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Headlss wrote:
Sceaming jets is the wrong strategem for close combat. You dismount at the beginning of the movement phase and screaming jets come in at the end. So you have to wait a whole nother turn.

Web way deep strike if you you want attack.

That's what i thought but then my vehicles won't be safe. Guess i choose one or the other huh. I was thinking target saturation would prevent that being an issue but maybe not.

If you want to be safe cower in the metal boxes like a Marine. Or give up your deams of glory and join my Kabal, I can always use another scullion.

Headlss wrote:
If you want to be safe cower in the metal boxes like a Marine. Or give up your deams of glory and join my Kabal, I can always use another scullion.

The issue is my trueborn in venoms would be shot down before they got to do anything probably. I am wondering if shredders are worth it anymore. The damage is good but i'm not sure how cost effective it is. Most of our shooting units only have about a turn to live (or at least in my meta). I think a lot of people are spamming anti-tank now that Knights are a thing and sadly that makes us want to take a lot less vehicles or saving them for 'screaming jets' so they don't all die at once.

I usually set up out of line of sight with most of my stuff. If I get first turn great, If I don't they end up shooting my jet bikes at long range, I'll overdose them for T6 amd maybe tell them to dodge for -1 to hit. They usually live long enough to get their charge.

Whats your table look like? Is there enough los blocking terrain?

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Headlss wrote:
Sceaming jets is the wrong strategem for close combat. You dismount at the beginning of the movement phase and screaming jets come in at the end. So you have to wait a whole nother turn.

Web way deep strike if you you want attack.

That's what i thought but then my vehicles won't be safe. Guess i choose one or the other huh. I was thinking target saturation would prevent that being an issue but maybe not.

Technically you disembark before the vehicle moves, not at the beginning of the movement phase.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Headlss wrote:
If you want to be safe cower in the metal boxes like a Marine. Or give up your deams of glory and join my Kabal, I can always use another scullion.

The issue is my trueborn in venoms would be shot down before they got to do anything probably. I am wondering if shredders are worth it anymore. The damage is good but i'm not sure how cost effective it is. Most of our shooting units only have about a turn to live (or at least in my meta). I think a lot of people are spamming anti-tank now that Knights are a thing and sadly that makes us want to take a lot less vehicles or saving them for 'screaming jets' so they don't all die at once.

Well just get more, 10 venoms with 50 kabals is only 950pts, thats still 1k for Ravagers/Archons/Fliers

If only i had that kind of money i probably would.

Currently i'm just trying to focus on buying more grotesques as soon as they become available again.

Talos and flesh eaters. Makes a great conversion. I'll post a picture when I get them painted.

I'm thinking if i do reavers again for fighting it might be 'cult of strife' and then give them combat drugs +1 for +2 attacks total. Could be nice since they still have an ok charge range even without the advance and charge boost of red grief. That or i just go for grotesques.

I still think i'll go grotesques anyway but one more try with cult of strife reavers might be ok. It's probably stupid to try but why not.

I am thinking of trying mass Talos (9) with Prophets of flesh, I have used 3 of them with Urien a few times and it worked very well vs Guard with a Knight as support. They would be supported by Ravagers / Warrior Squads of the Black Heart. Anyone try this kind of list?

IMO 9 is too many. After you take 9 Talos, Urien, 3 Ravagers, 2 Archons, there is very little points available to warriors in venoms.

I have found 6 to be the sweet spot.

im not a De player but i would know why De didn't make the cut at BAO, they was a force to rekon with until IK's start showing in great number, are IK's which made De undeperform? thx for answering.

Manfried wrote:IMO 9 is too many. After you take 9 Talos, Urien, 3 Ravagers, 2 Archons, there is very little points available to warriors in venoms.

I have found 6 to be the sweet spot.

It can work and be fun, they are Fly and move 8, can move and fire as well so its not like they wont be in combat turn 2, they can also have Anti-Tank weapons, coming in at 98pts, taking a Urien with a Spearhead isnt to hard, you can even still have a BH Battalion for CP's and AoV strat.

blackmage wrote:im not a De player but i would know why De didn't make the cut at BAO, they was a force to rekon with until IK's start showing in great number, are IK's which made De undeperform? thx for answering.

They are very strong, but i think DE can still easly win, just needs to change how DE plays, ally Doomseer and JinkxLocks makes a huge difference. but over all IK book is IMO the strongest codex now, there are so many good things you can do with Imperial Allies, if they couldnt ally then it would be a middle tier army and well balanced.

IK has the 18" 3D6 crazy flamer, the ignore invul missile, Armigers (OMG so cheap lol), good melee knights now, etc.. they just need CP's and guard gives them that AND very cheap bodies.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

They are very strong, but i think DE can still easly win, just needs to change how DE plays, ally Doomseer and JinkxLocks makes a huge difference. but over all IK book is IMO the strongest codex now, there are so many good things you can do with Imperial Allies, if they couldnt ally then it would be a middle tier army and well balanced.

In other words, Dark Eldar can't easily win, but Eldar Soup can.

 vipoid wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

They are very strong, but i think DE can still easly win, just needs to change how DE plays, ally Doomseer and JinkxLocks makes a huge difference. but over all IK book is IMO the strongest codex now, there are so many good things you can do with Imperial Allies, if they couldnt ally then it would be a middle tier army and well balanced.

In other words, Dark Eldar can't easily win, but Eldar Soup can.

This is 8th, everyone uses allies, if you are not then you are playing at a disadvantage, making 1 less save/invul and re-roll wounds is amazing.

If you want pure DE, then just take HWB's, they are cheap and easy to get 12-16 of them, can easily take out 1 knight in 1 turn with them and maybe some support. Doom with HWB's against a Knight can be nasty as well.

Edit: Also having Quins can be good too, making 2 Knights -1 or -2 to hit is really easy, just take 2 Shadowseers and 2x3 Skyweavers in Outrider, it could be more fun than Farseers/warlocks

 Amishprn86 wrote:

This is 8th, everyone uses allies

Demonstrably untrue. It also doesn't change the point I made.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
if you are not then you are playing at a disadvantage, making 1 less save/invul and re-roll wounds is amazing.

Sure. But in this case you're not winning with Dark Eldar, you're winning with Eldar Soup.

To claim that they are somehow the same thing is outright disingenuous.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

If you want pure DE, then just take HWB's, they are cheap and easy to get 12-16 of them, can easily take out 1 knight in 1 turn with them and maybe some support. Doom with HWB's against a Knight can be nasty as well.

Edit: Also having Quins can be good too, making 2 Knights -1 or -2 to hit is really easy, just take 2 Shadowseers and 2x3 Skyweavers in Outrider, it could be more fun than Farseers/warlocks

I think it's quite telling that you mentioned one DE weapon and then immediately had to look to allies for support and for other anti-knight tech.

competitive lists are soup... hardly to see a top list made from just one codex, that happens very seldom, this is the direction GW wanted.

 vipoid wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

This is 8th, everyone uses allies

Demonstrably untrue. It also doesn't change the point I made.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
if you are not then you are playing at a disadvantage, making 1 less save/invul and re-roll wounds is amazing.

Sure. But in this case you're not winning with Dark Eldar, you're winning with Eldar Soup.

To claim that they are somehow the same thing is outright disingenuous.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

If you want pure DE, then just take HWB's, they are cheap and easy to get 12-16 of them, can easily take out 1 knight in 1 turn with them and maybe some support. Doom with HWB's against a Knight can be nasty as well.

Edit: Also having Quins can be good too, making 2 Knights -1 or -2 to hit is really easy, just take 2 Shadowseers and 2x3 Skyweavers in Outrider, it could be more fun than Farseers/warlocks

I think it's quite telling that you mentioned one DE weapon and then immediately had to look to allies for support and for other anti-knight tech.

Its a mechanic of the game now, and if you dont want to play with it then fine you are at the disadvantage, DE does fine vs most armies without soup, but DE has some major weakness, CWE and Quins can fill those weakness. Playing Pure doesnt matter anymore, stop being defensive about it, if you want to play pure thats up to you.

Remember my post was about fighting the top army right now, one that DE isnt best against (oddly we used to be and now we are not), we are talking about an army that is destroying most other armies atm and they kinda counter DE well, Melee doesnt really work against them and neither does out poison weapons, if we take our normal type of TAC list, a good 600pts will do nothing to them, even more so if you take extra Venoms/Melee units like some of these Venom spam players.


If you DONT want to ally in at all, then just take either enough DL/DC to kill them, or enough bodies to win via objectives like CSM players are, you really cant split your forces up to much against IK's, you must kill the one that will do the most damage to you 1st, if they are Armiger spaming then kill them 1 by 1, open up holes in their army aka safe spots for you to stay and move. If you are playing the need to take TAC, then remove a unit or 2 and add in a unit of 2 that can help handle IK's.

Question for DE players. My regular opponent is a master of eldar soup and last few games he's been making ravagers -1 to hit? Is there some rule they have or aura (including craftworld and harlies) that makes this happen as I can't find it in the book. Thanks!

 buddha wrote:
Question for DE players. My regular opponent is a master of eldar soup and last few games he's been making ravagers -1 to hit? Is there some rule they have or aura (including craftworld and harlies) that makes this happen as I can't find it in the book. Thanks!

Only 1 stratagem effects them in the DE book, Harlequins -1 to hit only effects Harlequins units (the 2 powers and stratagem) and the CWE ones again can only effect the CWE units.

Its easy to get 1 Ravager with -1 to hit, after that its impossible.

CWE can however let all friend units Re-roll wounds, make an enemy unit -1 to wound/ -t to hit and -1 to saves vs CWE and Friendly units, also enemy units dont get cover.

Harlequins can make up to -3 to hit via powers/stratagems for Harlequin units, and most units already have -1 to hit, so they can easily get up to -4 to hit. Same for CWE with Alaitoc.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Question for DE players. My regular opponent is a master of eldar soup and last few games he's been making ravagers -1 to hit? Is there some rule they have or aura (including craftworld and harlies) that makes this happen as I can't find it in the book. Thanks!

Only 1 stratagem effects them in the DE book, Harlequins -1 to hit only effects Harlequins units (the 2 powers and stratagem) and the CWE ones again can only effect the CWE units.

Its easy to get 1 Ravager with -1 to hit, after that its impossible.

CWE can however let all friend units Re-roll wounds, make an enemy unit -1 to wound/ -t to hit and -1 to saves vs CWE and Friendly units, also enemy units dont get cover.

Harlequins can make up to -3 to hit via powers/stratagems for Harlequin units, and most units already have -1 to hit, so they can easily get up to -4 to hit. Same for CWE with Alaitoc.

Much appreciated, thank you.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

They are very strong, but i think DE can still easly win, just needs to change how DE plays, ally Doomseer and JinkxLocks makes a huge difference. but over all IK book is IMO the strongest codex now, there are so many good things you can do with Imperial Allies, if they couldnt ally then it would be a middle tier army and well balanced.

In other words, Dark Eldar can't easily win, but Eldar Soup can.

This is 8th, everyone uses allies, if you are not then you are playing at a disadvantage, making 1 less save/invul and re-roll wounds is amazing.

If you want pure DE, then just take HWB's, they are cheap and easy to get 12-16 of them, can easily take out 1 knight in 1 turn with them and maybe some support. Doom with HWB's against a Knight can be nasty as well.

Edit: Also having Quins can be good too, making 2 Knights -1 or -2 to hit is really easy, just take 2 Shadowseers and 2x3 Skyweavers in Outrider, it could be more fun than Farseers/warlocks

Ugh a bunch of people at my store are doing Soup even if just a little here and there. I'm only going pure dark eldar. I think i need to come to an understanding with my opponents that if i don't play Soup then they shouldn't either.

Haywire blasters?! Yeah they're decent on every army except nids. The thing with them is they shine vs knights and maybe t8 vehicles or else something with invulnerable saves. My issue with them is if an opponent has no vehicles they kinda can't do much of anything. My 2nd last game was a pure infantry list with lots of anti-tank. Even my dark lances were not needed but haywire would've just been absolutely terrible.

I feel like if i did manage to do a Soup list (which i'd rather not do) i'd probably take harlequinns. Harleys aren't exactly a full army either in the way eldar or dark eldar are.

 blackmage wrote:
competitive lists are soup... hardly to see a top list made from just one codex, that happens very seldom, this is the direction GW wanted.

That's awful. Maybe that's why i was on such a losing streak. I was fighting quite a few soup players even if some were only limited soup. I'm actually pretty disgusted by this reality.

Haywire Blasters actually work completely fine as anti-infantry weapons. They're not great at it, but they're far better than they really have a right to be considering that they're meant to be specialist anti-vehicle weapons.

 Burnage wrote:
Haywire Blasters actually work completely fine as anti-infantry weapons. They're not great at it, but they're far better than they really have a right to be considering that they're meant to be specialist anti-vehicle weapons.

Yeah... I'm totally thinking of adding a unit of 4x HWB Scourge in my list. Probably a unit held in reserve for T2 deepstrike. ANd... they're totally not useless at infantry.

EDIT: question about the HWBs... do you roll a D3 for the # of shots for each equipped HWB model? Or, just roll one D3 for the unit, then multiply for each equipped model?

 whembly wrote:

Yeah... I'm totally thinking of adding a unit of 4x HWB Scourge in my list. Probably a unit held in reserve for T2 deepstrike. ANd... they're totally not useless at infantry.

EDIT: question about the HWBs... do you roll a D3 for the # of shots for each equipped HWB model? Or, just roll one D3 for the unit, then multiply for each equipped model?

You roll a die for each model, so if you have a unit of 4x HWB with 1 Solarite, you'd roll 4D3.


Haywire Scourge are the hotness. You can get some good usage out of Fire and Fade, you drop them near a ruin, shoot, then Fire and Fade through the wall and they can't be touched. Take two of them IMO.
Against Tyranids, use them to kill the screens so you can tie up or get rid of the Hive Guard. Or counter-drop if they're doing some Genestealers turn 1 charge stuff. I've used them as a speed bump for Genestealers and not lost any sweat over it. Drop your Scourge 4 inches in front of whatever the Genestealers want to charge.

I've been toying with the idea of switching from a mixed kabal/coven list to a pure coven list. What is the community experience with running 6+ talos engines and grotesque blobs? at what point do you start to see diminishing returns?

 Chippen wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Yeah... I'm totally thinking of adding a unit of 4x HWB Scourge in my list. Probably a unit held in reserve for T2 deepstrike. ANd... they're totally not useless at infantry.

EDIT: question about the HWBs... do you roll a D3 for the # of shots for each equipped HWB model? Or, just roll one D3 for the unit, then multiply for each equipped model?

You roll a die for each model, so if you have a unit of 4x HWB with 1 Solarite, you'd roll 4D3.


Haywire Scourge are the hotness. You can get some good usage out of Fire and Fade, you drop them near a ruin, shoot, then Fire and Fade through the wall and they can't be touched. Take two of them IMO.
Against Tyranids, use them to kill the screens so you can tie up or get rid of the Hive Guard. Or counter-drop if they're doing some Genestealers turn 1 charge stuff. I've used them as a speed bump for Genestealers and not lost any sweat over it. Drop your Scourge 4 inches in front of whatever the Genestealers want to charge.

hard in a normal table completely disappear from LOS and also then lot of no los weapons.

How is there an issue with nids as de? Take standard 10 man warrior squad, put a blaster in it and a splinter cannon, throw it in a raider, and enjoy. Poison weapons make nids cry. Oh, your t7 with that massive monster? My basic guys, which i have 60 of, hit on 3's and wound on 4's... and was cheaper.

Personally i love de at this point. Everything has a use, and everything seems so cheap. I never care when i lose stuff because it was cheap and i have more. Also you killed my ravagers? Lovely... you didnt shoot those talos and scourges and bikes and raiders with warriors....

 blackmage wrote:
im not a De player but i would know why De didn't make the cut at BAO, they was a force to rekon with until IK's start showing in great number, are IK's which made De undeperform? thx for answering.

All one needs to do is read through the ITC champions missions and you will understand why Knights are dominating. The missions are so unbalanced. Everything is titled toward killing things each turn and worse yet, killing MORE then your opponent for bonus points. This makes MSU armies weak, and armies with 4-6 large knights incredibly busted. If DE draw a 6 knight list they basically auto lose unless they are playing a terrible opponent that clocks out somehow.

The other factor is how armies are classified in ITC, because so many people soup it up, unless DE are the larger detachment the army won't be considered of that faction. If I heard correctly their were alot of armies that had craftworld eldar with a kabal spearhead for example in order to unlock ravager spam and Agents of Vect.

Mostly it's the missions though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

vindicare0412 wrote:
I've been toying with the idea of switching from a mixed kabal/coven list to a pure coven list. What is the community experience with running 6+ talos engines and grotesque blobs? at what point do you start to see diminishing returns?

I own 22 grots and 5 talos total plus 30 wrack in case the ever stop sucking lol.

Found immense success with them combined with kabal but less so pure. Against certain matchups going all in on prophets of flesh will straight up troll them, just murderize them but the issue comes once you start drawing fast armies that also fly. Especially the mirror match, venom spam for example will flat out table a coven army. It's too easy to run a small 5 man kabal unit in front of your advance to movement block and just keep shooting turn after turn.

That said, depending on your meta a pure coven list can be quite the foil. In the end you will have more fun however if you pick two styles. Generally Kabal is the perfect mate since cult does the same stuff as coven but frankly worse. Cult get speed at the cost of punch and durability which isn't worth it. Coven really need the range support. You can always supplement that with scourge mandrakes and FW however. But those units are expensive and you want cheap objective grabbers. Kabalytes are the cheapest.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
im not a De player but i would know why De didn't make the cut at BAO, they was a force to rekon with until IK's start showing in great number, are IK's which made De undeperform? thx for answering.

All one needs to do is read through the ITC champions missions and you will understand why Knights are dominating. The missions are so unbalanced. Everything is titled toward killing things each turn and worse yet, killing MORE then your opponent for bonus points. This makes MSU armies weak, and armies with 4-6 large knights incredibly busted. If DE draw a 6 knight list they basically auto lose unless they are playing a terrible opponent that clocks out somehow.

The other factor is how armies are classified in ITC, because so many people soup it up, unless DE are the larger detachment the army won't be considered of that faction. If I heard correctly their were alot of armies that had craftworld eldar with a kabal spearhead for example in order to unlock ravager spam and Agents of Vect.

Mostly it's the missions though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

vindicare0412 wrote:
I've been toying with the idea of switching from a mixed kabal/coven list to a pure coven list. What is the community experience with running 6+ talos engines and grotesque blobs? at what point do you start to see diminishing returns?

I own 22 grots and 5 talos total plus 30 wrack in case the ever stop sucking lol.

Found immense success with them combined with kabal but less so pure. Against certain matchups going all in on prophets of flesh will straight up troll them, just murderize them but the issue comes once you start drawing fast armies that also fly. Especially the mirror match, venom spam for example will flat out table a coven army. It's too easy to run a small 5 man kabal unit in front of your advance to movement block and just keep shooting turn after turn.

That said, depending on your meta a pure coven list can be quite the foil. In the end you will have more fun however if you pick two styles. Generally Kabal is the perfect mate since cult does the same stuff as coven but frankly worse. Cult get speed at the cost of punch and durability which isn't worth it. Coven really need the range support. You can always supplement that with scourge mandrakes and FW however. But those units are expensive and you want cheap objective grabbers. Kabalytes are the cheapest.

I keep talking about Missions lists as well, the more we talk about it, hopefully the more people understand how tilted tournaments really are, they completely kill many types of lists and favour other types. Tournaments are NOT balanced, GW's CA/Main missions IMO are more balanced than many of these tournaments (tho local meta's you can do 5-6 turns thats a big part of it) some armies are better late game, and other better mid, while some are best early game, due to time restrictions, some armies and armies styles cant even be played.

Also, i love coven, i play them a lot, my Local they are leaps and bounds better than Venom spam. I have done Pure Coven armies (Dark Creed Supreme with Reapers and PoF for the other 1600pts) the Reapers able to snipe is just insane, and stopping units from Advancing is game changing, Late game when you need an objective (or just turn 2-3 for Mid game objective missions) stopping Advancements on 2-3 units has won me the game.