Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Tale as old as time, historical company goes into fantasy when they notice they can charge more per figure

What makes fantasy minis so much more expensive to produce than historical minis? Please be specific.

A lot of things, for example definition of the sculpts, different sculpting work, more working hours, number of parts and accessories and more.

In past we released historical figures thanks to recycling parts of other plastic sets: otherwise it was impossible to release them. The new fantasy production will not follow this way and each plastic kit will have different parts from others (the torso of a northmen archer is different by the torso of a northmen warrior and so on) and of course this increase a lot the costs.

Who will join to our campaign will do that because think our figures are nice and wants some.
Who will not join our campaign because don't like our models, don't like our prices or other right reasons, will not do that. I think there is nothing of bad. But absolutely there will not be a change of the project to satisfy all the different opinions and wishes, it is simply impossible to do. This campaign will be the result of the best we can offer at the moment, if there will be enough people supporting us we will be happy to release these figures otherwise the project will be cancelled and we will continue to work on our usual market.

You have Steppe Warriors and mounted Mongols who share some parts with each other and no other kits. Their sculpting is heroic in scale, but nicely detailed. Historical prices.

You have (upcoming) zombies on foot and mounted that presumably share parts with each other and no other kits. Their sculpting is heroic in scale but nicely detailed. Way more expensive to produce somehow.

When I asked you to be specific it was because I really don't see why one set is so much more expensive than the other, and your answer did not clarify. Why do fantasy sculpts require more sculpting, longer hours and more parts/accessories?

And why are you going all out on Northmen kits? You already sell boxes of humans with appropriate gear that will directly compete with your fantasy humans. I don't see why you are sinking so many resources into a kit that will look unattractive next to your extant kits.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
You have Steppe Warriors and mounted Mongols who share some parts with each other and no other kits. Their sculpting is heroic in scale, but nicely detailed. Historical prices.

You have (upcoming) zombies on foot and mounted that presumably share parts with each other and no other kits. Their sculpting is heroic in scale but nicely detailed. Way more expensive to produce somehow.

A part that in my previous answers (and in the description of the box content) i told clearly that there will NOT be parts in common between the plastic boxes we are doing (so you are wrong when you say that our zombies will share parts with each other), the difference of the detail quality between the 2 examples you did, is tremendous. If you are not able to see that, i have no way to help you in understanding why there are different costs. Sorry mate.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
You have Steppe Warriors and mounted Mongols who share some parts with each other and no other kits. Their sculpting is heroic in scale, but nicely detailed. Historical prices.

You have (upcoming) zombies on foot and mounted that presumably share parts with each other and no other kits. Their sculpting is heroic in scale but nicely detailed. Way more expensive to produce somehow.

When I asked you to be specific it was because I really don't see why one set is so much more expensive than the other, and your answer did not clarify. Why do fantasy sculpts require more sculpting, longer hours and more parts/accessories?

And why are you going all out on Northmen kits? You already sell boxes of humans with appropriate gear that will directly compete with your fantasy humans. I don't see why you are sinking so many resources into a kit that will look unattractive next to your extant kits.

I do think it's a bit of a missed opportunity to have one of the two factions for the KS be humans when there is already pretty extensive range of humans. You even already have fantasy humans with your Albion knights and they'd be a natural opposition force for these new undead units. It would have been great to see well proportioned properly scaled dwarves instead. Too many companies make giant dwarves and if you made them scaled to your existing human range they'd use less material and you could pass on the savings with lower prices, killing two birds with one stone.

I do appreciate tailoring the KS more towards skirmish size games than mass battle games. Games like Lion Rampant and LotR are fun and easy to play with my kids in small space and reasonable timeframe and it's so much easier to collect a variety of warbands instead of full armies. I've passed on some KS projects that I thought were really cool but I can't justify buying 50 or 100 more miniatures to add the pile. It's only getting harder to keep my wife from noticing just how many plastic sprues of stuff I have hidden in closets throughout the house (although it's always nice when you're cleaning or looking for something else and you stumble across minis you totally forgot you owned).

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
You have Steppe Warriors and mounted Mongols who share some parts with each other and no other kits. Their sculpting is heroic in scale, but nicely detailed. Historical prices.

You have (upcoming) zombies on foot and mounted that presumably share parts with each other and no other kits. Their sculpting is heroic in scale but nicely detailed. Way more expensive to produce somehow.

When I asked you to be specific it was because I really don't see why one set is so much more expensive than the other, and your answer did not clarify. Why do fantasy sculpts require more sculpting, longer hours and more parts/accessories?

And why are you going all out on Northmen kits? You already sell boxes of humans with appropriate gear that will directly compete with your fantasy humans. I don't see why you are sinking so many resources into a kit that will look unattractive next to your extant kits.

Bob, I think that Lord Ekard has already answered your questions as best he can. I will try to make a list of his answers as I understand them:
1) There will be more options/bits in their fantasy kits than their historical kits. Plastic mold makers often charge per cavity on the sprue. This makes the mold more expensive to tool. This is why Mantic originally did bare bones sprues with basically 1-2 options for their orcs.
2) There will be more body sculpts/poses than in their historical which typically only have five poses per box. We've already seen at least double that for the zombie kit. This makes the mold more expensive to tool.
3) The number of bits and their detail will also be greater than their historicals. Things which can be a visual suggestion at 28mm have to be fully detailed out at a more heroic scale. This costs sculptor time.

Prestor Jon wrote:

I do think it's a bit of a missed opportunity to have one of the two factions for the KS be humans when there is already pretty extensive range of humans. You even already have fantasy humans with your Albion knights and they'd be a natural opposition force for these new undead units.

Honestly we thought about, but we think that our fantasy sculpts are a lot better of our current fantasy range (that suffer a lot the old age of the design and the limit of recycling other older historical parts). We simply believe that our new fantasy models are better than our old Albion models (that will remain on the market and will be however inside our fantasy ruleset within our pegasus knights etc)

Ok, thanks, both of you. I see now.

However, I must admit I don't see the difference in detail quality. But then, I love Bones, so maybe that's on me.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Ok, thanks, both of you. I see now.

However, I must admit I don't see the difference in detail quality. But then, I love Bones, so maybe that's on me.

I'm no expert but is the detail in question the decay and damage on the zombies that is being sculpted onto the figures? Is it a matter of a normal breastplate costs less to sculpt/tool/cast because it's a flat surface whereas the zombie figure has a hole in the armor with intestines inside?

It seems natural to me that a fantasy kit would take longer to design than a historical kit (unless looking for absolute accuracy in an obsure part of history) because you need to (or should) spread your sources.

I would be happy paying 30€ for 24, and depending on the sprue 20€ for 12 would be okay, although at that price it is around the same price as GW.

I think whatever Frostgrave is priced at is the maximum you can reasonably charge here.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I think whatever Frostgrave is priced at is the maximum you can reasonably charge here.

I find the Frostgrave plastics to be on the outside of what I would pay for those kinds of models. I do, however, think that these new humans are far more detailed and have the right "aesthetic" (i.e. non-historical) for a fantasy setting. I tried and got rid of my historicals from Fireforge, they didnt look right.

I'll wait till these hit retail, and see what they're charging for how many. I use Perry's plastics as a comparison. If they're in that ballpark, then I usually buy several boxes, if they're Frostrgrave prices, I don't buy any. (That being said, if the Frostgrave Gnoll sculpts were better, I would have bought loads of them at any price, but, oh well.).

I am liking the looks of these. Its the prices that will decide. And I'm sure the KS will offer some value, but I'm not trusting the wait, and costs/value based on a KS are meaningless. Its retail that I follow nowadays. Too many bad KSs.

That's a nice comparison to the ASOI&F mini similar height but a bit "chunkier" sorry more heroic scale

Lord Ekard I appreciate you taking the time to address our queries.

I'll wait for a scale photo that doesn't make GW and Perry minis look the same size. If the Northmen are closer to GW than to Perry, they'll be more attractive. Hopefully we'll see some scale shots with Conquest and Mantic's Vanguard plastics soon, too.

I need those zombie dogs!!! I needed some for a custom campaign a year or two ago and sculpted and cast my own. They came out pretty good and I can make as many as I need, but it would be nice to replace them with something really good.

@Lord Ekard,

I am happy with the increase of quality / design of those new fantasy sculpts.
I wouldn't mind an increase in price for your historical kits if it means that they would look so nice as those fantasy miniatures!

20 - 25 euro is more than okay!

I'm quite surprised at the level of interrogation to be honest. Thought it was fairly plain from the pictures what a step up from the Fireforge's existing historical kits (which aren't bad by any means) these were and the heroic scaling makes them noticeably bigger too i.e. less sprue space.

 DaveC wrote:
[
Lord Ekard I appreciate you taking the time to address our queries.

we are hobbysts too, i'm trying to do my best to solve all the doubts i can


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tonhel wrote:
@Lord Ekard,

I am happy with the increase of quality / design of those new fantasy sculpts.
I wouldn't mind an increase in price for your historical kits if it means that they would look so nice as those fantasy miniatures!

20 - 25 euro is more than okay!

Don't worry and thanks for your support

 sockwithaticket wrote:
I'm quite surprised at the level of interrogation to be honest. Thought it was fairly plain from the pictures what a step up from the Fireforge's existing historical kits (which aren't bad by any means) these were and the heroic scaling makes them noticeably bigger too i.e. less sprue space.

I did not find it plain. I have a bunch of Fireforge's minis, mostly Mongols, Knights and Foot Sergeants, and didn't notice any difference in quality at all. And stating that a closeup of a render looks plainly better than a production miniature doesn't really carry much weight. Or are you referring to the professionally painted Northmen minis?

Also, are they heroic scale? That scale shot makes them look smaller than the CMON mini and on par with Perry plastics and Perry Empire.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 sockwithaticket wrote:
I'm quite surprised at the level of interrogation to be honest. Thought it was fairly plain from the pictures what a step up from the Fireforge's existing historical kits (which aren't bad by any means) these were and the heroic scaling makes them noticeably bigger too i.e. less sprue space.

I did not find it plain. I have a bunch of Fireforge's minis, mostly Mongols, Knights and Foot Sergeants, and didn't notice any difference in quality at all. And stating that a closeup of a render looks plainly better than a production miniature doesn't really carry much weight. Or are you referring to the professionally painted Northmen minis?

Also, are they heroic scale? That scale shot makes them look smaller than the CMON mini and on par with Perry plastics and Perry Empire.

I'm referring to the finished models, not the renders. Don't see what the paint has to do with anything, while very solid high t tabletop jobs they're nothing extraordinary masking the sculpt (for better or worse).

Even without seeing them side by side with other products, just looking at them in relation to the base, they're clearly chunkier than existing Fireforge stuff. Add in hands that seem as big as faces (best demonstrated on the archer) and we're definitely looking at heroic scale.

Differences on the scale shot above seem very definitive to me. The CMON model is an outlier, a giant; both taller and broader even than the GW model which is definitely heroic scale. The FF Northmen are squatting a bit whcih loses them height and the Perry models are on more elvated basing. However, compare the Northman on the left to the FF historical figure next to him and his legs are nearly twice as wide. Northman next to the Perry models: trousered legs are thicker than armoured, chest is broader and head noticeably bigger. Isolated the photo and zoomed in a bit, held a ruler to the screen and the Northman chest is about 2.5 cm wide while the middle front Perry is about 1.7cm.

I want to see some Northmen with the Frostgrave plastics.

That'll be where the real fun starts if I can mash all those parts together as well...

I remain overwhelmingly enthused. The initial sculpts look heroic chunky, and if they were in print, would be among my favorite ranges going. I'll definitely be dipping my feet into the KS, just release the darn thing, already!

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I want to see some Northmen with the Frostgrave plastics.

That'll be where the real fun starts if I can mash all those parts together as well...

Hoping they're a bit taller than Frostgrave tbh, which they seem to be based on the comparison image that popped up that made them look similar in height to the GW Greatsword but in a wide-legged stance(ie, they're actually taller than the Greatsword). Though what would be nice would be a dead-on shot taken with a ruler next to the model, so we can see exactly.

To me they look scaled almost exacly to the GW Empire model, with slightly smaller hands (which is very welcome and in line with more modern GW stuff). The Perry sculpts look positively Elfin in comparison, as they should. I'm very much looking forward to this range and especially to seeing people incorporate them into their AoS armies. I've looked at Fireforge minis before as I like their sculpts in general, but the scale has kept me from buying them for use in fantasy games.

Dunno how many will end up in AoS armies given how hard they're trying to depart from anything even vaguely mundane in aesthetic terms, but the Bretonnians FB group will be fairly frothing for the Northmen I should think.

Pretty sure most of the figures sold will end up in KoW, 9th age and oldhammer armies, not AoS. And in all our piles of shame, of course.

I can see a step up in quality. I like the previews so far. I like the aesthetic. The quantities in a box are fine for me. One box is a small squad, need a bigger regiment I will buy two boxes. Just waiting for the KS to see if the prices are reasonable. I don't expect them to sell 40 in a box for £20 like the Perry stuff. If they set a price at GW (12 for £25 to £30) level I would most likely skip it. Somewhere in between would be fine for me.

Thanks for the previews so far, keep going, knowing that many of us are excited and looking forward to the KS.

I personally prefer the the non-heroic historical look over GWs chunkiness, but each to his own.

 Huginn wrote:
I can see a step up in quality. I like the previews so far. I like the aesthetic. The quantities in a box are fine for me. One box is a small squad, need a bigger regiment I will buy two boxes. Just waiting for the KS to see if the prices are reasonable. I don't expect them to sell 40 in a box for £20 like the Perry stuff. If they set a price at GW (12 for £25 to £30) level I would most likely skip it. Somewhere in between would be fine for me.

Thanks for the previews so far, keep going, knowing that many of us are excited and looking forward to the KS.

Ideally it would be something like 20 for £20 or £25.

Love em.