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meleti wrote:

What I mean is that you have to factor in the infantry guns because that's a big part of what the Venom does as an open-topped vehicle.

No. You factor those guns into the Infantry squad - not their transport.

Furthermore, having infantry shoot out of the Venom is not something you can rely on. What if you're transporting Wyches? Or Incubi?

You can't just assume that the passengers will make up for the Venom's deficiency in firepower.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Chippen wrote:
Venoms are a bit undercosted for sure with the addition of Kabal obsessions. Coming from Index we needed either a major boost to splinter fire and its platforms, or a big cost reduction. We got both. Other than that? No major issues. Maybe make Dissies the same cost as Lances and then limit Agents of Vect to once per player turn.

Really? Even with Obsessions, the Venom seems absolutely pathetic in terms of firepower.

This and the fact that they just have a transport capacity of 5 dudes. So 1+ HQs or a 5 man squad. That's it. And poison is not as effective as S4 weapons.

65 points for that this is fair if not a bit too much, I'd rate venoms with a 6/10 or 6.5/10, definitely not undercosted.

Harlequins' starweaver is a very good transport and it costs 99 points. Better shooting, better transport capacity, way more resilient. The difference of 34 points is real, venoms can't get a points hike and cost like starweavers or very close to them.

Agents of Vect is another thing that is highly overrated as well IMHO, I usually play with 3 detachments including two battallions so 14 CPs plus additional 0-2 thanks to the Prophets of Flesh trait and some additional CPs generated by the Black Heart trait but I basically never used that stratagem more than a single time per game. Sometimes I don't even use it in the entire game. The stratagem is certainly useful but 3CPs are a lot and we have tons of other effetive stratagems, not to mention that 1CP per turn should be invested in getting a better result on a D6 damage weapon.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

meleti wrote:

What I mean is that you have to factor in the infantry guns because that's a big part of what the Venom does as an open-topped vehicle.

No. You factor those guns into the Infantry squad - not their transport.

Furthermore, having infantry shoot out of the Venom is not something you can rely on. What if you're transporting Wyches? Or Incubi?

You can't just assume that the passengers will make up for the Venom's deficiency in firepower.

Clearly we’re just going to disagree on how to evaluate transports.

Venoms are ok for specific units. Those units would be incubi, archon's retinue (but not an archon) and trueborn.

Incubi are not so hot in only 5 man groups but if you spam em might be ok-ish. Trueborn are great.

My issue with venoms is that last game they died so easily vs shooting even with the -1 to hit on each of them and this was vs nids. Of course that's because he got first turn and sniped them immediately.

If i had to say the big boost to venoms actually more often will come from the fact they don't have anywhere near as big a profile as most of our vehicles (dunno why it has to be so big on most units) and therefore can hide behind buildings easier.

So I had a good bit of fun with my Red Grief yesterday. My tantalus was a blast to play with a 32" advance and even though it didn't really do too much, it did it's job by disrupting and delivering the payload of wyches and succubi deep into enemy lines. Reavers did their thing with disrupting shooting and giving the wyches time to get out and wipe up as well as some key shots from their blasters and killing things off in assaults with grav talons.

All in all, it was a speedy as hell list and was a blast to play.

So guys i've been finding my 3 venoms with trueborn get popped a lot rather quickly. They only have shredder trueborn but still it's rather obnoxious how easily they die. I heard you have to either spam them or take none of them.

I'm also unsure of what to use.

Any close combat units tend to move quickly, advance and then charge. The only things we have that can really out-run them are reavers and our flyers. Other than that the shoot and scoot or shoot-melee-scoot ability of our army seems to be at almost nothing. Perhaps i should have more melee units to prepare for the inevitable melee even if it'll end badly it may hold up the enemy a little.

As far as the Knights go i think i may or may not need haywire (freaking 4+ inv. saves) but the problem with that is haywire is mostly on scourge which die quickly and has a hard limit at 3 units due to the current rules. The thing though is most of the dark eldar stuff is very fragile so i should probably just go for alpha strike anyway even if a void raven would last longer.

Void ravens are also an interesting idea. They're harder to hurt (at least for dark eldar), void mines seem ok and void lances have good strength. Also they can't be held up in melee, they're really fast and non-flyer melee units can't even hurt them with melee.

Are you using reavers? They help your other stuff survive cause they are great spoilers.

Also if you make them obsidian viel you can shoot your shredders at 18" (I think I don't use shredders.)

Twelve inch range on the Shredder is a huge drawback, it pretty much guarantees that you're going to get charged (and Venoms 100% do not want to get charged) unless you've nuked everything nearby first. That tactic is actually what I'd recommend - use our mobility to try and focus fire on specific parts of the opponent's army, and make sure that it gets wiped out. Tricky if they clump up, though.

So new issues. I think the shredders are sort of ok but as i said we may need to either shoot long range for anti tank/anti monster or alpha strike the crap out of things. With deep strike at turn 2 this isn't super easy so i may have to gun-line and spam warriors for my anti tank. I could deep strike in some blaster warriors through the webway as well as deep strike blaster scourge but other than that i think the safest bet is going dark lance spam....again. At least dark lances are needed for anti tank and anti monster.

I am thinking the 3 units per unit card with DS nerf hurts us a ton and helps guard and others considerably more.

You know honestly i may just take dark lance scourge squads in the mean time with 10 man scourge teams. Blasters are fine but each squad will get absolutely destroyed in a turn and need to be DS'ed in (so you have to go turn 2) but dark lances should be able to hit from a distance and don't need DS turn one.

What Sucubus are people running?

I have cult of strife with the triple whip and attack drugs. I get 9 attacks on the charge. With exploding 6s warlord trait. Last game she wiped a unit of 5 scurges in a round. But next round she ended up getting 21 hits on a talos (t3 exploding 5s and 6s) and did 1 wound (maube 2). Thats much more normal for her, double digit hits, but once the wounds and saves are done its only a couple wounds on the target.

I am thinking of going Red grief for the blood glave. I need to decide if its worth giving up 20 attacks (from the rest of the unit. 10 wytches 6 or 9 bikes.) for 4 strenght 6 d3 damahe hits. Advance and charge would have helped in 1 game out of the last 7. And it means I can wingover strike and still charge with my bikes (1 unit 6 or 9) but if I do that the spliter rifles don't fire and they should be in rapid fire range.

Anyway. Thats the delima.

What sucubus are the rest of you running.

Headlss wrote:
What Sucubus are people running?

I only ever run a Red Grief Succibus with the Blood Glaive (and usually the +1A trait).

IMO she's the only one who gets a decent weapon.

I agree about the weapon but to get iy I have to give up 15 or 20 attacks on my wytches and reavers combined. No there are a few circumstances that the advance and charge will be worth it on my reavers, so call that a draw. But its really not going to help the wytches.

So are 10 wytch attacks worth 4 (or 5) blood glave attacks.

Regale me with stories of what a bad bitch your succubus is.

IMO turn 2 charge is better than getting shot off the table or turn 3 with more attacks.

To me Wyches are cheap fodder for tarpitting and getting into combat asap and i only run them as RG,

My Succubus are Net/Impalers at this point.

I usually just use leilith and a relic whip succubus

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
I usually just use leilith and a relic whip succubus

Agree with this, if you must run Cults.

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

dark angel a ton
harlequins, 2000 points
dark eldar 2000 points

Steve, Dark Angels, Harlies, and Drukhari? Are you the Mountain Miniatures Gaming guy?

 Chippen wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
I usually just use leilith and a relic whip succubus

Agree with this, if you must run Cults.

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

dark angel a ton
harlequins, 2000 points
dark eldar 2000 points

Steve, Dark Angels, Harlies, and Drukhari? Are you the Mountain Miniatures Gaming guy?

Nope.
That reminds me, I gotta update that list, I've gotten a lot more stuff since then

Headlss wrote:
I agree about the weapon but to get iy I have to give up 15 or 20 attacks on my wytches and reavers combined. No there are a few circumstances that the advance and charge will be worth it on my reavers, so call that a draw. But its really not going to help the wytches.

So are 10 wytch attacks worth 4 (or 5) blood glave attacks.

Regale me with stories of what a bad bitch your succubus is.

Well, for starters, I rarely ever bother with Wyches. Mostly I just have 3 units of Reavers plus a Succubus who was too stupid to bring her own Jetbike.

Hence, she instead rides in a Venom with an Archon and 3 Lhamaeans.

It was meant to be a suicide unit - something I could throw at a strong, non-vehicle unit in my opponent's army and hopefully do a lot of damage. Even if it dies, it's not a huge issue because my Warlord Archon is elsewhere, sniping characters with the Soul Seeker.

Anyway, the unit has been pretty damn effective and rarely ever dies (the only time it did was when I left out the Succubus). The Succubus' attacks are pretty nasty, especially when backed up by 3 Lhamaeans doing Mortal Wounds.

Reaver outrider detachment, you must be running red grief. Do ypu leave her bare bones or soup her up?

Headlss wrote:
Reaver outrider detachment, you must be running red grief. Do ypu leave her bare bones or soup her up?

She usually just gets the Blood Glaive and a Splinter Pistol.

(I wouldn't object to giving her a Blast Pistol, but I rarely have the points.)

No warlord trait? A 3 up invul seems good for 1 cp. Or dubble drugs.

Headlss wrote:
No warlord trait? A 3 up invul seems good for 1 cp. Or dubble drugs.

I might consider it if I was using Haemonculus Covens as well. However, for a character who's meant to be suicidal anyway, I don't think the 3++ is a good enough investment for a valuable command point.

Besides, she's survived well enough without it so far.

Headlss wrote:
What Sucubus are people running?

I've been enjoying running duel Cursed Blade Succubi one with the special whip one with net and impaler, trait and drugs dependent on match up. Though they and the whyches are often relegated to mop up duty on turn 2/3 once the grotesques and ravagers do their thing. I really want to try out Strife but I just don't see how its near as good as Blade or Grief.

Are you guys finding the wyches often overkill their opponent?

So, I'm going to be facing 2k of Death Guard at my LGS this Sunday. I have only faced them once before with my Sisters of Battle, and got murdered by Mortarion, Blight Drones and Poxwalkers. I have yet to face them with my Drukhari. I have no idea what my opponent will be bringing, save that it will be an "experimental" list.

I intend on bringing, roughly:

FLAYED SKULL BATTALION:
Archon- blaster, Djinn Blade, Hatred Eternal- 93
Archon- blaster, huskblade- 93
5 Kabalite Warriors- blaster- 47
5 Kabalite Warriors- blaster- 47
5 Kabalite Warriors- blaster- 47
Sslyth- 27
8 Mandrakes- 128
5 Scourges- 4 blasters- 128
Razorwing Jetfighter- splinter cannon, disintegrators- 145
Venom- dual splinter cannons- 75
Venom- dual splinter cannons- 75
Venom- dual splinter cannons- 75
Ravager- 3 disintegrator cannons- 123
Ravager- 3 disintegrator cannons- 123
Razorwing Jetfighter- disintegrator cannons- 145

CURSED BLADE BATTALION:
Succubus- archite glaive, blast pistol, Stimm Addict, Adrenalight, Serpentin- 60
Succubus- shardnet and impaler, Traitor's Embrace, Hypex- 55
7 Wyches- shardnet and impaler, Hekatrix w. power sword, Grave Lotus- 64
7 Wyches- shardnet and impaler, Hekatrix w. power sword, Splintermind- 64
20 Wyches- 2 shardnets and impalers, Hekatrix w. power sword, Adrenalight- 166
6 Reaver Jetbikes- 2 blasters, 2 grav talons, Painbringer- 154
Raider- disintegrator- 80
Raider- disintegrator- 80

PROPHETS OF FLESH PATROL:
Haemonculus- stinger pistol,, electrocorrosive whip, Diabolic Soothsayer- 81
5 Wracks- 45

Total: 1945

Total CP: 13 (-1 for Alliance of Agony, -1 for extra relics, +d3 for Diabolic Soothsayer)

My idea is, chars join the Wych Raiders, Wych blob comes in by deep strike, everything else shoots up big nasty thigns while Wyches either tie up Daemon Princes, etc, or try to kill off hordes. My main questions are:

1. What's generally better vs Death Guard, disintegrators or lances?
2. Should I go with Red Grief on the Wyches instead, given that I included Jetbikes?
And...
3. Be brutally honest: how terrible is this list vs Death Guard? What does it need? Aside from a Black Heart Ravager detachment, as I am in dire need of a third Ravager if I want to be uber competitive.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/759669.page

There is a similar list in the list fourm. He fought a death gurad army and posted the a pretty detailed report. Check it out. Then report back.

It looks good to me. I am interested to hear how the flyiers do.

Great report. Based on your game, I'm thinking that i should be thinning out the Poxies with firepower before finishing them off with Wyches, trying ro hunt down his characters where possible, and resorting to prayer vs the Bloat Drones.

I have NO idea what I'm going to do with the Reavers-- they honestly seem like a bad fit vs Death Guard. Maybe trade them and/or the Mandrakes for more Kabalites in a Raider or two? The problem is I dont have Scourges, don't have a 3rd Ravager and don't have enough blasters to run Trueborn...all of which would be very useful vs Death Guard and their crazily resilient monsters and vehicles.

Not my report, I'm the other guy in the conversation.

I love my Reavers. They take the heaviest casualties every game, but they tie something up and let the other units get in position.


Keep you big unit of wytches safe from shooting and see how your list does. You have more poison dice then he did.

You have 11 blaster,
30 discentrator (3×10)
34 splinters (×2 at close range)

Plus a few odds and ends, mandrakes and pistols.

You going to deep strike the 20 woman unit?

Headlss wrote:
Not my report, I'm the other guy in the conversation.

I love my Reavers. They take the heaviest casualties every game, but they tie something up and let the other units get in position.


Keep you big unit of wytches safe from shooting and see how your list does. You have more poison dice then he did.

You have 11 blaster,
30 discentrator (3×10)
34 splinters (×2 at close range)

Plus a few odds and ends, mandrakes and pistols.

You going to deep strike the 20 woman unit?

Yep. Part of it is I really want to test out Cursed Blade instead of the standard Red Grief, since I'll be getting rerolls to charge form turn 2 anyway, and besides which, the strength bonus should be helpful vs tough Nurgle stuff. Although I'm still potentially debating running Red Grief anyway, given that it would be better for my Reavers.

I run cult of strife. Every model gets an extra attack. I take drugs to gain the strenght. I have used the duble attack strategem twice to great effect, tripple hits on 6s (5s from turn 3) might be the best warlord trait.

That said I want to try out the other two.

Theres no money on the line is there? Run what you want not what you think is OMG THE BESTZ. Report back to Camorgha, let us know how it went.

I think nugle stuff is gross but I've recently conquered a coven, and they are always looking for new taxidermy projects. If you bring back any slaves I will buy 'em from you.

DSing a Wych blob is likely suicide. 50% chance to fail their charge with a command re-roll and they will not withstand any ranged attacks.
It also locks you out of Screaming Jets, which is really the only way DE have of protecting Ravagers etc on turn 1.

All that said, if you think it will be entertaining, then go for it

Has anyone had any luck with an (almost) entirely coven army?

Whenever I start adding coven detachments, I find myself just wanting to add more They feel a bit more nurgly, with very sturdy but heavy hitting units walking up the board. Those kinds of lists feel like they just want even more of the same, for target saturation. Faster gunboats or whatnot just feel like they would get shot down as the only more fragile targets.
'
Thinking something like
Urien
Heami
3x5 wracks
6x2 Grots
3x Talos
~1000 points.

Or dropping the wracks for just more grots or talos. Just march em up the board and watch the enemy weep. You could even do something silly like 1x Chronos, Urien, 3x7 Grots or Urien+9x Talos. Kinda inflexible but super sturdy.