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 Primark G wrote:
The unwieldy rule needs to go in my opinion as it is a throwback to anti SM. A SM can fire a lascannon across the battlefield and pinpoint the only weak point on a closing Wraithknight but somehow a terminator cannot punch an enemy right up in his face? Ridiculous.

It would be a nice buff for terminators, but boost the power fist for other units a bit too much. Why bother with a power weapon when you can have double strength, D3 damage and the AP of a power sword for not many more points?

I think a fist would be harder to hit with too. Swords, axes and mauls all have a reach advantage and are lighter. I suppose you could justify a fist/chainfist losing the -1 hit penalty against monsters and vehicles but I think it's over complicating things at that point

Just make it a bonus for Terminators to represent the strength advantage of the suit (it is also easier to hit with heavier weapons when armoured, because you can press into close range with less fear of being wounded).

Either rename the weapons to Terminator power fist/thunder hammer, or add a special rule to models with the Terminator keyword stating they ignore the negative hit penalty when using power fists and thunder hammers in combat. The latter is the easier solution with the FAQ system.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


You even pointed out the Flyer was better.

Being better doesn't mean that everything else is garbage But I've learned something about SM players: if they aren't the overpowered top tiers that melt everything in 3 turns their army is pure garbage

IMHO aggressors are overrated. I mean without buffs and stratagems they're not that good, and my army doesn't have a codex yet. RG aggressors are excellent of course, but in a close combat oriented I'd go with something else. Also other chapters (with a codex) aggressors don't look that appealing to me. They're good of course, like tons of other SM stuff, but not a must have.

Personally I think the best choice to fix Terminators, from all of the replies so far, is to reduce damage by 1 to a minimum of 1 & Penalizing the AP of weapons that hit them. Reduce the AP of weapons that hit Terminators by -1, to a minimum of 0, would not be game-breaking. Lasguns should be able to wound Terminators; there is always the chance of a shot finding an eye or joint.

Additionally, if you read any Terminator fluff it clearly states the armor was built to be a more stable platform for heavier weaponry and should ignore the -1 modifier to shoot heavy weapons.

Those three right there would justify the high point cost of Terminators while making them on par with how tough they should be, fluff-wise.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
The unwieldy rule needs to go in my opinion as it is a throwback to anti SM. A SM can fire a lascannon across the battlefield and pinpoint the only weak point on a closing Wraithknight but somehow a terminator cannot punch an enemy right up in his face? Ridiculous.

It would be a nice buff for terminators, but boost the power fist for other units a bit too much. Why bother with a power weapon when you can have double strength, D3 damage and the AP of a power sword for not many more points?

I think a fist would be harder to hit with too. Swords, axes and mauls all have a reach advantage and are lighter. I suppose you could justify a fist/chainfist losing the -1 hit penalty against monsters and vehicles but I think it's over complicating things at that point

Terminators are practically the only units using power fists. It's also time for us to start caring about that crap. Who cares if another bad unit gets buffed in the process? Is there a good unit that uses powerfists that would become OP? Not that I can think of.

Over-complicating the game... spit out my coffee when I read that one.

Serious question guys - is there a unit that is actually good that uses power fists?

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


You even pointed out the Flyer was better.

Being better doesn't mean that everything else is garbage But I've learned something about SM players: if they aren't the overpowered top tiers that melt everything in 3 turns their army is pure garbage

IMHO aggressors are overrated. I mean without buffs and stratagems they're not that good, and my army doesn't have a codex yet. RG aggressors are excellent of course, but in a close combat oriented I'd go with something else. Also other chapters (with a codex) aggressors don't look that appealing to me. They're good of course, like tons of other SM stuff, but not a must have.

Look at it this way:
1. Both your Stormraven equivalent and the Land Raider have the same job: transport and gunboat
2. One is ludicrously expensive to do that job
3. The other has benefits on top of all that (Fly is pretty good ya know)
4. Stormravens are taken (though Fire Raptors are proving even more popular) and Land Raiders aren't at tournaments. While Space Wolves haven't done so yet, we can blame this on the codex not coming out yet.
5. The Land Raider is like this in every codex.
6. It's basically universally panned outside a few people who want to be different for the sake of being different.

Therefore we can conclude the Land Raider is pretty bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Serious question guys - is there a unit that is actually good that uses power fists?

Not sure if Death Company still uses hidden power fists, and it worked okayish to blech for Vanguard. So honestly probably not.

I would rathet see them given WS2+ BS2+ as it means that LC and chainfists, stormbolter, assault cannon, cyclone etc all get the buff without, needing specific terminator versions and centurions already have the ignore penalties and they aren't realy that great.

I think the main drawback to letting Terminators ignore the PF/TH penalty is it makes Lightning Claws less of an appealing choice, and renders the Sgt having a power sword instead totally pointless. If you bump their WS, you avoid this problem.

I think making them WS2 is a solid idea!

I'm not sure Termies need to be buffed in their offense capability rather than in their defense.
For sure a second heavy weapon in 5 men and no penalty in fire while moving could be a sufficient buff in line with their fluff.

For the cost they have, Termy need more improvements in their resilience.
The 5++ save on a 2+armour model is almost a waste, so that 5++ should be changed in a 5+++ save, granted fluff wise by the Crux Terminator.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Serious question guys - is there a unit that is actually good that uses power fists?

Berzerkers on the Champion because you get 6 attacks (or 8 if you're World Eaters) with it.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Serious question guys - is there a unit that is actually good that uses power fists?

Berzerkers on the Champion because you get 6 attacks (or 8 if you're World Eaters) with it.

Makes sense to put it there. Is it really reasonable for a bezerker champion to have more attacks than a chapter master? Or 3-4 times more attacks than a terminator?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Serious question guys - is there a unit that is actually good that uses power fists?

Berzerkers on the Champion because you get 6 attacks (or 8 if you're World Eaters) with it.

Makes sense to put it there. Is it really reasonable for a bezerker champion to have more attacks than a chapter master? Or 3-4 times more attacks than a terminator?

It's mostly due to the fact that they attack twice in each combat. I ran them on my zerks champ against DG the other day for the first time. I gotta say, it was pretty good, punching everything to death is pretty solid. Also, chainfist on a WE termy Lord was pretty good too. I just wish the unwieldy rule was non existent for terminators.

Side note, I wish chaos Lord's where S5 T5 standard....

well it's clear the a PF is worth more on a model that can attack 6-8 times rather than 2 - but so is every weapon.

I didn't read the whole thread because it's big, but what about if terminators had the same rule as genestealer cult aberrants where they reduce all damage by 1 to a minimum of 1? So overcharged plasma now just does 1 wound to them?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Serious question guys - is there a unit that is actually good that uses power fists?

Berzerkers on the Champion because you get 6 attacks (or 8 if you're World Eaters) with it.

Makes sense to put it there. Is it really reasonable for a bezerker champion to have more attacks than a chapter master? Or 3-4 times more attacks than a terminator?

More attacks than a termie yes, those dudes should be slower thanks to the 2+ armor.

IMHO termies should be more heavy hitter, a better WS, +1A, the ability of negating the -1 to hit when using power fists or hammers are all nice ideas. I also think that they should need more synergies with buffing stratagems or characters that should improve their stats.

BrianDavion wrote:

rather then nerf plasma I'd buff flamerts to the point where they are worth taking for dealing with hordes.

Yes, this is the problem.

Flamers are barely better at killing hordes and meltaguns are barely better at killing big stuff. Plasma therefore is the best choice because it's at least decent at everything.

I'd love to see a universal flamer buff to help pin back hords a bit. Extend their range to 10" to stop 8.1" charges, and to let them punish units from deepstrike. That would make their price a lot more viable...

 grouchoben wrote:
I'd love to see a universal flamer buff to help pin back hords a bit. Extend their range to 10" to stop 8.1" charges, and to let them punish units from deepstrike. That would make their price a lot more viable...

it's kinda stupid that the range for vehicle mounted flamers is the same as all the others. my deimos infernus w infernus cannon should at least b 12".

Berzerker, with an R before the Z.

 grouchoben wrote:
I'd love to see a universal flamer buff to help pin back hords a bit. Extend their range to 10" to stop 8.1" charges, and to let them punish units from deepstrike. That would make their price a lot more viable...

But then you punish CQC units even more by making their already only 50/50 chance of getting the charge off after deepstrike, even more deadly.

Well they would just have to choose between dropping in at 9.1 and getting flamered or 10.1 and not getting flamered. Choices seem good to me.

jcd386 wrote:
Well they would just have to choose between dropping in at 9.1 and getting flamered or 10.1 and not getting flamered. Choices seem good to me.

It's ironic that you think that that is balanced and fair in a thread talking about how bad Terminators have it.

You might have to explain the irony to me. Right now it seems like flamer units have it worse off than deep striking assault units.

Any of the good assault units tend to have access to reroll to charge, so it's usually a lot more than a 50/50 chance, and over 8.1 inches flamer units are helpless despite overwatch being one of the things they are supposed to do well. It's also weird that flamers can't be used when you drop strike in. Right now they are just pretty terrible at everything.

If you have any additional ideas to buff flamers id love to hear them.

The way I see it, they can either stay the same and be useless for or against deepstrike, go to 10" and be a choice, or stay at 8" but still get to be used in overwatch regardless, which would buff them as a defence vs charges but still useless to deepstriking units. But clearly I haven't thought of everything.

jcd386 wrote:
You might have to explain the irony to me. Right now it seems like flamer units have it worse off than deep striking assault units.

Any of the good assault units tend to have access to reroll to charge, so it's usually a lot more than a 50/50 chance, and over 8.1 inches flamer units are helpless despite overwatch being one of the things they are supposed to do well. It's also weird that flamers can't be used when you drop strike in. Right now they are just pretty terrible at everything.

If you have any additional ideas to buff flamers id love to hear them.

The way I see it, they can either stay the same and be useless for or against deepstrike, go to 10" and be a choice, or stay at 8" but still get to be used in overwatch regardless, which would buff them as a defence vs charges but still useless to deepstriking units. But clearly I haven't thought of everything.

It's ironic because Terminators are deep striking CC unit that are utterly terrible right now and you want to make it so that deep striking CC units have to choose whether to take Xd6 auto hits on the charge or have an even worse chance of getting into CC. And re-rolling charges doesn't make it much better than a 50/50 chance to get a charge off after deep strike, the re-roll makes almost a 50/50 chance to get it off.

Flamers are in an odd place, they do two jobs: they're good at killing hordes and they're good at killing CC units, in an edition where hordes are OP and CC units are still second rate. I think flamers should be made stronger so that when they do hit they do a lot of damage to hordes but I think they should be kept at 8" ranges to give assaulting units a chance.

Yeah that makes sense, but it would take an average of 7 regular flamers to kill 1 terminator. I guess I don't think it is too overpowered for a unit if 7 flamers to make a unit think twice about assaulting it.

Id also want to make all of the terminator changes I suggested (they take -1 damage to a min of 1, plasma cause 1 mortal wound on a natural 1 despite rerolls, have them ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, and give them WS2+) to make them better, but in a perfect world I'd want both flamers and terminators to be worth taking.

Why would terminators be worried about a flamer hitting them as they DS'd? Contrarily, if they were thinking about DS'ing against a group of static aggressors then, yeah, they probably shouldn't do that! I don't see why that would even register on the decision making process for termis to DS or not. Personally, I think the game needs a few options to deal with DS - it's so cheap and ubiquitous now, with nearly every later codex getting DS up the wazoo. Flamers are overcosted and naff currently. Why not give them a specific role that would mildly-counter DS spam AND hordes?

Slaanesh terminators are good