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What if Flamers had a fixed value of hits instead?

 fraser1191 wrote:
What if Flamers had a fixed value of hits instead?

Great another weapon that over kills charictors and small units but doesn't help against 20+ strong units.
GW fundamentally broke template weapons transferring them to 8th. They are OP as snot against charictors or small units, but woefully inadequate agaisnt blob squads. It should have been d3 or d3-1 per X models in the unit not fixed d3 or d6.

Ice_can wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
What if Flamers had a fixed value of hits instead?

Great another weapon that over kills charictors and small units but doesn't help against 20+ strong units.
GW fundamentally broke template weapons transferring them to 8th. They are OP as snot against charictors or small units, but woefully inadequate agaisnt blob squads. It should have been d3 or d3-1 per X models in the unit not fixed d3 or d6.

D6 per 10 models? For flamers and heavy flamers, more exotic flamers could vary.

I also agree they should vary the ranges from 8", there is no reason to pidgeonhole them to the old flamer template length, they could get creative. Vehicle-mounted flamers should definitely get more range, this is true of existing vehicle-mounted flamers vs contemporary man-portable devices.

 fraser1191 wrote:
What if Flamers had a fixed value of hits instead?

Flamers should have a fixed value representing the max number of hits, but the weapon could not do more hits than models in the target unit.

So, when firing to a character, you have 1 authomatic hit. When firing to a blob of 20 guards, a template 6 weapon gets 6 authomatic hits.

The Deer Hunter wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
What if Flamers had a fixed value of hits instead?

Flamers should have a fixed value representing the max number of hits, but the weapon could not do more hits than models in the target unit.

So, when firing to a character, you have 1 authomatic hit. When firing to a blob of 20 guards, a template 6 weapon gets 6 authomatic hits.

I like that idea though maybe it should be max 1 hit per two/three models so it doesn't overly punish msu unit's that realy should have more chance of dodging over the massed wall of flesh of blob squads.
It would also be nice to see this rolled out to all the old blast template weapons aswell.

I would be okay with something like 2 + 1d6 auto hits, with the 1d6 hits being capped to the max number of models in the unit. That's a max of 8 hits, an average of 5.5, and a minimum of 3.

This would end up about the same (a little worse) vs vehicles and characters, but better against infantry. I would also increase the range to 10" due the deep strike issue.

I just realised that the CML is a worse twin-ML this edition. Anyone got any clue why GW felt Terminators didn't deserve better?

To be fair, CML doesn't cost like 2 missile launchers and isn't supposed to be like two.

Ice_can wrote:

The Deer Hunter wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
What if Flamers had a fixed value of hits instead?

Flamers should have a fixed value representing the max number of hits, but the weapon could not do more hits than models in the target unit.

So, when firing to a character, you have 1 authomatic hit. When firing to a blob of 20 guards, a template 6 weapon gets 6 authomatic hits.

I like that idea though maybe it should be max 1 hit per two/three models so it doesn't overly punish msu unit's that realy should have more chance of dodging over the massed wall of flesh of blob squads.
It would also be nice to see this rolled out to all the old blast template weapons aswell.

What does it matter that it affects msu "more"? A model is a model. If anything msu is less affected because they can have fewer models than hits.

1d6 hits, +1d6 against units of more than ten models. That sound fairer?

Kind reminder, this thread is about the Terminator problem, not the flamer problem

Fair play!

Switching them to 1 wound 3+/6++ but taking saves on 2D6 does give them a massive boost verses small arms...

Assuming the weapons does 1 would they require the following number of wounds to die according to save mod currently:
2+/12 3+/6 4+/4 5+/3

And 3+/6++ with 1 wound and 2D6
3+/36 4+/12 5+/6 6+/3.6

 koooaei wrote:
To be fair, CML doesn't cost like 2 missile launchers and isn't supposed to be like two.

They made the Frag part 2D3 i think. So it's strictly worse.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Switching them to 1 wound 3+/6++ but taking saves on 2D6 does give them a massive boost verses small arms...

Terminators are already very good vs Small arms. Read the thread.

Their problem comes from the ubiquity of Damage 2 weapons.

 koooaei wrote:
To be fair, CML doesn't cost like 2 missile launchers and isn't supposed to be like two.

The CML costs exactly twice the points a Missile Launcher does. For the last three editions the CML has been two Missile Launchers squeezed into one weapon. Now it has worse frag missiles and 36" instead of 48" range for no reason.

 Nym wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Switching them to 1 wound 3+/6++ but taking saves on 2D6 does give them a massive boost verses small arms...

Terminators are already very good vs Small arms. Read the thread.

Their problem comes from the ubiquity of Damage 2 weapons.

Yea, but his math makes it so plasma takes a lot more effort.

2.7 shots from plasma currently. Under his system it would be 6.9.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Nym wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Switching them to 1 wound 3+/6++ but taking saves on 2D6 does give them a massive boost verses small arms...

Terminators are already very good vs Small arms. Read the thread.

Their problem comes from the ubiquity of Damage 2 weapons.

Yea, but his math makes it so plasma takes a lot more effort.

2.7 shots from plasma currently. Under his system it would be 6.9.

So it causes one problem while solving another? Though I might just be biased towards my idea of making just take 1 less damage to a min of 1 since it doesn't give them more durability vs 1d.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
To be fair, CML doesn't cost like 2 missile launchers and isn't supposed to be like two.

The CML costs exactly twice the points a Missile Launcher does. For the last three editions the CML has been two Missile Launchers squeezed into one weapon. Now it has worse frag missiles and 36" instead of 48" range for no reason.

I might confuse it with the launcher scarabs have.

 koooaei wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
To be fair, CML doesn't cost like 2 missile launchers and isn't supposed to be like two.

The CML costs exactly twice the points a Missile Launcher does. For the last three editions the CML has been two Missile Launchers squeezed into one weapon. Now it has worse frag missiles and 36" instead of 48" range for no reason.

I might confuse it with the launcher scarabs have.

At least Scarabs aren't completely terrible just like with Blightlords. They still need adjustment with stats (as I firmly believe all Terminators besides the Grey Knight Troops need to be BS/WS2+) but at least they don't terribly hamper you if you use them.

Scarabs are relatively decent. Of course they fold to plasma but at least tsons have easy access to reliable -1 to hit and +1 inv magic.

 koooaei wrote:
Scarabs are relatively decent. Of course they fold to plasma but at least tsons have easy access to reliable -1 to hit and +1 inv magic.

Believe me, Scarabs are not decent at all, and Glamour of Tzeentch (the -1 to hit power) is far from reliable. I think it's probably the power I've failed to cast the most, and I only use it on Ahriman (+1 to cast). For an unfathomable reason, it has WC7 while Miasma of Pestilence, which is the same power but with MORE range, has WC6....

My Scarabs basically die the turn after they drop, every single game. I've tried proxying them as Obliterators and guess what ? They survive longer, cost less and deal (a lot) more damage.

 Nym wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Scarabs are relatively decent. Of course they fold to plasma but at least tsons have easy access to reliable -1 to hit and +1 inv magic.

Believe me, Scarabs are not decent at all, and Glamour of Tzeentch (the -1 to hit power) is far from reliable. I think it's probably the power I've failed to cast the most, and I only use it on Ahriman (+1 to cast). For an unfathomable reason, it has WC7 while Miasma of Pestilence, which is the same power but with MORE range, has WC6....

My Scarabs basically die the turn after they drop, every single game. I've tried proxying them as Obliterators and guess what ? They survive longer, cost less and deal (a lot) more damage.

The lack of consistentcy between codexes infuriates me and my only advice is to not think about it

 Nym wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Scarabs are relatively decent. Of course they fold to plasma but at least tsons have easy access to reliable -1 to hit and +1 inv magic.

Believe me, Scarabs are not decent at all, and Glamour of Tzeentch (the -1 to hit power) is far from reliable. I think it's probably the power I've failed to cast the most, and I only use it on Ahriman (+1 to cast). For an unfathomable reason, it has WC7 while Miasma of Pestilence, which is the same power but with MORE range, has WC6....

My Scarabs basically die the turn after they drop, every single game. I've tried proxying them as Obliterators and guess what ? They survive longer, cost less and deal (a lot) more damage.

I don't need trust - i've played with scarabs. They fit tsons. Especially in mid-sized games of around 1000-1500 pts. Not in super-competitive metas of course. But ap2 bolters with votlw is nice. Not as scary as slaanesh plasma termies but cheaper.

 Nym wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Scarabs are relatively decent. Of course they fold to plasma but at least tsons have easy access to reliable -1 to hit and +1 inv magic.

Believe me, Scarabs are not decent at all, and Glamour of Tzeentch (the -1 to hit power) is far from reliable. I think it's probably the power I've failed to cast the most, and I only use it on Ahriman (+1 to cast). For an unfathomable reason, it has WC7 while Miasma of Pestilence, which is the same power but with MORE range, has WC6....

My Scarabs basically die the turn after they drop, every single game. I've tried proxying them as Obliterators and guess what ? They survive longer, cost less and deal (a lot) more damage.

Uh, well, of course they live longer. You're not dropping them right next to the enemy. If you're using Ahriman then there is no difference in difficulty when compared to Miasma. So you must fail Miasma just as often, right?

I think the main problem with two fold, the new AP system really degrades the value of there 2+ save, paired with how prolific plasma is right now.

Plasma has always been there to kill termies. In 5 it was mostly replaced by melta because of parking lots and in 7-th it wasn't as useful to someone with access to grav. If something, termies are around as durable vs plasma as they used to be, however plasma is much more common. As for HB, 2-wound termies with 3+ save are absolutely identical to 1-wound termies with 2+ save. Previous ap3 weapons that are mostly ap-2 now are probably the only weapon range that has become better vs termies. But there are not many weapons with ap-2.

Termies HAVE become better vs anti-infantry weapons without ap. 2 times more durable, in fact. So, that's what people really asked for, didn't they?

No they asked for useful termies. And helping them vs AP0 weapons isn't any use if they at the same time basically flood the game with plasma.

 koooaei wrote:
Plasma has always been there to kill termies. In 5 it was mostly replaced by melta because of parking lots and in 7-th it wasn't as useful to someone with access to grav. If something, termies are around as durable vs plasma as they used to be, however plasma is much more common. As for HB, 2-wound termies with 3+ save are absolutely identical to 1-wound termies with 2+ save. Previous ap3 weapons that are mostly ap-2 now are probably the only weapon range that has become better vs termies. But there are not many weapons with ap-2.

Termies HAVE become better vs anti-infantry weapons without ap. 2 times more durable, in fact. So, that's what people really asked for, didn't they?

I don't mind Plasma being good against terminators. But right now I think it's just too good against everything.

Plasma wounds them on 2s now, so it is better than before. It's also useful against tanks when you compare it to melta, and useful against regular infantry when you compare it to flamers. And there are so many sources of rerolls of 1 that it becomes the clear winner when it comes to what special weapon to take, since it isn't bad at anything.

With the exception of Plasma and similar weapons that can do high rate of fire AP 3, terminators are fairly durable.

jcd386 wrote:

Plasma wounds them on 2s now, so it is better than before.

It used to wound them on 2+ too. s7 vs t4 was 2+.