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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BlackLobster wrote:
Previously you either got a good 2+ save or a 5++ save. Terminators could shrug off a lot of incoming fire. 8th has weakened them by having armour save modifers which ensure that you are not going to get decent saves for the points.

How did that weaken them? They're more durable compared to how they used to be barring VERY specific weapons (like the Autocannon and Gauss Blasters). You're only under the impression they're less durable because you didn't do the math.

How do you figure that? Previously you had a 2+ save against nearly everything, barring big anti-tank weapons. Now a weapon only has to be -1AP to reduce your save to a 3+ for example. Big guns are still going to reduce you to your invulnerable saves but small arms are a lot more effective against you now,

Most small arms have no armour modifier though, and now have to do twice the wounds to kill a Terminator. So aside from the medium weapons with sv modifiers and/or multiple damage, Terminators are more durable.

I'd also just make them cheaper. If a stock chaos termie (combi bolter and axe) became 31 points again I'd start a Black Legion terminator army the very same day

 BlackLobster wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BlackLobster wrote:
Previously you either got a good 2+ save or a 5++ save. Terminators could shrug off a lot of incoming fire. 8th has weakened them by having armour save modifers which ensure that you are not going to get decent saves for the points.

How did that weaken them? They're more durable compared to how they used to be barring VERY specific weapons (like the Autocannon and Gauss Blasters). You're only under the impression they're less durable because you didn't do the math.

How do you figure that? Previously you had a 2+ save against nearly everything, barring big anti-tank weapons. Now a weapon only has to be -1AP to reduce your save to a 3+ for example. Big guns are still going to reduce you to your invulnerable saves but small arms are a lot more effective against you now,

Twice the wounds helps ya know.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BlackLobster wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BlackLobster wrote:
Previously you either got a good 2+ save or a 5++ save. Terminators could shrug off a lot of incoming fire. 8th has weakened them by having armour save modifers which ensure that you are not going to get decent saves for the points.

How did that weaken them? They're more durable compared to how they used to be barring VERY specific weapons (like the Autocannon and Gauss Blasters). You're only under the impression they're less durable because you didn't do the math.

How do you figure that? Previously you had a 2+ save against nearly everything, barring big anti-tank weapons. Now a weapon only has to be -1AP to reduce your save to a 3+ for example. Big guns are still going to reduce you to your invulnerable saves but small arms are a lot more effective against you now,

Twice the wounds helps ya know.

Not if all the weapons hitting you are damage 2 you know

 Formosa wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BlackLobster wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BlackLobster wrote:
Previously you either got a good 2+ save or a 5++ save. Terminators could shrug off a lot of incoming fire. 8th has weakened them by having armour save modifers which ensure that you are not going to get decent saves for the points.

How did that weaken them? They're more durable compared to how they used to be barring VERY specific weapons (like the Autocannon and Gauss Blasters). You're only under the impression they're less durable because you didn't do the math.

How do you figure that? Previously you had a 2+ save against nearly everything, barring big anti-tank weapons. Now a weapon only has to be -1AP to reduce your save to a 3+ for example. Big guns are still going to reduce you to your invulnerable saves but small arms are a lot more effective against you now,

Twice the wounds helps ya know.

Not if all the weapons hitting you are damage 2 you know

Which is really how many of those weapons modifying only around 1 or 2? It isn't a lot. Then anything going beyond is basically the same.

They are up in durability, regardless of how you feel about the armor modifying system.

The Terminator problem is GW not understanding that what Terminaors get to be more expensive than say a normal marine is all universally weaker in this edition. 5+ invul? Only matters against -4 or higher AP weapons. 2 wounds? There is so much 2D or d3D in the game right now 2 wounds is meaningless. 2+ save? Same issue of weight of fire as earlier editions (you will roll a 1 sooner or later) but also you don't get the 2+ save against anything but small arms due to the modifiers. Realistically terminators should be about 23 points before upgrades, and I think even at that price they still probably need either one more wound or -1 to the D suffered to a minimum of 1 rule. Even with the above changes I don't think they would become a top tier unit as 8th edition doesn't really reward defense due to modifiers and mortal wounds.

Terminators could use a 1+ Armor save; that way AP 0 weapons can’t hurt them through weight of fire. I’d rather they had 1+ Armor than a 5++ save, honestly, and I think it’d fit them better.

Also, it should be possible to upgrade all terminators in a squad to some sort of heavy weapon. They’re walking talks, they should have the appropriate firepower of one.

Power fists need the -1 to hit removed - same with hammers. They were playing it safe when they made that rule. Also a 4++ standard would go a long way.

-1 to Hit power fists and 2+ armor saves have been and pretty much will be how it is forever (ok not really forever i recall armor saves was 2d6 for them or something) for terminators.

at best the only thing that can be done is lower the costs.

4++ is the cataphractii thing so lets not do that.

otherwise they would need to drop to 3++ which gets in the way of storm shields. otherwise cats need something better with a 4++

 Xenomancers wrote:
Power fists need the -1 to hit removed - same with hammers. They were playing it safe when they made that rule. Also a 4++ standard would go a long way.

This, plus T5 and i think you've got a good unit.

My own personal thought was re roll any failed saves against ap1+ also, not including the invun- keeps play nice and fast.

This gives you a very tough unit that doesn't hit massively hard- which fits the original fluff right? a unit of lumbering giants shrugging off fire to take an objective... not hammer tanks and titans into oblivion in one round of combat/shooting, just slow and relentless marines.

Ideally- my adjustments would be +1S, +1T, the ability to move and fire heavy weapons without penalty, also do away with the penalty for using melee weapons and, leave the saves alone. This would be how I would interpret the armor enhancing a normal space marine.

Process wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Power fists need the -1 to hit removed - same with hammers. They were playing it safe when they made that rule. Also a 4++ standard would go a long way.

This, plus T5 and i think you've got a good unit.

My own personal thought was re roll any failed saves against ap1+ also, not including the invun- keeps play nice and fast.

This gives you a very tough unit that doesn't hit massively hard- which fits the original fluff right? a unit of lumbering giants shrugging off fire to take an objective... not hammer tanks and titans into oblivion in one round of combat/shooting, just slow and relentless marines.

I think the first thing I read about terminators was 5 of them was enough to destroy an entire planet. Granted that is ridiculous, the idea here is that they are supposed to be powerful and hard to kill. They are currently nether.

 Xenomancers wrote:

I think the first thing I read about terminators was 5 of them was enough to destroy an entire planet.

In at least like two turns of combat though right?

Process wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

I think the first thing I read about terminators was 5 of them was enough to destroy an entire planet.

In at least like two turns of combat though right?

As many turns as it takes. They have unlimited ammo apparently.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think the first thing I read about terminators was 5 of them was enough to destroy an entire planet. Granted that is ridiculous, the idea here is that they are supposed to be powerful and hard to kill. They are currently nether.

And then there's the Grey Knights fluff I read where five terminators get dragged down and slain by a fairly conventional army.

That is, a fairly conventional army for medieval europe in the 1200s complete with bows and pike blocks.
The fluff is all over the place, man, and is rarely consistent, especially about Marines.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think the first thing I read about terminators was 5 of them was enough to destroy an entire planet. Granted that is ridiculous, the idea here is that they are supposed to be powerful and hard to kill. They are currently nether.

And then there's the Grey Knights fluff I read where five terminators get dragged down and slain by a fairly conventional army.

That is, a fairly conventional army for medieval europe in the 1200s complete with bows and pike blocks.
The fluff is all over the place, man, and is rarely consistent, especially about Marines.

Oh I agree. A midevil army beating 5 terminators is just as ridiculous as 5 terms destroying a planet though. It's somewhere in the middle.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think the first thing I read about terminators was 5 of them was enough to destroy an entire planet. Granted that is ridiculous, the idea here is that they are supposed to be powerful and hard to kill. They are currently nether.

And then there's the Grey Knights fluff I read where five terminators get dragged down and slain by a fairly conventional army.

That is, a fairly conventional army for medieval europe in the 1200s complete with bows and pike blocks.
The fluff is all over the place, man, and is rarely consistent, especially about Marines.

Hyup. if you are talking about terminator duribility then terminators armor vs rending claws is about as usless as wrapping your in a napkin to a chain sword. a ton of terminators die in space hulks.

which makes no sense consider how rare terminator armor and especially the crux terminautous has to be.

it would be 1000% more constructive to consider what space marines need in game context rather than fluff.

 Desubot wrote:
it would be 1000% more constructive to consider what space marines need in game context rather than fluff.

This I agree with, and will step back out of the thread - unfortunately, I don't really know how to fix Terminators. Most of the suggestions I've seen here I think would work, though I'd apply them one at a time (e.g. apply +1 T, see how they work. Apply the "no -1 to melee weapons", see how they work, etc etc.). This is actually possible with the way GW does incremental updates now, and I think would lead to better balance than the roller coaster of "Terminators are UP! Give them everything... OH GOD OH GOD TOO MUCH TAKE IT AWAY.... ah crap they're bad again...."

Process wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Power fists need the -1 to hit removed - same with hammers. They were playing it safe when they made that rule. Also a 4++ standard would go a long way.

This, plus T5 and i think you've got a good unit.

This is why I'm glad most of you aren't in the rules team.

Make them BS/WS2+, and adjust cost to fit.
I would ideally make Sternguard BS2+ and Vanguard WS2+ as well and adjust cost, so everything scales accordingly. Whatever though. I'm not on the rules team so...

no neg modifier to wielding cc weapons in cc or moving and shooting heavy weapons. Re-roll failed armour saves.

Re-roll failes armour saves keeps it simple, no faffing around, also works well to better represent saves vs small arms

Plasma just needs nerfing (cannot re-roll 1 on overcharge, or overheat result stands even if re-rolled and you score a subsequent hit) as well as points increase

Extra attack? Hmm maybe. +1 T seems both ok and not. Helps make them tougher, and with the wounding chart, not as drastic as it would have been last edition. On the other hand Death Guard Blightlord Terms would need to go up to T6. Then there are the Custodes....

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:
no neg modifier to wielding cc weapons in cc or moving and shooting heavy weapons. Re-roll failed armour saves.

Re-roll failes armour saves keeps it simple, no faffing around, also works well to better represent saves vs small arms

Plasma just needs nerfing (cannot re-roll 1 on overcharge, or overheat result stands even if re-rolled and you score a subsequent hit) as well as points increase

Extra attack? Hmm maybe. +1 T seems both ok and not. Helps make them tougher, and with the wounding chart, not as drastic as it would have been last edition. On the other hand Death Guard Blightlord Terms would need to go up to T6. Then there are the Custodes....

Re-rolling failed armour saves is insane, though, against most weapons. That's like, more than 50% durability buff against anything that doesn't bump them up past their invuln anyways. That's bonkers.

Necron_Mason wrote:
Honestly I think we should hold off on talking about buffing Terminators until a Plasma nerf comes in, as that and its kind are the main offenders to making Terminators near useless. Plasma should and more than likely will be nerfed, so trying to talk about changes to Terminators before then is moot, as any changes to Terminators could increase their durability to insane levels depending on how much and in what ways Plasma is nerfed. Let's just wait to see what changes to Plasma GW makes and then go from there, as Plasma is what this discussion is heavily dependant on.

On a side note, I am also strongly against any change that also increases their resistance to small arms fire, as they are already incredibly resilient to them. Any more would make them far too powerful against them.

Plasma is the new grav - back in 7th edition grav weapons ate 2+ armor alive. It would be dumb to nerf plasma as a semi buff for terminators... plasma is one of the best weapons Imperium has to deal with many enemy units. Grav was not nerfed until 8th edition - I doubt GW will nerf plasma this edition.

I agree with the "we want more killy" team.

-2 ap storm bolters, ability to take 2 heavy weapons per 5 w/ no negatives to hit when moved (plasma cannons, grav and ACs) no -1 to hit with powerfists/storm hammers, +2 attacks for 2x LCs.

A strat to allow them to teleport strike mid game (1cp deploy one unit of termies anywhere on the table not w/in 9" of enemy)

Replace the 5++ with a 5+ FNP (Ceramic armor or something fluffy). If that's not good enough then start reducing their points.

Only for true termies. The traitors are good enough as is, actually should cost 25 points more, S/T should be reduced to 2 to reflect the weakness contained by their contaminated souls...

-2AP storm bolters would fix alot more then just terminators.

 Haighus wrote:
Most small arms have no armour modifier though, and now have to do twice the wounds to kill a Terminator. So aside from the medium weapons with sv modifiers and/or multiple damage, Terminators are more durable.

I think where that didn't really help Terminators is that now almost every army can throw plasma (or equivalent) and re-rolls fairly easily with how modular the Detachments are now. Hell, a 500ish point Battalion of Scions can throw 17 overcharged plasma shots at 12" re-rolling 1's to hit and extra shots on 6's. In contrast that's two Terminator Squads. I can see how people would have a problem with that.

 Primark G wrote:
Plasma is the new grav - back in 7th edition grav weapons ate 2+ armor alive. It would be dumb to nerf plasma as a semi buff for terminators... plasma is one of the best weapons Imperium has to deal with many enemy units. Grav was not nerfed until 8th edition - I doubt GW will nerf plasma this edition.

8th edition plasma is worse than 7th edition grav.
Grav wasn't damaging vehicals on a 3+ it also wasn't 2+ to wound against everything bar deathguard and custodes.
Plasma is offensively OP as it eats infantry and tanks for breakfest, it's so undercosted I've never seen anyone take another special weapon in a semi competative list. Between plasma, melta, grav or flamer. It's always plasma or nothing.

Tau plasma is BS4 rapid fire1 24inch S6 -3AP 1D and 11 points and cheapest platform is 42 points
Scions plasma BS3 rapid fire1 24inch S7 -3AP 1D and 13 points in a 9 point model or BS3 rapid fire 1 24 inch s8 -3AP 2D.
The normal profile is cheap the overcharged profile is offensively OP.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Process wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Power fists need the -1 to hit removed - same with hammers. They were playing it safe when they made that rule. Also a 4++ standard would go a long way.

This, plus T5 and i think you've got a good unit.

This is why I'm glad most of you aren't in the rules team.

Make them BS/WS2+, and adjust cost to fit.
I would ideally make Sternguard BS2+ and Vanguard WS2+ as well and adjust cost, so everything scales accordingly. Whatever though. I'm not on the rules team so...

Why is bs2+ and ws 2+ such a better idea than remove -1 to hit penalties? The end result is nearly the same. Plus - my main issue with terms is their survivability. I can buff them to reroll all hits and wounds already with an aura (the problem is you can't buff things that are dead). I for one would start play terminators straight away if they got a 4++ save natural just because at that point they are close enough to being survivable that I would risk playing them.

Cataphractii Terminators already exist, and they're already bad, 4++ or no.

 Stormonu wrote:
Terminators could use a 1+ Armor save; that way AP 0 weapons can’t hurt them through weight of fire. I’d rather they had 1+ Armor than a 5++ save, honestly, and I think it’d fit them better.

Also, it should be possible to upgrade all terminators in a squad to some sort of heavy weapon. They’re walking talks, they should have the appropriate firepower of one.

Alright, so my Nurgle Army is just fethed, then?

I run Plaguebearers (no AP), Plague Drones (no AP), and Nurglings (no AP). I then typically have a Poxbringer, a Spoilpox Scrivener, and Epidemius. That's 3 models (out of 75) that have an AP value.