Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Terminators could use a 1+ Armor save; that way AP 0 weapons can’t hurt them through weight of fire. I’d rather they had 1+ Armor than a 5++ save, honestly, and I think it’d fit them better.

Also, it should be possible to upgrade all terminators in a squad to some sort of heavy weapon. They’re walking talks, they should have the appropriate firepower of one.

Alright, so my Nurgle Army is just fethed, then?

I run Plaguebearers (no AP), Plague Drones (no AP), and Nurglings (no AP). I then typically have a Poxbringer, a Spoilpox Scrivener, and Epidemius. That's 3 models (out of 75) that have an AP value.

I mean it is no worse then last edition if a guy played a land raider or in your list case any vehical.

Except two things:

1) I wouldn't've fielded a list like this last addition. It's gotten better in 8th, which is nice, but I'd still be taking that which is effective.

2) They had Touch of Rust (everything but the Nurglings) which auto-glanced on 6s.

Edit: Also, "7th edition would've done something similar!" is NOT a good argument. I prefer 7th to 8th, but I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge that 7th was not an objectively good system.

I really doubt plasma will be nerfed... back to the drawing board Ice-can.

 Larks wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
Most small arms have no armour modifier though, and now have to do twice the wounds to kill a Terminator. So aside from the medium weapons with sv modifiers and/or multiple damage, Terminators are more durable.

I think where that didn't really help Terminators is that now almost every army can throw plasma (or equivalent) and re-rolls fairly easily with how modular the Detachments are now. Hell, a 500ish point Battalion of Scions can throw 17 overcharged plasma shots at 12" re-rolling 1's to hit and extra shots on 6's. In contrast that's two Terminator Squads. I can see how people would have a problem with that.

Exactly, so anything that raises the durability of Terminators across the board (like re rolling saves) makes Terminators far to tough against everything else, but leaves plasma still the best option. So everyone still takes plasma. The problem is plasma, and this needs to be fixed. Any increases to Terminator durability need to focus on plasma and similar weapons, like the ability to reduce damage by 1 to a minimum of 1, which doubles Terminator durability against overcharged plasma.

Terminators don't need a universal durability boost, but a targeted one.

Their firepower is limited however. I think this is a better target for buffs. I think AP -2 just isn't Terminators though. They are better having a large weight of fire that is relentless, so just make them able to use Rapid fire weapons as Assault weapons if they advance, Pistols if they are within 1" of an enemy, allow them to shoot if they fall back, and +1 to Overwatch hit rolls. Make them Bs Ws 2+, and remove the negative hit modifiers for moving and shooting heavy weapons, and for power fists and thunderhammers.

This would make a unit that is consistently putting out fire, and is basically impossible to suppress.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Process wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Power fists need the -1 to hit removed - same with hammers. They were playing it safe when they made that rule. Also a 4++ standard would go a long way.

This, plus T5 and i think you've got a good unit.

This is why I'm glad most of you aren't in the rules team.

Make them BS/WS2+, and adjust cost to fit.
I would ideally make Sternguard BS2+ and Vanguard WS2+ as well and adjust cost, so everything scales accordingly. Whatever though. I'm not on the rules team so...

Why is bs2+ and ws 2+ such a better idea than remove -1 to hit penalties? The end result is nearly the same. Plus - my main issue with terms is their survivability. I can buff them to reroll all hits and wounds already with an aura (the problem is you can't buff things that are dead). I for one would start play terminators straight away if they got a 4++ save natural just because at that point they are close enough to being survivable that I would risk playing them.

My suggestion helps all Terminator types. It isn't just the Tactical Terminator that's suffering. My addition helps with the strictly shooting variants and increases damage output from anything not using an unwieldy melee weapon, like Power Weapon Chaos variants or the LC Loyalist Scum variants.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Process wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Power fists need the -1 to hit removed - same with hammers. They were playing it safe when they made that rule. Also a 4++ standard would go a long way.

This, plus T5 and i think you've got a good unit.

This is why I'm glad most of you aren't in the rules team.

Make them BS/WS2+, and adjust cost to fit.
I would ideally make Sternguard BS2+ and Vanguard WS2+ as well and adjust cost, so everything scales accordingly. Whatever though. I'm not on the rules team so...

Why is bs2+ and ws 2+ such a better idea than remove -1 to hit penalties? The end result is nearly the same. Plus - my main issue with terms is their survivability. I can buff them to reroll all hits and wounds already with an aura (the problem is you can't buff things that are dead). I for one would start play terminators straight away if they got a 4++ save natural just because at that point they are close enough to being survivable that I would risk playing them.

My suggestion helps all Terminator types. It isn't just the Tactical Terminator that's suffering. My addition helps with the strictly shooting variants and increases damage output from anything not using an unwieldy melee weapon, like Power Weapon Chaos variants or the LC Loyalist Scum variants.

Honestly i wouldnt mind "Veterans" all gaining the bs ws 2+ it differentiates them from normal and primarus marines (whom have their sthick of 2 attacks base)

it steps on commander level units but eh they get more attacks base anyway. at which point i dont mind unwhieldy on a 3+ being a thing still.

(they should be right between commanders and normal guys which would be a 2.5+ to hit but its hard to do that on a d6)

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Process wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Power fists need the -1 to hit removed - same with hammers. They were playing it safe when they made that rule. Also a 4++ standard would go a long way.

This, plus T5 and i think you've got a good unit.

This is why I'm glad most of you aren't in the rules team.

Make them BS/WS2+, and adjust cost to fit.
I would ideally make Sternguard BS2+ and Vanguard WS2+ as well and adjust cost, so everything scales accordingly. Whatever though. I'm not on the rules team so...

Why is bs2+ and ws 2+ such a better idea than remove -1 to hit penalties? The end result is nearly the same. Plus - my main issue with terms is their survivability. I can buff them to reroll all hits and wounds already with an aura (the problem is you can't buff things that are dead). I for one would start play terminators straight away if they got a 4++ save natural just because at that point they are close enough to being survivable that I would risk playing them.

My suggestion helps all Terminator types. It isn't just the Tactical Terminator that's suffering. My addition helps with the strictly shooting variants and increases damage output from anything not using an unwieldy melee weapon, like Power Weapon Chaos variants or the LC Loyalist Scum variants.

Honestly i wouldnt mind "Veterans" all gaining the bs ws 2+ it differentiates them from normal and primarus marines (whom have their sthick of 2 attacks base)

it steps on commander level units but eh they get more attacks base anyway. at which point i dont mind unwhieldy on a 3+ being a thing still.

(they should be right between commanders and normal guys which would be a 2.5+ to hit but its hard to do that on a d6)

That's about the way I see it. Making Vanguard WS2+ basically helps alleviate the issue with their number of attacks not being spectacular, and making Sternguard BS2+ makes them more attractive than say Command Squads and Devastator squads. That would need a price adjustment of course but not a big one.

Then Terminators are so skilled they get the honor to use the Terminator suits. Seems to make sense, right?

No wonder the suits are so rare! Deathwing lose at least 20 fighting a simple uprising.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's about the way I see it. Making Vanguard WS2+ basically helps alleviate the issue with their number of attacks not being spectacular, and making Sternguard BS2+ makes them more attractive than say Command Squads and Devastator squads. That would need a price adjustment of course but not a big one.

Then Terminators are so skilled they get the honor to use the Terminator suits. Seems to make sense, right?

Could of sworn Terminators sternguard and vanguards are all the same guys. they all have the crux terminatus. i dont recall how any of that fluff works on command squads though this is mostly irrelevant.

The ones for terminators have something special.

Primark G wrote:
Plasma is the new grav - back in 7th edition grav weapons ate 2+ armor alive. It would be dumb to nerf plasma as a semi buff for terminators... plasma is one of the best weapons Imperium has to deal with many enemy units. Grav was not nerfed until 8th edition - I doubt GW will nerf plasma this edition.

I didn't play much of 7th due to how broken it was, so I can't say much on Grav weapons and such. However it has been stated by GW and shown by their actions that they are taking 8th edition far more seriously balancing-wise, so to say that GW won't make a needed change in 8th because of how the dragged their feet on a similar issue in 7th is not entirely justified.

Ice_can wrote:
8th edition plasma is worse than 7th edition grav.
Grav wasn't damaging vehicals on a 3+ it also wasn't 2+ to wound against everything bar deathguard and custodes.
Plasma is offensively OP as it eats infantry and tanks for breakfest, it's so undercosted I've never seen anyone take another special weapon in a semi competative list. Between plasma, melta, grav or flamer. It's always plasma or nothing.

Tau plasma is BS4 rapid fire1 24inch S6 -3AP 1D and 11 points and cheapest platform is 42 points
Scions plasma BS3 rapid fire1 24inch S7 -3AP 1D and 13 points in a 9 point model or BS3 rapid fire 1 24 inch s8 -3AP 2D.
The normal profile is cheap the overcharged profile is offensively OP.

I agree, and that is the two major problems with Plasma right now. The simple fact that Plasma is incredibly OP and that it does mostly everything so well with a laughably small amount of risk that it makes the rest of the special weapons completely irrelevant. Each of the special weapons should fit a niche role, and right now Plasma outperforms every special weapon in every niche role.

Plasma is held in check kind of by -1 to hit traits. But it's not enough.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Terminators could use a 1+ Armor save; that way AP 0 weapons can’t hurt them through weight of fire. I’d rather they had 1+ Armor than a 5++ save, honestly, and I think it’d fit them better.

Also, it should be possible to upgrade all terminators in a squad to some sort of heavy weapon. They’re walking talks, they should have the appropriate firepower of one.

Alright, so my Nurgle Army is just fethed, then?

I run Plaguebearers (no AP), Plague Drones (no AP), and Nurglings (no AP). I then typically have a Poxbringer, a Spoilpox Scrivener, and Epidemius. That's 3 models (out of 75) that have an AP value.

Honest question, do none of those have Krak grenade equivalents? That may mean killing the terminators slow, but that's why their being brought in the first place.

Some 'Nid builds would have problems as well - a Termagant swarm would be worthless as well without some heavier support.

With the exception of the Heralds, no. The Heralds all have at least AP-1 on SOMETHING, but that's it.

 Stormonu wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Terminators could use a 1+ Armor save; that way AP 0 weapons can’t hurt them through weight of fire. I’d rather they had 1+ Armor than a 5++ save, honestly, and I think it’d fit them better.

Also, it should be possible to upgrade all terminators in a squad to some sort of heavy weapon. They’re walking talks, they should have the appropriate firepower of one.

Alright, so my Nurgle Army is just fethed, then?

I run Plaguebearers (no AP), Plague Drones (no AP), and Nurglings (no AP). I then typically have a Poxbringer, a Spoilpox Scrivener, and Epidemius. That's 3 models (out of 75) that have an AP value.

Honest question, do none of those have Krak grenade equivalents? That may mean killing the terminators slow, but that's why their being brought in the first place.

Some 'Nid builds would have problems as well - a Termagant swarm would be worthless as well without some heavier support.

Just to clarify, the issue here is that a Scissors skewed/gimmick list is hard-countered by a Rock skewed/gimmick list?

So a mixture of troops (Plaguebearers and Nurglings), fast attack (Plague Drones), along with supporting HQs is a skew list now?

 JNAProductions wrote:
So a mixture of troops (Plaguebearers and Nurglings), fast attack (Plague Drones), along with supporting HQs is a skew list now?

Yes bringing no heavy weapons and spamming cheap low ap and damage is skew.

 mew28 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So a mixture of troops (Plaguebearers and Nurglings), fast attack (Plague Drones), along with supporting HQs is a skew list now?

Yes bringing no heavy weapons and spamming cheap low ap and damage wounds is skew.

So what do I bring as Nurgle Daemons? GUO have AP, but they suck. BEasts of Nurgle have no AP. There are no dedicated Nurgle Heavy Support options. The only good option with AP are Daemon Princes.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 mew28 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So a mixture of troops (Plaguebearers and Nurglings), fast attack (Plague Drones), along with supporting HQs is a skew list now?

Yes bringing no heavy weapons and spamming cheap low ap and damage wounds is skew.

So what do I bring as Nurgle Daemons? GUO have AP, but they suck. BEasts of Nurgle have no AP. There are no dedicated Nurgle Heavy Support options. The only good option with AP are Daemon Princes.

You bring some CSM your like a deathwatch player saying they have not cheap units to screen.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 mew28 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So a mixture of troops (Plaguebearers and Nurglings), fast attack (Plague Drones), along with supporting HQs is a skew list now?

Yes bringing no heavy weapons and spamming cheap low ap and damage wounds is skew.

So what do I bring as Nurgle Daemons? GUO have AP, but they suck. BEasts of Nurgle have no AP. There are no dedicated Nurgle Heavy Support options. The only good option with AP are Daemon Princes.

What about the Plagueburst Crawler?

Nevermind, I see that the army is supposed to be Daemon only - though I guess a Soulgrinder could be brought in? (Not terribly familiar with Daemons...)

 Stormonu wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 mew28 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So a mixture of troops (Plaguebearers and Nurglings), fast attack (Plague Drones), along with supporting HQs is a skew list now?

Yes bringing no heavy weapons and spamming cheap low ap and damage wounds is skew.

So what do I bring as Nurgle Daemons? GUO have AP, but they suck. BEasts of Nurgle have no AP. There are no dedicated Nurgle Heavy Support options. The only good option with AP are Daemon Princes.

What about the Plagueburst Crawler?

Nurgle Daemons. That's Deathguard.

And I should not have to look outside my faction to have a chance of killing Terminators. I'm fine if they're tough. I'm fine with my list having good and bad match-ups. But there should not be a model that literally only 3 models in my army can even potentially damage.

Would you tell a Salamanders player that they HAVE to look outside their faction to play against certain models? What about armies like Tau or Crons, who CANNOT ally? Do they just play a new faction?

For reference, Epidemius has 4 S5 AP-3 rerolling wounds attacks. Poxbringer has the same statline with 3 attacks. Spoilpox Scrivener has 3 attacks at S5 AP-1 rerolling wound rolls of 1. If all three charge a squad of Terminators with 1+ armor saves, they deal...
1.48 from Epidemius, 1.11 from Poxbringer, and .32 from the Scrivener. Total of 2.91 damage. Enough to kill a Terminator and a half.

In return, the Terminators deal about .59 points of damage per model on the backswing.

Edit: Yeah, a Soulgrinder is available to all Daemonic factions. But it's honestly not especially good either, and I want to keep the Nurgle theme.

Also, why would anyone want a model that's literally unkillable by anything without an AP value? I don't mind a 1+ save, just so long as they obey the "1s always fail" rule.

How exactly would you handle a Fellblade with that army? Or a pile of Land Raider Crusaders? Or an army of fliers?

You’re taking an army with no heavy or anti-tank weaponry. That’s not a ‘faction identity’, like Custodes not having chaff infantry to screen. That’s just a poor army.

kombatwombat wrote:
How exactly would you handle a Fellblade with that army? Or a pile of Land Raider Crusaders? Or an army of fliers?

You’re taking an army with no heavy or anti-tank weaponry. That’s not a ‘faction identity’, like Custodes not having chaff infantry to screen. That’s just a poor army.

Charge it, charge it, and charge it. I've handled Land Raiders with just these guys pretty well. S5 with +1 to wound rolls, rerolling all failed wounds, doing 1 extra damage on 5+ and double damage on 6s makes short work of most things.

Not actually sure what a Fellblade is-it's a Space Marine Superheavy, yeah?

Land Raiders aren't scary. I'll have some difficulty killing them, but I'll outscore them enormously, and they won't kill much.

And an army of fliers both has a counter in my Drones (which can charge them just fine) and I can just wipe the ground forces, in which case, they auto-lose.

Edit: I won't say this a tournament level army, because of course it's not. But it's perfectly fine for friendly, if competitive, play. And there should not be models that I can only touch with three models in my entire army.

Isn't that something people disliked about 7th?

On the contrary, it was probably the single thing about the 8th Ed ruleset that caused the most outrage: that a lasgun can blow a hole in a Land Raider. Having units that can’t be harmed by certain weaponry was a thematic strength of previous editions; you couldn’t just spam plasma to deal with everything - an AV14 tank scorned your plasma’s S7.

The problem with 7th Ed ‘unkillable’ stuff was that there was literally no way to harm them with anything. It wasn’t a case of packing a meltagun when you’re dealing with a horde, but rather that no matter what weapon you used no damage got through. Destroyer weapons were the exception - they could go through the ‘unkillable’ stuff, but only on a roll of a 6, and they were very rare weapons.

If you’ve brought only anti-light infantry weapons in your entire army then it’s only right that you should have no capacity to deal with a unit designed to wade through oceans of anti-infantry fire.

And yep a Fellblade is indeed a Marine Superheavy - a T9 W26 Sv2+ one that can still shoot (and even Overwatch!) while in combat. Even with Str 5 and +1 to Wound (which I believe can only affect one unit per turn?) it’ll still take you over six hundred attacks to bring one of those things down.

I don’t think it’s a stretch to call an army that has no dedicated anti-tank, anti-monster, anti-elite or anti-flyer weaponry, and relies solely on anti-infantry attacks with a limited gimmick to make those attacks a bit more useful against suboptimal targets, a very skewed list.

 JNAProductions wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:
How exactly would you handle a Fellblade with that army? Or a pile of Land Raider Crusaders? Or an army of fliers?

You’re taking an army with no heavy or anti-tank weaponry. That’s not a ‘faction identity’, like Custodes not having chaff infantry to screen. That’s just a poor army.

Charge it, charge it, and charge it. I've handled Land Raiders with just these guys pretty well. S5 with +1 to wound rolls, rerolling all failed wounds, doing 1 extra damage on 5+ and double damage on 6s makes short work of most things.

Not actually sure what a Fellblade is-it's a Space Marine Superheavy, yeah?

Land Raiders aren't scary. I'll have some difficulty killing them, but I'll outscore them enormously, and they won't kill much.

And an army of fliers both has a counter in my Drones (which can charge them just fine) and I can just wipe the ground forces, in which case, they auto-lose.

Edit: I won't say this a tournament level army, because of course it's not. But it's perfectly fine for friendly, if competitive, play. And there should not be models that I can only touch with three models in my entire army.

Isn't that something people disliked about 7th?

According to the rulebook a 1 on a saving throw always fails, so a 1+ armour would have no effect on Nurgle Daemons at all. Obliterators right now can gain a 0+ armour safe next to a tree, yet they still can be hurt by anyone, they're just much more durable against heavy weapons. Also, with all our high damage profiles vehicles, and terminators are no problem, you can have up to damage 6 on a plague bearer after all...

 JNAProductions wrote:


Land Raiders aren't scary. I'll have some difficulty killing them, but I'll outscore them enormously, and they won't kill much.

The crusader is very killy against hordes though and not even that expensive, it's 310 points IIRC. Certainly a bit overcosted and not a super competitive option but against several factions it may even gets its points back. Its main drawback is most SM lists don't have anything valuable to transport. With my SW I can bring 15-16 blood claws plus 0-1 lukas or wolf priest, or 5-7 wulfen plus 5 GH or wolf guards and 0-1 characters. Huge points sink but not useless.

The other types of land raiders are way more lackluster though.

All of this is irrelevant anyway, because the last thing terminators need is a better armor save. They are already very resilient against anything that does 1 damage, and being in cover makes them very resistant to all AP 1 as well. Doing anything to improve their armor save makes them practically unkillable against 1 damage weapons, so we should stop considering that.

The only things that are decent at killing them are heavy anti tank guns or thunder hammer type weapons, which seems correct to me, and OC plasma, which is about twice as good as almost anything else (melta, las, etc) since it typically gets more than one shot.

I can't think of another gun that decimates terminators in a "huh that seems way too good" way as much as plasma does. Grav is close, but wounds on 3s and won't kill the terminator outright 1/3rd of the time with D3 damage. Grav isn't nearly as good as plasma at killing high T things though, so I'm okay if it's decent at killing terminators since that seems like it's job, and it's still not even close to being as good as plasma is.

So, the only options worth considering from a durability standpoint are nerfing plasma or increasing the durability of terminators against only plasma. In my opinion, you could do this by making termies always reduce damage by 1 to a min of 1, but it might be easier to just give plasma an overhaul.

From an offensive standpoint, I think terminators should be able to ignore the negative modifiers from melee weapons, and perhaps be able to move and fire heavy weapons with no negative modifier, and maybe even advance and still fire rapid fire and heavy at a -1 as well.

I think reducing the damage of all weapons by 1 (to a minimum of 1) is a really good start. Not overly powerful, but it helps against the proliferation of high volume 2 damage shots, while not really affecting the big stuff like Thunder Hammers and Lascannons that are meant to kill these things.

Offensively, I think allowing them to choose to treat Heavy and Rapid Fire weapons as Assault, and ignoring the -1 penalty on Thunder Hammers/Power Fists/Chainfists, would give them another nice but not crazily powerful boost.

It’s a simple enough add; in a Chapter Approved give these extra rule to all units with the Terminator keyword. If that doesn’t solve the issue then after a while look into something else.

The only issue might be Lightning Claws - maybe a second extra attack for having a pair?

I'm not sure I see any issue with lightning claws as they are now, actually. 16 attacks from 5 actually durable guys seems okay to me. Math wise, they should wipe a 5 man Maine squad with no outside rerolls.

Honestly not sure why Terminators are not WS/BS 2+ considering they are lore wise the veterans of a chapter. They should be basically sternguard but in better armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jcd386 wrote:
I'm not sure I see any issue with lightning claws as they are now, actually. 16 attacks from 5 actually durable guys seems okay to me. Math wise, they should wipe a 5 man Maine squad with no outside rerolls.

Lightning claws are not really that bad, They are decent, the problem with them is their delivery system. Terminators are slow as snot, and you have around a 40% chance of making a 9" charge to get into combat with them. And when you do, your still only swinging at S4, which is great for killing hordes, but lets be honest, there are a lot better and cheaper ways to clear hordes that are more useful. For example, a Dakka pred can do it from range.