protection is the extra points they cost, that's why they cost more points. And I can't even say 'why does the way you want to use the army get better use out of AoFs for no reason' because they can't, because horde lists are where you go from 'imagifiers are too slow to be worth it' to 'imagifiers are too expensive and too random to be worth it.' You'll figure that out eventually, once you start catching up to the rest of us.

Your foot sisters aren't using an AoF every turn unless you only have 4 units and 7 imagifiers. If you're using them to move, then that's a fine use of it, but you're not using them to move turn 2 or 3 because they'll be in range of what they need to hit, or in combat where the extra move doesn't matter. You'll start moving them again turn 5-6 to cap objectives but those middles 3 turn you'll be either shooting or fighting(let's be real though, you'll be failing AoF rolls). In an ideal situation you'll do extra move turn one, extra shoot turn two, extra fight turn 3, extra shoot turn 4, extra move turn 5. You'll never use the resurrect on battle sisters(unless you're trying to bring back a melta girl or heavy flamers) because resurrecting 1-3 of anything less than a sister with a heavy bolter will be less AoF efficient than simply taking another action. In fact, if resurrecting things is your best option, something most likely went seriously wrong.

You could say 'I understand the AoF system well enough to know that imagifiers are seriously flawed in terms of being extremely unreliable, overly expensive, and far too short of a range'. Or 'I understand opportunity cost enough to know that the value of an AoF that I cannot count on and likely won't hit the unit I need it to when I need it to is a hard sell over what I could have instead of it.' You're not that far along yet. You'll get there though.


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drbored wrote:
We also have this problem of the Repressor no longer being sold, but being one of the most popular transports for the Sisters, so much so that 3rd party 3D printers are now supplying the majority of parts for it.

I definitely see GW releasing an Immolator/Repressor updated kit, and then maybe changing the Exorcist to be more of a centerpiece kit that's not based on the Rhino.

That's actually fair. The Exorcist has a lot of metal on it and is a pretty iconic part of the army. Making a more elaborate version of it might be worth the investment, and remaking the Repressor would be a way of putting out stuff while also saving money in the design process.

The issue with redoing the exorcist though, is that most people who play SoB already have several and if you make a new one without completely upending its physical profile (like making it landraider sized) people are just going to keep using the old one or possibly even just converting whirlwinds and razorbacks if the new model is pricey enough. I don't know that GW would see it as a sound investment over just making a single upgrade sprue.

We'll see soon enough I guess.

The biggest issue I see with a plastic Repressor shared with an Immolator is that the Repressor is also mentioned as being used by Arbites. I can see the Arbites being a 40k release in the relatively near future, what with the other armies that have been released. If the kit is too dressed up with Ecclesiarchy symbols, it won't look right in an Arbites army. So the base kit should be like the Rhino, fairly plain, but able to be easily dressed up by a Sisters upgrade sprue.

Of course, this only makes sense if Arbites are a nearish-future release in any capacity. But GW does like keeping their options open when it comes to getting lots of use out of plastic kits. The poor Rhino moulds must be battered.

This is why I am amazed there is no plastic Priest character yet, seeing as it covers a unit entry in three separate codices!

Aside from the models-- which I agree need a reboot across the board, Immolator, Exorcist, and all-- how confident are we that there will even be a plastic Repressor? For GW to swing it from Forge World to their main product line (is there precedent for this?), they'd be making a major change to their stance on fire points. They pretty deliberately eliminated those from non-open topped vehicles in 8th, and I'm not sure they'd want them back. It seems like a pretty spammable and exploitable aspect of the rules that they maybe just wanted to wash their hands of it. If the Repressor appears in the Sisters codex, will generous fire points even be its main gimmick, or would they judge good transport capacity, lots of flamers, and the dozer ram to be enough?

Is there a precedent. Yes says the Baneblade (and varients), Stompa, and Valkyrie. Has it happened recently. Don't think so.

The Repressor is also out of production, which does make it more likely to be plasticked- it won't be stepping on FW toes if they don't sell it any more.

It is still a long shot, but there are only 5 vehicles available to a Sisters army, and 2 of them are FW, with one of the latter being OOP. Seems like a fairly low-hanging fruit to add to the line up in a big release to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
Is there a precedent. Yes says the Baneblade (and varients), Stompa, and Valkyrie. Has it happened recently. Don't think so.

The most recent is the Hydra, with a vastly inferior model to the awesome FW one. The FW Leman Russ variants also jumped into plastic for the most part, except the Annihilator and Conqueror. The Medusa never made it, and I'm not really sure why, as they updated the Basilisk kit after the Medusa was added to the 5th ed codex, and the two kits seem very dual-kit compatible.

I wasn't aware the Stompa was a FW product previously? I know they made some upgrade parts for the plastic version. They also made a Battlewagon model, and some fighters which were clearly the inspiration for the plastic GW ones (although the latter are technically different units).

Cool, so precedent says it's possible... I'd forgotten about the Baneblade. So the remaining question is whether they want to mess with balancing fire points in 8th or whether they'll go some other direction.

 dracpanzer wrote:
It isn't that AoF's themselves are bad, unless you play pure foot Sisters they don't scale. There is simply no way to make the AoF's available to the units you want to use them on. Celestine is almost always going to be using her own, which gives us the sole 2+ army wide AoF to divide between all the Seraphim, Dominions and otherwise mech'd up units that spend the entire game moving away from your Imagifers.

Like many have said the AoF's themselves are fine, Sisters just need a way to make them available to the units we actually use while they do the things they do. One Imagifer is good for Retributors if you can't afford a second squad of them, after that, not so much.

Pretty much this. I like the AoFs themselves, myself. But the implementation of how you actually use them needs fixing.

 Melissia wrote:

 dracpanzer wrote:
It isn't that AoF's themselves are bad, unless you play pure foot Sisters they don't scale. There is simply no way to make the AoF's available to the units you want to use them on. Celestine is almost always going to be using her own, which gives us the sole 2+ army wide AoF to divide between all the Seraphim, Dominions and otherwise mech'd up units that spend the entire game moving away from your Imagifers.

Like many have said the AoF's themselves are fine, Sisters just need a way to make them available to the units we actually use while they do the things they do. One Imagifer is good for Retributors if you can't afford a second squad of them, after that, not so much.

Pretty much this. I like the AoFs themselves, myself. But the implementation of how you actually use them needs fixing.

I would definitely say that if, say, EVERY sister unit got a 2+ AoF without any other changes, it'd be way too strong. Even if it's just one per detachment, that's potentially too strong. It's certainly a POWERFUL ability right now, but it doesn't do much more for 2,000 points of sisters than it does for 500, which to me, is not good.

drbored wrote:
We also have this problem of the Repressor no longer being sold, but being one of the most popular transports for the Sisters, so much so that 3rd party 3D printers are now supplying the majority of parts for it.

I definitely see GW releasing an Immolator/Repressor updated kit, and then maybe changing the Exorcist to be more of a centerpiece kit that's not based on the Rhino.

I saw 4 different custom Repressors at Adepticon. They all looked good and easy to reproduce. Made me bold enough to make my own after I finish my current project.


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I wouldn't be surprised if we see one or 2 new units as well.

I would be surprised if we didn’t see a new unit or two and shocked if we don’t see new options.

 Haighus wrote:
The poor Rhino moulds must be battered.

They sure got their money's worth out of them. How many kits use the same Rhino chassis? A Repressor upgrade would be one sprue, probably with room for Exorcist parts.

 John Prins wrote:
A Repressor upgrade would be one sprue, probably with room for Exorcist parts.

Though the repressor is notably different from the immolator/exorcist - the roof pieces have nothing in common. There is nothing that would suggest a shared sprue as nothing more than icons would be used by both.

 MacPhail wrote:
Cool, so precedent says it's possible... I'd forgotten about the Baneblade. So the remaining question is whether they want to mess with balancing fire points in 8th or whether they'll go some other direction.

...why would they need to deal with firepoints?

Repressors can already have units shoot of them, as can most of the drukhari and Harlequin vehicles. There's really no need to do fire points again.


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 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

drbored wrote:
We also have this problem of the Repressor no longer being sold, but being one of the most popular transports for the Sisters, so much so that 3rd party 3D printers are now supplying the majority of parts for it.

I definitely see GW releasing an Immolator/Repressor updated kit, and then maybe changing the Exorcist to be more of a centerpiece kit that's not based on the Rhino.

I saw 4 different custom Repressors at Adepticon. They all looked good and easy to reproduce. Made me bold enough to make my own after I finish my current project.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wouldn't be surprised if we see one or 2 new units as well.

We WILL see new units. It's not even a question. Seeing stuff we have now invalidated is possible, not seeing new stuff is laughable.

EVERY kit will be at least dual build and that leaves new seraphim, repentia, and penitent engine based units at the absolute minimum.

ERJAK wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
Cool, so precedent says it's possible... I'd forgotten about the Baneblade. So the remaining question is whether they want to mess with balancing fire points in 8th or whether they'll go some other direction.

...why would they need to deal with firepoints?

Repressors can already have units shoot of them, as can most of the drukhari and Harlequin vehicles. There's really no need to do fire points again.

My point is that everything used to have them... Chimeras, Rhinos, etc. in addition to rules for open-topped. In 8th they appear to have done away with fire points, given the Chimera a special rule to cover models shooting from inside it, and let open topped cover everything else. Maybe bringing them back is no big deal, just write it up as a special rule in the vehicle stats, but it does raise the question of why we can no longer shoot out of Rhino hatches. It just seems like it's a rule GW wanted to see the end of but FW is keeping it alive, and I'm wondering if it makes the transition if GW adopts the Repressor.

 MacPhail wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
Cool, so precedent says it's possible... I'd forgotten about the Baneblade. So the remaining question is whether they want to mess with balancing fire points in 8th or whether they'll go some other direction.

...why would they need to deal with firepoints?

Repressors can already have units shoot of them, as can most of the drukhari and Harlequin vehicles. There's really no need to do fire points again.

My point is that everything used to have them... Chimeras, Rhinos, etc. in addition to rules for open-topped. In 8th they appear to have done away with fire points, given the Chimera a special rule to cover models shooting from inside it, and let open topped cover everything else. Maybe bringing them back is no big deal, just write it up as a special rule in the vehicle stats, but it does raise the question of why we can no longer shoot out of Rhino hatches. It just seems like it's a rule GW wanted to see the end of but FW is keeping it alive, and I'm wondering if it makes the transition if GW adopts the Repressor.

I still have this weird feeling that GW is going to be playing a long game of phasing out the Rhino. It's not going to be this year, or next year, or even the year after that, but what we will see are fewer and fewer kits that use the Rhino chassis. Yes the Custodes and Sisters of Silence, some of the newest factions, still use it, and yes the Stalker and Hunter came out not very long ago using the Rhino chassis... but I still have this gut feeling that eventually all of the purpose that the Rhino served will be replaced by other more specialized vehicles, like the Primaris Repulsor.

This feeling I have is why I feel that things like the Repressor and Immolator might be the last of the Rhino chassis upgrades. I could be completely wrong, it's just a hunch I have.

A.T. wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
A Repressor upgrade would be one sprue, probably with room for Exorcist parts.

Though the repressor is notably different from the immolator/exorcist - the roof pieces have nothing in common. There is nothing that would suggest a shared sprue as nothing more than icons would be used by both.

It really depends what they decide to do with them. I don't expect copies of previous models, aside from sharing a Rhino chassis.

 John Prins wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
A Repressor upgrade would be one sprue, probably with room for Exorcist parts.

Though the repressor is notably different from the immolator/exorcist - the roof pieces have nothing in common. There is nothing that would suggest a shared sprue as nothing more than icons would be used by both.

It really depends what they decide to do with them. I don't expect copies of previous models, aside from sharing a Rhino chassis.

If GW dose do the Repressor, it would be cool to get some sisters re-styling of the roof addition like how some of the ShapeWays bitz have done.

 MacPhail wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
Cool, so precedent says it's possible... I'd forgotten about the Baneblade. So the remaining question is whether they want to mess with balancing fire points in 8th or whether they'll go some other direction.

...why would they need to deal with firepoints?

Repressors can already have units shoot of them, as can most of the drukhari and Harlequin vehicles. There's really no need to do fire points again.

My point is that everything used to have them... Chimeras, Rhinos, etc. in addition to rules for open-topped. In 8th they appear to have done away with fire points, given the Chimera a special rule to cover models shooting from inside it, and let open topped cover everything else. Maybe bringing them back is no big deal, just write it up as a special rule in the vehicle stats, but it does raise the question of why we can no longer shoot out of Rhino hatches. It just seems like it's a rule GW wanted to see the end of but FW is keeping it alive, and I'm wondering if it makes the transition if GW adopts the Repressor.

Why wouldn't they just reprint the 'open topped' rule but call it like...'oh hey, this tank has windows!' and limit the number of people that can shoot out to 6? It's not like open topped is a USR. Look at all the different names they gave deepstrike. The rule the repressor currently has is just open-topped but without any of the restriction that make open-topped balanced.

It seems to me that you're still associating being able to shoot out a tank with fire-points and that's just not how it is anymore. The only functional difference between fire-points and open-topped is the name.

As for GW wanting to see the 'end' of shooting out of vehicles, I really think you're making an overly dramatic conclusion off of very little evidence. Who knows why they decided to not let people shoot out of rhinos or chimeras or w/e but I sincerely doubt it was because they straight up wanted to wash their hands of things shooting out of vehicles.

Well with Trukks and DE pirate ships, open topped gives them a lot more shots coming out. So the trade off for less shots is less restrictions on those shots. All SM and SoB Rhinos should get the exact same worded rule for Repressors except 2 models may fire instead of 6.

ERJAK wrote:
Why wouldn't they just reprint the 'open topped' rule but call it like...'oh hey, this tank has windows!' and limit the number of people that can shoot out to 6? It's not like open topped is a USR. Look at all the different names they gave deepstrike. The rule the repressor currently has is just open-topped but without any of the restriction that make open-topped balanced.

It seems to me that you're still associating being able to shoot out a tank with fire-points and that's just not how it is anymore. The only functional difference between fire-points and open-topped is the name.

As for GW wanting to see the 'end' of shooting out of vehicles, I really think you're making an overly dramatic conclusion off of very little evidence. Who knows why they decided to not let people shoot out of rhinos or chimeras or w/e but I sincerely doubt it was because they straight up wanted to wash their hands of things shooting out of vehicles.

I don't think I'm being dramatic and I don't think the bar for evidence is particularly high when making theoretical inferences about game design and intent. That said, you make some good points, and I think I'm convinced. I've been looking at 8th as an outgrowth of previous editions and need to shake the USR mindset. I do look at 8th as a deliberately streamlined edition with a lot of caution against carrying over aspects of the game that don't favor quick and easy play. In the same spirit as "everything can wound everything" I don't think it's crazy to read another 8th ed. universal principle to be "only models on the table affect the game," and it's clear that fire points challenge that. But in 8th the datasheets are self contained and a rule may or may not show up on various places under various names. Maybe a well written shoot-from-your-tank rule fits easily into the guiding principles. If the Repressor's point cost reflects its value over 5-7 turns of dispensing the Emperor's judgment, then that's good enough.

A related question... does any iteration of open topped (orks, deldar, etc.) still make passengers vulnerable to flame weapons? I had so much fun killing dark eldar in 7th with 4x heavy flamer Rets. I suspect not, but I'm in a pretty small meta and don't face open topped much.

 deviantduck wrote:
Well with Trukks and DE pirate ships, open topped gives them a lot more shots coming out. So the trade off for less shots is less restrictions on those shots. All SM and SoB Rhinos should get the exact same worded rule for Repressors except 2 models may fire instead of 6.

Why would you ever take a razorback then? For 12 more points you could put a dev squad with 2 lascannons in the back of rhino and have essentially a 15 wound razorback that doesn't degrade its profile, can advance and shoot, and can't be stopped by melee.

I don't really see any big pressing need to give rhinos or w/e fire-points personally. Yeah they use to have but...meh. Not a big deal. I'd actually prefer that they just get a cheaper hull anyway.