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I want a kult of speed that ain't gunu cost me a small fortune! I like to keep a hold of my teeth!

 lolman1c wrote:
As for making Orks larger in the Beats Arises book... i think this was a kinda lazy and narrow idea... "GIANT ORKS!!! THAT'S HOW WE WILL MAKE THEM COOL!"... No... you're just copying from fantasy at that point. As a friend told me. It's just Flanderization of the Ork's aspect that they grow tougher and smarter the more they fight. Ork's are special to 40k because they're not as similar to LOTR Orks as you might think and by just turning them into monsters (beasts) you're ruining the fun magic behind them. I like the idea that Meks grow smart and make some awesome technology because of experience and experimentation... Not because they just unlocked level 999 abilities in their skill trees. We have to remember (some real Ork lore here... none of this headcanon stuff!) Orks (after the Old Ones) were a slave race to the Brain Boyz who were the ones who designed the Orks. They (unlike the Old Ones) had plenty of time to interject their own genetics and abilities into the Ork's so their race may live on through them (because they were all slowly dying of a plague). They focused on technology and creativity and not making big trolls!

Also how the hell would a gigantic Stompa Sized Ork in the cult of Speed supposed to be able to ride his kustom bike he spent most his life and teeth making? You're making some very sad Ork bikers GW!!!!

Unless you've actually read The Beast Arises, the idea of "it's just giant orks!" is patently false.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
As for making Orks larger in the Beats Arises book... i think this was a kinda lazy and narrow idea... "GIANT ORKS!!! THAT'S HOW WE WILL MAKE THEM COOL!"... No... you're just copying from fantasy at that point. As a friend told me. It's just Flanderization of the Ork's aspect that they grow tougher and smarter the more they fight. Ork's are special to 40k because they're not as similar to LOTR Orks as you might think and by just turning them into monsters (beasts) you're ruining the fun magic behind them. I like the idea that Meks grow smart and make some awesome technology because of experience and experimentation... Not because they just unlocked level 999 abilities in their skill trees. We have to remember (some real Ork lore here... none of this headcanon stuff!) Orks (after the Old Ones) were a slave race to the Brain Boyz who were the ones who designed the Orks. They (unlike the Old Ones) had plenty of time to interject their own genetics and abilities into the Ork's so their race may live on through them (because they were all slowly dying of a plague). They focused on technology and creativity and not making big trolls!

Also how the hell would a gigantic Stompa Sized Ork in the cult of Speed supposed to be able to ride his kustom bike he spent most his life and teeth making? You're making some very sad Ork bikers GW!!!!

Unless you've actually read The Beast Arises, the idea of "it's just giant orks!" is patently false.

I never said "It's just giant orks!" I said "It's just Flanderization of the Ork's aspect that they grow tougher and smarter the more they fight".

 lolman1c wrote:
As for making Orks larger in the Beats Arises book... i think this was a kinda lazy and narrow idea... "GIANT ORKS!!! THAT'S HOW WE WILL MAKE THEM COOL!"... No... you're just copying from fantasy at that point. As a friend told me. It's just Flanderization of the Ork's aspect that they grow tougher and smarter the more they fight. Ork's are special to 40k because they're not as similar to LOTR Orks as you might think and by just turning them into monsters (beasts) you're ruining the fun magic behind them. I like the idea that Meks grow smart and make some awesome technology because of experience and experimentation... Not because they just unlocked level 999 abilities in their skill trees. We have to remember (some real Ork lore here... none of this headcanon stuff!) Orks (after the Old Ones) were a slave race to the Brain Boyz who were the ones who designed the Orks. They (unlike the Old Ones) had plenty of time to interject their own genetics and abilities into the Ork's so their race may live on through them (because they were all slowly dying of a plague). They focused on technology and creativity and not making big trolls!

Also how the hell would a gigantic Stompa Sized Ork in the cult of Speed supposed to be able to ride his kustom bike he spent most his life and teeth making? You're making some very sad Ork bikers GW!!!!

EH, I dunno where you're getting this, but orks have always worked like that. Them tinkering and figuring things out over time is your headcannon. In the fluff they have always gotten smarter and bigger as a direct result of fighting more and getting more buddies to join in. Some of them get bigger and meaner, others get smarter, others get trickier, and others get more medically proficient.

and if a stompa sized ork wants a warbike, hes gonna get one... Ain't no meks around big enough to say no when he tells them to make it; an ork that big does not need to scrimp and save for it either. He takes the teef he needs to pay anyone to make it... Not that you'd have to pay... Every mek in my army would kill for a chance to make a warbike the size of a titan.

I think Orks don't get smarter, they get more Kunnin'

 davou wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
As for making Orks larger in the Beats Arises book... i think this was a kinda lazy and narrow idea... "GIANT ORKS!!! THAT'S HOW WE WILL MAKE THEM COOL!"... No... you're just copying from fantasy at that point. As a friend told me. It's just Flanderization of the Ork's aspect that they grow tougher and smarter the more they fight. Ork's are special to 40k because they're not as similar to LOTR Orks as you might think and by just turning them into monsters (beasts) you're ruining the fun magic behind them. I like the idea that Meks grow smart and make some awesome technology because of experience and experimentation... Not because they just unlocked level 999 abilities in their skill trees. We have to remember (some real Ork lore here... none of this headcanon stuff!) Orks (after the Old Ones) were a slave race to the Brain Boyz who were the ones who designed the Orks. They (unlike the Old Ones) had plenty of time to interject their own genetics and abilities into the Ork's so their race may live on through them (because they were all slowly dying of a plague). They focused on technology and creativity and not making big trolls!

Also how the hell would a gigantic Stompa Sized Ork in the cult of Speed supposed to be able to ride his kustom bike he spent most his life and teeth making? You're making some very sad Ork bikers GW!!!!

EH, I dunno where you're getting this, but orks have always worked like that. Them tinkering and figuring things out over time is your headcannon. In the fluff they have always gotten smarter and bigger as a direct result of fighting more and getting more buddies to join in. Some of them get bigger and meaner, others get smarter, others get trickier, and others get more medically proficient.

and if a stompa sized ork wants a warbike, hes gonna get one... Ain't no meks around big enough to say no when he tells them to make it; an ork that big does not need to scrimp and save for it either. He takes the teef he needs to pay anyone to make it... Not that you'd have to pay... Every mek in my army would kill for a chance to make a warbike the size of a titan.

It has always been more than just that or maybe GW has just retconned it out of existence since the old days... Orks do gain nutrition and skills from fighting but they get a lot more through experience and this aspect is largely ignored to make mindless killing machines (which is a role I always just associated with the young Ork Boyz). There are a few good threads out there that go into all the misconceptions modern GW has pushed with a lot of references to older books.

If this is the case then it's funny how the real worlds mirrors the 40k... Documentation and lore is lost to time as the people who wrote it vanish and new people come on who didn't read the old stuff. XD

 lolman1c wrote:

 davou wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
As for making Orks larger in the Beats Arises book... i think this was a kinda lazy and narrow idea... "GIANT ORKS!!! THAT'S HOW WE WILL MAKE THEM COOL!"... No... you're just copying from fantasy at that point. As a friend told me. It's just Flanderization of the Ork's aspect that they grow tougher and smarter the more they fight. Ork's are special to 40k because they're not as similar to LOTR Orks as you might think and by just turning them into monsters (beasts) you're ruining the fun magic behind them. I like the idea that Meks grow smart and make some awesome technology because of experience and experimentation... Not because they just unlocked level 999 abilities in their skill trees. We have to remember (some real Ork lore here... none of this headcanon stuff!) Orks (after the Old Ones) were a slave race to the Brain Boyz who were the ones who designed the Orks. They (unlike the Old Ones) had plenty of time to interject their own genetics and abilities into the Ork's so their race may live on through them (because they were all slowly dying of a plague). They focused on technology and creativity and not making big trolls!

Also how the hell would a gigantic Stompa Sized Ork in the cult of Speed supposed to be able to ride his kustom bike he spent most his life and teeth making? You're making some very sad Ork bikers GW!!!!

EH, I dunno where you're getting this, but orks have always worked like that. Them tinkering and figuring things out over time is your headcannon. In the fluff they have always gotten smarter and bigger as a direct result of fighting more and getting more buddies to join in. Some of them get bigger and meaner, others get smarter, others get trickier, and others get more medically proficient.

and if a stompa sized ork wants a warbike, hes gonna get one... Ain't no meks around big enough to say no when he tells them to make it; an ork that big does not need to scrimp and save for it either. He takes the teef he needs to pay anyone to make it... Not that you'd have to pay... Every mek in my army would kill for a chance to make a warbike the size of a titan.

It has always been more than just that or maybe GW has just retconned it out of existence since the old days... Orks do gain nutrition and skills from fighting but they get a lot more through experience and this aspect is largely ignored to make mindless killing machines (which is a role I always just associated with the young Ork Boyz). There are a few good threads out there that go into all the misconceptions modern GW has pushed with a lot of references to older books.

You're misrepresenting the fluff. At least as far back as 3rd ed ork codex (oldest I've got) they've always gotten bigger and more threatening the bigger and more threatening they've gotten.

Don't try and make it seem like experience does not play into it, because it certainly does. The 'beasts' on the slaughter series didn't get to be three stories tall because they inherited it genetically last week. They spent a lifetime (or more) fighting other nasty orks and each other. An ork that lives to 300 years old on barren asteroid punching rocks is never going to make it to nob sized... But a boy that has to deal with having his ass beat on by an army of warbosses for a decade will probably be warboss sized hiself by the end of it.

Suggesting that the fluff has been different in the past is misleading. Orks are unique in that they get bigger and stronger as a result of getting beaten on and beating on people. The beast series wasn't lazy in that way, it respected the fluff; the orks therein were terrifying because they made it past that meatgrinder and out into a gian galaxy spanning waaagh.

They dont have R&D teams comming up with amazing choppas, or academies teaching ork martial arts and militarycraft. They just beat on each other and things start to click. You punch a mek in the head because the shoota he handed you sucks, and the next one will suck less Or he's bigger than you and you get punched back (then you get bigger). When its your turn to see the painboy and his last patient is a gibbering ooze, you have your giant buddies threaten to feed his face to a giant squigg and it goes better.

Violence is the driver in ork society, not progress

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying that what you are saying is wrong. I am saying it has been pushed too much to the point you have gigantic Orks the size of buildings! It was an over expression of one aspect of the Orks. What would have been interesting to see was Orks that were Large (maybe dreadnought sized large) but focus was on their intelligence. I understand they spoke fluent Gothic in the books (they even sent ambassadors to the Imperials looking for terms of surrender) but the imagery just focused on the idea that every Ork just keeps growing to be that size is something I have a problem with. "Bigger is better!" is something I see a lot from Gw and their writers. A mech could be in a thousand battles against a thousand races but might not have the same drive and intelligence as another mech who has been in less battles but somehow turned a moon into a weapon! Orks can be just as much individuals than any other race. Look as Ghaz! He wasn't just a Warboss who stomped his way up... he was a nobody Boy who given a driving force that made him better and bigger than the other Orks! Any Warboss can smash a lot but Ghaz has a mission and is an individual in a green tide! If they just turn him into a "big ork!" then he'll just be a big bad orky boss... not an individual who has special characteristics relating to him. It's like Girly man... I just see him as Pappa smerf now thanks to GW... I don't even have a real clue about him as an individual.

This might just be me but I never really felt like the Beasts were Individuals... Even the Imperium makes this mistake. Orks used to be full of individual characters and even the models represented this (just look at all the different clan models and characters you sued to be able to get). Now they're just "Big Orks" with names I don't even remember.

In terms of "R&D teams comming up with amazing choppa" they actually kinda do. They're called Gretchins.

 lolman1c wrote:
I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying that what you are saying is wrong. I am saying it has been pushed too much to the point you have gigantic Orks the size of buildings! It was an over expression of one aspect of the Orks.

That's Black Library for you. Those guys have restraint of Michael Bay on crack. They have over hyped their marines to such a degree that they need to write house sized orks to challenge them.

Okay thats fair.... But at the same time this is a game where we have 9 foot tall dudes..... Who are the progeny of 12 foot tall dudes, who can throw tanks around and be hit in the face with weapons that break buildings down and get up afterwards.

And to cut them a BIT more slack.... It seems like the primork thing is rare as hell.... Maybe ever rare'er than humans and their emperor. Orks are stupid populous, and there have been almost no primeorks.

At the very least, the ork Ubermench thing fits their narrative and isnt just a random supergod born in 6000 bc

 davou wrote:
Okay thats fair.... But at the same time this is a game where we have 9 foot tall dudes..... Who are the progeny of 12 foot tall dudes, who can throw tanks around and be hit in the face with weapons that break buildings down and get up afterwards.

That's BL stuff. Studio marines are seven feet tall, and I don't remember any mention of any tank throwing in codices. Though these days BL fanwank has polluted the studio fluff too, and we have giant primarchs running around...

 davou wrote:
Okay thats fair.... But at the same time this is a game where we have 9 foot tall dudes..... Who are the progeny of 12 foot tall dudes, who can throw tanks around and be hit in the face with weapons that break buildings down and get up afterwards.

And to cut them a BIT more slack.... It seems like the primork thing is rare as hell.... Maybe ever rare'er than humans and their emperor. Orks are stupid populous, and there have been almost no primeorks.

With regards to the 9ft becoming 12ft... as I say... "Big is better" Gw is just illustrating how cool Marines are through their height and not actually through giving us some cool marine characters. Would have been nice if they had given us the story of just one primaries born into a world of war but I don't think they even have any named characters outside of HQ's (none in the lore...). But look at IG! They're small and yet you can bring up a bunch of low ranking individuals in the lore who people grew connected to. That Baneblade book, for example, just tells the story of a small team in a Babeblade and even has a part where they fight a single Ork (if my memory servers me right). That single Ork had more character than I have seen in a while from GW.

I always kinda thought (now this is my own headcannon) that Orks eventually become the Korks (what they were meant to be) before they kinda just became lazy. There is even a lot of evidence to suggest the Snottlings were the ones who created Orks once the Old Ones were done with them (well there hasn't been any in a while)... Now to think that the smallest and must underrated aspect of Ork society was actually the most important would make one heck of a story!

“According to legend, the intelligent lost race of Snotlings, known as the Brainboyz, were still diminutive, so they bred a race of less-intelligent, but tougher, larger and more brutal creatures to do their work and fight their wars. These were the Orks and Gretchin.”
(Waaargh! The Orks, pg.6)

Hey guys, kindly take any further discussion regarding the fluff of those zany killer space mushrooms to the relevant subforum please, thanks!

 Blackie wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Maybe not a line, but 'a release' that isn't just a character like the necron guy recently, but a couple of units.

But necrons don't have units or characters that belong to the 90s like the warboss or buggies. Necrons are all quite recent models, they don't need anything new. What about finecast monopose squads? Those are something that sould be updated as well and necrons only have flayed ones IIRC other than characters. Orks have kommandos and tankbustas that no one buys because they're very expensive, monopose and made in finecast, any ork player kitbashes those units using regular boyz because the original kits are terrible.
.

But yeah... In conclusion, just making Big Ork models is a bad move over making cool unique models that you can characterise yourself.

 Dysartes wrote:
As AndrewGPaul mentioned, when this was released the Skorcha was a different vehicle entirely - a wartrakk with a trailer, from memory - see the painted example here.

Yes, but this thing doesn't look anything like vehicle in art Iinked, which is closest to buggy out of all ork models.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
That looks more like an artist's impression of a multi-melta, to me. Also, a Scorcha is based on a Wartrakk (the kettenrad-looking halftrack), not a Warbuggy.

Um, no. Multiple rows of round holes on a shroud linking both barrels always meant flamer IIRC. Like this one:



or this:



Now, the thing on buggy might be MM (which would be kinda wrong as even earliest MM looked like modern one, two barrels with long holes in cross pattern), but the thing in art is definitely a scorcha, and looking at early ork weapons you won't find MM, but their heavy flamer looks remarkably like buggy weapon, long straight pipe hole with fuel tanks, no cones anywhere.

my 3rd edition codex says that it could take a flamer, shoota, ect... no metla. Might be different before though.

I thought the gas tanks on the warbuggy's weapon was a nod to Mad Max Road Warrior were some of the guns were air fired.

Guys! It came out in 2nd Ed. It was a Multi-Melta.

End of story.

 lolman1c wrote:
my 3rd edition codex says that it could take a flamer, shoota, ect... no metla. Might be different before though.

It was, lolman1c - remember that the Warbuggy and War Trak kits were released during 2nd edition.

History of the Buggy, Trak and Skorcha

Alrighty then...

During Rogue Trader, the vehicles for Orks - other than the Battlewagon - were released in metal, not plastic. And I believe they were a pain to keep together.

If we go back to the 1991 Catalogue, we can see the metal War Buggy, Scorcher and War Trak.

If you zoom in, you'll note that even at this point flamer weapons only come with the Scorcher, and neither the Buggy nor Trak have one in their parts listing.

By the 1995/6 Annual, the metal vehicles are no longer on offer, but we can see the "current" Ork design for the multi-melta on their Heavy Weapons page. Note the sort of - shape markings on the multi-melta barrel.

By the 1997 Annual, we have the plastic buggy (which means is it now over 20 years old...) - note the markings on the barrel are a - shape rather than circular.

By the 1999 Annual, we have the plastic Trukk, Trak and the plastic/metal hybrid Trak Scorcha - note the design of the flamer on the Scorcha compared to the weapon on the buggy. They are definitely different weapons at this point.

Codex: Orks (2nd edition) has the Scorcher as armed with a Scorcher (shockingly), while the options for the War Buggy are listed as "Heavy plasma gun, lascannon, twin-linked autocannon and multi-melta".

Where the confusion seems to creep in is in the army lists in the 3rd edition CRB - War Buggies/War Traks are one unit entry, where the weapon options are twin-linked rokkit launcher, scorcher or twin-linked big shoota. The only difference in Codex: Orks seems to be the addition of the mega-blasta as a weapon - though I can't seem to find the stats in the book, oddly.

My guess is that what was the multi-melta was intended to be used as the mega-blasta at that point.

...and I may have been typing this too long.

Hell, I remember Wartrakks with Lascannons being fired by Orks with German Officer hats.....

Still funny how Warbuggies are from 2nd edition 40k, and Wartrakks and Scorchas are still leftovers from Gorkamorka.

I guess that because some of these minis are older than the people playing the game they forget (or just don't know) that once upon a time Orks used to use the same weapons as the Imperium.

Ork Boyz had Bolt Pistols, and wielded autocannons, meltaguns, heavy plasma guns and even heavy stubbers. Ork Dreadnoughts had heavy bolters and lascannons.

This all changed when Gorkamorka changed everything to 'sluggaz', 'shootaz' and so on. Then 3rd Ed Orks came along and all that old Imperial weaponry was gone.

*Pulls H.B.M.C a rocking chair up on the porch*

"When I was a lad..."

Yeah, i had a few models with the imperium weapons. Hehe, they also had robots. That was funny. Didn't orks also have the same BS as marines as well?

 lolman1c wrote:
Yeah, i had a few models with the imperium weapons. Hehe, they also had robots. That was funny. Didn't orks also have the same BS as marines as well?

They had WS and BS of 3 in 2nd edition, with 3rd making them WS4 and BS2 as well as replacing their “Imperial” weapons with Ork-name analogues.

Okay, for the June Orks rumor to have any merit, we need to consider the following: Dark Eldar are this weekend. We all ready know the next three codex's. There is that AoS mermaid elf army to be released. We only have 87 days until the end of June.

After Dark Eldar get released there are 84 days left.

One week of previews, and one week for releases of 4 other armies. That in and of itself puts us at 56 days, if there is an army release every other week without interruption. Even if there isn't another AoS release or some other boxed game, that only leaves three spare weekends.

Are there any actual rumours in this thread?


I'm wishing for a plastic squiggoth.

 Mousemuffins wrote:
Are there any actual rumours in this thread?


I'm wishing for a plastic squiggoth.

Well considering I just purchased, assembled and painted a regular and Gargantuan squiggoth, I'd say you're wish is as close to coming true as it could possible ever be!

Not that I'd mind adding another Squiggoth or two to the herd....

Plastic squiggoths for like £40 each would be awesome! Orks heed more snakebite stuff!

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Maybe not a line, but 'a release' that isn't just a character like the necron guy recently, but a couple of units.

But necrons don't have units or characters that belong to the 90s like the warboss or buggies. Necrons are all quite recent models, they don't need anything new. What about finecast monopose squads? Those are something that sould be updated as well and necrons only have flayed ones IIRC other than characters. Orks have kommandos and tankbustas that no one buys because they're very expensive, monopose and made in finecast, any ork player kitbashes those units using regular boyz because the original kits are terrible.
.

Well they say there's no accounting for taste...

The Kommando and Tankbusta kits are excellent (I own both in metal so I'll concede the Finecrap point). You keep throwing around this phrase "belongs in the 90's". What do you even mean by this? Do you even know what you're trying to argue? Is it the monopose aspect (Take a look at the Plague Marines. I've got some bad news...)? Seeing as 90's Orks consisted of mini SS Stormboyz and Kommando models in woolly hats (Tankbustas did not exist until the 3rd ed. Ork dex which incidentally was released in 199, but I digress). The current Brian Nelson designed Ork range is ace and looks nothing like the "90's" Orks of old. The only remnants of this are the Warbuggies and Wartrakks. Both of the things Ork players are crying out to be redone.

With kits from the 90s I mean buggies, trakks, the warboss, ghaz and grotsnik. Probably the metal kopta as well. Those are all very old models and even if I like them (I really do) they look ancient, especially ghaz that is supposed to be a legendary warboss in an age in which even elves (ynnead) and girls (celestine) are bigger.

Kommandos and bustas are nice, I also own them, but do you only need 5 of them? Absolutely not, and I can't stand having two identical models in the same army You also get a rocket hammer, a pair of pistols and a nob with klaw that you may not want to use, so buying multiple of those kits costs a fortune and gives you only a few models to play with.

About the monopose aspect: maybe GW wants to promote monopose kits, I don't know that but I surely can't stand them (and in fact deathguard and primaris are IMHO among the ugliest miniatures since decades) and I wish it won't be a thing with eventual new orks releases.